Valygar isn't very Ranger-y either, really. The only ranger thing about him is that he chooses a cabin near Imnesvale to hide in, but otherwise wants to return to Athkatla to deal with Lavok, and seemed to be living there when the wizards first came for him. Minsc seems to at least have more of a preference for animals and nature that he expresses.
Valygar is a stalker, a ranger who is "comfortable in both wilderness and urban settings. They are the spies, informants and interrogators and their mastery of stealth makes them deadly opponents." Despite this, Valygar expresses his disdain for cities many times. He doesn't speak about animals, but he goes on about the great outdoors, enjoying the open air, and being in the wilds.
Corwin on the other hand, has absolutely nothing "rangery-y" about her. She is a pure soldier. Her kit is that of the archer (that being her field of speciality), and serves the Flaming Fist in that aspect (perhaps also as a scout here and there). But to my knowledge, she doesn't exhibit any reverence for nature or the like - she is merely a duty-bound, family-orientated woman above all. One gets the impression her charm animal ability probably stems from training her household pet rather than any wilderness expertise.
Of course, the fact that she is a ranger merits her a place in the discussion, but I daresay she'd be the least popular of the lot.
Archers don't have a charm animal ability, since it's traded out for their called shot ability. And as for popularity, there's no way to find out in this poll, is there?
Power's no question, Corwin wins because Archer is simply one of the most powerful classes in the game, and there's quite a few nifty items in SOD that she can benefit from. I don't think that's supposed to be the only consideration, though.
Because of this poll, I thought I'd give Valygar a go, I usually drop him after planar sphere.
So can anybody please tell me how to maximise his profeciency? At the moment, he's pretty useless.
What gear, what weapons? What is he actually good at? I have the same problem with Minsc, always seems to get far too injured when fighting melee. I gave him celestial fury, but find him so bloody useless I keep nicking it for my charname in dodgy fights and simply move him away out of danger. If I'm lucky, he shoots a bit. Playing SCS/insane.
So I have a truck load of money, pretty far onto BG2 so pretty much every seller available. I could do more of WK if there's something there which is invaluable for him. I'd like to get him better before spellhold simply because at the moment he feels like a freeloader.
@UnderstandMouseMagic Valygar plays a lot like a backstabbing fighter/thief. He isn't a frontline fighter, but he is AMAZING as a dualwielding scout/backstabber who gets some useful spells to buff himself. Keep aggro off him and just watch him chunk enemies.
@UnderstandMouseMagic it's been mentioned, but his starting weapon is also a great weapon to use when dealing with mages- use stealth/invis ring or potion (there are 3 that I know of, including one that gives improved invis) to get close to enemy mages and he will often kill them without them every getting a spell off.
So backstabbing is the way to go then? Using his own sword?
Yeah, that's a problem, I never play that way but will have a try. Have a ton of potions, (thanks SCS) and the ring ect.
This is why you find him to be useless. That is his role. It would be akin to using Edwin as a melee fighter and then complaining he sucks.
Valygar is not a tank, he is a great damage dealer and scout. I will give you a "complete guide" here, since you asked for help.
He requires a lot of attention, in the sense that you should use him as a solo scout, so you will be using him a lot while the party stays back. He should be your most clicked-on party member. You have several options when you scout the enemy:
1) If it is a small mob, backstab the spellcaster (if none, the strongest enemy), and rush in with the rest of your guys to clean up. Sometimes with weak enemies (such as spiders) Valygar can just solo mobs and doesn't even need the party.
2) If it is a large mob, position Valygar behind the most dangerous foe (as above). Then get your party together, summon a few creatures and rush the mob. They will engage your party, and then Valygar can come out of shadows and backstab the enemy he was behind. This will force some of the enemies to go to Valygar, while most will remain engaged on your party. It means a splitting of the forces which find themselves in disarray. The rest should be easy.
3) With extremely dangerous mobs, such as Umber Hulks or Mind Flayers it is unwise to put Valygar behind enemy lines as in example #2. Just take him back and assault head on with everyone. He can be in stealth mode and work his way up to the enemy instead of being behind them initially (so he doesn't get focused and killed, as anyone would in that situation).
I can also provide you with some equipment advice, since you asked:
In my last run, my charname was a druid. This means that I got a lot of great utility items were available from the start. I allied myself with the shadow thieves, and got the anti-level drain amulet. This, in combination with Valygar's starting armour (immunity to charm/domination) meant he could single-handedly wipe out the entire crypt of Bodhi (and all future vampire encounters). Vampires could merely attack him, and they are not strong in melee combat.
In the druid grove, you can find the spear of the unicorn (+2, immune to hold). Valygar already comes specialised in spears, which then meant he could also take on any enemies without being held.
I also got the ring of regeneration from pickpocketing Ribald. This ring is more useful on him than anyone because as a scout, he will often be in danger and take a hit or two from when he comes out from the shadows after an attack.
With just these three simple items (all easily attainable within the first hour or two after leaving Irenicus' dungeon), my latest BG2 run was essentially "the adventures of Valygar," as he pretty much did everything on his own. He was immune to charm/hold/level drain and had a steady stream of regeneration. He could destroy enemy casters easily with his starting weapon (useful throughout the entire game), so he was a Swiss army knife of greatness.
Slot #1 - His starting weapon (+ another sword, like the celestial fury in his off-hand). Slot #2 - Spear of the Unicorn Slot #3 - Longbow
+ Amulet of level drain and ring of regeneration.
Switch weapons where necessary (ie, dealing with ghouls, use spear).
Now, one can argue that any fighter would be good with these, but that's not exactly true. Not every character can use all of these items (ie, fighters cannot use amulet), and only Valygar can use his own sword and armour, which are incredible useful. Valygar thus already comes inbuilt with everything he needs, and has the appropriate weapon specialisations to begin with so that these easy-to-get items compliment him far more than other characters right off the bat.
Finally, as he levels, put a third slot in two-weapon fighting style, and then get good with longswords and a crushing weapon of your choice (for certain encounters where only crushing weapons work). That's it! The complete guide to Valygar. Have fun!
I think perhaps it's too late to really use him this well. For instance, vampires, Aerie at this point can blow them to pieces or scare them away so it makes more sense to protect her from level drain. And when they are attempting to crawl up the walls in terror, they don't bother to level drain.
I will have a go with the whole stealth/backstab thing using Valygar, it is about time I learnt how to use that technique. And if he's the best, then it's something I ought to do. (my favourite class is "swashbuckler", so as you can tell, sneaking is not my forte)
I am flabbergasted at how evenly destributed the answers are. Roughly 60% of you are all heathens. HEATHENS!
At one point Minsc was my favorite character in the series. Over time, though, I find myself spending less and less time with him in my party. I tend to play the tank, so maybe his powergaming value is less to me than to others, but I also do 't care as much for his schtick like I used to.
Wouldn't playing the tank make Minsc even better? He doesn't have the Dexterity to tank, and his fondness for two-handed swords means he can stand behind you while you tank and put that natural 18/93 strength to work. Even that one-point he gains in the sequel doesn't really help him out a lot compared to the 19+ Dexterity you may have at that point.
I find minsc to be versatile as can switch up from two handed sword to dual wielding (maces for me) or decent archer when it calls...his rage ability is a life saver too in some of those tough fights where you want those immunities. His dex stat can be pushed up through potions, spells etc for tougher fights and tanking, he's not good enough alone however but backed up with keldorn or val for tanking then they really work...until you get to TOB and you get the main man with the deathbringer assault
Minsc is overrated. He's decent at twohanded melee, decent at ranged, decent at dualweilding. He's mr average and would hardly ever been used without his banters and crazed personality. Power-wise he's dead last of the three.
Kivan is good at everything and can easily fit into many parties, but he isn't best at anything. There are better archers, meleers and stealthers in BG1. His main strength is his versatility. I find it hard to match him vs a BG2 char though since we never get to see him level up that high (unless mods). But still, a vanilla ranger is a vanilla ranger and even though he is good he doesn't really add anything extraordinary.
I like Valygar but have used him rather seldom in the past, mainly because I rarely use one stealth character in a team due to the amount of added micro. In a recent started playthrough I moved a F/T through BG1, SoD and then into BG2 and I realized how incredibly powerful it was to have two backstabbers who could still fight once breaking stealth. The synergy between dual backstabs at the start of combat is truly extraordinary. I've realized now though that he is indeed a power of his own as well. Like has been explained in much detail above, his skills, proficiences, abilities and kit makes him a solid party member since you don't HAVE TO spend valuable ability-improving items on him to make him good (like the dex gloves etc).
Corwin would win this poll if she had been in it. Mechanically, noone outshines an archer ranger in power. Her starting bow is also very good and if she had been in BG2, she would have smashed through SoA with much ease.
Corwin would win this poll if she had been in it. Mechanically, noone outshines an archer ranger in power. Her starting bow is also very good and if she had been in BG2, she would have smashed through SoA with much ease.
She definitely wouldn't have. Archer declines in quality throughout the series, and is at its best during BG1 and perhaps halfway through BG2.
Valygar remains useful throughout, though Kivan would be a close second. As I have said in previous posts, Valygar wins mainly because of his insanely good starting gear which enables him to do so much.
Corwin would win this poll if she had been in it. Mechanically, noone outshines an archer ranger in power. Her starting bow is also very good and if she had been in BG2, she would have smashed through SoA with much ease.
She definitely wouldn't have. Archer declines in quality throughout the series, and is at its best during BG1 and perhaps halfway through BG2.
Valygar remains useful throughout, though Kivan would be a close second. As I have said in previous posts, Valygar wins mainly because of his insanely good starting gear which enables him to do so much.
I see this opinion often, but it just isn't true. Other classes catch up to the archer, and some even surpass her. This, however, doesn't mean that the archer "declines", it just means other classes improve faster than and relative to the archer. EDIT: I mean in the late/end-game. Few, if any, classes has such a steep, early powercurve as the archer.
Though you are right in one thing, the archer might not have won a poll since all polls are answered subjectively and therefore emotions rather than pure logic often affects (and should as well! I don't mean that as something negative).
I agree that emotion overrides logic (and I do view it as something negative). But that has nothing to do with this particular discussion because both classes have their positives, and logic can prove either one right due to the simple fact of varying playstyles. It's like asking which food tastes the best! It would depend on someone's palate.
However, asking which food is healthiest would yield much more logical discussions.
Let us suppose that you are correct about the archer's power level throughout the game (something I disagree with). I haven't (nor has anyone) actually made the argument here that the stalker is the best kit, nor is that what this poll is asking. It is asking us what ranger is the best throughout the series.
You have taken the discussion to another topic altogether, arguing for kits rather than the rangers themselves.
That forces us to take into account not just their class, but the way they play, their equipment, and also their RP value.
The best ranger, by virtue of his gear (as I have pointed out repeatedly) is Valygar. This really is difficult for anyone to logically dispute. It enables him to do an insane amount of versatile stuff and play many different roles. From tanking vamps to nuking wizards, he does it all. Corwin does not. She stands back and shoots. That's it.
If we are arguing about classes (and not the rangers attached to them) which is the level you have brought the discussion to, then there really is no "right" answer. I maintain that the archer is a one-trick pony that is extremely strong at the start of the game but doesn't do much later on. It can scout and shoot. That's it. It is useless in melee.
The stalker can scout, shoot, backstab, melee, and even cast haste (freeing up a crucial third level spell slot for your mage). It can also charm animals (granted, not an overly useful skill, but can come into play sometimes). You can send Valygar out on his own and he will do a lot. Corwin, once the gap is closed so she cannot shoot, is virtually useless.
I have also made an argument for why from an RP perspective Valygar is the best. This one is completely subjective and no amount of logic can play a part in it because it really is a matter of personal preference. Be that as it may, Corwin will never be as loved as Minsc or Kivan, or even Valygar perhaps because she simply isn't around long enough to really get attached to. Corwin cannot compete with established characters. Not through any fault of her own (even if she was well-written, and I don't think she was), but simply because people emotionally attach to characters who they either use frequently, or who are simply better developed. That's why people love Minsc (even though I have logically argued earlier that Valygar is actually the best developed).
TL;DR, Corwin would definitely not be voted the best, looking at the situation either logically or emotionally.
Let us suppose that you are correct about the archer's power level throughout the game (something I disagree with). I haven't (nor has anyone) actually made the argument here that the stalker is the best kit, nor is that what this poll is asking. It is asking us what ranger is the best throughout the series.
You have taken the discussion to another topic altogether, arguing for kits rather than the rangers themselves.
I don't see your point. The poll is which ranger is the best, and the answer is of course based on: ability scores, items, special skills and kits. The picture on the avatar, the sound of their voice etc are purely cosmetic and has nothing to do with "best". Like you said, it's about which "food" is most healthy, not it's color, taste or smell. To decide what is best one must look at all aspects which affects the characters abilitiy to do tasks, this does very much include kits but can also include other things if you choose too, like banters. If you want to answer the poll by saying Valy has the best banters, the best voice kit, the best picture, the best items, that's fine. I don't argue that, but when you say that I should not include Corwin's kit into the discussion, you seem a bit narrow-minded.
That forces us to take into account not just their class, but the way they play, their equipment, and also their RP value.
The best ranger, by virtue of his gear (as I have pointed out repeatedly) is Valygar. This really is difficult for anyone to logically dispute. It enables him to do an insane amount of versatile stuff and play many different roles. From tanking vamps to nuking wizards, he does it all. Corwin does not. She stands back and shoots. That's it.
Yes, that's probably because of how you play her. This, however, does not mean that's her only merit. SoD introduces a smoergosboard of new arrows and also increase the availability of old ones. This gives the archer the ability to an even higher degree to choose arrows based on the opponents. This makes her very much more than a one trick pony, and your opinion on the matter seem to indicate that you haven't really experiemented much with the archer kit. You should try it some time, maybe the kit will surprise you.
If we are arguing about classes (and not the rangers attached to them) which is the level you have brought the discussion to, then there really is no "right" answer. I maintain that the archer is a one-trick pony that is extremely strong at the start of the game but doesn't do much later on. It can scout and shoot. That's it. It is useless in melee.
The difference between a stalker and an archer in melee is 1 THAC0. 2 damage and ½APR. That's it. If you want to call that useless, I would call that an exaggeration. All other differences between them are purely items, not related to kit or char. Archers still get warrior +APR on level 7 and 13 so with a speed weapon in the offhand they still reach 4 APR base before haste. Their THAC0 is also good enough to never really be a nuisance, although of course fighters will outshine them in melee, but that applies also to stalkers vs fighters.
The stalker can scout, shoot, backstab, melee, and even cast haste (freeing up a crucial third level spell slot for your mage). It can also charm animals (granted, not an overly useful skill, but can come into play sometimes). You can send Valygar out on his own and he will do a lot. Corwin, once the gap is closed so she cannot shoot, is virtually useless.
it's kinda funny you say that a stalker can shoot but an archer cannot melee. The difference between an archers ranged and the stalkers vs the archers melee vs the stalkers is way, way in favour of the archer. As I mentioned above the difference in melee is actually not that much but if you try to plink away with a stalker in late game you will soon realize that they don't shoot much better than a rogue. All archery in late game demands kits that add damage to the attack to be competative vs melee. It's a sad fact, but still it's a fact. So, I dare say that if you waste rounds attacking with ranged with your stalker other than for comfortability (too lazy to micro him) then you might as well have a rogue. (Yes yes, I know stalkers get warrior thac0 and a rogue does not, but in the end you are still stuck with the same damage. )
Late game, the archer does not stay competitive (and yes, I've played with an archer through IWD). Its limited strength at that stage comes only from range, and if the enemy ever closes the archer down, it is a useless class. The stalker's backstab, on the other hand, can provide huge amounts of burst damage, which is especially useful in taking down regenerative enemies, or dropping the most powerful member of a group when scouting (ie, mages) before they have a chance to do anything. Valygar, if he doesn't kill the mage outright, will force a bleed effect, making them irrelevant. Corwin cannot do the same. Valygar can be a good marksman throughout (obviously cannot match an archer), but is solid nevertheless. He provides so much utility that it is absurd. Corwin just doesn't. One trick pony, as all archers are.
Anyway, while the class is important to the discussion of best ranger across the series ,it is not the only thing. If the discussion was "which ranger kit is the best" then your post would be on topic. That would be akin to which food is the healthiest. This thread is which food tastes best.
All aspects come into play here, from banters, to personality, to avatar, etc. Those cannot be objectively argued, but must be taken into account as well. So let us strip all subjectivity away and look at objective facts. One is class. The other is stats. The third is items.
In class, as I've said, it depends on your playstyle. I have made my points for stalker and you have made yours for archer. I maintain my stance that the Stalker is infinitely more versatile than the one-trick pony that is the archer. No point discussing it further. People are free to agree or disagree and it is up to them to decide on strength based on playstyle/preference (coincidentally though, if you look at various polls around, it is stalker that usually is voted as the best).
Stat-wise, Valygar's 17/18/16 is far better than Corwin's 18/15/14. The dex bonus he receives and that she doesn't means that she would actually take several levels to catch up to Valygar's level of competence in archery. She is also less durable, since a con of 14 is the same as a con of 7 (ie, no bonuses).
Item-wise, Corwin's bow saves her a little bit, but across the series her bow wouldn't be good enough to last, since better ones exist. And even if it was, it adds no utility whatsoever, just more chance to hit/damage. Valygar's equipment, on the other hand, is strong and really is good enough to last the entire game, providing both a bonus to hit/damage and much needed utility.
Conclusion:
CLASS: We cannot really argue on what is "better." Both sides can make convincing arguments here so playstyle wins out.
STATS: Valygar wins. No contest.
ITEMS: Valygar wins. No contest.
In all the things we can logically deduce, Valygar is simply the superior ranger.
You make a strong case for stalker, one which I have never tried to debunk. I just tried to defend two things: 1: Kit is the number one reason for determining a characters virtue. 2: The archer is much better than you give it credit for.
But I agree, I will not argue over playstyle since I won't try to tell you archer is better than stalker just that you are underestimating the archer. But that's fine if you do, to each their own. I wouldn't mind seeing those polls where the stalker come out on top though since I don't recall any on the top of my head.
One thing I will discuss a bit further though is the way you determine best:
Stat-wise, Valygar's 17/18/16 is far better than Corwin's 18/15/14. The dex bonus he receives and that she doesn't means that she would actually take several levels to catch up to Valygar's level of competence in archery. She is also less durable, since a con of 14 is the same as a con of 7 (ie, no bonuses).
Item-wise, Corwin's bow saves her a little bit, but across the series her bow wouldn't be good enough to last, since better ones exist. And even if it was, it adds no utility whatsoever, just more chance to hit/damage. Valygar's equipment, on the other hand, is strong and really is good enough to last the entire game, providing both a bonus to hit/damage and much needed utility.
Conclusion:
CLASS: We cannot really argue on what is "better." Both sides can make convincing arguments here so playstyle wins out.
STATS: Valygar wins. No contest.
ITEMS: Valygar wins. No contest.
In all the things we can logically deduce, Valygar is simply the superior ranger.
Again you seem to underestimate that the versatility of the archer do not come from abilities, it comes from different arrows and their respective boons. Firing anti-magic arrows, fire arrows, poison arrows, arrows of dispel etc depending on who you face is what makes the big difference. It's like the bleed effect you have brought up a couple of times now, it really can change the course of battle and the archer has her way to do the same. Not to mention arrows of detonation of course, but they are self-explanatory and need no further introduction. There really is an arrow for every occasion and SoD, compared to the originals, has put in plenty of arrows to find and buy so you never run out.
In my opinion, items they start with are important indeed but it's replaceable as well so I don't see that as a major factor to determining their worth. It's just a matter of opinion though.
In my opinion, stats doesn't matter since all stats that do matter can be changed through items. Corwin gets access to an amulet that increases her DEX as well as adding crit%. Coupled with gloves or the ioun stone, her DEX is good enough to give added THAC0 boost. Not that it's really needed though. I won't argue against your point that Valy has better starting stats though, it's a given fact of course.
In my opinion, it all comes down to class since everything else can be changed and class and kit cannot. I love the stalker (and Valy) and has played it (and him) a lot (though I think a F/T is a better stalker than the stalker) but power-wise I think the archer is superior. And yes, I mean that throughout the saga.
Anyways, this was fun but I will debate it no further. Thanks for your input and discussion @wandering_ranger.
Again you seem to underestimate that the versatility of the archer do not come from abilities, it comes from different arrows and their respective boons. Firing anti-magic arrows, fire arrows, poison arrows, arrows of dispel etc depending on who you face is what makes the big difference. It's like the bleed effect you have brought up a couple of times now, it really can change the course of battle and the archer has her way to do the same. Not to mention arrows of detonation of course, but they are self-explanatory and need no further introduction. There really is an arrow for every occasion and SoD, compared to the originals, has put in plenty of arrows to find and buy so you never run out.
In my opinion, stats doesn't matter since all stats that do matter can be changed through items. Corwin gets access to an amulet that increases her DEX as well as adding crit%. Coupled with gloves or the ioun stone, her DEX is good enough to give added THAC0 boost. Not that it's really needed though. I won't argue against your point that Valy has better starting stats though, it's a given fact of course.
In my opinion, it all comes down to class since everything else can be changed and class and kit cannot. I love the stalker (and Valy) and has played it (and him) a lot (though I think a F/T is a better stalker than the stalker) but power-wise I think the archer is superior. And yes, I mean that throughout the saga.
The issue is that a stalker can shoot these arrows too. As can a rogue, or a fighter, or shaman. You dismiss the starting items argument then argue that it's items that others can also use which make the archer strong(!).
You have made no argument that proves your case. You've listed some virtues of the archer but your only argument for versatility is arrows (that other classes can use as well). Archers are, and remain, a one-trick pony that is strong to begin with and fades away as the game progresses and as enemies have more HP. Corwin cannot do half the things Valygar can do well, and there really is no contest on the matter. Valygar is simply superior, as definitively proven above. You make bold statements like "Corwin would win if she was in it," then have virtually nothing to back it when challenged. You listed a bunch of items that would make Corwin viable. Well, we can do the same for any character.
You're right about one thing, though; there is no point in debating this further. You could do an empirical test on this by running a poll yourself. But that would definitively refute you, so you won't. Logic VS emotions, and all that. Have a pleasant day.
Comments
Corwin on the other hand, has absolutely nothing "rangery-y" about her. She is a pure soldier. Her kit is that of the archer (that being her field of speciality), and serves the Flaming Fist in that aspect (perhaps also as a scout here and there). But to my knowledge, she doesn't exhibit any reverence for nature or the like - she is merely a duty-bound, family-orientated woman above all. One gets the impression her charm animal ability probably stems from training her household pet rather than any wilderness expertise.
Of course, the fact that she is a ranger merits her a place in the discussion, but I daresay she'd be the least popular of the lot.
So can anybody please tell me how to maximise his profeciency?
At the moment, he's pretty useless.
What gear, what weapons?
What is he actually good at? I have the same problem with Minsc, always seems to get far too injured when fighting melee.
I gave him celestial fury, but find him so bloody useless I keep nicking it for my charname in dodgy fights and simply move him away out of danger. If I'm lucky, he shoots a bit.
Playing SCS/insane.
So I have a truck load of money, pretty far onto BG2 so pretty much every seller available. I could do more of WK if there's something there which is invaluable for him. I'd like to get him better before spellhold simply because at the moment he feels like a freeloader.
So backstabbing is the way to go then?
Using his own sword?
Yeah, that's a problem, I never play that way but will have a try. Have a ton of potions, (thanks SCS) and the ring ect.
So Valygar, "Me and You, Let's go".
Valygar is not a tank, he is a great damage dealer and scout. I will give you a "complete guide" here, since you asked for help.
He requires a lot of attention, in the sense that you should use him as a solo scout, so you will be using him a lot while the party stays back. He should be your most clicked-on party member. You have several options when you scout the enemy:
1) If it is a small mob, backstab the spellcaster (if none, the strongest enemy), and rush in with the rest of your guys to clean up. Sometimes with weak enemies (such as spiders) Valygar can just solo mobs and doesn't even need the party.
2) If it is a large mob, position Valygar behind the most dangerous foe (as above). Then get your party together, summon a few creatures and rush the mob. They will engage your party, and then Valygar can come out of shadows and backstab the enemy he was behind. This will force some of the enemies to go to Valygar, while most will remain engaged on your party. It means a splitting of the forces which find themselves in disarray. The rest should be easy.
3) With extremely dangerous mobs, such as Umber Hulks or Mind Flayers it is unwise to put Valygar behind enemy lines as in example #2. Just take him back and assault head on with everyone. He can be in stealth mode and work his way up to the enemy instead of being behind them initially (so he doesn't get focused and killed, as anyone would in that situation).
I can also provide you with some equipment advice, since you asked:
In my last run, my charname was a druid. This means that I got a lot of great utility items were available from the start. I allied myself with the shadow thieves, and got the anti-level drain amulet. This, in combination with Valygar's starting armour (immunity to charm/domination) meant he could single-handedly wipe out the entire crypt of Bodhi (and all future vampire encounters). Vampires could merely attack him, and they are not strong in melee combat.
In the druid grove, you can find the spear of the unicorn (+2, immune to hold). Valygar already comes specialised in spears, which then meant he could also take on any enemies without being held.
I also got the ring of regeneration from pickpocketing Ribald. This ring is more useful on him than anyone because as a scout, he will often be in danger and take a hit or two from when he comes out from the shadows after an attack.
With just these three simple items (all easily attainable within the first hour or two after leaving Irenicus' dungeon), my latest BG2 run was essentially "the adventures of Valygar," as he pretty much did everything on his own. He was immune to charm/hold/level drain and had a steady stream of regeneration. He could destroy enemy casters easily with his starting weapon (useful throughout the entire game), so he was a Swiss army knife of greatness.
Slot #1 - His starting weapon (+ another sword, like the celestial fury in his off-hand).
Slot #2 - Spear of the Unicorn
Slot #3 - Longbow
+ Amulet of level drain and ring of regeneration.
Switch weapons where necessary (ie, dealing with ghouls, use spear).
Now, one can argue that any fighter would be good with these, but that's not exactly true. Not every character can use all of these items (ie, fighters cannot use amulet), and only Valygar can use his own sword and armour, which are incredible useful. Valygar thus already comes inbuilt with everything he needs, and has the appropriate weapon specialisations to begin with so that these easy-to-get items compliment him far more than other characters right off the bat.
Finally, as he levels, put a third slot in two-weapon fighting style, and then get good with longswords and a crushing weapon of your choice (for certain encounters where only crushing weapons work). That's it! The complete guide to Valygar. Have fun!
Thank you.
I think perhaps it's too late to really use him this well.
For instance, vampires, Aerie at this point can blow them to pieces or scare them away so it makes more sense to protect her from level drain. And when they are attempting to crawl up the walls in terror, they don't bother to level drain.
I will have a go with the whole stealth/backstab thing using Valygar, it is about time I learnt how to use that technique. And if he's the best, then it's something I ought to do.
(my favourite class is "swashbuckler", so as you can tell, sneaking is not my forte)
Roughly 60% of you are all heathens. HEATHENS!
Kivan is good at everything and can easily fit into many parties, but he isn't best at anything. There are better archers, meleers and stealthers in BG1. His main strength is his versatility. I find it hard to match him vs a BG2 char though since we never get to see him level up that high (unless mods). But still, a vanilla ranger is a vanilla ranger and even though he is good he doesn't really add anything extraordinary.
I like Valygar but have used him rather seldom in the past, mainly because I rarely use one stealth character in a team due to the amount of added micro. In a recent started playthrough I moved a F/T through BG1, SoD and then into BG2 and I realized how incredibly powerful it was to have two backstabbers who could still fight once breaking stealth. The synergy between dual backstabs at the start of combat is truly extraordinary. I've realized now though that he is indeed a power of his own as well. Like has been explained in much detail above, his skills, proficiences, abilities and kit makes him a solid party member since you don't HAVE TO spend valuable ability-improving items on him to make him good (like the dex gloves etc).
Corwin would win this poll if she had been in it. Mechanically, noone outshines an archer ranger in power. Her starting bow is also very good and if she had been in BG2, she would have smashed through SoA with much ease.
Valygar remains useful throughout, though Kivan would be a close second. As I have said in previous posts, Valygar wins mainly because of his insanely good starting gear which enables him to do so much.
Though you are right in one thing, the archer might not have won a poll since all polls are answered subjectively and therefore emotions rather than pure logic often affects (and should as well! I don't mean that as something negative).
However, asking which food is healthiest would yield much more logical discussions.
Let us suppose that you are correct about the archer's power level throughout the game (something I disagree with). I haven't (nor has anyone) actually made the argument here that the stalker is the best kit, nor is that what this poll is asking. It is asking us what ranger is the best throughout the series.
You have taken the discussion to another topic altogether, arguing for kits rather than the rangers themselves.
That forces us to take into account not just their class, but the way they play, their equipment, and also their RP value.
The best ranger, by virtue of his gear (as I have pointed out repeatedly) is Valygar. This really is difficult for anyone to logically dispute. It enables him to do an insane amount of versatile stuff and play many different roles. From tanking vamps to nuking wizards, he does it all. Corwin does not. She stands back and shoots. That's it.
If we are arguing about classes (and not the rangers attached to them) which is the level you have brought the discussion to, then there really is no "right" answer. I maintain that the archer is a one-trick pony that is extremely strong at the start of the game but doesn't do much later on. It can scout and shoot. That's it. It is useless in melee.
The stalker can scout, shoot, backstab, melee, and even cast haste (freeing up a crucial third level spell slot for your mage). It can also charm animals (granted, not an overly useful skill, but can come into play sometimes). You can send Valygar out on his own and he will do a lot. Corwin, once the gap is closed so she cannot shoot, is virtually useless.
I have also made an argument for why from an RP perspective Valygar is the best. This one is completely subjective and no amount of logic can play a part in it because it really is a matter of personal preference. Be that as it may, Corwin will never be as loved as Minsc or Kivan, or even Valygar perhaps because she simply isn't around long enough to really get attached to. Corwin cannot compete with established characters. Not through any fault of her own (even if she was well-written, and I don't think she was), but simply because people emotionally attach to characters who they either use frequently, or who are simply better developed. That's why people love Minsc (even though I have logically argued earlier that Valygar is actually the best developed).
TL;DR, Corwin would definitely not be voted the best, looking at the situation either logically or emotionally.
Yes, that's probably because of how you play her. This, however, does not mean that's her only merit. SoD introduces a smoergosboard of new arrows and also increase the availability of old ones. This gives the archer the ability to an even higher degree to choose arrows based on the opponents. This makes her very much more than a one trick pony, and your opinion on the matter seem to indicate that you haven't really experiemented much with the archer kit. You should try it some time, maybe the kit will surprise you.
The difference between a stalker and an archer in melee is 1 THAC0. 2 damage and ½APR. That's it. If you want to call that useless, I would call that an exaggeration. All other differences between them are purely items, not related to kit or char. Archers still get warrior +APR on level 7 and 13 so with a speed weapon in the offhand they still reach 4 APR base before haste. Their THAC0 is also good enough to never really be a nuisance, although of course fighters will outshine them in melee, but that applies also to stalkers vs fighters.
it's kinda funny you say that a stalker can shoot but an archer cannot melee. The difference between an archers ranged and the stalkers vs the archers melee vs the stalkers is way, way in favour of the archer. As I mentioned above the difference in melee is actually not that much but if you try to plink away with a stalker in late game you will soon realize that they don't shoot much better than a rogue. All archery in late game demands kits that add damage to the attack to be competative vs melee. It's a sad fact, but still it's a fact. So, I dare say that if you waste rounds attacking with ranged with your stalker other than for comfortability (too lazy to micro him) then you might as well have a rogue. (Yes yes, I know stalkers get warrior thac0 and a rogue does not, but in the end you are still stuck with the same damage. )
Cheers/Skat.
Anyway, while the class is important to the discussion of best ranger across the series ,it is not the only thing. If the discussion was "which ranger kit is the best" then your post would be on topic. That would be akin to which food is the healthiest. This thread is which food tastes best.
All aspects come into play here, from banters, to personality, to avatar, etc. Those cannot be objectively argued, but must be taken into account as well. So let us strip all subjectivity away and look at objective facts. One is class. The other is stats. The third is items.
In class, as I've said, it depends on your playstyle. I have made my points for stalker and you have made yours for archer. I maintain my stance that the Stalker is infinitely more versatile than the one-trick pony that is the archer. No point discussing it further. People are free to agree or disagree and it is up to them to decide on strength based on playstyle/preference (coincidentally though, if you look at various polls around, it is stalker that usually is voted as the best).
Stat-wise, Valygar's 17/18/16 is far better than Corwin's 18/15/14. The dex bonus he receives and that she doesn't means that she would actually take several levels to catch up to Valygar's level of competence in archery. She is also less durable, since a con of 14 is the same as a con of 7 (ie, no bonuses).
Item-wise, Corwin's bow saves her a little bit, but across the series her bow wouldn't be good enough to last, since better ones exist. And even if it was, it adds no utility whatsoever, just more chance to hit/damage. Valygar's equipment, on the other hand, is strong and really is good enough to last the entire game, providing both a bonus to hit/damage and much needed utility.
Conclusion:
CLASS: We cannot really argue on what is "better." Both sides can make convincing arguments here so playstyle wins out.
STATS: Valygar wins. No contest.
ITEMS: Valygar wins. No contest.
In all the things we can logically deduce, Valygar is simply the superior ranger.
1: Kit is the number one reason for determining a characters virtue.
2: The archer is much better than you give it credit for.
But I agree, I will not argue over playstyle since I won't try to tell you archer is better than stalker just that you are underestimating the archer. But that's fine if you do, to each their own. I wouldn't mind seeing those polls where the stalker come out on top though since I don't recall any on the top of my head.
One thing I will discuss a bit further though is the way you determine best: Again you seem to underestimate that the versatility of the archer do not come from abilities, it comes from different arrows and their respective boons. Firing anti-magic arrows, fire arrows, poison arrows, arrows of dispel etc depending on who you face is what makes the big difference. It's like the bleed effect you have brought up a couple of times now, it really can change the course of battle and the archer has her way to do the same. Not to mention arrows of detonation of course, but they are self-explanatory and need no further introduction. There really is an arrow for every occasion and SoD, compared to the originals, has put in plenty of arrows to find and buy so you never run out.
In my opinion, items they start with are important indeed but it's replaceable as well so I don't see that as a major factor to determining their worth. It's just a matter of opinion though.
In my opinion, stats doesn't matter since all stats that do matter can be changed through items. Corwin gets access to an amulet that increases her DEX as well as adding crit%. Coupled with gloves or the ioun stone, her DEX is good enough to give added THAC0 boost. Not that it's really needed though. I won't argue against your point that Valy has better starting stats though, it's a given fact of course.
In my opinion, it all comes down to class since everything else can be changed and class and kit cannot. I love the stalker (and Valy) and has played it (and him) a lot (though I think a F/T is a better stalker than the stalker) but power-wise I think the archer is superior. And yes, I mean that throughout the saga.
Anyways, this was fun but I will debate it no further. Thanks for your input and discussion @wandering_ranger.
You have made no argument that proves your case. You've listed some virtues of the archer but your only argument for versatility is arrows (that other classes can use as well). Archers are, and remain, a one-trick pony that is strong to begin with and fades away as the game progresses and as enemies have more HP. Corwin cannot do half the things Valygar can do well, and there really is no contest on the matter. Valygar is simply superior, as definitively proven above. You make bold statements like "Corwin would win if she was in it," then have virtually nothing to back it when challenged. You listed a bunch of items that would make Corwin viable. Well, we can do the same for any character.
You're right about one thing, though; there is no point in debating this further. You could do an empirical test on this by running a poll yourself. But that would definitively refute you, so you won't. Logic VS emotions, and all that. Have a pleasant day.