I still like Valygar best even after all this discussion. I think his readymade proficiency in katana is the main reason though. He is absolutely lethal with Celestial Fury!
@SomeSort Coran has 3 pips in Longbow, despite being illegal for a Fighter/Thief. Coupled with his 20 Dex his Thac0 is better than Kivan's by 3. He also does 1 additional damage per shot. Of course if Kivan is much higher level than Coran the gap will be closed but at equal XP the level difference isn't much.
Likewise, there were no kits in BG1 (in fact, Ranger and Paladin were considered Fighter subclasses back in the day), otherwise Kivan would be an archer and, IMnsHO, better.
@SomeSort Coran has 3 pips in Longbow, despite being illegal for a Fighter/Thief. Coupled with his 20 Dex his Thac0 is better than Kivan's by 3. He also does 1 additional damage per shot. Of course if Kivan is much higher level than Coran the gap will be closed but at equal XP the level difference isn't much.
Is this still the case? I thought patch 2.0 switched over to ToB-style NPCs, which means you get the level 1 version and level them yourselves, meaning you can't get that (illegal) third pip anymore. I agree that the third pip changes things. Can someone confirm or deny?
@SomeSort Coran has 3 pips in Longbow, despite being illegal for a Fighter/Thief. Coupled with his 20 Dex his Thac0 is better than Kivan's by 3. He also does 1 additional damage per shot. Of course if Kivan is much higher level than Coran the gap will be closed but at equal XP the level difference isn't much.
Is this still the case? I thought patch 2.0 switched over to ToB-style NPCs, which means you get the level 1 version and level them yourselves, meaning you can't get that (illegal) third pip anymore. I agree that the third pip changes things. Can someone confirm or deny?
If this is true, then that would make Khalid the best archer in BG1 with his ability to get mastery.
ToB-style doesn't always result in level 1 characters. They're still at the minimum level they spawned in the original, they just gain XP on top of that instead of being substituted with a higher level .cre file. For Coran it's 3/3.
Edit: it's also possible my mod list is the culprit for that behavior (I have SCS and the BG1NPC mod installed at the moment) so if someone else could check it'd be great.
ToB-style doesn't always result in level 1 characters. They're still at the minimum level they spawned in the original, they just gain XP on top of that instead of being substituted with a higher level .cre file. For Coran it's 3/3.
Edit: it's also possible my mod list is the culprit for that behavior (I have SCS and the BG1NPC mod installed at the moment) so if someone else could check it'd be great.
This is sweet if true because Coran is my favorite NPC and when iPad updates to 2.x I was really going to miss that third pip.
@SomeSort Coran has 3 pips in Longbow, despite being illegal for a Fighter/Thief. Coupled with his 20 Dex his Thac0 is better than Kivan's by 3. He also does 1 additional damage per shot. Of course if Kivan is much higher level than Coran the gap will be closed but at equal XP the level difference isn't much.
Is this still the case? I thought patch 2.0 switched over to ToB-style NPCs, which means you get the level 1 version and level them yourselves, meaning you can't get that (illegal) third pip anymore. I agree that the third pip changes things. Can someone confirm or deny?
If this is true, then that would make Khalid the best archer in BG1 with his ability to get mastery.
Mastery grants +2 THACO and +1 damage vs. Specialization, but Khalid loses one THACO for being a half-elf instead of an elf and loses another THACO for having 16 dex instead of 17. He still gets the point of damage, but can't equip Composite Long Bows, which lets Kivan make up the damage difference, (although it puts him on THACO behind again because Khalid gets Long Bow of Marksmanship). So I'd add him to that "tied with Kivan and Coran" bucket, instead.
A big problem is that the end-game doesn't come until the end of the game, though. If you just care about end-game strength, Shar-Teel dualed from Fighter to Thief at level 6 will be up there, too. But Kivan doesn't need your machinations, he's just a bomb Archer from the second area you visit to the last.
We're not exactly looking for the best *archer* now, are we? Granted, I also chose an archer, Corwin's character opened my eyes to the power of the archer kit. Since a ranger can be more than an archer though it all depends on what is best for *you* and your party.
@SomeSort Coran has 3 pips in Longbow, despite being illegal for a Fighter/Thief. Coupled with his 20 Dex his Thac0 is better than Kivan's by 3. He also does 1 additional damage per shot. Of course if Kivan is much higher level than Coran the gap will be closed but at equal XP the level difference isn't much.
Is this still the case? I thought patch 2.0 switched over to ToB-style NPCs, which means you get the level 1 version and level them yourselves, meaning you can't get that (illegal) third pip anymore. I agree that the third pip changes things. Can someone confirm or deny?
If this is true, then that would make Khalid the best archer in BG1 with his ability to get mastery.
Mastery grants +2 THACO and +1 damage vs. Specialization, but Khalid loses one THACO for being a half-elf instead of an elf and loses another THACO for having 16 dex instead of 17. He still gets the point of damage, but can't equip Composite Long Bows, which lets Kivan make up the damage difference, (although it puts him on THACO behind again because Khalid gets Long Bow of Marksmanship). So I'd add him to that "tied with Kivan and Coran" bucket, instead.
A big problem is that the end-game doesn't come until the end of the game, though. If you just care about end-game strength, Shar-Teel dualed from Fighter to Thief at level 6 will be up there, too. But Kivan doesn't need your machinations, he's just a bomb Archer from the second area you visit to the last.
Actually puts him behind in the comparison, because then Kivan puts on the Bracers of Archery (+2 THACO vs. the +1 Khalid is getting from his dex gauntlets), or else Kivan puts on the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, matches Khalid's +1 THACO bonus, and gets +2 damage to boot.
Plus why on earth would you waste a perfectly good pair of dex gauntlets in BG1 on a non-front-line character when literally every front-liner in the game is getting 3+ AC from them (except for Montaron/Shar-Teel if you don't use them as thieves and any of the archers if you're feeling sacrilegious and don't use them to arch)?
If Coran is still getting his three pips in long bows then he's still the best archer in the game, but Kivan's a close second (yes, with Khalid / Shar-Teel essentially tied), and like I said, he's available and optimized to rain down death from the second area you visit to the last area you visit, while the other options are mid-game options at best.
We're not exactly looking for the best *archer* now, are we? Granted, I also chose an archer, Corwin's character opened my eyes to the power of the archer kit. Since a ranger can be more than an archer though it all depends on what is best for *you* and your party.
Very true, though my vote for Kivan is premised on the fact that he's the only ranger in the series who can make a claim to being the most powerful NPC in his respective game, and a lot of that is based on his superiority as an archer.
@SomeSort My front liners don't need the Dex gauntlets. I could also give Khalid the Legacy of the Masters or the Bracers of Archery. Kivan is still only the 3rd best archer in BG1.
@SomeSort My front liners don't need the Dex gauntlets. I could also give Khalid the Legacy of the Masters or the Bracers of Archery. Kivan is still only the 3rd best archer in BG1.
Kivan is (A) unambiguously better than Khalid prior to Khalid hitting level 6 (B) lacking only 1 point of THACO compared to Khalid after level 6 (assuming Composite Longbow +1 on Kivan, Longbow of Marksmanship on Khalid, and otherwise equivalent gear).
Given the way experience is distributed, assuming you're not cheesing the early levels, you might spend half of your playtime prior to reaching level 6, especially if you do a lot of early exploring, (which has a very low ratio of XP awarded per unit of time spent compared to advancing the main plot outside of basilisks / sirens).
(Another big advantage: Kivan's end-game weapon is purchasable relatively cheaply in Beregost.)
Even after level 6, though, Kivan has +100 carrying capacity, (an extra Ankheg shell per trip), +1 THACO / +3 damage in melee when an enemy manages to close on him, and most importantly, *doesn't have that stupid morale failure*. Does having a much better melee switch and no risk of ill-timed panics offset 1 point of ranged THACO? I sure think so, since for an archer THACO is usually the least of his concerns.
So Khalid is worse than Kivan for half the game and equal to Kivan for half the game, (or worse for a third and equal for two-thirds, or whatever). He's not a better archer, he's tied at best and in my mind just flat-out worse. Same with Shar-Teel. Being able to reach parity with Kivan eventually doesn't completely offset all that time before you reach parity with Kivan.
If Coran still gets his third pip in Longbows, then sure, Coran is the best archer in the game and Kivan is second with the huge advantage of actually being available for the first third of the game, (the hardest third, IMO, thanks to low-level HP pools and gear). Which is enough of an advantage for me to say that Kivan is still the best NPC in BG1, and by extension, the best ranger in the series.
In theory Coran should have a slight edge (Coran's +1 thac0 from dex will be offset by Kivan's being 1 warrior level ahead, but Coran's extra pip still gives +2). In my last playthrough I took both, and Kivan with his Composite +1 still got more kills&xp per chapter for some reason than Coran with Deadshot - it could have been the choice of arrows or the bracers (one of them must have had weapon expertise and the other of archery).
Another advantage of Coran is that he can serve as your party thief (I just temporarily remove his armor when I need him to thief) but then, that's only because he is not a ranger, which makes him irrelevant to this thread. Rangers can charm animals and fighter/thieves can't, and I actually utilize that ability sometimes in the early game. In BG1 it can help you, say, in the Xvart village early on, and in BG2 Minsc can use it to lolstomp the Beastmaster at the Copper Coronet, who is otherwise a formidable opponent if you're just out of Irenicus' dungeon.
@SomeSort What stupid morale failure? I never have party members panic and run unless it was triggered by a mage. What does carrying capacity have to do with archery anyway?
@SomeSort What stupid morale failure? I never have party members panic and run unless it was triggered by a mage. What does carrying capacity have to do with archery anyway?
Every party member has a base morale level. When their morale declines enough, they panic, exactly like monsters will do if you damage them enough or kill some of their friends. Khalid's base morale level is the lowest in the game, which means he is by far the character most prone to panicking during battle when party members start dying. (Also when taking damage, which makes him a far worse tank than his stats would suggest, but is less of an issue when he's arching.)
How often you see this behavior is going to depend a lot on how often party members die on you in your playthroughs. I will say, though, that "when your party-mates start dying" is pretty much the worst possible time to lose control of your primary damage-dealer, so the rarity of such events is partially offset by the severity of such events.
Carrying capacity is largely a convenience thing, but gear can be heavy. Full Plate (70 lbs) + Longbow (9 lbs) + helmet (2 lbs) + a melee weapon switch (long sword: 4 lbs) gets you to 85 pounds already, and that's not including gloves, boots, belts, additional weapons, potions, etc. Khalid can carry all of his gear, but not much more.
For me, killing enemies is just the start; the battle isn't complete until you haul their loot back to town and sell it off. Khalid's not much use there unless you're using a lighter armor, in which case we can ignore Kivan's carrying capacity advantage and talk about his AC advantage, instead.
@SomeSort What stupid morale failure? I never have party members panic and run unless it was triggered by a mage. What does carrying capacity have to do with archery anyway?
I've had this happen with Khalid and Kagain a few times, where at first level their HP will dip under a threshold and they start scampering around like a sugar-coated chipmunk. IIRC, I've only seen this with these two at level 1, so what the exact mechanics are I can't say and can't be bothered to look it up.
@SomeSort What stupid morale failure? I never have party members panic and run unless it was triggered by a mage. What does carrying capacity have to do with archery anyway?
I've had this happen with Khalid and Kagain a few times, where at first level their HP will dip under a threshold and they start scampering around like a sugar-coated chipmunk. IIRC, I've only seen this with these two at level 1, so what the exact mechanics are I can't say and can't be bothered to look it up.
Yes, Kagain also has a low innate morale level, (I believe him and Garrick are the worst after Khalid). The two things I know for sure contribute to morale breaks are losing party members and losing HP quickly, but since the latter is measured as a percentage of your total HP and Kagain has a huge HP pool / regeneration, it helps overcome his poor innate morale, (this is also why it's more common at lower levels, especially if you are the type who rarely loses party members).
I've heard speculation that enemy quality contributes to morale failure, e.g. it's more common against Ogres than Gibberlings. Also, having a high-charisma leader reduces the odds of morale breaks, so if you're the type to roll up super-min/maxed fighter charnames with 3 charisma you'll see it a lot more than if you're rolling a Paladin, say.
@SomeSort What stupid morale failure? I never have party members panic and run unless it was triggered by a mage. What does carrying capacity have to do with archery anyway?
Every party member has a base morale level. When their morale declines enough, they panic, exactly like monsters will do if you damage them enough or kill some of their friends. Khalid's base morale level is the lowest in the game, which means he is by far the character most prone to panicking during battle when party members start dying. (Also when taking damage, which makes him a far worse tank than his stats would suggest, but is less of an issue when he's arching.)
How often you see this behavior is going to depend a lot on how often party members die on you in your playthroughs. I will say, though, that "when your party-mates start dying" is pretty much the worst possible time to lose control of your primary damage-dealer, so the rarity of such events is partially offset by the severity of such events.
Carrying capacity is largely a convenience thing, but gear can be heavy. Full Plate (70 lbs) + Longbow (9 lbs) + helmet (2 lbs) + a melee weapon switch (long sword: 4 lbs) gets you to 85 pounds already, and that's not including gloves, boots, belts, additional weapons, potions, etc. Khalid can carry all of his gear, but not much more.
For me, killing enemies is just the start; the battle isn't complete until you haul their loot back to town and sell it off. Khalid's not much use there unless you're using a lighter armor, in which case we can ignore Kivan's carrying capacity advantage and talk about his AC advantage, instead.
Yes; I'm not sure what the exact formula is, but from everything I understand having a high-charisma character in the party leader spot will greatly reduce it, (as well as reduce the chance of conflicting NPCs coming to blows).
I've played this game for many years now and even though I don't use Khalid as much as other chars, I've still had him plenty of times and never once have he broken morale as far as I remember. I know he can and I still joke about it happening etc, but he actually never have. I don't always play CHA18 charnames either. Usually I settle for CHA8-10 depending on class and RP background (of course for when class doesn't require it).
I've played this game for many years now and even though I don't use Khalid as much as other chars, I've still had him plenty of times and never once have he broken morale as far as I remember. I know he can and I still joke about it happening etc, but he actually never have. I don't always play CHA18 charnames either. Usually I settle for CHA8-10 depending on class and RP background (of course for when class doesn't require it).
My first or second run-through was with a min/maxed 3-charisma fighter and I had his morale break three times before I even started the Nashkel Mines. When he and Montaron came to blows, I helped the Zhents chunk him and moved on. Since then, it's been very rare for me to actually bring him. I'd imagine an 18-charisma party tank mitigates the vast majority of the risk, but I still hold a grudge.
Yes; I'm not sure what the exact formula is, but from everything I understand having a high-charisma character in the party leader spot will greatly reduce it, (as well as reduce the chance of conflicting NPCs coming to blows).
That would explain it. I always run 18CHR charnames.
Comments
Coran has 3 pips in Longbow, despite being illegal for a Fighter/Thief. Coupled with his 20 Dex his Thac0 is better than Kivan's by 3. He also does 1 additional damage per shot. Of course if Kivan is much higher level than Coran the gap will be closed but at equal XP the level difference isn't much.
Minsc has never felt like a ranger - he should have been a Berserker, IMHO. They probably did it to justify Boo, I guess..
Valygar is a hybrid class that I personally don't identify as ranger, not really.
Edit: it's also possible my mod list is the culprit for that behavior (I have SCS and the BG1NPC mod installed at the moment) so if someone else could check it'd be great.
A big problem is that the end-game doesn't come until the end of the game, though. If you just care about end-game strength, Shar-Teel dualed from Fighter to Thief at level 6 will be up there, too. But Kivan doesn't need your machinations, he's just a bomb Archer from the second area you visit to the last.
We're not exactly looking for the best *archer* now, are we?
Plus why on earth would you waste a perfectly good pair of dex gauntlets in BG1 on a non-front-line character when literally every front-liner in the game is getting 3+ AC from them (except for Montaron/Shar-Teel if you don't use them as thieves and any of the archers if you're feeling sacrilegious and don't use them to arch)?
If Coran is still getting his three pips in long bows then he's still the best archer in the game, but Kivan's a close second (yes, with Khalid / Shar-Teel essentially tied), and like I said, he's available and optimized to rain down death from the second area you visit to the last area you visit, while the other options are mid-game options at best.
(A) unambiguously better than Khalid prior to Khalid hitting level 6
(B) lacking only 1 point of THACO compared to Khalid after level 6 (assuming Composite Longbow +1 on Kivan, Longbow of Marksmanship on Khalid, and otherwise equivalent gear).
Given the way experience is distributed, assuming you're not cheesing the early levels, you might spend half of your playtime prior to reaching level 6, especially if you do a lot of early exploring, (which has a very low ratio of XP awarded per unit of time spent compared to advancing the main plot outside of basilisks / sirens).
(Another big advantage: Kivan's end-game weapon is purchasable relatively cheaply in Beregost.)
Even after level 6, though, Kivan has +100 carrying capacity, (an extra Ankheg shell per trip), +1 THACO / +3 damage in melee when an enemy manages to close on him, and most importantly, *doesn't have that stupid morale failure*. Does having a much better melee switch and no risk of ill-timed panics offset 1 point of ranged THACO? I sure think so, since for an archer THACO is usually the least of his concerns.
So Khalid is worse than Kivan for half the game and equal to Kivan for half the game, (or worse for a third and equal for two-thirds, or whatever). He's not a better archer, he's tied at best and in my mind just flat-out worse. Same with Shar-Teel. Being able to reach parity with Kivan eventually doesn't completely offset all that time before you reach parity with Kivan.
If Coran still gets his third pip in Longbows, then sure, Coran is the best archer in the game and Kivan is second with the huge advantage of actually being available for the first third of the game, (the hardest third, IMO, thanks to low-level HP pools and gear). Which is enough of an advantage for me to say that Kivan is still the best NPC in BG1, and by extension, the best ranger in the series.
Another advantage of Coran is that he can serve as your party thief (I just temporarily remove his armor when I need him to thief) but then, that's only because he is not a ranger, which makes him irrelevant to this thread. Rangers can charm animals and fighter/thieves can't, and I actually utilize that ability sometimes in the early game. In BG1 it can help you, say, in the Xvart village early on, and in BG2 Minsc can use it to lolstomp the Beastmaster at the Copper Coronet, who is otherwise a formidable opponent if you're just out of Irenicus' dungeon.
How often you see this behavior is going to depend a lot on how often party members die on you in your playthroughs. I will say, though, that "when your party-mates start dying" is pretty much the worst possible time to lose control of your primary damage-dealer, so the rarity of such events is partially offset by the severity of such events.
Carrying capacity is largely a convenience thing, but gear can be heavy. Full Plate (70 lbs) + Longbow (9 lbs) + helmet (2 lbs) + a melee weapon switch (long sword: 4 lbs) gets you to 85 pounds already, and that's not including gloves, boots, belts, additional weapons, potions, etc. Khalid can carry all of his gear, but not much more.
For me, killing enemies is just the start; the battle isn't complete until you haul their loot back to town and sell it off. Khalid's not much use there unless you're using a lighter armor, in which case we can ignore Kivan's carrying capacity advantage and talk about his AC advantage, instead.
I've heard speculation that enemy quality contributes to morale failure, e.g. it's more common against Ogres than Gibberlings. Also, having a high-charisma leader reduces the odds of morale breaks, so if you're the type to roll up super-min/maxed fighter charnames with 3 charisma you'll see it a lot more than if you're rolling a Paladin, say.