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Luck: What it is and how it works

13

Comments

  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 388
    @semiticgod: Wow, I didn't need that much information on fatigue, but thank you anyway, it's good to know. :)


    When I had one character with +20 luck attack a character with 0 luck, the former did 16 crushing damage and 5d6 acid damage. When both characters had +20 luck, the former did 12 crushing damage and 5 acid damage. It should have dealt 12 crushing damage each time. So it seems like there's an opposing roll for luck, in that the defender's luck can cancel out the attackers luck, but only for physical damage.
    But since enemies in the IE games don't have any positive luck effects and your party members won't attack each other unless they're charmed (which prevents them from benefiting from bard song luck), this should almost never become relevant unless somebody mods an enemy to get luck.

    That sounds worrying indeed. There are many things that might explain that difference (16-12) if the circumstances change, like what kjeron suggested. But if you confirm that the circumstances are identical (except for the change in luck, of course), that definitely suggests that luck does something that we're not aware of. Looking forward to hearing what comes from your testing.

    By the way, I don't think it's irrelevant at all. In SCS half of your foes use Chant, which means that they do have a luck bonus. So it looks like a pretty common and relevant situation.

    gorgonzola
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,574
    kjeron said:

    2. When I had one character with +20 luck attack a character with 0 luck, the former did 16 crushing damage and 5d6 acid damage. When both characters had +20 luck, the former did 12 crushing damage and 5 acid damage. It should have dealt 12 crushing damage each time. So it seems like there's an opposing roll for luck, in that the defender's luck can cancel out the attackers luck, but only for physical damage.

    Was the one getting attacked at 0 luck unarmed? That would account for the +4 damage.
    @Alonso: I just tested it. Disconfirmed. Apparently equipping a missile weapon is responsible for the +4 damage (I thought a custom throwing spear was a melee weapon). So there is no opposed roll for Chant; it has no impact on incoming physical damage.

    Alonsololien
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 388
    Thanks for checking.

    Only one question left: In your list of luck sources you don’t mention intoxication. Was it an oversight or does it mean that intoxication doesn’t affect luck?

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,574
    @Alonso: Looks like intoxication goes from 0 to 100. It grants penalties to luck and bonuses to morale:

    0-49 intoxication: no bonuses or penalties.
    50-59 intoxication: -2 luck and +2 morale.
    60-69 intoxication: -4 luck and +4 morale.
    70-79 intoxication: -6 luck and +6 morale.
    80-89 intoxication: -8 luck and +8 morale.
    90-99 intoxication: -10 luck and +10 morale.
    100 intoxication: -12 luck and +12 morale.

    That's from the INTOXMOD.2da file. Here's the INTOXCON.2da file:

    I don't really know, but I think "intoxication rate" means how much each drink adds to your intoxication based on your Constitution. Thus, a character with 18 CON will only get 7 intoxication per drink, while a character with 3 CON will get 66. I'm guess "recovery rate" means the number of rounds it takes for intoxication to hit zero, or the number of seconds it takes for intoxication to go down by 1.

    There's not really any time or place when the morale bonus would outweigh the luck penalty, even if you didn't have access to Remove/Resist Fear.

    The only source of intoxication outside of a tavern is one of the negative Wish results. It increases intoxication by 100 for 1200 seconds (200 rounds), which means everyone who gets hit suffers -12 luck. It is dispellable and though it bypasses magic resistance and offers no saving throw, it can be blocked by Spell Immunity: Enchantment and possibly Minor Globe of Invulnerability, as it is a level 3 Enchantment spell.

    gorgonzolaAlonsololienStummvonBordwehr
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,516
    If is dispellable and is possible to protect party members with mage spells than is potentially one of the strongest choices of the Wish spell, even more in a party where every member is also arcane caster, in each area with no neutral characters.
    20 turns of -12 luck, bypassing MR and with no save, to each enemy in the area is a crazy bonus.
    If the choice of the limited wish to have the party protected from magic now protects against the wish intoxication even better, casting the 2 spells right after entering an area is potentially the strongest combination of 2 spells of the whole game.

    Aasimsemiticgodlolien
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,574
    @gorgonzola: Aside from imposing a -12 THAC0 penalty on enemies and reducing base damage rolls to the minimum (though not affecting damage bonuses from STR and so forth), and therefore crippling enemy damage output, it would also increase the party's spell damage.

    The difference is especially pronounced among spells that use higher dice to roll damage. A -12 luck bonus would mean:
    1d4 spells like Magic Missile, Holy Smite, and Incendiary Cloud: +60% damage
    1d6 spells like Agannazar's Scorcher, Flame Arrow, Skull Trap, and Sunfire: +71% damage
    1d8 spells like Flame Strike and Horrid Wilting: +78% damage
    1d10 spells like Dragon's Breath and Comet: +82% damage

    gorgonzolaAlonsololien
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 388
    I'm a bit confused with these two effects:


    The only source of intoxication outside of a tavern is one of the negative Wish results. It increases intoxication by 100 for 1200 seconds (200 rounds), which means everyone who gets hit suffers -12 luck. It is dispellable and though it bypasses magic resistance and offers no saving throw, it can be blocked by Spell Immunity: Enchantment and possibly Minor Globe of Invulnerability, as it is a level 3 Enchantment spell.


    Bad Luck (Wish effect): -5 luck for 60 seconds, party-wide

    Does it mean that the Wish spell has two different effects that affect luck?

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,495
    I found in my latest drunk protagonist run that antidotes (green potions) do not cure intoxication. I did not try the violet/purple/lilac potion.

    Alonsogorgonzola
  • PteranPteran Member Posts: 388
    @semiticgod perhaps this was answered earlier in the thread and I didn't see it. If I have an item equipped that adds Luck, such as the Cat's Claw sword from RR, does that stack with other sources of Luck? Could I combine it with other items that grant Luck (of which I know none lol) or the Luck spell? How would that interact with spells like Bless, which grant effects similar to Luck?

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,574
    @Pteran: I don't know which opcode the Cat's Claw uses (you can check it using Near Infinity). If it's opcode 22, it won't stack with the Luck spell (or the Lucky Scimitar if you somehow imported that from Icewind Dale), but it will stack with anything else. If it's opcode 133, it will stack with all other forms of luck.

    Bless does not grant effects similar to luck. Chant does, and is effectively just luck plus some saving throw bonuses on top. Bless just grants +1 to hit and damage according to the spell description, but I don't know if that's accurate. Bless will stack with Chant, and Chant should stack with the Cat's Claw.

    JuliusBorisovPteranlolienStummvonBordwehr
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 716
    edited April 2017
    Very useful information and well presented, thanks!
    Now PT:EE is out. Does Luck there work as in other Beamdog games?
    I see that in this game the spell Luck uses the cumulative Luck opcode 22. It's pretty good for a spell that gives 2 to 8 points!
    Now, the spell description says it affects Thieving Skills and Saving Throws. Is it the case? Or could it affect rolls without modifying said values?

  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 426
    edited November 2017
    @semiticgod
    If it's opcode 22, it won't stack with the Luck spell (or the Lucky Scimitar if you somehow imported that from Icewind Dale), but it will stack with anything else. If it's opcode 133, it will stack with all other forms of luck.

    There are two kinds of luck, opcode 22 and opcode 133. The ONLY difference between them is that 22 stacks, and 133 does not. The Luck spell (and the Lucky Scimitar in IWD) both use opcode 133 and do not stack; all other sources of luck use opcode 22, and stack.


    Sorry I'm confused. On one side it says "opcode 133, it will stack with all other forms of luck", on the other side it's "opcode 22, it won't stack with the Luck spell (opcode 133)", and "133 does not (stack)".

    Could you elaborate, thanks.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,574
    I misspoke.

    Opcode 133 doesn't stack with itself. Opcode 22 does stack with itself. They can, however, stack with each other. Chant works just like luck and does not stack with itself, though it does stack with other forms of luck.

    Let's say you have:

    1. A Ring of Luck +2 with opcode 133
    2. A Sword of Luck +1 with opcode 133 (like the Lucky Scimitar)
    3. A Belt of Luck +2 with opcode 22
    4. A Helm of Luck +1 with opcode 22
    5. A Cloak of Chant +2
    6. A Shield of Chant +1

    The ring bonus would override the sword bonus, and the cloak bonus would override the shield bonus, but the rest of them would stack. The total effective luck bonus would be +7. Of that, 2 would come from opcode 133, 3 would come from opcode 22, and 2 would come from the chant opcode.

    islandkinglolien
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,743
    Does Luck work to win money at Nashkel Carnival?

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,674
    edited December 2017
    rede9 said:

    Does Luck work to win money at Nashkel Carnival?

    No

    JuliusBorisov
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,835
    elminster said:

    rede9 said:

    Does Luck work to win money at Nashkel Carnival?

    No
    BECAUSE ITS RIGGED

    Shandaxxelminster
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,743
    edited December 2017
    ThacoBell said:

    elminster said:

    rede9 said:

    Does Luck work to win money at Nashkel Carnival?

    No
    BECAUSE ITS RIGGED
    What is rigged? The Game or the spell?

    Post edited by rede9 on
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,743
    edited January 9
    Can a bard copy himself (simulacrum...) to stack song luck bonus? How many copies are summonable?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,835
    rede9 said:

    ThacoBell said:

    elminster said:

    rede9 said:

    Does Luck work to win money at Nashkel Carnival?

    No
    BECAUSE ITS RIGGED
    What is rigged? The Game or the spell?

    Why not both?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,081
    rede9 said:

    Can a bard copy himself (simulacrum...) to stack song luck bonus? How many copies are summonable?

    I believe Bard Song doesn't stack. (Different songs do, i.e. Skald Song + True Bard Song. But not True Bard Song x2.)

    Anyway the basic song already gives +3 Luck which is already outrageous.

    semiticgodProontThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,324

    Anyway the basic song already gives +3 Luck which is already outrageous.

    Certainly handy, though I'm not sure it's outrageous. The bonus starts at +1 and goes to +2 at level 15 and +3 at level 20. That progression seems reasonable considering the availability of the Enhanced Bard Song as an HLA at level 24.

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehr
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,743
    edited January 10

    rede9 said:

    Can a bard copy himself (simulacrum...) to stack song luck bonus? How many copies are summonable?

    I believe Bard Song doesn't stack.
    I'm quite sure Bard Song stacks in vanilla game. Maybe it stacks no more in EE because it is OP.

    Post edited by rede9 on
    Grond0semiticgod
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,743
    edited January 10
    rede9 said:

    rede9 said:

    Can a bard copy himself (simulacrum...) to stack song luck bonus? How many copies are summonable?

    I believe Bard Song doesn't stack.
    I'm quite sure Bard Song stacks in vanilla game. Maybe it stacks no more in EE because it is OP.
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/190513/#Comment_190513
    This user explains he summoned 5 bard clones in BG2 vanilla and 6 Enhanced Song stacked: +20 AC, +20 THAC0, +20 damages, +25 magic res, etc.
    Does it work in BG2ee?

  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 177
    Grond0 said:

    Anyway the basic song already gives +3 Luck which is already outrageous.

    Certainly handy, though I'm not sure it's outrageous. The bonus starts at +1 and goes to +2 at level 15 and +3 at level 20. That progression seems reasonable considering the availability of the Enhanced Bard Song as an HLA at level 24.
    I really wish that regular bard song also game -1/-2/-3 luck to enemies within range. That would make it amazing for spell caster focued group and competetive with epic song. But then again, maybe would be OP considering how much -1 luck from chant already provides.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,081
    edited January 10
    rede9 said:

    rede9 said:

    Can a bard copy himself (simulacrum...) to stack song luck bonus? How many copies are summonable?

    I believe Bard Song doesn't stack.
    I'm quite sure Bard Song stacks in vanilla game. Maybe it stacks no more in EE because it is OP.
    Yes but in the original game the basic Bard Song did not include any Luck bonus IIRC, so it was a much less powerful effect stacking with itself. I believe people who have run the numbers more carefully than I have expressed a preference for the basic non-stacking +3 Luck Bard Song over the Skald Song and the Enhanced Song and anything else.

    +3 Luck applied to companions wielding any d4 or d6 weapon is functionally equivalent to having permanent Kai, doing max damage constantly, for the whole party. Plus they will take minimum or close to minimum damage from every damaging spell. A 10d6 Fireball will do an average of like 15 damage, or 7.5 on a successful save.

    Basically, from my reading and playing, +1 Luck is good, +2 Luck is extremely good, and +3 Luck is wildly OP. Undispellable permanent +3 Luck to 5 people at once is a hair's breadth away from Story Mode.

    (In my Bard Song mod I have lots of Bard songs... the Luck Song never gives more than +1 Luck, but the bard can cast or attack while singing it.)

    semiticgodThacoBellJuliusBorisovProont
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