When I had one character with +20 luck attack a character with 0 luck, the former did 16 crushing damage and 5d6 acid damage. When both characters had +20 luck, the former did 12 crushing damage and 5 acid damage. It should have dealt 12 crushing damage each time. So it seems like there's an opposing roll for luck, in that the defender's luck can cancel out the attackers luck, but only for physical damage. But since enemies in the IE games don't have any positive luck effects and your party members won't attack each other unless they're charmed (which prevents them from benefiting from bard song luck), this should almost never become relevant unless somebody mods an enemy to get luck.
That sounds worrying indeed. There are many things that might explain that difference (16-12) if the circumstances change, like what kjeron suggested. But if you confirm that the circumstances are identical (except for the change in luck, of course), that definitely suggests that luck does something that we're not aware of. Looking forward to hearing what comes from your testing.
By the way, I don't think it's irrelevant at all. In SCS half of your foes use Chant, which means that they do have a luck bonus. So it looks like a pretty common and relevant situation.
2. When I had one character with +20 luck attack a character with 0 luck, the former did 16 crushing damage and 5d6 acid damage. When both characters had +20 luck, the former did 12 crushing damage and 5 acid damage. It should have dealt 12 crushing damage each time. So it seems like there's an opposing roll for luck, in that the defender's luck can cancel out the attackers luck, but only for physical damage.
Was the one getting attacked at 0 luck unarmed? That would account for the +4 damage.
@Alonso: I just tested it. Disconfirmed. Apparently equipping a missile weapon is responsible for the +4 damage (I thought a custom throwing spear was a melee weapon). So there is no opposed roll for Chant; it has no impact on incoming physical damage.
Only one question left: In your list of luck sources you don’t mention intoxication. Was it an oversight or does it mean that intoxication doesn’t affect luck?
@Alonso: Looks like intoxication goes from 0 to 100. It grants penalties to luck and bonuses to morale:
0-49 intoxication: no bonuses or penalties. 50-59 intoxication: -2 luck and +2 morale. 60-69 intoxication: -4 luck and +4 morale. 70-79 intoxication: -6 luck and +6 morale. 80-89 intoxication: -8 luck and +8 morale. 90-99 intoxication: -10 luck and +10 morale. 100 intoxication: -12 luck and +12 morale.
That's from the INTOXMOD.2da file. Here's the INTOXCON.2da file: I don't really know, but I think "intoxication rate" means how much each drink adds to your intoxication based on your Constitution. Thus, a character with 18 CON will only get 7 intoxication per drink, while a character with 3 CON will get 66. I'm guess "recovery rate" means the number of rounds it takes for intoxication to hit zero, or the number of seconds it takes for intoxication to go down by 1.
There's not really any time or place when the morale bonus would outweigh the luck penalty, even if you didn't have access to Remove/Resist Fear.
The only source of intoxication outside of a tavern is one of the negative Wish results. It increases intoxication by 100 for 1200 seconds (200 rounds), which means everyone who gets hit suffers -12 luck. It is dispellable and though it bypasses magic resistance and offers no saving throw, it can be blocked by Spell Immunity: Enchantment and possibly Minor Globe of Invulnerability, as it is a level 3 Enchantment spell.
If is dispellable and is possible to protect party members with mage spells than is potentially one of the strongest choices of the Wish spell, even more in a party where every member is also arcane caster, in each area with no neutral characters. 20 turns of -12 luck, bypassing MR and with no save, to each enemy in the area is a crazy bonus. If the choice of the limited wish to have the party protected from magic now protects against the wish intoxication even better, casting the 2 spells right after entering an area is potentially the strongest combination of 2 spells of the whole game.
@gorgonzola: Aside from imposing a -12 THAC0 penalty on enemies and reducing base damage rolls to the minimum (though not affecting damage bonuses from STR and so forth), and therefore crippling enemy damage output, it would also increase the party's spell damage.
The difference is especially pronounced among spells that use higher dice to roll damage. A -12 luck bonus would mean: 1d4 spells like Magic Missile, Holy Smite, and Incendiary Cloud: +60% damage 1d6 spells like Agannazar's Scorcher, Flame Arrow, Skull Trap, and Sunfire: +71% damage 1d8 spells like Flame Strike and Horrid Wilting: +78% damage 1d10 spells like Dragon's Breath and Comet: +82% damage
The only source of intoxication outside of a tavern is one of the negative Wish results. It increases intoxication by 100 for 1200 seconds (200 rounds), which means everyone who gets hit suffers -12 luck. It is dispellable and though it bypasses magic resistance and offers no saving throw, it can be blocked by Spell Immunity: Enchantment and possibly Minor Globe of Invulnerability, as it is a level 3 Enchantment spell.
@semiticgod and anybody else interested: Thank you for all the clarifications. I have edited the first post of this thread to make it a mini article that describes luck. Please have a look and let me know if you find anything wrong so I can correct it.
@semiticgod perhaps this was answered earlier in the thread and I didn't see it. If I have an item equipped that adds Luck, such as the Cat's Claw sword from RR, does that stack with other sources of Luck? Could I combine it with other items that grant Luck (of which I know none lol) or the Luck spell? How would that interact with spells like Bless, which grant effects similar to Luck?
@Pteran: I don't know which opcode the Cat's Claw uses (you can check it using Near Infinity). If it's opcode 22, it won't stack with the Luck spell (or the Lucky Scimitar if you somehow imported that from Icewind Dale), but it will stack with anything else. If it's opcode 133, it will stack with all other forms of luck.
Bless does not grant effects similar to luck. Chant does, and is effectively just luck plus some saving throw bonuses on top. Bless just grants +1 to hit and damage according to the spell description, but I don't know if that's accurate. Bless will stack with Chant, and Chant should stack with the Cat's Claw.
Very useful information and well presented, thanks! Now PT:EE is out. Does Luck there work as in other Beamdog games? I see that in this game the spell Luck uses the cumulative Luck opcode 22. It's pretty good for a spell that gives 2 to 8 points! Now, the spell description says it affects Thieving Skills and Saving Throws. Is it the case? Or could it affect rolls without modifying said values?
If it's opcode 22, it won't stack with the Luck spell (or the Lucky Scimitar if you somehow imported that from Icewind Dale), but it will stack with anything else. If it's opcode 133, it will stack with all other forms of luck.
There are two kinds of luck, opcode 22 and opcode 133. The ONLY difference between them is that 22 stacks, and 133 does not. The Luck spell (and the Lucky Scimitar in IWD) both use opcode 133 and do not stack; all other sources of luck use opcode 22, and stack.
Sorry I'm confused. On one side it says "opcode 133, it will stack with all other forms of luck", on the other side it's "opcode 22, it won't stack with the Luck spell (opcode 133)", and "133 does not (stack)".
Opcode 133 doesn't stack with itself. Opcode 22 does stack with itself. They can, however, stack with each other. Chant works just like luck and does not stack with itself, though it does stack with other forms of luck.
Let's say you have:
1. A Ring of Luck +2 with opcode 133 2. A Sword of Luck +1 with opcode 133 (like the Lucky Scimitar) 3. A Belt of Luck +2 with opcode 22 4. A Helm of Luck +1 with opcode 22 5. A Cloak of Chant +2 6. A Shield of Chant +1
The ring bonus would override the sword bonus, and the cloak bonus would override the shield bonus, but the rest of them would stack. The total effective luck bonus would be +7. Of that, 2 would come from opcode 133, 3 would come from opcode 22, and 2 would come from the chant opcode.
Anyway the basic song already gives +3 Luck which is already outrageous.
Certainly handy, though I'm not sure it's outrageous. The bonus starts at +1 and goes to +2 at level 15 and +3 at level 20. That progression seems reasonable considering the availability of the Enhanced Bard Song as an HLA at level 24.
Anyway the basic song already gives +3 Luck which is already outrageous.
Certainly handy, though I'm not sure it's outrageous. The bonus starts at +1 and goes to +2 at level 15 and +3 at level 20. That progression seems reasonable considering the availability of the Enhanced Bard Song as an HLA at level 24.
I really wish that regular bard song also game -1/-2/-3 luck to enemies within range. That would make it amazing for spell caster focued group and competetive with epic song. But then again, maybe would be OP considering how much -1 luck from chant already provides.
For +3 luck to be preferable to the Enhanced Bard Song your party would need to be taking a lot of incoming damage spells and not much of any other sort of spell and also do very little physical combat. That wouldn't be the case for any of my parties.
In terms of weapon damage the Enhanced gives +4 to both THAC0 and damage. How much better that is than +3 luck depends on the weapon damage die, but it's always better. For a weapon doing d8, +3 luck will push average damage per hit up from 4.5 to 6.75 (compared to 8.5 for the Enhanced) and also have a lower chance to hit in the first place. In addition the Enhanced Song gives a +4 bonus to the party AC (+10 to the bard) and immunity to normal weapons, which significantly reduces incoming weapon damage (which luck does not affect).
In terms of spell damage luck would usually be preferable. As @subtledoctor says this would reduce average damage per die of a fireball from 3.5 to 1.5 (or 50% of that if saves are made). The enhanced bard song gives no damage reduction directly, but does give 5% MR (10% for the bard) which will provide a small reduction in damage indirectly.
For save or else spells, however, luck has no effect. The Enhanced Song has the MR benefit against nearly all spells and in addition total immunity to fear, stun and confusion - which are common disablers that in my experience are more likely to get a party into trouble than direct damage spells.
Comments
By the way, I don't think it's irrelevant at all. In SCS half of your foes use Chant, which means that they do have a luck bonus. So it looks like a pretty common and relevant situation.
Only one question left: In your list of luck sources you don’t mention intoxication. Was it an oversight or does it mean that intoxication doesn’t affect luck?
0-49 intoxication: no bonuses or penalties.
50-59 intoxication: -2 luck and +2 morale.
60-69 intoxication: -4 luck and +4 morale.
70-79 intoxication: -6 luck and +6 morale.
80-89 intoxication: -8 luck and +8 morale.
90-99 intoxication: -10 luck and +10 morale.
100 intoxication: -12 luck and +12 morale.
That's from the INTOXMOD.2da file. Here's the INTOXCON.2da file:
I don't really know, but I think "intoxication rate" means how much each drink adds to your intoxication based on your Constitution. Thus, a character with 18 CON will only get 7 intoxication per drink, while a character with 3 CON will get 66. I'm guess "recovery rate" means the number of rounds it takes for intoxication to hit zero, or the number of seconds it takes for intoxication to go down by 1.
There's not really any time or place when the morale bonus would outweigh the luck penalty, even if you didn't have access to Remove/Resist Fear.
The only source of intoxication outside of a tavern is one of the negative Wish results. It increases intoxication by 100 for 1200 seconds (200 rounds), which means everyone who gets hit suffers -12 luck. It is dispellable and though it bypasses magic resistance and offers no saving throw, it can be blocked by Spell Immunity: Enchantment and possibly Minor Globe of Invulnerability, as it is a level 3 Enchantment spell.
20 turns of -12 luck, bypassing MR and with no save, to each enemy in the area is a crazy bonus.
If the choice of the limited wish to have the party protected from magic now protects against the wish intoxication even better, casting the 2 spells right after entering an area is potentially the strongest combination of 2 spells of the whole game.
The difference is especially pronounced among spells that use higher dice to roll damage. A -12 luck bonus would mean:
1d4 spells like Magic Missile, Holy Smite, and Incendiary Cloud: +60% damage
1d6 spells like Agannazar's Scorcher, Flame Arrow, Skull Trap, and Sunfire: +71% damage
1d8 spells like Flame Strike and Horrid Wilting: +78% damage
1d10 spells like Dragon's Breath and Comet: +82% damage
Note that Slow Poison and Heal can both cure intoxication.
Bless does not grant effects similar to luck. Chant does, and is effectively just luck plus some saving throw bonuses on top. Bless just grants +1 to hit and damage according to the spell description, but I don't know if that's accurate. Bless will stack with Chant, and Chant should stack with the Cat's Claw.
Now PT:EE is out. Does Luck there work as in other Beamdog games?
I see that in this game the spell Luck uses the cumulative Luck opcode 22. It's pretty good for a spell that gives 2 to 8 points!
Now, the spell description says it affects Thieving Skills and Saving Throws. Is it the case? Or could it affect rolls without modifying said values?
Sorry I'm confused. On one side it says "opcode 133, it will stack with all other forms of luck", on the other side it's "opcode 22, it won't stack with the Luck spell (opcode 133)", and "133 does not (stack)".
Could you elaborate, thanks.
Opcode 133 doesn't stack with itself. Opcode 22 does stack with itself. They can, however, stack with each other. Chant works just like luck and does not stack with itself, though it does stack with other forms of luck.
Let's say you have:
1. A Ring of Luck +2 with opcode 133
2. A Sword of Luck +1 with opcode 133 (like the Lucky Scimitar)
3. A Belt of Luck +2 with opcode 22
4. A Helm of Luck +1 with opcode 22
5. A Cloak of Chant +2
6. A Shield of Chant +1
The ring bonus would override the sword bonus, and the cloak bonus would override the shield bonus, but the rest of them would stack. The total effective luck bonus would be +7. Of that, 2 would come from opcode 133, 3 would come from opcode 22, and 2 would come from the chant opcode.
This user explains he summoned 5 bard clones in BG2 vanilla and 6 Enhanced Song stacked: +20 AC, +20 THAC0, +20 damages, +25 magic res, etc.
Does it work in BG2ee?
In terms of weapon damage the Enhanced gives +4 to both THAC0 and damage. How much better that is than +3 luck depends on the weapon damage die, but it's always better. For a weapon doing d8, +3 luck will push average damage per hit up from 4.5 to 6.75 (compared to 8.5 for the Enhanced) and also have a lower chance to hit in the first place. In addition the Enhanced Song gives a +4 bonus to the party AC (+10 to the bard) and immunity to normal weapons, which significantly reduces incoming weapon damage (which luck does not affect).
In terms of spell damage luck would usually be preferable. As @subtledoctor says this would reduce average damage per die of a fireball from 3.5 to 1.5 (or 50% of that if saves are made). The enhanced bard song gives no damage reduction directly, but does give 5% MR (10% for the bard) which will provide a small reduction in damage indirectly.
For save or else spells, however, luck has no effect. The Enhanced Song has the MR benefit against nearly all spells and in addition total immunity to fear, stun and confusion - which are common disablers that in my experience are more likely to get a party into trouble than direct damage spells.