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Luck: What it is and how it works

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Comments

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,809
    Grond0 said:

    For save or else spells, however, luck has no effect. The Enhanced Song has the MR benefit against nearly all spells and in addition total immunity to fear, stun and confusion - which are common disablers that in my experience are more likely to get a party into trouble than direct damage spells.

    Hmm, I though basic bard song had save bonuses as well. But a look at the files shows not. So that's a bit in favor of it not being absurd. Though there is still the question of opportunity cost, given that the Enhanced Song requires you to spend an HLA.

    Ah, I'll probably never play with umodded bard songs anyway, so whatever.

    Grond0
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,558
    edited January 12
    What happens if a caster has a luck bonus and a target a luck malus? Is damage increased twice?

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    rede9 said:

    What happens if a caster has a luck bonus and a target a luck malus? Is damage increased twice?

    Luck malus doesn't influence physical damage received, luck bonus doesn't increase magic damage dealt.

    semiticgod
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,809
    rede9 said:

    What happens if a caster has a luck bonus and a target a luck malus? Is damage increased twice?

    Positive Luck (for you): bonus to weapon damage, reduced damage taken from spells

    Negative Luck (for them): reduced weapon damage, increased damage taken from spells.

    So both together add up to a uniform effect. (That's what Chant does.)

    semiticgodrede9
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,558

    rede9 said:

    What happens if a caster has a luck bonus and a target a luck malus? Is damage increased twice?

    Positive Luck (for you): bonus to weapon damage, reduced damage taken from spells

    Negative Luck (for them): reduced weapon damage, increased damage taken from spells.

    So both together add up to a uniform effect. (That's what Chant does.)
    I see.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,516
    edited January 13
    rede9 said:

    rede9 said:

    rede9 said:

    Can a bard copy himself (simulacrum...) to stack song luck bonus? How many copies are summonable?

    I believe Bard Song doesn't stack.
    I'm quite sure Bard Song stacks in vanilla game. Maybe it stacks no more in EE because it is OP.
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/190513/#Comment_190513
    This user explains he summoned 5 bard clones in BG2 vanilla and 6 Enhanced Song stacked: +20 AC, +20 THAC0, +20 damages, +25 magic res, etc.
    Does it work in BG2ee?




    As is told is no more possible.
    about it being OP... is it more OP than an infinite loop of PI recharging the spells needed via spell trap and bombing enemy under TS, with RoV, AoP, and IA, dropping on the enemy infinite copies of the spell book by mage or sorc? The exploit of having 2 PI doing it at the same time has been nerfed, but using only one, or a PI and a simulacrum is still very possible.
    I can write of many other OP things that other classes, multi and duals can perform.

    All those, the bard one included, are completely optional, player's choice.

    About the bard one i can tell you that in original game i did much more, all the party was on a permanent +80 AC, +80 THAC0, +80 damages, +100 magic res using simulacrum, PI by the sim from quick slot scrolls and misleads from sim and PI, while a sorcerer was recharging constantly the helm spamming wishes with his PI. :)
    mine was a test, no fun in playing all the game like that, but potentially was possible to run the whole game from some point of chap2 like that.

    I really dislike the EE implementation of bards for some reasons, and to not be able to experiment exploits like that is the least of those. I don't see a single reason why having 2 bards in the party their songs should not stack. I see the reason why the improved song now does no more cover the whole area, hiding the bard and his clones behind a closed door and benefit was a lame thing and now is no more possible. but the area affected by the improved song now is way to small, is almost impossible to have all the party benefit of it in most of the situations, you have to choose if to have your mlee or your casters/ranged affected by the song. the way that the song is triggered in EE make also a nightmare to have him sing and attack, while a caster can still easily use cast and attack strategy.

    in the old times of original bard was often accused to be good at many things, but really good at nothing, and inferior to other alternatives like FT, FM, FMT. it was not so, even without using exploits like the one i told, that could make him the most powerful class. now it is, the only real advantage of bard is the fast progression, so better Dispel Magic and level dependent spells, and this advantage vanishes about half way BG2, if not before.

    as i play both original and EE now i don't play bards in EE any more and have almost always 1 of them in the party in original. cause i really love bards, for RP reasons and game mechanics. I will probably try the @subtledoctor bard mod in the future, but no more vanilla bards in EE for me, i suffer too much seeing how they have been nerfed.

    sorry for the wall of text, is only that... i love(d) bards so much.

    Grond0Proont
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,558
    edited January 14
    Does luck help to have good effect with PST Axe of the Jester?
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/911950/#Comment_911950

    Post edited by rede9 on
  • LoldrupLoldrup Member Posts: 206
    Alonso said:

    Bard Song (unkitted): +1 luck at level 1, +2 at level 15, +3 at level 20.

    Huh, I thought it gave immunity to fear. When did that change?
    Party wide luck +1 seems quite awesome! Party wide luck +3 seems quite OP...

  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,558
    edited February 3
    What about IWD Tempus cleric's Chaos of Battle? Does it stack with chant?
    If so, I could create a biclass Tempus/mage to cast Chaos then a Spell trigger Doom+Chant+Great Malison.

  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 64
    edited March 30
    Alonso said:


    IWD2

    Apart from the effects listed for the other games, in IWD2 luck also affects critical hit and critical miss chances (so in our previous example our warrior does make a critical when he rolls 19). That's especially useful because (1) nothing is immune to critical hits in IWD2, and (2) hammers, halberds, spears, arrows, and axes deal triple damage rather than double damage on critical hits.
    Actually, many types of mobs are immune to critical damage in IWD2. At least on HoF mode. Slayers-knights, almost all undeads, golems, elementals, oozes, Iyachtu Xvim Avatar, Twins.
    Alonso said:


    Icewind Dale 2

    Luck spell: +1 luck.
    Tymora's Melody: +1 luck, +3 to saving throws, +2 to thief skills, Alchemy, and Knowledge (Arcana).
    Tymora's Loop (extremely rare random drop): +3 luck.
    Breaking the mirror in the Ice Temple: -20 luck.
    Chant: Unknown.
    Also on HoF mode you can get another powerful luckboosting item, "Young Ned's Knucky", it gives +2 to Luck, +2 to Saving Throws. It can be retrived with help of Finger of Death from Jemeliah in Deirdre Gallaway shop.

    Post edited by Firecrow on
    semiticgodProontStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,002
    @Firecrow: I've been playing IWD2 for a while now, but I only very, very recently noticed that certain critters were immune to critical hits. It wasn't a single month ago when I thought critical hit immunity didn't even exist! I only realized it was there when I was trying to deal damage to golems with high damage resistance and realized that I wasn't landing any of the criticals I needed to hurt them.

    I believe Tyrannar Brutai Mar is the only potential source of Tymora's Loop. I've only seen the item a single time in-game, and only by repeatedly save-scumming at the fight with Tyrannar Brutai Mar. It's kind of mythical, isn't it?

    I love Young Ned's Knucky. Destruction also has a chance of nailing Jemeliah, but it's very unreliable. A HoF guide on GameFAQs said that pickpocketing it was impossible, and noted that using Disintegrate on Jemeliah would turn the whole town hostile even if it worked.

    Theoretically, it may be possible to avoid turning the town hostile if you one-shot Jemeliah with a physical attack or maybe a pure damage spell, but I've never tried it because it's very luck-dependent. If it is possible, song stacking for +20 to damage and +20 to luck should let you get a guaranteed kill on Jemeliah with an arrow, provided you had an additional +7 to damage from someplace to deal 96+ damage total. But that requires using an exploit.

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBellFirecrow
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,002
    @Firecrow: Your English is excellent!

    Looks like I'm on patch 2.01 (101615), whatever that means. But I'm playing with a very heavily modded game, with Tactics4IWD2, IWD2Tweaks, and Light of Selune installed, and I don't know all of the specifics behind each mod and what it does.

    By the way, welcome to the forums! I notice you only joined 3 hours ago. There's a special badge called the Combo Breaker Badge you can earn if you get 5 badges in a single day, and it's usually only possible for people who have just joined the forums, since the earlier badges are easier to come back. It's well past impossible for old-timers like me. Try and grab it!

    Firecrow
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 64
    edited March 27
    Thanks.) Light of Selune quite interesting, but it has many bugs. Also it weaks many mobs, if you instal it after Tactics4IWD2. Don't know about if install Tactics after LoS. Maybe you has some lack of critical damage immune mobs becouse LoS. My first post about critical hits was for unmodded 2.01.

    Post edited by Firecrow on
    Grond0PaulGreystokeProont
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,558
    Does Luck work with wounds?

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,002
    @rede9? You mean, the bleeding wound effect from IWD2? No, luck doesn't impact that at all; bleeding wounds deal a set amount of damage (though Tymora's Melody's save bonuses might help against the bleeding wound effects that offer a saving throw). Or do you mean something else?

  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,558

    @rede9? You mean, the bleeding wound effect from IWD2? No, luck doesn't impact that at all; bleeding wounds deal a set amount of damage (though Tymora's Melody's save bonuses might help against the bleeding wound effects that offer a saving throw). Or do you mean something else?

    Sorry, I meant Wands. For example, should I use Wand of Magic Missiles with Alora?

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,002
    @rede9: Luck only impacts incoming spell damage and outgoing physical damage. If Alora uses a Wand of Magic Missiles, it will deal just as much damage as if anyone else used it. Alora will, however, take less damage from enemy Magic Missile spells. Likewise, she's a little bit safer from your party's own Fireballs because of her luck.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • CashewCashew Member Posts: 12
    i've been playing these games since highschool, and I only just now understand what luck does. I might use the related spells and abilities more often now.

  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 817

    Basically, from my reading and playing, +1 Luck is good, +2 Luck is extremely good, and +3 Luck is wildly OP. Undispellable permanent +3 Luck to 5 people at once is a hair's breadth away from Story Mode.

    (In my Bard Song mod I have lots of Bard songs... the Luck Song never gives more than +1 Luck, but the bard can cast or attack while singing it.)

    A couple months late to this, but with the way Luck works, the +1 luck boost is almost always strictly inferior to a straight +1 boost. For instance, consider a regular 1d8 longsword. A +1 damage boost increases every roll by one. A +1 luck boost increases every roll by one *except for an eight*. As a result, the former boosts average damage by 1, while the latter boosts average damage by 7/8s. The smaller the die being rolled, the farther luck falls behind a straight boost.

    Additionally, cranking luck super-high is less impressive because Luck is one of the few boosts that suffers from diminishing returns. Using the long sword example, adding +1 luck improves seven out of eight possible rolls for a +7/8 damage boost. Adding another +1 luck now only improves six out of eight possible rolls, (because the 8 is already maxed, and the 7 was already maxed out under +1 luck), for a boost of 6/8 damage per hit. Another +1 luck grants 5/8ths extra damage per hit, and so on. Eventually, when you reach +7 luck, you could add +1,000,000 more luck and it wouldn't increase damage in the slightest. (Again, this depends on the size of the dice being rolled; a dagger caps out at +3 luck, one of the special d12 two-handed swords keeps getting progressively smaller bonuses all the way up through +11 luck, and for chance-to-hit purposes you could theoretically continue benefitting by smaller and smaller amounts all the way up to +19 luck.)

    The usefulness of Luck mostly stems from the sheer number of aspects it affects-- to hit, damage, spell damage received, thief skills, etc. But the enhanced bard song also affects a whole suite of rolls and doesn't suffer from diminishing returns, so it's pretty strictly superior.

    Luck does retain two trump cards, however. First, it's the only effect that reduces incoming spell damage (other than the appropriate flavor of resistance, I suppose). Second, any time you're rolling multiple dice at once, you're benefitting from its bonus multiple times. So, for instance, if you give Alora (unique ring with +2 luck) the Staff Mace (deals 2d4+2 damage), the average damage increases from 7 to 9.5, a +2.5 boost that's greater than Alora's +2 luck. (Aside: give her a strength booster and Alora with the Staff Mace is a beastly backstabber. She hits maximum damage rolls 56% of the time, her minimum is only 2 points lower than her maximum, and there's only a 6% chance she hits the minimum, anyway. Super, super consistent.)

    Also, the ability to effectively increase critical threat ranges in IWD2 is pretty stupidly broken.

    StummvonBordwehrGrond0semiticgod
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,809
    I get that +1 damage is better than +1 Luck, for damage. When I talk about Luck being valuable it's mostly this:
    SomeSort said:

    Luck does retain two trump cards, however. First, it's the only effect that reduces incoming spell damage

    BG2 being what it is, this is hugely valuable there.

    Consider a thief in IWDEE. You can get your luck up to +2 or +3 I think. So you get a saving throw to avoid any damage, another save for half damage if the first save fails, and the total amount if damage on which the calculation is based is already cut in half. A thief can pretty much ignore magical attacks by an invoker-type like Malavon, and just walk up and poke him with a dagger.

    And since I brought IWD Evasion over to BG2EE, I can do the same thing to Tolgerias. :wink:

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,381


    And since I brought IWD Evasion over to BG2EE, I can do the same thing to Tolgerias. :wink:

    wait, which one of your mods does that?

  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,558
    edited April 23
    rede9 said:

    What about IWD Tempus cleric's Chaos of Battle? Does it stack with chant?
    If so, I could create a biclass Tempus/mage to cast Chaos then a Spell trigger Doom+Chant+Great Malison.

    Tempus kit has been added to BGee and Branwen has been converted.
    Does Chaos of battle stack with Chant to buff allies and debuff enemies luck?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,809
    lroumen said:


    And since I brought IWD Evasion over to BG2EE, I can do the same thing to Tolgerias. :wink:

    wait, which one of your mods does that?
    Might & Guile, as part of the larger feat system. I've also just proposed a new component for IWDification to bring Evasion over in the vanilla IWD fashion.

    StummvonBordwehrlroumenPaulGreystoke
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 817

    I get that +1 damage is better than +1 Luck, for damage. When I talk about Luck being valuable it's mostly this:

    SomeSort said:

    Luck does retain two trump cards, however. First, it's the only effect that reduces incoming spell damage

    BG2 being what it is, this is hugely valuable there.

    Consider a thief in IWDEE. You can get your luck up to +2 or +3 I think. So you get a saving throw to avoid any damage, another save for half damage if the first save fails, and the total amount if damage on which the calculation is based is already cut in half. A thief can pretty much ignore magical attacks by an invoker-type like Malavon, and just walk up and poke him with a dagger.

    And since I brought IWD Evasion over to BG2EE, I can do the same thing to Tolgerias. :wink:
    I would tend to think that things like Evasion and Shorty Saves would make luck less, rather than more, valuable, though. At least for me, I feel physical damage is a much greater threat than magical damage in BG2, (especially with attendant effects like INT- and level-drain), and that the most dangerous spells and spell-like effects are disproportionately unlikely to deal any damage at all, (horror, hold, chaos, finger of death, etc.)

    On a shorty with solid saves, the difference between +2 luck and +3 luck is maybe they take 3 fewer damage per fireball, on average. (For a character who is guaranteed to fail every save, it's a reduction of 5 damage). If that shorty has Evasion, the average reduction is probably more on the order of 0.5-1 points of damage per fireball. Given the relative infrequency of fireballs in the game, this hardly seems "wildly OP".

    semiticgod
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,809
    edited April 25
    SomeSort said:

    I would tend to think that things like Evasion and Shorty Saves would make luck less, rather than more, valuable, though.

    I was not making a claim on the comparative value of one vs. another there; I was pointing out that thieves are uniquely able to "layer on" the combined effects. Yeah good saves might be better than good Luck... but good saves + good Luck + Evasion is like walking around with a permanent fireproof (and cold-proof, and shock-proof, etc.) blanket.
    SomeSort said:

    the difference between +2 luck and +3 luck ... hardly seems "wildly OP".

    No one said the difference between 2 Luck and 3 Luck is wildly OP. I said +3 Luck is OP compared to +0 Luck. At least, I was convinced of that by someone else, at some point in the past.

    +3 Luck with daggers or war hammers is like permanent Kai, with max damage and +3 to attack rolls. Even with weapons that do 1d6 damage, the average roll will be 5.5, which is damn near max damage.

    The average damage from a 10th level Fireball will be 15 on a failed save, or 7 on a successful save. Compared to 35/17. For a maxed-out ADHW, it's 42/21 vs. 90/45.

    Basically it's like ~60% resistance against every elemental damage type, plus to-hit bonuses, plus max damage on hit.

    Point being, the effect is outsize relative to its magnitude. What other application of a single +3 gives you all that?? It's just something that should be taken into account when deciding "hmm, should I use opcode 22 in this item?" A Luck bonus is comparatively overpowered, relative to an equivalent thac0 bonus or damage bonus or save bonus or AC bonus, etc.

    (The source of my education here is my mod that grants a Luck bonus for high CHA scores. People explained thus stuff to me in order to make me understand that +3 is quite powerful, probably too powerful for a permanent stat-based effect that can be combined with other sources.)

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,809
    lroumen said:


    And since I brought IWD Evasion over to BG2EE, I can do the same thing to Tolgerias. :wink:

    wait, which one of your mods does that?
    EDIT - here you go.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,381
    Thanks, much appreciated.

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