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The Thruth: Druid/shaman Spells Sucks in Baldur's Gate

2

Comments

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 372
    If you think druids are weak, this is your opinion, maybe never played it well. Druids have strong spells higher levels, nice hla forms etc. And there is a mod in the mod section in this forum to apply iwd druid spells, so you can use a lots of awesome spells now in bg, bg2. I tried this mod and works well.

    If i search for a weak class, single classed assasins are weak, and its a pity to call smthing assasin, who barely can kill anything, the stalker is the real assasin.
    thespace
  • IrbisIrbis Member Posts: 49
    Danacm said:


    If i search for a weak class, single classed assasins are weak, and its a pity to call smthing assasin, who barely can kill anything, the stalker is the real assasin.

    Huh? What? Traps+NoSave Poison+High Backstab+1dmg/thac0 bonus you call weak? I've solo'ed both games with Assasin and that was one of the easiest Soloing I ever did.

    ThacoBell
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 372
    @Irbis the nerfed poison weapon is so weak. Spam traps are not so elegant style of play you are right, traps are powerhouse but its not because assasin, every thief has traps. The high backstab is reached so late, and you can kill mobs with it, but lot of important creatures are immune to it. The main problem is thaco, that you cant hit somebody like an archetype assasin, who come from shadows and kill one hit. Shadowdancer is better for backstab i feel now.
    thespace
  • DullSkullTheSecondDullSkullTheSecond Member Posts: 239
    Druid is my favorite class and I agree, their spell selection is horrible with some exceptions like the bug spells and nature's beauty(pretty much an "I win" spell against many foes). IWD spells are amazing for druid and I really don't get why they haven't been ported. That was one of my big hopes along with the kits when IWDee was announced.
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    edited November 2016
    The true strength of Druid is not the spells. It is not the abilities. It is not anything like that.
    The true strength of the Druid is the 13 levels of fighter backing it. Look at the XP table and look at the total XP Druids require to get to level 14.
    Skatan
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,546

    Ah. I'll admit, my knowledge of pre-3e D&D is... well... non-existent. Now Fighters and Rangers I can sort of understand, but Bards? Mages? That seems very anti-Druid. Or is it they're allowed to multi-class if they lose the ability to continue as a druid?

    You could think of Merlin as a wizard-druid or even sorcerer-druid . Certainly there are many legends about him, but I remember reading that he was a servant of the celtic nature gods before converting to christianism, while the contemporary versions show him as a mage or sorcerer.


    Also, as previously said by other members, druids reach levels 9-13 faater than any other class. You could literally strike with elementals , insect swarms and other powerful spells at the very begining of TotSC or SoD , while clerics take a really long time to reach levels 9-12.
  • TenreccTenrecc Member Posts: 265
    edited November 2016
    I don't think they're weak at all. They have the quintessential divine spell (chaotic commands), and the strongest divine offensive (insect swarms), defensive (ironskins) and summoning (Grt Elemental Summoning) spells. Also, as mentioned, they have some crazy powerlevel gains early on and especially at hitting 3M exp and getting 6 7th level spell slot. That's energy blades for days.

    I'd put them at equal to Clerics, easily.
    ThacoBellCrevsDaak
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,161
    What I'm hearing is that they're competitive once you reach Throne of Bhaal. Before then, they're weaker Clerics with Stoneskin that's too slow to be cast in combat and that competes with Chaotic Commands, True Seeing, and their other calling card, Insect Plague for scarce level 5 spell slots. The Cleric gets better meatshields sooner with Animate Dead, Aerial Servants that are reasonably competitive with the Fire Elemental, more protection spells like Free Action and Protection from Evil, and just generally competitive or better spell options than the Druid at every spell level besides maybe 7. Also, Turn Undead.

    Avengers can compete with Clerics, I think, with their new spells plus some shapeshift forms that aren't worthless, but the regular Druid is outshined by the kits, and the Shapeshifter needs mods to work. Even with those, though, he's still not fulfilling the divine casting promise of being able to fight and use magic; with him, you can only do one or the other at a time. Totemic Druid is something I haven't used in a long time, though, so I should reserve judgment on them.
    CrevsDaak
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 318
    I came from the Dark Sun setting (specifically, the CRPGs Shattered Lands and Wake of the Ravager). Anyone saying Druids are underpowered should play through those.

    That said, I always tweak the exp table (and spell progressions) to something a bit smoother, since you can't become the Grand Druid in Amn if your CHARNAME isn't already a druid and the RP reason for the huge jump in power is that it's because you're now the Grand Druid in Amn...
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,609
    @Adaj I really like that explanation, actually.
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    There is actually more to it. I believe the named levels go all the way up to 18, so even if he does become the Grand Druid, he still has to take out the one above him in order to get to level 16 and so on, until 18th level, when it becomes open again (mainly because there is no one actually above you in the heirarchy). Of course, then you have a bunch of ambitious underlings challenging you for the role (which is actually how it is done in the Druidic order, a nod to the whole wolfpack or lion pride thing).
    ThacoBellBelgarathMTH
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 984
    Mental note, never become a Druid. Or a Wizard in Discworld. Maybe I should find a nice, relaxing job as a Cleric to some minor god or another...
    ThacoBellFrancoisGrum
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,298
    edited November 2016
    AdaJ said:

    There is actually more to it. I believe the named levels go all the way up to 18, so even if he does become the Grand Druid, he still has to take out the one above him in order to get to level 16 and so on, until 18th level, when it becomes open again (mainly because there is no one actually above you in the heirarchy). Of course, then you have a bunch of ambitious underlings challenging you for the role (which is actually how it is done in the Druidic order, a nod to the whole wolfpack or lion pride thing).

    One of the reasons that it was kind of okay to play a druid in 1st edition AD&D and be limited to level 14 was the shapeshifting power. It was limited only by the player's imagination, and whatever size and mass rules the DM wanted to have to prevent the druid player from overpowering his or her campaigns.

    You could turn into a bird and fly. A bear or lion was a significant melee powerhouse under those rules, and if your DM didn't restrict your mass, you could be an elephant. Or a crocodile, or a boa constrictor, or something with deadly poison. If monster forms were allowed, you could even be a dragon (which became an officially sanctioned thing in 3rd edition, and started the infamous "druidzilla" trope.) You could turn into any aquatic creature and breathe water.

    Shapeshifting didn't get implemented very well in its BG version, I assume because of engine limitations. In pnp, the idea of being a shapeshifter who can also cast powerful spells was pretty attractive. The spells were also better - you could control the weather (7th level spell, possible to summon tornadoes, hurricanes, curse a town with drought, pretty much cause any weather you wanted), transmute wood and metal, summon any element (fire, water, air, earth), cause earthquakes, etc.

    Icewind Dale came a lot closer to getting the class right.

    Of all games, World of Warcraft also did a pretty good job with druids. I spent at least a couple hundred hours in WoW just exploring the world with druid shapes. Who needs flying mounts when you can BE a flying mount. :)

    EDIT: Also, Pillars of Eternity has a pretty decent druid implementation, although there's only one shapeshift form - a were animal of your choice - werewolf, werebear, werecat, etc. It's like the BG shapeshifter kit, only better. I'm playing one now.
    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
    JuliusBorisovThacoBellGrond0Grum
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    edited November 2016
    A lot of mistaken assumptions there, Belgarath.

    Druids cannot turn into Dragons in 3.x. The base Druid can only turn into animals of a certain size range that increases as he levels. He will get to turn into elementals of various sizes at higher levels also, but that is it.

    You CAN get a feat called Dragon Wildshape (assuming your DM allows the use of the book Dragonomicon) that would allow you to do wild shape into a small or medium Dragon, but the problem is that Wildshape is limited by your Druid level. The HD of the thing you turn into cannot be higher than your Druid level. Now, look at the HD of the dragons in 3.x.

    Control Weather takes a long time to work. It is not a battlefield spell at all, but it has its uses and it has its limitations. Note that this is also a Cleric spell, not just Druid.

    Druidzilla has nothing to do with turning into a Dragon in the slightest, and was definitely NOT started by being able to turn into a Dragon. The CoDzilla trope (which the Druidzilla is part of) came about because WotC overcompensated with the Druid and the Cleric.

    As you can see in BG, divine casters have it bad. They don't get more than 1 APR, and most of their spells are supportive or healing. It led to the walking bandaid view of the cleric, and not many people want to play that. Druids are always more of a fringe thing and not part of the main set, so few people play them. In order to encourage play, WotC gave the Cleric and the Druid all sorts of attack spells. Now they can blast, buff and debuff almost as good as wizards, with more spell slots, wear armour and actually have a decent chance of hitting things.

    Druids upped the ante with the animal companion, which at low levels can be better than the Fighter in mauling things (they fall behind later, though, without special attention). That is in 3.5. In 3.0, WotC REALLY dropped the ball on this feature, stating that a Druid can have a total of 2x his level in animal companions. That means you can have a Brown Bear for a pet starting at level 3, when it would take level 7 in 3.5 to get. Don't even get me started on the dire animal nonsense.

    Basically, CoDzilla came about because WotC are a bunch of idiots who won't know game balance if it came and bit them in the rear. For example, they call the Dust of Sneezing and Choking a cursed item, when it is the single most powerful weapon in the game.
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 221
    AdaJ said:

    A lot of mistaken assumptions there, Belgarath.

    Druids cannot turn into Dragons in 3.x. The base Druid can only turn into animals of a certain size range that increases as he levels. He will get to turn into elementals of various sizes at higher levels also, but that is it.

    You CAN get a feat called Dragon Wildshape (assuming your DM allows the use of the book Dragonomicon) that would allow you to do wild shape into a small or medium Dragon, but the problem is that Wildshape is limited by your Druid level. The HD of the thing you turn into cannot be higher than your Druid level. Now, look at the HD of the dragons in 3.x.

    Control Weather takes a long time to work. It is not a battlefield spell at all, but it has its uses and it has its limitations. Note that this is also a Cleric spell, not just Druid.

    Druidzilla has nothing to do with turning into a Dragon in the slightest, and was definitely NOT started by being able to turn into a Dragon. The CoDzilla trope (which the Druidzilla is part of) came about because WotC overcompensated with the Druid and the Cleric.

    As you can see in BG, divine casters have it bad. They don't get more than 1 APR, and most of their spells are supportive or healing. It led to the walking bandaid view of the cleric, and not many people want to play that. Druids are always more of a fringe thing and not part of the main set, so few people play them. In order to encourage play, WotC gave the Cleric and the Druid all sorts of attack spells. Now they can blast, buff and debuff almost as good as wizards, with more spell slots, wear armour and actually have a decent chance of hitting things.

    Druids upped the ante with the animal companion, which at low levels can be better than the Fighter in mauling things (they fall behind later, though, without special attention). That is in 3.5. In 3.0, WotC REALLY dropped the ball on this feature, stating that a Druid can have a total of 2x his level in animal companions. That means you can have a Brown Bear for a pet starting at level 3, when it would take level 7 in 3.5 to get. Don't even get me started on the dire animal nonsense.

    Basically, CoDzilla came about because WotC are a bunch of idiots who won't know game balance if it came and bit them in the rear. For example, they call the Dust of Sneezing and Choking a cursed item, when it is the single most powerful weapon in the game.

    Druids can turn into dragons with the Shapeshift spell. I tested it (made a monk/druid to make wildshape competetive in testing through 3 or 3.5, not sure which one) and it was utterly, utterly broken. Limiting myself to only lawful creatures still gave me the Pit fiend and Gold dragon. Pit fiends with AC35 vs touch and all the immunities and resistances you can think of are not very balanced.
    We quickly scaled shapechange from 10m/lvl to 1m/lvl to 1 rd/lvl and from 2x HD to 1x HD.
    The legendary animals used as animal companions were more than a challenge as well. A friend of mine threatened to wipe out his Coucil of Wyrms party with a pony.
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    Shapeshift is a Level 9 spell. I will see you a Shapeshift and raise you a Time Stop, Gate or any number of shenannigans possible with L9 spells. Hell, I was getting vitually unlimited Wishes at Level 11 (using a single Level 6 spell).

    What you cannot do is Wildshape into a Dragon worth anything.

    As for the Animal Companion, it is stated EXPLICITLY that any Animal Companion you summon is a completely AVERAGE version of it. In other words, you cannot put a template on it. Legendary animals (or rather, the Monster of Legend template) is a BIG no-no. That Animal Companion was illegal, and that template was never meant for player use. Breaking the rules and then whining about how overpowered something is is ludicrous.
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 221
    AdaJ said:

    Shapeshift is a Level 9 spell. I will see you a Shapeshift and raise you a Time Stop, Gate or any number of shenannigans possible with L9 spells. Hell, I was getting vitually unlimited Wishes at Level 11 (using a single Level 6 spell).

    What you cannot do is Wildshape into a Dragon worth anything.

    As for the Animal Companion, it is stated EXPLICITLY that any Animal Companion you summon is a completely AVERAGE version of it. In other words, you cannot put a template on it. Legendary animals (or rather, the Monster of Legend template) is a BIG no-no. That Animal Companion was illegal, and that template was never meant for player use. Breaking the rules and then whining about how overpowered something is is ludicrous.

    I'll grant you the animals. Though legendary animals do not have the monster of legend template, and dire animals are described as animal companions in the core rules. It was a test to see whether animal companions could still be useful without the druid having a small army of them, which makes for odd gameplay (It must have been 3rd, not 3.5).

    Even in light of the 9th level spells cast by other party members, the shapechange was deemed overpowered, and I usually am not the one breaking the game in these tests. Apart from the DM killing everyone by default with advanced fiendish Behirs* no enemy truly could touch the shapeshifted druid/monk. (*"Do you carry a light source? You are all dead, do you want an explanation?" "Yes" "2x maximised empowered horrid wilting at caster level 40(ish)" "... okay, we are dead" Not only the player choices needed adjusting).
    11
    But any talk of 3, which had difficulties fixed in 3.5, which had difficulties fixed in Pathfinder (there was no 4th), is quite moot. 5 is the new canon, and generally considered quite well, we did not manage to break it too bad.
  • PentiumDPentiumD Member Posts: 62
    edited December 2016
    Play a totemic druid and you will see a whole lot more respect to druids. Cause when they get higher level there special summons tend to be OP.
    thespace
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,161
    PentiumD said:

    Play a totemic druid and you will see a whole lot more respect to druids. Cause when they get higher level there special summons tend to be OP.

    I thought those capped out at 10 HD or so, not too formidable by SOA standards and a speedbump in TOB.
    Gallowglass
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 372
    Btw i like the idea to get more shapeshift forms in ee games, about 10 different is enough.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,701

    I think the title of the thread should be changed from "truth" to "opinion".

    Yeah, well ... That's just like, your opinion, man.
    FinneousPJSkatan
  • ObjulenObjulen Member Posts: 91
    Druids are weaker in BG than in IWD, but they're still quite useful. They lack some of the key low level spells that make clerics so great, but on the other hand they have some great mid and high level spells clerics don't get. The only spell they tend to lack that I really miss is Restoration. While it would be better if Druids had access to the same spell they get in IWD, they are still quite useful.

    Shamans are great. I made a half-orc Shaman and almost never use her ability to summon spirits, instead finding her to be one of the best healer/support characters possible. Spontaneous casting with healing spells and those o-so-useful situational but vital buffs/heals (like Negative Plane Protection and Slow Poison) is very handy, while her 19 Strength, Iron Skins, and Armor of Faith makes her a solid second-line melee character when she's hasted. She also has great damage with a sling.
    BelgarathMTHThacoBell
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,298
    I've been playing a World of Warcraft druid over Christmas break, and druids have the best implementation in that game I've ever seen. The shapeshifting is just so incredibly awesome, and so convenient for traveling around the world and through different environments. The bear and cat forms are also very effective in melee, and you can even take a talent to allow them to cast an offensive spell while shifted. (Moonfire).

    Playing such a well-done druid implementation inspires me to want to play druids in other games, so I wish the BG version was a little bit better done. Maybe I'll try a half-orc shaman as @Objulen suggests, and I guess that would be a little like being a Moonkin druid, but I'd miss the effective shapeshifting. Maybe a Shapeshifter druid with the Tweaks rebalancing mod would be closer to what I want.

    Pillars of Eternity does a pretty good job with druids, but you only get one shapeshift form, and while it's effective, it only lasts a few rounds, and can only be used once per battle.

    I've never tried a NWN shapeshifter prestige class, so I'm thinking about trying that. It was removed for NWN2, which is sad. I do have a stormbringer druid who beat the NWN2 OC, and I have him saved and ready to play MotB if I want. I might pick back up on that save game eventually.

    There's a druid ("shaman") talent tree in Grim Dawn that I'd like to try, as well.

    So many games, so little time. It's both a blessing and a curse, I guess.
    ThacoBell
  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 187
    Druid got the short end of the stick for no apparent reason. There is no denying that they are sub par after low-mid levels. It is beyond the point of "opinion" now I am going to call it power-gaming fact. This is especially true for ToB

    * Totemic Druids summons capping at 10HD, whose bright idea was that?
    * Shifter druid... Weaker than canon werewolves, lose weapon/armor/shield properties and can't cast spells while shifted.
    * Druids spells and HLA's are in general inferior to those of both mage and cleric class
    * All druid shape shifting steeply loses power as the game goes on due to powerful weapons/armor not working in forms. Other DnD titles kept shifting relevant by allowing shape shifting to retain item properties (e.g neverwinter nights)

    I could go on and on but you get the point. Yes you can make sub-par druids useful, my winning strategy for the blackpits was summoning nymphs to mass spam debuffs. Unfortunately there is nothing a tree hugging druid can do that another class can't do better...
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 492
    Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 are where druids are given the most love. Going through HoTU and MoTB as a dragon-shifting lord of destructive magic was sooo much fun.

    For BG series, I tend to play with the IWDification spells to give them back that fighting edge they lost in this series for some reason.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,609
    Druids are still the best divine casters with how badly they were treated in these games. I feel bad for how subpar clerics are.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,067
    Cant agree with druid and shaman spells 'sucking'. Maybe I have been using them so long I find ways to make them all work to my advantage.
  • BigfishBigfish Member Posts: 365
    I see it as less an overall issue and mostly one involving low levels, where you miss out on several key cleric spells like sanctuary, command, and remove fear. It starts evening out about when you get level 3 spells, but until then it feels like a crummy cleric.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 492
    in bg1, entangle, writhing fog, dryads and their lvl 5 mage spells, and call lightning are all OP

    you sure you are using druids/shamans right?
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