About "Poison Weapon"
Arcanjo
Member Posts: 155
Assassin and Blackguard, both share this ability. They say Murderer this very hurt with the nerf that occurred in March updates (2016) and blackguard was balanced, others say both suffered a strong nerf. They say in BG1: EE nerf is more sense in BG2: EE. And what do you think?
Note: This ability will still change? What combos are still effective?
Note: This ability will still change? What combos are still effective?
- About "Poison Weapon"19 votes
- Ability Overpower.0.00%
- Ability Nerfed.15.79%
- Ability Balanced.15.79%
- The answer is different for Assassins and BlackGuards. Explain?68.42%
0
Comments
Blackguards on the other hand are specifically built for slogging it out toe-to-toe so the original PW was (in my opinion) OP.
For Blackguards, however, I agree that the (old version of) Poison Weapon was over-powered, since using it with a warrior's THAC0 and APR made stacked poisonings very easy and reliable, which was excessive for a kit which also has other significant benefits.
If BD could implement the old version of PW for Assassins but the reduced version for Blackguards, then I reckon they'd have got it right.
I realized that for the blackguard considered just the nerf to the Assassin not. So it seems reading the text.
Blackguard seemed cool, but from what I read not worth playing with him, now that was nerfado, it was broken. It is the lowest among the paladin kits, it is also less than the warrior kits.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/816927/#Comment_816927
the link is at the first of 3 posts in the topic where I explain my point of view, they are all in the same page so is not difficult to find them.
For who want to go directly to my opinion on how PW should be implemented for the Assassin and the blackguard here is the direct link to the post where I give it.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/817140/#Comment_817140
@Arcanjo I don't think that the blackguard is so weak, PW is only one of his features and as he has good APR even with the nerfed one there is a big chance that the enemy will fail to save.
When compared with the other pallies, in case the charname is the pally, also the fact that he can chose all the hell trials outcomes without falling has to be evaluated.
He loose the 2 pally only swords but can use some very good 2 handers, the evil only sword from the underdark and the long sword from the hell trials.
- Among the paladins it has virtually the same as the others but with the nerf, was lower than the Inquisitor, for example, as both have the same thing, with the differential inquisdor destroy wizards and use the 2-H more powerful game .
So tell me, how to maximize aproveitament the blackguard? with WHAT he has now, forget the past, look to the present, how to play with it or equip it in order to say "Our overpower it or seems"
+2 to each saving throw is a massive bonus, even the nerfed PW is, in the hands of a paladin that have good APR and GWW to be almost sure that the enemy will fail at least a save in the round where it is active. The Assassin, with less thac0 and less APR has problems in having strong enemies failing the save.
A charname Blackguard has not problems of falling, for rep or hell choices, the NPC one has a personal quest with a good sword that can make him a demon-devil killer. And even if Ir'revrykal is not Carsomyr, but has 50% dispell magic, the sword from the underdark and Blackrazor (that for good aligned can be a problem to obtain), more than compensate the difference.
To tell that a kit not specialized in dealing with wizards is not as good as an other that is specialized in that is quite an obvious thing. If it would as good or better it would be a clear clue that something went wrong with its implementation.
But this does not mean that the kit is overall weaker that the other kits.
True, you can re-target and spread the pain with darts more easily than with short bows with 3 versus 2 attacks/round, but I find that short bows tend to out-damage darts by a wide margin once the various elemental arrows come into play, plus the stacking THACO bonuses from launcher and many of the arrows.
I used to find darts devastating against a single target with PW active. Now, they seem less so in theory.
What does ST?
@Aerakar
poison darts in theory should be good yet, but by what to reading and realizing, does not pay nor Blackguard and not to Killer. I may be very wrong.
There are many creatures immune to poison in BG1 / 2: EE and Dragonspear?
PW helps with this because each poison 'hit' causes your opponent to miss a step, slowing their advance and thus enabling you to keep a safe distance whilst still throwing darts.
This technique has now been rendered next to useless thanks to PW being nerfed.
I've had a huge amount of fun playing Assassins and Assassin dual classes but after the changes to PW I just didn't bother with them anymore - so consequently I've gone back to playing v1.3, for this more than any other reason.
I have to wonder why Beamdog bothered making the Assassin kit in the first place if they were just going to render it pointless by nerfing it's biggest selling point (although I would like to think it's just another example of the Law of Unintended Consequences).
The other kits have good bonuses, some of them have bonuses that can be easily replicated by items, like the undead hunter who is immune to level drain, but there are at least 2 items that give the same bonus. As ST bonuses stack there is no way to replicate to this very important bonus, as is not possible to replicate the dispel magic at double level of the Inquisitor, they are bonuses that are more good than others because give to the kits something that can not be obtained elsewhere.
* Assassin = Poison Weapon!
BackStabk (x7 and x5), no real difference in the game, which makes it fun and powerful killer is poison! This nerf eventually leave less attractive class. As the Beamdog, managed to make a game of zero less attractive?
Note .: Heavy Balancing, make a competitive game (Player vs Player), where every detail counts, but a game of zero, pass nerfs like, almost disabling a class (see, disabling as losing their characteristic and become as others and not as good as)
@gorgonzola
Every paladin has "+2 ST", it is not special in it, own inquisitor, common Paladin and others receive this bonus. Blackguard only have 3 different things from others: PW (Nerfed); Aura (1x day, sleep all the time?); Lifesteal (2x Level, good)
Note: It has a 20 ~ 30 hit points more than normal paladin, not mistaken.
The rest is the same as others, paladins. If we look, it does have a strong appeal in relation to others, for example, weak Poison Aura that forces you to sleep with every fight (If you want to entertain you with her), Lifesteal that neither seems there these things (Cleric or Deva does the healing work), has the same ST of other paladins, even potential proficiencies and skills.
What would a player, use a blackguard in good conscience?
Beamdog didn't create the Assassin kit, it existed in vanilla BG2, but they changed the PW.
Now is not stacking for multiple hits in a round and furthermore the save affects the duration of it beyond the round, before it affected only an additional damage.
Now the Assassin, that in a party reach the better backstab multipliers only when most of the dangerous foe that is worth to backstab is immune, has very few in end game. A TOB strong enemy has a big chance to avoid some of the hits, even if the Assassin has 6 APR with dart and improved haste, and save the others. He is no more the specialized killer that he was created by original developers, now in end game he is specialized only to kill enemies that don't pose any problem for a TOB level party, against most of the relevant ones he has a big chance to make only few damage and disrupt for a single round, about the same that a MM, a lev 1 arcane spell, can do.
The Poison weapon ability has been changed during the 2.0 beta. You can read the discussion between players and developers on this subject in https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/48418/poison-weapon. There were changes in tweaking this ability in different beta builds.
You can find out reasons for the changes here and here.
If you have constructive feedback on how exactly to improve the existing version of this ability, feel free to create a Feature Request on http://support.baldursgate.com/.
About PW, Blackguard case, the high APR and natural good thac0 make very possible that the saving throw is failed, for a disruption that goes beyond the round and a damage that is relevant, even if absolutely not good as before. Compare it with the situation of Assassin, with his lower thac0 and APR and who was really nerfed is self evident, even if both where nerfed to some extent.
About the Aura, that has no save, last one turn and give up to -4 penalty to hit and damage rolls and a -4 penalty to Armor Class, as a 30 ft radius AoE. Is enough to give an huge supremacy to all the party for the main battle of the day.
Only one use, but for poison weapon an use every 5 levels + a bonus use at level 1, a level 20 Blackguard can "silence" 5 mages/day for 4 rounds.
This in a class/kit that have good fighting capabilities, no falling problems, unless is the NPC and do the wrong quest choices, have access to a weapon that has 50% dispel on hit, an other that drain thac0 (on top of the aura draining if used in combination), no RP reasons to don't use a weapon that level drain, improve haste and boost welder's STR after few hits, absorbs enemy HP to add it to the welder.
Is true that the nerfing of PW make the kit less OP than before, but in my book is still far from being not useful and powerful.
You gave the same links also in a previous topic.
I give here the same answer I gave there.
One of the main points of the @Dee thesis that the original developers under estimated the power of PW is that in the original the stacking was bugged and this is corrected in EE.
I explained why that is not true, in the original only the effects having different rate are not correctly stacking, the effects that have the same rate stack with on problem every time, and this is the case of PW, like is the case of rings of regeneration, 2 of them stack, but one with the Gaxx one don't because of the different rate.
You have surely read my argumentation in that topic, so why you post here again something that now you know was based on a wrong evaluation by Dee?
I will not post a feature request since I almost never use poison weapons, blackguards and assassins, but every one who want to do so is free to use that argument, the testing of PW by the original developers WAS NOT biased by the not correct stacking of effects in original because the effects there don't stack ONLY if a different rate is present.
These weapons that you mentioned at the end, what their names? I found it interesting to combine abilities (Aura, Lifesteal and Poison) with a gun.
Note .: I found it very interesting drain Thac0 with a weapon and aura.
You or someone could suggest weapons (BG 1/2 and Dragonspear) that manage these combos, to give more power to the character, Blackguard?
So I talk only for BG2
You find the level draining sword at the end of SoA, obtaining it will cause Charname to change alignment to evil if is good or neutral, unless a certain trick is used, so it come at a cost for not evil parties. here is the description
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Blackrazor
"Every hit it has a 15% chance of draining 4 levels, healing the wielder by 20 hit points, and hasting as well as increasing his strength by 3 points for 20 seconds."
only 15% but no save so with good APR after few hits who welds it is on a permanent improved haste and 25 STR (+7 thac0 +14 dmg), and this is the main advantage, the level drain and the healing are on top. is "only" +3, but few enemies need more than +3, imo is one of the best weapons of the game, is like welding Crom and have a personal sorcerer with infinite improved haste.
Ir'revrykal can be found in watcher keep
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Ir'revrykal
the thaco draining one is found in the underdark in SoA
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Soul_Reaver
drains on hit 2 points of thac0 for 20 rounds, so the more you hit the less the enemy hits.
Those are good 2 handers that a blackguard can use, not weapons dedicated to apply poison. And not the only good weapons that he can use, but are "evil" swords, so RP wise appropriate for a Blackguard.
Black Razor can be used welding in the off hand a +1APR weapon giving to the Blackguard 9APR once the 15% chance effect trigger, without needing spells for that, with the +14 damage from strength this is devasting, depending on what other items that increase damage you use is something like 250 damage per round on average, without spell buffs.
Blackrazor have thac0 bônus -3, its good?
LongSword BlackRazor >>> "Sou Revar" and "The Unholy Reaver: Ir'revrykal" ^^
The weapon has +3 enchantment both for the creatures it can hit and for thac0.
This mean that it can hit every creature immune to +2 or lower thac0, so everything outside demiliches, few bosses and a couple of other optional enemies.
And that it give a +3 thac0 bonus, so lowers your thac0 by 3 points, and low thac0 is better than high one, you start with an high thac0 and as you level up it becomes better, so lower.
So Black Razor give only a 3 bonus at your thac0, Soul reaver give a 4 and the unholy reaver a 5, but when your STR becomes 25, thing that happens after few hits, you get an other bonus on top of 7, so after some hits Blackrazor give a total of 10 bonus to your thac0, given the natural good thac0 that a fighter class can have, down to 0 thac0 when fully leveled, and adding other items that improve it, you can have in ToB a -10 or -15 thac0, depending also n how many pips you have on the weapon you use, so miss only on criticals common foe and hitting frequently the bosses, even the end game ones that have very good Thac0.
Thaco means to hit armor class 0, so if you have a thac0 of 10 and you try to hit an enemy with AC 0 you mist roll 10 or higher, on a dice of 20 faces, to successfully hit, you have 50% chance.
if you have thac0 0 you hit that enemy every time that you don't roll a 1, a critical miss, that always fails, no matter what is the enemy thac0.
With thac0 in the negative values, like -10, is even better, you miss only on critical an enemy with AC -10, you have 50% chance to miss an enemy with AC -20. With thac0 -15 you miss the same enemy only 25% of the times.
Some players regard Black Razor as a weak weapon, because is "only" +3 at a point of the game where +4, +5 and even +6 weapons become available and you can easily loot +3 ones from not boss enemies.
But are the on hit effects that make it great, not the enchantment level, I often use it even when I have better enchanted long swords, switching to them only if a particular enemy is immune to +3 weapons, and as I told very few are.
But if you are at the beginning of BG1 you are fighting in a completely different environment, the growth in power in the series is not linear, is exponential, in the party, in the enemies that you find and in the items, an enemy that in BG1 is incredibly difficult with a mid SoA level party becomes quite manageable and at ToB level really easy. But you will see it by yourself, I tell it only because can be confusing talking of late SoA or ToB things if someone has not been there before and thinks in BG1 terms.
Blackrazor's haste effect, like the STR boost, will last 20 seconds but only triggers 15% of the time. On average, that's equal to a 100% chance of a 3-second STR boost and haste effect. Assuming you land all your hits, that's constant effect haste even if you only have 1 base APR, and +2 STR for every attack per round.
With less APR the time is not enough for it, in 18 secs he has 18 attacks, a blackguard should have more, up to 27 or more with the best gear (1 + 1DW + 1 lev13 +1/2 specialization +1/2 gauntlets +1belm or kundane = 5 not buffed APR) or 30 attacks in 18 secs improved hasted.
I will check the improved haste thing as on the notebook that I am using now I have not EE installed, but I am quite sure, otherway I would have used 2 speed weapons with him, thing that I switch to only when I cast improved haste or use the spin that in my game seems to interfere with the haste from the sword, and don't do it if I use the spin and immediately after have someone cast the spell for 10APR.
Edit1
Just checked with EEkeeper, I have 2 blackrazor files, one is named MISCBC and the other II3 so is very possible that I am using a modded sword. I will try to see in the files to see the opcodes that they use, but I am not good in that kind of things
Edit2
The blackrazor equipped in the savegames that I have is MISCBC (from EEkeeper) but in the override folder I have a miscbc item that is a blackrazor, if is in the override folder is there because I had extracted or because some mod did put it there, I think that the second is the right reason.
Looking at it with IEEP on the opcode I have the parameter set to 1, improved haste, and probably it should be 0, normal haste. In the past I did try some mods, also not weidu ones, without a backup clean installation, I suppose that it comes from one of them not properly removed. @semiticgod if you confirm that you are sure about the normal haste I will fix the parameter to his normal value.
And I apologize for the error, I was not aware to use an illegal blackrazor, probably also with regular haste is still very powerful, the 25 STR after 1 or 2 triggering of the effect, if the char uses a good belt as starting STR, and the +1APR are any way very good bonuses, with the gear that I mentioned before is 6APR with "crom like STR" without potions or spells, for a Blackguard, so probably about 180 DMG/round.
"Blackrazor" nullifies "improved Haste"?
> +2 +1 APR is APR
I did not understand well the strategy to solve this, I get a ring "Free Action" Or "Age of flail", to solve this? I do not understand why this happens.
@gorgonzola
What items have to improve the APR and / or Thac0?
@Arcanjo: Improved Haste also nullifies normal haste. I think it's just because it's the same opcode and they overwrite each other, much like Champion's Strength will overwrite Strength of One. The Ring of Free Action and Flail of Ages will prevent any haste effect from affecting you (unless your game is modded to allow it), but will not dispel haste effects already active. So if you cast Improved Haste on a character, then equip the Ring of Free Action, Blackrazor will not nullify your Improved Haste.
I don't change my post.
@semiticgod , thanks, the fact that is in the override and not in capital letters make me think that was changed by some mod, I had experimented in changing some items in the past, but I leave always the original not changed and give a new name at the new that then I equip with EEkeeper. I will change the value to 0.
end of EDIT.
The thing work like this
haste give an additional APR
improved haste double the APR
they don't stack.
So giving improved haste with a spell the APR is doubled, but then, as soon as the blackrazor haste triggers it overwrite the improved haste and your APR go from 2xAPR to APR+1.
but if you improved haste someone and then equip him with an item that give free action, like the ring you find in BG2 or the Flail of Ages +5, a ToB weapon, the free action prevents any movement change, included the haste from blackrazor, so the improved haste from the initial spell is not overwritten. But you still have the STR bonus and the other ones as they are not movement rates changes (and for the engine changing the APR is a movement rate change) so they are unaffected by the free action.
Once the improved haste naturally expires you have to unequip the ring or flail, recast the spell and equip again the free action item.
Some people regard this as cheating, some other don't, imo both the opinions have good reasons and is player's choice do it or not.
To improve APR you have the throwing daggers that also used in mlee have 2 APR, and the damage roll of a bastard sword, but you can only equip them in the main hand. In BG1 there is surely one, in SoA 2.
In SoA you have 3 different swords that give +1APR, one is a short one, 2 are scimitar/ninja to, one of them usable only by monks or thieves/bards with use any item. There are some gauntlets in ToB that give an additional 1/2 Apr. In SoD i don't know, in bg1 is possible that I forgot something, I played it only few and lot of time ago.
For enhancing STR in SoA/ToB you have some gauntlets that give 18.00, belts that give 19-20-21-22, a ring that every cleric get when he reach a certain level that give +1, but is usable only by the cleric or a char with UAI and a hammer that set it to 25, but to build it you loose the gauntlets and one of the belts.
There is also a sword that give STR obtained in WK.
The gauntlets are also in BG1.
Maybe I forget something and others can tell for SoD, But for BG2 it should be all.