I have not seem them moving around like WW Z zombies, but they do tend to move around more generally during combat if not casting. I am playing BG1 now and the mages try to reposition regularly, at least it seems that way to me! But yes, this hardly qualifies for chickens on crank.
I agree that hitting anything that's moving around a lot is extremely difficult with a slow weapon speed - I'm sure everyone has had the experience of trying (and failing) to hit in melee a scared enemy running away even if they don't use SCS.
Absolutely agree on that part.
Calling BS on the part where SCS casters supposedly run around like chickens on crank. Because they just don't.
I was just fighting SCS Yuan-ti Mages in the Planar Prison and they were running constantly as I tried to hit them with melee weapons. I still got some hits in, but they dodged about half my attacks just by staying on the move.
I thought SCS mages just moved occasionally, but these guys were actually kiting me.
Can confirm, spellcasters move pretty damn regularly. Standard mages/clerics, monstrous casters, Drow...hell even Irenicus in Spellhold was making liberal use of kiting tactics. I kinda like it. You either need to use range, spells, or move faster.
@Lord_Tansheron the role of Speed Factor is as relevant as @Aasim claims within IR/SR+SCS because of a combination of tweaks: - weapon's enchantment doesn't affect it (aka a +5 greatsword is still super slow) - IR's armors come with speed factor penalties - boosting apr within IR/SR is A LOT harder (e.g. warrior's HLA is the only x2 apr) -- SCS mages move around a lot and as @Grond0 says it really matters (he doesn't even use IR/SR afaik)
@Pteran daggers on average deal 1-2 points less of dmg compared to short/long swords but such difference becomes less and less relevant %-wise if you count higher enchantment lvls and/or dmg bonuses form other sources. In exchange within IR they get: - best speed factor - dual-wielding bonuses (you mentioned it yourself) - throwing/returning variants - best on-hit disabling effects imo (*)
(*) with IR you have Stiletto of Demarchess to paralyze (20% chance, save vs death), Pixie Prick to render unconscious (20% vs spell) and later on Spider Fang to hold (web effect, 33% vs breath), not to mention those daggers come with secondary effects as well (respectively: bleeding dmg, chance to go invisibile on hit!, acid dmg). Last but not least, Longtooth (1d6 dmg plus armor piercing) and the infamous Dagger of Venom are among the best weapons you can find within BG1 afaik.
@Lord_Tansheron the role of Speed Factor is as relevant as @Aasim claims within IR/SR+SCS because of a combination of tweaks: - weapon's enchantment doesn't affect it (aka a +5 greatsword is still super slow) - IR's armors come with speed factor penalties - boosting apr within IR/SR is A LOT harder (e.g. warrior's HLA is the only x2 apr) -- SCS mages move around a lot and as @Grond0 says it really matters (he doesn't even use IR/SR afaik)
While all of that is true (to an extent), I still don't believe it makes speed factor relevant enough to change itemization decisions. Even taking into account all the things you listed, I would not select a weaker weapon because of a better speed factor. But perhaps that is just my own personal setup, I do tend to run with 2x Archer and things like that.
I was just fighting SCS Yuan-ti Mages in the Planar Prison and they were running constantly as I tried to hit them with melee weapons. I still got some hits in, but they dodged about half my attacks just by staying on the move.
I thought SCS mages just moved occasionally, but these guys were actually kiting me.
It does happen, however it is not the norm that you get kited and don't get any hits in at all. Also, if they are moving, they are not casting - and you should only be so lucky. In fact, it's even a form of pseudo-CC - you can use positioning and the terrain to keep them moving, and if they stop you're there to punch them in the face. The less time mages spend actually doing scary things, the better. I cannot remember any caster using effective hit-and-run tactics in ways that were not trivial to counter; not unless you count some of the more annoying Imps, I suppose, but then again those are never a threat.
@Lord_Tansheron: Interesting points, but I've never seen an SCS mage prioritize running over casting spells. The Yuan-ti Mages I was fighting always stopped long enough to cast their spells (at least until they ran out). Forcing SCS mages to run will never slow down their spellcasting; just their attack rate.
it works perfectly, you can even use a thrwing dagger in the main hand and a +1 apr weapon in the off hand, to get 4 APR with a not fighter type. In BG2 you want to have your blade with 4 APR, your thief with 2 APR (without DW so at full thac0) and 2 fighters with a +1APR weapon in the off hand? In EE it is possible.
EDIT: this is an answer to @Skatan question at the end of the first tread page, when I wrote it I did miss for some reason the whole second page
it works perfectly, you can even use a thrwing dagger in the main hand and a +1 apr weapon in the off hand, to get 4 APR with a not fighter type. In BG2 you want to have your blade with 4 APR, your thief with 2 APR (without DW so at full thac0) and 2 fighters with a +1APR weapon in the off hand? In EE it is possible.
Wow, that's sick. This made the Swashbuckler->Mage MUCH more powerful, since lacking ApR was one of it's main weaknesses and the only reason why Fighter/Mage/Thieves were so much better (XP progressions is a huge deal if you ask me, even if playing solo). I'm going to play another Swashmage as soon as I can.
it works perfectly, you can even use a thrwing dagger in the main hand and a +1 apr weapon in the off hand, to get 4 APR with a not fighter type. In BG2 you want to have your blade with 4 APR, your thief with 2 APR (without DW so at full thac0) and 2 fighters with a +1APR weapon in the off hand? In EE it is possible.
EDIT: this is an answer to @Skatan question at the end of the first tread page, when I wrote it I did miss for some reason the whole second page
Nice, so it works exactly the way I thought then. I think we will see a surge in dagger using swashies and blades now perfect for these classes with few prof points to be able to get great melee and ranged options with very little prof point investment, enabling them to go for the TWF almost immediately.
Btw, I guess poisoned throwing daggers can be used in melee as well then to hit through stoneskins and PfMW while using a +APR offhand to increase the main hand APR to 3.
I think we will see a surge in dagger using swashies and blades now perfect for these classes with few prof points to be able to get great melee and ranged options with very little prof point investment, enabling them to go for the TWF almost immediately.
In original there are 3 +1APR weapons, and the most powerful one can be used by rogues with UAI, so to have good APR for swashies and blades was always possible. What is new is that now you can have 5 +1 APR weapons, so you can equip a blade and a swashie for 4APR and spare a weapon for a fighter, while an other party fighter boost STR with Crom and a fighter-cleric (Anomen?) with spells. Is not the single class that is boosted, is the whole party that mainly get advantage of the EE behavior, If you build the party in the right way you can have a tremendous mlee punch without focusing so much on fighters. Swashie charname (mlee and thieving), Minsc or Korgan, later Sarewok (mlee), Haer Dalis (mlee and arcane), Anomen and Aerie (mlee and divine or arcane) and Nalia->Imoen (main arcane caster), a lot of mlee power and a lot of magic. 5 +1Apr weapons are an incredible boost for the party. Afaik a similar party, optimized for use all the +apr weapons, has not been reported on the boards, but it has an incredible potential.
I thought the 2 returning throwing daggers gave the +1 APR in melee prior to EE also, but no one really used them until throwing dagger strength was included making those two weapons more interesting and viable.
But I could be mistaken. It was a long time ago!
Also, they cannot be used in the off-hand like the other 'real' + APR weapons, so there is that.
In vanilla, there were 4 speed weapons: Kundane, Belm, the Scarlet Ninja-to, and the Shadow Thief Dagger. You can only get and keep the Shadow Thief Dagger (STD) by siding with Bodhi, choosing the assassin's task to kill Vulova, and then spared Vulova, rather than planting the dagger and cloak in his pool.
The STD had an undocumented effect that set your APR to 2. It struck as a nonmagical weapon and got no STR bonuses, but had the advantage of being usable by single-classed mages and granting an extra APR to Project Image clones (because it set APR rather than increasing it).
EE removed the bonus APR effect, rendering the dagger useless for anyone without a STR penalty.
I thought the 2 returning throwing daggers gave the +1 APR in melee prior to EE also, but no one really used them until throwing dagger strength was included making those two weapons more interesting and viable.
But I could be mistaken. It was a long time ago!
Also, they cannot be used in the off-hand like the other 'real' + APR weapons, so there is that.
Afaik in the original the Boomerang one and the Axe you loot from Tarnor did get the STR bonus, Firetooth and the anti undead axe no. Imo is was a good way, for every type the better one (also the enchantment level of the daggers is changed in EE) did not get the STR bonus. In EE the daggers are improved, both take the damage and the enchantment is better, and they can be DWelded. In original they was a good choice, and you had to switch between firetooth (better enchantment and elemental damage) and boomerang (STR bonus but only +1) according to the situation. But using an axe as ranged weapon was just as good. In EE chose dagger give a clear advantage.
@semiticgod - Fair enough, but that's getting off-topic, since the Impaler needs both hands to wield (thus precluding the use of a speed-weapon in the off-hand).
In original there are 3 +1APR weapons, and the most powerful one can be used by rogues with UAI, so to have good APR for swashies and blades was always possible. What is new is that now you can have 5 +1 APR weapons, so you can equip a blade and a swashie for 4APR and spare a weapon for a fighter, while an other party fighter boost STR with Crom and a fighter-cleric (Anomen?) with spells. Is not the single class that is boosted, is the whole party that mainly get advantage of the EE behavior, If you build the party in the right way you can have a tremendous mlee punch without focusing so much on fighters. Swashie charname (mlee and thieving), Minsc or Korgan, later Sarewok (mlee), Haer Dalis (mlee and arcane), Anomen and Aerie (mlee and divine or arcane) and Nalia->Imoen (main arcane caster), a lot of mlee power and a lot of magic. 5 +1Apr weapons are an incredible boost for the party. Afaik a similar party, optimized for use all the +apr weapons, has not been reported on the boards, but it has an incredible potential.
Yes, yes, I know that ofc. My point was that now swashies and blades don't HAVE TO go for shortswords and scimis, now they can go for daggers from the beginning and then directly for TWF.
And about your team, I don't fully follow. Haer'dalis can use Kundane, but why do you add Anomen and Aerie and talk about increasing the melee power? If you want to make good use of the +APR weapons you should prolly go for something like CHARNAME blade/swashie/whatever: Firetooth and late-game UAI: scarlet Haer'dalis: Kundane and SSoM or picked up late for LS Jaheira: Belm, and/or late TWF for clubs and scimis or just scimis. The boomerang dagger can be used as well as an extra +2 APR weapon for whatever dagger...
Hmm, I just now thought of darts. What happens when I put darts in each hand? Now there are two, the returning one with acid from SoD and the +3 from Watcher's in BG2. I know you can't have 6 APR, but what happens? DAMN! I'm at work now and can't try this out!
Also, they cannot be used in the off-hand like the other 'real' + APR weapons, so there is that.
This is exactly the point - the change allows you to wield ranged weapons and still be able to equip it in off-hand or in main hand and another weapon in the off-hand.
Now imagine if we were allowed to have ranged throwing weapons used as that while dual weilding, haha.. Imagine having a dwarf double-chucker! The dwarven thrower in one hand and the throwing axe in the other Now THAT would have been epic.
Hmm, I just now thought of darts. What happens when I put darts in each hand? Now there are two, the returning one with acid from SoD and the +3 from Watcher's in BG2. I know you can't have 6 APR, but what happens? DAMN! I'm at work now and can't try this out!
Regrettably you can't put a ranged weapon in your off-hand ...
And about your team, I don't fully follow. Haer'dalis can use Kundane, but why do you add Anomen and Aerie and talk about increasing the melee power? If you want to make good use of the +APR weapons you should prolly go for something like CHARNAME blade/swashie/whatever: Firetooth and late-game UAI: scarlet Haer'dalis: Kundane and SSoM or picked up late for LS Jaheira: Belm, and/or late TWF for clubs and scimis or just scimis. The boomerang dagger can be used as well as an extra +2 APR weapon for whatever dagger... ................................ Hmm, I just now thought of darts. What happens when I put darts in each hand? ................................ This is exactly the point - the change allows you to wield ranged weapons and still be able to equip it in off-hand or in main hand and another weapon in the off-hand.
The idea of my proposed party was using only not modded NPCs and all the +1APR weapons.
Charname Swashie 4APR (returning dagger + Scarlet) Haer Dalis 4APR (returning dagger + Kundane), spins on top. Jaheira 4.5APR (Belm offhand + lev 13 + specialization) And that uses all the +1 APR weapons usable in mlee. Minsk or Korgan 3.5-4 APR at 25 STR (lev 13 + specialization/GM, Crom in main or off hand) Anomen 3.5 APR at 25 STR, maxed damage roll (DW and clerical buffs) Aerie 2 APR at 25 STR, maxed damage roll (DW and clerical buffs) Someone with 25STR can also use the +1/2 APR gauntlets. You get near to 20 APR without haste, solid mlee attacks if you use the rest of the gear that enhance STR dmg and thaco, even the contribution of Aerie, that has no way to boost her APR and has only 1 pip in DW, with the 7/14 bonus from the STR, will be noticeable. For the hard battles end game you can add a Planetar and an Elemental Prince, and IHaste everybody, Kelsey or Tashia, sorcerers, are better than Imoen for that, they can do it quickly using PI and having it casting under IA, but I used only vanilla NPCs, and a clone of Haer Dalis singing. And now we are close to 50 APR. Add also a simulacrum from the helm and an other from Aerie In a party that is also magic heavy with a main mage, 2 arcane helpers and 3 divine casters. This is the final development, Firetooth, Crom and UAI for Scarlet will be available only at certain points, and it don't work on enemies that require high enchantment to be hit, but works to kill their helpers fast as the ones with high enchanted weapons start to bash the boss. You can trow in Keldorn instead of Aerie or change other things, if you like, mine is not the only possibility, but it shows how the potential of 5+APR weapons buffs the party more than the single character, if you build the party on that.
....................................
Afaik in EE is not possible to equip ranged weapons, not even the returning ones, in OH. The only thing opened by EE is the mlee MH use of returning weapons, While using or not using an OH not ranged weapon.
Comments
I thought SCS mages just moved occasionally, but these guys were actually kiting me.
- weapon's enchantment doesn't affect it (aka a +5 greatsword is still super slow)
- IR's armors come with speed factor penalties
- boosting apr within IR/SR is A LOT harder (e.g. warrior's HLA is the only x2 apr)
-- SCS mages move around a lot and as @Grond0 says it really matters (he doesn't even use IR/SR afaik)
@Pteran daggers on average deal 1-2 points less of dmg compared to short/long swords but such difference becomes less and less relevant %-wise if you count higher enchantment lvls and/or dmg bonuses form other sources. In exchange within IR they get:
- best speed factor
- dual-wielding bonuses (you mentioned it yourself)
- throwing/returning variants
- best on-hit disabling effects imo (*)
(*) with IR you have Stiletto of Demarchess to paralyze (20% chance, save vs death), Pixie Prick to render unconscious (20% vs spell) and later on Spider Fang to hold (web effect, 33% vs breath), not to mention those daggers come with secondary effects as well (respectively: bleeding dmg, chance to go invisibile on hit!, acid dmg). Last but not least, Longtooth (1d6 dmg plus armor piercing) and the infamous Dagger of Venom are among the best weapons you can find within BG1 afaik.
In BG2 you want to have your blade with 4 APR, your thief with 2 APR (without DW so at full thac0) and 2 fighters with a +1APR weapon in the off hand? In EE it is possible.
EDIT: this is an answer to @Skatan question at the end of the first tread page, when I wrote it I did miss for some reason the whole second page
Btw, I guess poisoned throwing daggers can be used in melee as well then to hit through stoneskins and PfMW while using a +APR offhand to increase the main hand APR to 3.
Is not the single class that is boosted, is the whole party that mainly get advantage of the EE behavior, If you build the party in the right way you can have a tremendous mlee punch without focusing so much on fighters. Swashie charname (mlee and thieving), Minsc or Korgan, later Sarewok (mlee), Haer Dalis (mlee and arcane), Anomen and Aerie (mlee and divine or arcane) and Nalia->Imoen (main arcane caster), a lot of mlee power and a lot of magic. 5 +1Apr weapons are an incredible boost for the party.
Afaik a similar party, optimized for use all the +apr weapons, has not been reported on the boards, but it has an incredible potential.
But I could be mistaken. It was a long time ago!
Also, they cannot be used in the off-hand like the other 'real' + APR weapons, so there is that.
The STD had an undocumented effect that set your APR to 2. It struck as a nonmagical weapon and got no STR bonuses, but had the advantage of being usable by single-classed mages and granting an extra APR to Project Image clones (because it set APR rather than increasing it).
EE removed the bonus APR effect, rendering the dagger useless for anyone without a STR penalty.
In EE the daggers are improved, both take the damage and the enchantment is better, and they can be DWelded.
In original they was a good choice, and you had to switch between firetooth (better enchantment and elemental damage) and boomerang (STR bonus but only +1) according to the situation. But using an axe as ranged weapon was just as good. In EE chose dagger give a clear advantage.
EDIT corrected a wrong name
The Flail of Ages in the right hand, and an STD in the left.
I prefer the Impaler +3.
And about your team, I don't fully follow. Haer'dalis can use Kundane, but why do you add Anomen and Aerie and talk about increasing the melee power? If you want to make good use of the +APR weapons you should prolly go for something like
CHARNAME blade/swashie/whatever: Firetooth and late-game UAI: scarlet
Haer'dalis: Kundane and SSoM or picked up late for LS
Jaheira: Belm, and/or late TWF for clubs and scimis or just scimis.
The boomerang dagger can be used as well as an extra +2 APR weapon for whatever dagger...
Hmm, I just now thought of darts. What happens when I put darts in each hand? Now there are two, the returning one with acid from SoD and the +3 from Watcher's in BG2. I know you can't have 6 APR, but what happens? DAMN! I'm at work now and can't try this out!
Now imagine if we were allowed to have ranged throwing weapons used as that while dual weilding, haha.. Imagine having a dwarf double-chucker! The dwarven thrower in one hand and the throwing axe in the other
Charname Swashie 4APR (returning dagger + Scarlet)
Haer Dalis 4APR (returning dagger + Kundane), spins on top.
Jaheira 4.5APR (Belm offhand + lev 13 + specialization)
And that uses all the +1 APR weapons usable in mlee.
Minsk or Korgan 3.5-4 APR at 25 STR (lev 13 + specialization/GM, Crom in main or off hand)
Anomen 3.5 APR at 25 STR, maxed damage roll (DW and clerical buffs)
Aerie 2 APR at 25 STR, maxed damage roll (DW and clerical buffs)
Someone with 25STR can also use the +1/2 APR gauntlets.
You get near to 20 APR without haste, solid mlee attacks if you use the rest of the gear that enhance STR dmg and thaco, even the contribution of Aerie, that has no way to boost her APR and has only 1 pip in DW, with the 7/14 bonus from the STR, will be noticeable.
For the hard battles end game you can add a Planetar and an Elemental Prince, and IHaste everybody, Kelsey or Tashia, sorcerers, are better than Imoen for that, they can do it quickly using PI and having it casting under IA, but I used only vanilla NPCs, and a clone of Haer Dalis singing. And now we are close to 50 APR.
Add also a simulacrum from the helm and an other from Aerie
In a party that is also magic heavy with a main mage, 2 arcane helpers and 3 divine casters.
This is the final development, Firetooth, Crom and UAI for Scarlet will be available only at certain points, and it don't work on enemies that require high enchantment to be hit, but works to kill their helpers fast as the ones with high enchanted weapons start to bash the boss.
You can trow in Keldorn instead of Aerie or change other things, if you like, mine is not the only possibility, but it shows how the potential of 5+APR weapons buffs the party more than the single character, if you build the party on that.
....................................
Afaik in EE is not possible to equip ranged weapons, not even the returning ones, in OH.
The only thing opened by EE is the mlee MH use of returning weapons, While using or not using an OH not ranged weapon.
@Grond0, OK thanks. Playing almost exclusively BG1 nowadays, so have only thought about this theoretically so far.