@Harpagornis Good to know, I imagine I'll need some help with a thief (and many restarts). I'll need to study all these classes, but is F/M/T better (easier) than F/T, C/T or M/T?
I think no one played F/M/T so far @histamiini. Level progression will be really slow but with careful play even SoD should be no big problem once you get used to it. If you really want to push your character fast use the Basilisk-XP-Loop in BG1 and the Gauth-XP-Loop in SoA. After that this the F/M/T should be a real headache for most enemies.
But as @Grond0 or @Blackraven can tell you even better: This challenge will need 100% concentration nonstop as death is only one step away. I had to learn this too in a very hard way cause i was used to Reload-Challenges only before. The good thing is that every step, every challenge you master feels much more satisfying. Not to forget the real thrill when fighting big enemies. My heart is still bumping like crazy when for instance fighting Big B even though i know how to do it.
@histamiini, I think F/M/T is one of the best possible classes you can go with for a no-reload challenge. They are very much like Fighter/Thieves, leveling slower but getting spells and wands in return. Like an innate Use Any Item ability. You won't have lots of spells for the long battles of LoB mode, but scrolls and wands offer a lot of flexibility and much better crowd control than a F/T has.
The major advantage of the F/M/T over the Mage/Thief is APR. Being able to hit hard and often is a real asset. Of course F/M/Ts eventully miss out on evel 9 spells, but then a Fighter/Mage or a Mage/Thief only gets two level 9 spells (three if Gnome Illusionist) at the level cap.
Comparing a Cleric/Thief and a F/M/T is difficult. They're very different, with the F/M/T being a lot stronger I'm afraid. I don't like saying this, because I have a soft spot for Cleric/Thieves. I find them a lot of fun to play, but C/Ts lack both APR and crowd control to deal with group battles. If Harpagornis succeeds with his C/T during the crusader attacks, that'll be a major achievement.
My Stalker is still in Baldur's Gate but maybe I should start over with a stronger character...
I think I'll go with F/M/T to get flexibility. Why I would like to add fighter in the mix, is because of big Bel (if I ever get there). The hit&run technique, although working just fine, nearly broke my pause thumb, and it was sore like a week after. So I would like to avoid that with the tanking method.
I made it through BG1 with a F/M/T (with reloads) and ofc in BG1 just having wands means you're never in danger. But yeah as @Blackraven mentioned, the APR is quite significant and ofc in SoD you will notice the Thac0 as well vs Big B over a plain M/T.
C/T is good enough in BG2 and op in BG1 but I don't think it scales into SoD very well.
Hrhrhrhr... i really love playing hit & run like a chicken while torturing my pause button @histamiini.
F/M/T will indeed be the most flexible class combo you can get and is a good starting point for no-reload i think!
Agreed: The C/T is definetly NOT the best class for the no-reload-challenge but - pretty much like @Blackraven - i also got a soft spot for this combo. Its really big fun to play with. And its not one of the mainstream chars. BG1 and BG2 should be doable with some caution for C/T. The main problem is SoD with its Crusader Attacks and Big B even though i fear the first one more. However: I think that i got a decent strategy here. Lets hope luck is on Brakko´s side!
It's weird, but outside of the Belhifet fight, where a few fighter levels look like a big deal, I think a mage/thief is superior to a fighter/mage/thief down the road for this challenge. Having access to more high level traps and mages HLAs seems to me a much better options. I'd rather have a Planetar and Dragon's Breath than a having a few GWWs. With UAI, you'll have access to Fire Tooth and Scarlet Ninja-to to dual wield +3 speed weapons at 8 apr with Improv Haste. With the Assassination HLA and Tenser's Transformation, you won't miss your fighter levels. I agree that the Belhifet fight will probably be more complicated for a m/t compared to a f/m/t, but in BG2, the m/t should be much better. Actually, a gnome illusionist/thief looks really good on paper.
I went through BG1 with a mage/thief and, when you get access to invisibility, that's it, you've basically beaten the first game. Set traps, cast invis, got rest (no danger since you're invis), set more traps, trigger the encounter, profit. Need a bit of help ? Wand of summoning with Haste will do wonder. Snipe from afar with your bow if you fancy it. Wands for damage and spell slots for defensive buffs. Well, that's my two cents on the matter.
Good point @Arctodus mentioned and i think he might be right. Big B will be the bottleneck for M/T but with some preparation it should be quite doable. I rarely missed higher APR with Korgath my Bounty Hunter even though he lacked the spellpower of a Mage. I would try both combos and test them - should be good training for a no-reload setup!
Brakko is finished with the city and started his March to Dragonspear. More updates soon!
Wands alone are op in BG1, traps on top of that for stuff like palace ambush and you feel like a monster.
After reading @histamiini Account of Mel and remembering @Arctodus and @Harpagornis struggle as well, I left my ranger alone and rolled a berserker. I did the basilisk loop pretty much asap usually I only used it to regain dual levels (or in my last three runs that made it to bg city I ddin't even do the loop at all), gaining fighter level 7, dual into mage and then gaining 90k agtain for level 8 mage. I actually managed to roll a 18/100 ST on a total roll of 85.
I just realized how dumb it is to level up, while you're regaining levels and are looping anyway (I always used to do that), since when you keep your prof points for the level you regain your original class you can spend them however you wish and not only in (my case) mage abilities, also let's you get 5 pips in a weapon class in BG1
Another typical death as Wimp falls again . She had done the majority of the encounters in the wilderness areas (and painfully ferried most of the equipment back to be stored at Beregost) and was almost at level 8 when I was running Bjornin's half-ogres round. A ghoul joined in the chase at one point, but I essentially ignored that and was down to 2 half-ogres (does that make a whole ), one of which was almost dead. My familiar was badly wounded, so I dropped it off in a corner to regenerate while Wimp kited the half-ogres. She was almost over to the other side of the map and had just turned to come back for the familiar when the text suddenly said it was being attacked by the ghoul - and the first attack paralysed it. Regrettably Wimp was too far away to get back before the ghoul had killed the familiar (and the shock from that instantly killed Wimp as well).
I was thinking that the familiar was safe from the half-ogres as they use a follow-me script and will home in on a direct line to their target irrespective of distance. The ghoul, however, has a different script and must have fallen sufficiently far behind Wimp to lose interest in chasing her - which would lead to it wandering around to see if any other tempting targets were on offer ...
I just realized how dumb it is to level up, while you're regaining levels and are looping anyway (I always used to do that), since when you keep your prof points for the level you regain your original class you can spend them however you wish and not only in (my case) mage abilities, also let's you get 5 pips in a weapon class in BG1
That used to be possible, but regrettably you can't now get 5 pips in a weapon in BGEE.
- Do I get Weapon Profencies every level up? Which would mean 8 in BG and 9 in SoD? - Are Mage HLA's disabled?
Your weapon proficiency progression follows that of a fighter's, so 4 a character creation, a 5th at level 3, 6th at level 6, etc.
Mage HLAs aren't disabled, you just don't get access to most* of them them since you won't be able to cast level 9 spells under the XP cap. * I say "most of them" because the extra level 6, 7 and 8 spells should be available.
It's weird, but outside of the Belhifet fight, where a few fighter levels look like a big deal, I think a mage/thief is superior to a fighter/mage/thief down the road for this challenge. Having access to more high level traps and mages HLAs seems to me a much better options. I'd rather have a Planetar and Dragon's Breath than a having a few GWWs. With UAI, you'll have access to Fire Tooth and Scarlet Ninja-to to dual wield +3 speed weapons at 8 apr with Improv Haste. With the Assassination HLA and Tenser's Transformation, you won't miss your fighter levels. I agree that the Belhifet fight will probably be more complicated for a m/t compared to a f/m/t, but in BG2, the m/t should be much better. Actually, a gnome illusionist/thief looks really good on paper.
Interesting points @Arctodus. I've never made it into SoA or ToB on LoB difficulty, so what I'm about to say is not based on experience. Yes, a Mage/Thief can cast spells and use items to more or less approximate a fighter, but there are drawbacks: Tenser's disables spell-casting, which can make you vulnerable, the speed weapons you mention aren't as effective as say Ages, Crom Faeyr, Staff of the Ram, or Carsomyr under GWW. The Assassination HLA you can only pick once. I fully agree with you on the Planetar though. Having one of those is a huge deal and will probably trivialize much of SoA, once you get it. Otoh I care less about Dragon's Breath: yes it's 20d10 of AoE damage, but it's fire damage (not the best damage type) and there's a save vs breath for half. With LoB improved enemy saves and increased HPs it won't get rid of mobs, and it will be even less of an impact against bosses I reckon. Just like a Mage/Thief can fight, a Fighter/Mage/Thief can cast. At epic levels, even a triple class gets 4 level 6 spells, 4 level 7 spells and 3 level 8 spells. You'll have spare slots for summons (mordies, fiends) and damage spells when called for. Also a F/M/T gets 20 HLAs (one more actually than a Mage/Thief), so you can still end up with plenty of HLA traps if you like those. Since a F/M/T will use spell buffs to avoid getting hit rather than damage reduction to mitigate damage, you could choose to skip Hardiness (or maybe pick just one or two, to use in a pinch), and pick lots of traps in addition to GWWs, Critical Strike etc.
Having said all that, I feel like trying with a Fighter/Mage/Cleric to see how they fare solo. (My current party F/M/C is doing alright.) I guess I'll let you know if I get one going.
I just realized how dumb it is to level up, while you're regaining levels and are looping anyway (I always used to do that), since when you keep your prof points for the level you regain your original class you can spend them however you wish and not only in (my case) mage abilities, also let's you get 5 pips in a weapon class in BG1
That used to be possible, but regrettably you can't now get 5 pips in a weapon in BGEE.
Hm, thats strange, it worked for me, I just didn't level my mage after dual class, until I hzad 90k xp...
I did some digging regarding the Crusader Attacks.
Problem: Which support should Cleric/Thief use against the Trolls/Ogres?
As we need to hold them back as long as possible either Dwarves, Undead or Warmages come to mind.
I tested all of them without any support just to take a look how long they survive - it was quite interesting!
The result: All of them can hold back the Ogres/Trolls for 26-31 seconds depending on rolls.
The downside of the Warmages is that they deal nearly no damage at all. They also "forgot" using their CC when getting pressed.
Normally i take Dwarves here but then i realized a big drawback which lost me several characters in the past.
You remember the "bug" when Trolls or Ogres ignored everything by just running to Andrus triggering the next waves?
The solution is rather simple: Its the Cleric casting Holy Smite!!! Whoever fails the save and gets blinded will run directly to the barrels. This can make things very tricky cause if they manage to run by its most likely game over.
All of this seem to favour the Undead at the end - even more as the Mage can cast Slow to negate Haste, Chromatic Orb for lucky instant kills or Emotion: Hopelessness to CC the Ogre/Trolls.
On the good side all Undead have 50 % DR against slashing & Piercing but will recieve double damage from crushing damage. As the enemies use all damage sources the DR is more or less negated. Otherwise the Undead would have survived longer.
Another reason to pick the Undead is that they deliver significantly more damage than the Dwarves. The Bone Golem for instance deals 8-19 damage (4 APR) in comparison with the 8-11 damage (7/2 APR) of the Dwarven Berserker. The only bonus for the Dwarves is Brother Deepvein who will constantly use the hard hitting Wand of Heaven. However here are the concrete numbers:
@Blackraven Well, when I was talking about mage HLAs and level 9 spells, I was thinking about them in general. To add to a Planetar and Dragon's Breath, there's also Time Stop, Shapechange : Mind Flayer (LoB bonuses don't matter with that), Improved Alacrity, Chain Contingency, even BBoD... all seems to be game changer, which a f/m/t will either have in small quantity (through scrolls) or outright miss (higher mage HLAs). With Time Stop traps and spells, you can have a looot of free time to obliterate enemies for instance. With this kind of power, you don't need higher melee output. For enemies immune to Time Stop, you still have other tools at your disposal.
But you're right though : f/m/t will have more flexible equipment options and a much more consistent damage output. GWW is nice, but Smite or even Power Attacks can also be real game changers. So, it's totally possible that I underestimate the power of the flexibility a f/m/t brings to the table. However, m/t can circumvent their "shortcomings" in a spectacular fashion.
@Blackraven Well, when I was talking about mage HLAs and level 9 spells, I was thinking about them in general. To add to a Planetar and Dragon's Breath, there's also Time Stop, Shapechange : Mind Flayer (LoB bonuses don't matter with that), Improved Alacrity, Chain Contingency, even BBoD... all seems to be game changer, which a f/m/t will either have in small quantity (through scrolls) or outright miss (higher mage HLAs). With Time Stop traps and spells, you can have a looot of free time to obliterate enemies for instance. With this kind of power, you don't need higher melee output. For enemies immune to Time Stop, you still have other tools at your disposal.
But you're right though : f/m/t will have more flexible equipment options and a much more consistent damage output. GWW is nice, but Smite or even Power Attacks can also be real game changers. So, it's totally possible that I underestimate the power of the flexibility a f/m/t brings to the table. However, m/t can circumvent their "shortcomings" in a spectacular fashion.
I think in regards to High level insta kills the F/M/C is best, because of Critical Strike + Harm, since the Mind Flayer form can't hit above enchhantment 2, while Harm should hit Mel (pretty sure @Harpagornis tested that once) Ofc the Flayer is better for clearing big groups of enemies, but with Mislead it doesn't matter too much whether you instakill mobs or use some brawn (or even ignore them with plain invis, if you want a specific item from a single enemy you can just Harm them anyway), keep in mind that Flayer kills don't give xp, so you can't use the flayer for leveling.
I just realized how dumb it is to level up, while you're regaining levels and are looping anyway (I always used to do that), since when you keep your prof points for the level you regain your original class you can spend them however you wish and not only in (my case) mage abilities, also let's you get 5 pips in a weapon class in BG1
That used to be possible, but regrettably you can't now get 5 pips in a weapon in BGEE.
Hm, thats strange, it worked for me, I just didn't level my mage after dual class, until I hzad 90k xp...
I guess that's the result of your mods then. Are you playing with EET - I imagine that would disable the standard limitations associated with BGEE?
If you wait pushing the level up button after dual-classing until you reached XP cap you can reach five weapon pips without any problem. Did this several time with my Berserker/Druid.
And yes: Even Mel can be "Harm"onized. In my tests only Kangaxx (first form) was somehow immune...
- Do I get Weapon Profencies every level up? Which would mean 8 in BG and 9 in SoD? - Are Mage HLA's disabled?
Your weapon proficiency progression follows that of a fighter's, so 4 a character creation, a 5th at level 3, 6th at level 6, etc.
Mage HLAs aren't disabled, you just don't get access to most* of them them since you won't be able to cast level 9 spells under the XP cap. * I say "most of them" because the extra level 6, 7 and 8 spells should be available.
Thanks, so F/M/T will only get 10 pips overall. What about saving throws? Do they follow some of the F/M/T, or does it pick the best of 5 from each class?
If you wait pushing the level up button after dual-classing until you reached XP cap you can reach five weapon pips without any problem. Did this several time with my Berserker/Druid.
And yes: Even Mel can be "Harm"onized. In my tests only Kangaxx (first form) was somehow immune...
Kangaxx is immune to magic damage, pretty sure harm does magic damage. (also there's not many enemies 100% immune like kangaxx, I found that out when I had the hilarious Monk mod with the uber gauntlets of magic dots installed and it destroyed even Golems)
@Grond0 I used to have EET but uninstalled it, strange.
@Blackraven Well, when I was talking about mage HLAs and level 9 spells, I was thinking about them in general. To add to a Planetar and Dragon's Breath, there's also Time Stop, Shapechange : Mind Flayer (LoB bonuses don't matter with that), Improved Alacrity, Chain Contingency, even BBoD... all seems to be game changer, which a f/m/t will either have in small quantity (through scrolls) or outright miss (higher mage HLAs). With Time Stop traps and spells, you can have a looot of free time to obliterate enemies for instance. With this kind of power, you don't need higher melee output. For enemies immune to Time Stop, you still have other tools at your disposal.
You're right. I don't think we necessarily disagree. F/M/T and T/M are both outstanding. My point is that a double class multi mage only gains three more mage levels than triple class multi mage: level 20 vs level 17.
In practice this means, apart from slightly more powerful spells in terms of duration/damage, one extra level 6 spell slot, an extra level 8 spell slot, and two level 9 spell slots, so four more castings in total for the M/T. As you say there are many amazing level 9 spells: Planetar, Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, Dragon's Breath, Wish, Shapechange, BBoD. But they're all competing for no more than two slots. (Three if you're a Gnome. I consider Gnome Illusionist/Thief to be a lot more powerful than Elf or Half-Elf M/Ts.) Now you can wish-rest to cirumvent this problem, but that involves either being lucky or (Project Image sheninigans) and having to memorize a Wish, leaving you only one other level 9 spell slot. Getting much better Thac0, weapon specialization, and with it and with your fighter levels 3/2 extra APR, better weapon options, and fighter HLAs seems like a reasonable trade-off to.
I think in regards to High level insta kills the F/M/C is best, because of Critical Strike + Harm, since the Mind Flayer form can't hit above enchhantment 2, while Harm should hit Mel (pretty sure @Harpagornis tested that once)
Nice to read this, right after I rolled a new F/M/C
Thanks, so F/M/T will only get 10 pips overall. What about saving throws? Do they follow some of the F/M/T, or does it pick the best of 5 from each class?
You get the best saves for each class at their respective levels. Take a look at this link for a nice overview of the F/M/T (and the F/M/C). It says that F/M/Ts get 12 proficiencies but I'm not sure if that's right. Either way, with 10 you should be ok although there's a lot of proficiencies to choose from for a F/M/T.
@Blackraven I also had in mind the SCS component that makes you cast HLAs as innate, which, to be honest is a lot more powerful for m/t. Without it, it's a major drop in power, I agree.
@Blackraven I also had in mind the SCS component that makes you cast HLAs as innate, which, to be honest is a lot more powerful for m/t. Without it, it's a major drop in power, I agree.
I once had this component but found it to nerf some abilities since you can only use them once. I installed the component since I hoped to retain druid HLAs after dualing, but it didn't work for Deva. edit: but ofc it is really good for mages.
Thanks, so F/M/T will only get 10 pips overall. What about saving throws? Do they follow some of the F/M/T, or does it pick the best of 5 from each class?
You get the best saves for each class at their respective levels. Take a look at this link for a nice overview of the F/M/T (and the F/M/C). It says that F/M/Ts get 12 proficiencies but I'm not sure if that's right. Either way, with 10 you should be ok although there's a lot of proficiencies to choose from for a F/M/T.
Hmm, that profencies is wrong if it follows only fighter, and saving throws too because Thief 22 should have better wand and spell than Fighter 18. And my calculations give a Thief 22 565 points (excluding dex). So I'm not sure what is correct at this point.
Thanks, so F/M/T will only get 10 pips overall. What about saving throws? Do they follow some of the F/M/T, or does it pick the best of 5 from each class?
You get the best saves for each class at their respective levels. Take a look at this link for a nice overview of the F/M/T (and the F/M/C). It says that F/M/Ts get 12 proficiencies but I'm not sure if that's right. Either way, with 10 you should be ok although there's a lot of proficiencies to choose from for a F/M/T.
Hmm, that profencies is wrong if it follows only fighter, and saving throws too because Thief 22 should have better wand and spell than Fighter 18. And my calculations give a Thief 22 565 points (excluding dex). So I'm not sure what is correct at this point.
Proficiencies do not add up, why would they? Both saving throws and proficiencies are rewarded the same way, but for proficiencies it is a lot simpler since there is only one factor, while for saves there is a save for each category. Either way the best saviing throw for each applies, so you can have a fighter save vs death, but a thief vs wand. The same is true for proficiencies, the real difference here is that on no level up ever will a thief or mage have more points than a fighter, so logically only the fighter proficiencies apply, since the fighter will have the highest total points.
If you wait pushing the level up button after dual-classing until you reached XP cap you can reach five weapon pips without any problem. Did this several time with my Berserker/Druid.
There was a deliberate attempt some time ago to stop the ability to get to 5 pips by dual classing. To check on that I tried going to 5 pips when dualling to a cleric - and couldn't do it. I also tried a thief and mage and no dice there either. However, it does work for a druid dual - so congratulations @Harpagornis you've discovered a bug. I can't guarantee that won't get sorted out in v2.5 of course ...
Brakko cleared Coastway Crossing without much resistance...
- Killed the spider groups with five Skels + Wand of Heaven. Had to quickly switch to Ring of Free Action after the Gargantuam Spiders tried to web him several times.
- Tricked once more Teleria and her Golem using Sanctuary while the summons hacked them down.
- Defeated Tsolak with five Skels, Haste and some slinging. Carefully disarmed all four traps in front of his hideout and banished the vampire from the realms.
- Brought back all Heirlooms and kept the Identify Mirror - this will save a lot of gold.
- Visited all ancient Menhirs to get some more XP and gold.
- Went into the Mines and let the Undead kill the Dwarves. Collected all Amulets (plus another one in the southern tunnel) and moved into Coldhearths lair. With PfU he parked the hard hitting Sentry in one room, solved the riddle and finally met Coldhearth himself. Convinced him to work together without problems thanks to the Amulets. Lets hope his Undead can hold back the Ogre/Trolls long enough...
- Casted Sanctuary and approached the bridge. The detonation and some talking triggered but as Brakko was invisible the Crusaders could not attack him. He quickly retreated and waited for Caelar. After the usual talking he went back to camp to prepare for Bridgefort...
This was clearly the easiest part - as long as you keep an eye on traps.
The temple will be more interesting. Should i touch Morentherene? Possibly not!
Comments
But as @Grond0 or @Blackraven can tell you even better: This challenge will need 100% concentration nonstop as death is only one step away. I had to learn this too in a very hard way cause i was used to Reload-Challenges only before. The good thing is that every step, every challenge you master feels much more satisfying. Not to forget the real thrill when fighting big enemies. My heart is still bumping like crazy when for instance fighting Big B even though i know how to do it.
The major advantage of the F/M/T over the Mage/Thief is APR. Being able to hit hard and often is a real asset. Of course F/M/Ts eventully miss out on evel 9 spells, but then a Fighter/Mage or a Mage/Thief only gets two level 9 spells (three if Gnome Illusionist) at the level cap.
Comparing a Cleric/Thief and a F/M/T is difficult. They're very different, with the F/M/T being a lot stronger I'm afraid. I don't like saying this, because I have a soft spot for Cleric/Thieves. I find them a lot of fun to play, but C/Ts lack both APR and crowd control to deal with group battles. If Harpagornis succeeds with his C/T during the crusader attacks, that'll be a major achievement.
My Stalker is still in Baldur's Gate but maybe I should start over with a stronger character...
I think I'll go with F/M/T to get flexibility. Why I would like to add fighter in the mix, is because of big Bel (if I ever get there). The hit&run technique, although working just fine, nearly broke my pause thumb, and it was sore like a week after. So I would like to avoid that with the tanking method.
But yeah as @Blackraven mentioned, the APR is quite significant and ofc in SoD you will notice the Thac0 as well vs Big B over a plain M/T.
C/T is good enough in BG2 and op in BG1 but I don't think it scales into SoD very well.
F/M/T will indeed be the most flexible class combo you can get and is a good starting point for no-reload i think!
Agreed: The C/T is definetly NOT the best class for the no-reload-challenge but - pretty much like @Blackraven - i also got a soft spot for this combo. Its really big fun to play with. And its not one of the mainstream chars. BG1 and BG2 should be doable with some caution for C/T. The main problem is SoD with its Crusader Attacks and Big B even though i fear the first one more. However: I think that i got a decent strategy here. Lets hope luck is on Brakko´s side!
- Do I get Weapon Profencies every level up? Which would mean 8 in BG and 9 in SoD?
- Are Mage HLA's disabled?
I went through BG1 with a mage/thief and, when you get access to invisibility, that's it, you've basically beaten the first game. Set traps, cast invis, got rest (no danger since you're invis), set more traps, trigger the encounter, profit. Need a bit of help ? Wand of summoning with Haste will do wonder. Snipe from afar with your bow if you fancy it. Wands for damage and spell slots for defensive buffs. Well, that's my two cents on the matter.
Brakko is finished with the city and started his March to Dragonspear. More updates soon!
After reading @histamiini Account of Mel and remembering @Arctodus and @Harpagornis struggle as well, I left my ranger alone and rolled a berserker.
I did the basilisk loop pretty much asap usually I only used it to regain dual levels (or in my last three runs that made it to bg city I ddin't even do the loop at all), gaining fighter level 7, dual into mage and then gaining 90k agtain for level 8 mage.
I actually managed to roll a 18/100 ST on a total roll of 85.
I just realized how dumb it is to level up, while you're regaining levels and are looping anyway (I always used to do that), since when you keep your prof points for the level you regain your original class you can spend them however you wish and not only in (my case) mage abilities, also let's you get 5 pips in a weapon class in BG1
I was thinking that the familiar was safe from the half-ogres as they use a follow-me script and will home in on a direct line to their target irrespective of distance. The ghoul, however, has a different script and must have fallen sufficiently far behind Wimp to lose interest in chasing her - which would lead to it wandering around to see if any other tempting targets were on offer ...
Mage HLAs aren't disabled, you just don't get access to most* of them them since you won't be able to cast level 9 spells under the XP cap.
* I say "most of them" because the extra level 6, 7 and 8 spells should be available. Interesting points @Arctodus. I've never made it into SoA or ToB on LoB difficulty, so what I'm about to say is not based on experience. Yes, a Mage/Thief can cast spells and use items to more or less approximate a fighter, but there are drawbacks: Tenser's disables spell-casting, which can make you vulnerable, the speed weapons you mention aren't as effective as say Ages, Crom Faeyr, Staff of the Ram, or Carsomyr under GWW. The Assassination HLA you can only pick once. I fully agree with you on the Planetar though. Having one of those is a huge deal and will probably trivialize much of SoA, once you get it. Otoh I care less about Dragon's Breath: yes it's 20d10 of AoE damage, but it's fire damage (not the best damage type) and there's a save vs breath for half. With LoB improved enemy saves and increased HPs it won't get rid of mobs, and it will be even less of an impact against bosses I reckon.
Just like a Mage/Thief can fight, a Fighter/Mage/Thief can cast. At epic levels, even a triple class gets 4 level 6 spells, 4 level 7 spells and 3 level 8 spells. You'll have spare slots for summons (mordies, fiends) and damage spells when called for.
Also a F/M/T gets 20 HLAs (one more actually than a Mage/Thief), so you can still end up with plenty of HLA traps if you like those. Since a F/M/T will use spell buffs to avoid getting hit rather than damage reduction to mitigate damage, you could choose to skip Hardiness (or maybe pick just one or two, to use in a pinch), and pick lots of traps in addition to GWWs, Critical Strike etc.
Having said all that, I feel like trying with a Fighter/Mage/Cleric to see how they fare solo. (My current party F/M/C is doing alright.) I guess I'll let you know if I get one going.
Problem: Which support should Cleric/Thief use against the Trolls/Ogres?
As we need to hold them back as long as possible either Dwarves, Undead or Warmages come to mind.
I tested all of them without any support just to take a look how long they survive - it was quite interesting!
The result: All of them can hold back the Ogres/Trolls for 26-31 seconds depending on rolls.
The downside of the Warmages is that they deal nearly no damage at all. They also "forgot" using their CC when getting pressed.
Normally i take Dwarves here but then i realized a big drawback which lost me several characters in the past.
You remember the "bug" when Trolls or Ogres ignored everything by just running to Andrus triggering the next waves?
The solution is rather simple: Its the Cleric casting Holy Smite!!! Whoever fails the save and gets blinded will run directly to the barrels. This can make things very tricky cause if they manage to run by its most likely game over.
All of this seem to favour the Undead at the end - even more as the Mage can cast Slow to negate Haste, Chromatic Orb for lucky instant kills or Emotion: Hopelessness to CC the Ogre/Trolls.
On the good side all Undead have 50 % DR against slashing & Piercing but will recieve double damage from crushing damage. As the enemies use all damage sources the DR is more or less negated. Otherwise the Undead would have survived longer.
Another reason to pick the Undead is that they deliver significantly more damage than the Dwarves. The Bone Golem for instance deals 8-19 damage (4 APR) in comparison with the 8-11 damage (7/2 APR) of the Dwarven Berserker. The only bonus for the Dwarves is Brother Deepvein who will constantly use the hard hitting Wand of Heaven. However here are the concrete numbers:
But you're right though : f/m/t will have more flexible equipment options and a much more consistent damage output. GWW is nice, but Smite or even Power Attacks can also be real game changers. So, it's totally possible that I underestimate the power of the flexibility a f/m/t brings to the table. However, m/t can circumvent their "shortcomings" in a spectacular fashion.
Ofc the Flayer is better for clearing big groups of enemies, but with Mislead it doesn't matter too much whether you instakill mobs or use some brawn (or even ignore them with plain invis, if you want a specific item from a single enemy you can just Harm them anyway), keep in mind that Flayer kills don't give xp, so you can't use the flayer for leveling.
Good call on the Harm/CS combo. Haven't thought about it. F/M/C seems a really solid choice then.
And yes: Even Mel can be "Harm"onized. In my tests only Kangaxx (first form) was somehow immune...
(also there's not many enemies 100% immune like kangaxx, I found that out when I had the hilarious Monk mod with the uber gauntlets of magic dots installed and it destroyed even Golems)
@Grond0
I used to have EET but uninstalled it, strange.
In practice this means, apart from slightly more powerful spells in terms of duration/damage, one extra level 6 spell slot, an extra level 8 spell slot, and two level 9 spell slots, so four more castings in total for the M/T. As you say there are many amazing level 9 spells: Planetar, Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, Dragon's Breath, Wish, Shapechange, BBoD. But they're all competing for no more than two slots. (Three if you're a Gnome. I consider Gnome Illusionist/Thief to be a lot more powerful than Elf or Half-Elf M/Ts.) Now you can wish-rest to cirumvent this problem, but that involves either being lucky or (Project Image sheninigans) and having to memorize a Wish, leaving you only one other level 9 spell slot.
Getting much better Thac0, weapon specialization, and with it and with your fighter levels 3/2 extra APR, better weapon options, and fighter HLAs seems like a reasonable trade-off to. Nice to read this, right after I rolled a new F/M/C
Take a look at this link for a nice overview of the F/M/T (and the F/M/C). It says that F/M/Ts get 12 proficiencies but I'm not sure if that's right. Either way, with 10 you should be ok although there's a lot of proficiencies to choose from for a F/M/T.
I installed the component since I hoped to retain druid HLAs after dualing, but it didn't work for Deva.
edit: but ofc it is really good for mages.
Both saving throws and proficiencies are rewarded the same way, but for proficiencies it is a lot simpler since there is only one factor, while for saves there is a save for each category.
Either way the best saviing throw for each applies, so you can have a fighter save vs death, but a thief vs wand.
The same is true for proficiencies, the real difference here is that on no level up ever will a thief or mage have more points than a fighter, so logically only the fighter proficiencies apply, since the fighter will have the highest total points.
- Killed the spider groups with five Skels + Wand of Heaven. Had to quickly switch to Ring of Free Action after the Gargantuam Spiders tried to web him several times.
- Tricked once more Teleria and her Golem using Sanctuary while the summons hacked them down.
- Defeated Tsolak with five Skels, Haste and some slinging. Carefully disarmed all four traps in front of his hideout and banished the vampire from the realms.
- Brought back all Heirlooms and kept the Identify Mirror - this will save a lot of gold.
- Visited all ancient Menhirs to get some more XP and gold.
- Went into the Mines and let the Undead kill the Dwarves. Collected all Amulets (plus another one in the southern tunnel) and moved into Coldhearths lair. With PfU he parked the hard hitting Sentry in one room, solved the riddle and finally met Coldhearth himself. Convinced him to work together without problems thanks to the Amulets. Lets hope his Undead can hold back the Ogre/Trolls long enough...
- Casted Sanctuary and approached the bridge. The detonation and some talking triggered but as Brakko was invisible the Crusaders could not attack him. He quickly retreated and waited for Caelar. After the usual talking he went back to camp to prepare for Bridgefort...
This was clearly the easiest part - as long as you keep an eye on traps.
The temple will be more interesting. Should i touch Morentherene? Possibly not!