Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Axis & Allies 1942 Online is now available in Early Access! Buy it on Steam. The FAQ is available.
New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

simulacrum level bug?

sernsern Member Posts: 3
Spell description is definitely off: it claims to create a clone with 60% of the caster's levels, but instead I get 50% with my mage.

After trying the same on a dual mage I edited up, caster levels were only cut by 1/4!

So a dual-class fighter>mage has simulacra that can cast multiple level 9 spells lol! With only generic mage levels, no bonus! Why be a pure mage with that kind of power available?

Multi-class mages get shafted even harder, I think, but I'm not certain.

I'm inclined to think this is a bug, but I don't know if support is ongoing for this game.

Post edited by sern on
gorgonzola

Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,845
    edited December 2016
    The basic formula is that single-classed mages get Simulacrum clones at 50% their level, while multi-classes gets clones at 60%. There's some rounding involved (which would explain why your dual-classed mage only got cut to 75%), but that's how it normally operates. It does give a slight advantage to dual-classes.

    Simulacrum has never been particularly powerful except as a means to use limited-use items and HLAs. The clones are rather vulnerable and usually have subpar spells by the time they're available.

    Support is indeed still ongoing for this game (only for EE), but this is not a bug. 50% and 60% are the standard numbers for Simulacrum.

  • sernsern Member Posts: 3
    No, it isn't the rounding, it seems designed for dual classes to get 3/4 of their caster levels in simulacra:

    http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12702

    It makes about six levels in difference, so it could never have been rounding. The guy says that multi-classes are only different in that they can be rounded up or down, rather than just up for the pure class.

    Still pretty dumb, I think. I guess I'd think the opposite if I'd made a dual class lol.

    As for subpar spells, I don't know what you're on. You spend a single 8th level slot in a contingency that casts instantaneously at the start of combat, and you get a return of 2-3 level 9 spells, as well as the rest of the whole -ing spellbook lol, that cast alongside your character, taking no casting time whatsoever from your PC. Hell, I wonder if there's a way to have the thing dispel itself once it's dropped it level 9 load, so you can just summon another and get more level 9 spells. Can't really call it cheese, like project image, either.

    gorgonzola
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,068
    The engine doesn't allow the Original Class of a Dual-class Character to be level drained. It does not count towards Character level until they regain its abilities. Once regained, its Character level is calculated like a multiclass (total/2).
    A Multiclass Charatcer uses the average of all its classes for its character level, and has all classes drained equally.

    A Mage->Anything Dualclass will to not lose any of its mage levels or spellslots from level drain.
    A Dualclass with a very low Original Class will effectively reduce the Character level of a creature once it is regained. This reduced level is used for any Innate abilities that scale with level. A 2->18 casting Simulacrum will lose (50% * ((2+18)/2)) levels, 5, instead of 50% * 18, 9.

    The 50%/60% disparity is likely from a unified game engine that has inconsistencies between games, as in IWD the description is 50%, unlike BG where it is 60%. Mirror Images suffers similarly, as one game says the images are always hit first, the other allows a chance to hit the real creature, but both function identically.

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehrgorgonzola
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    Welcome to an engine full of hard-coded junk.

    Incidentally, I have found a way to restrict simulacra to casting spells of certain levels... I've set up the "clone" spells such that the 6th-level spell lets your clone cast 2nd-level spells, the 7th level spell lets your clone cast 4th-level spells, and the 8th-level spell lets the clone cast any spells (and cheesy PI is moved to 9th level).

    Seems like it would be reasonable to have the 8th-level spell limit the clone to casting 7th level spells.

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,306
    kjeron wrote: »
    The engine doesn't allow the Original Class of a Dual-class Character to be level drained. It does not count towards Character level until they regain its abilities. Once regained, its Character level is calculated like a multiclass (total/2).
    A Multiclass Charatcer uses the average of all its classes for its character level, and has all classes drained equally.

    A Mage->Anything Dualclass will to not lose any of its mage levels or spellslots from level drain.
    A Dualclass with a very low Original Class will effectively reduce the Character level of a creature once it is regained. This reduced level is used for any Innate abilities that scale with level. A 2->18 casting Simulacrum will lose (50% * ((2+18)/2)) levels, 5, instead of 50% * 18, 9.

    The 50%/60% disparity is likely from a unified game engine that has inconsistencies between games, as in IWD the description is 50%, unlike BG where it is 60%. Mirror Images suffers similarly, as one game says the images are always hit first, the other allows a chance to hit the real creature, but both function identically.

    Sorry for the necro, but this mechanic was new to me. @kjeron do you know if this rounds up or down? E.g. if you dual at level 10 and reach level 13 with the new class, would innates cast as level 11 or 12?
    Also, what counts as "very low original class" levels, i.e. at what original class level does the (total levels/2) calculation start to apply when you dual?

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,068
    Shin wrote: »
    Sorry for the necro, but this mechanic was new to me. @kjeron do you know if this rounds up or down? E.g. if you dual at level 10 and reach level 13 with the new class, would innates cast as level 11 or 12?
    Rounded up, so level 12.
    Shin wrote: »
    Also, what counts as "very low original class" levels, i.e. at what original class level does the (total levels/2) calculation start to apply when you dual?
    As soon as the original class is reactivated, it's calculated as (total levels / 2). The lower the original class level compared to the active class, the lower your effective character level will be for innates.
    A L2 Fighter -> L20 Thief will use innates at level 11.
    A L7 Fighter -> L20 Thief will use innates at level 14.
    A L13 Fighter -> L20 Thief will use innates at level 17.
    A L19 Fighter -> L20 Thief will use innates at level 20.

    Grond0StummvonBordwehrShinJuliusBorisov
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,911
    edited November 6
    as the thread has already been necroed
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Simulacrum has never been particularly powerful except as a means to use limited-use items and HLAs. The clones are rather vulnerable and usually have subpar spells by the time they're available.
    let me strongly disagree with you.
    not only for the reasons @sern told, let me add few more things.
    1. simulacrum is affected by dispell magic, but not by true sight spells, so need only a single SI to be impervious to spells that delete him in a split second.
    2. simulacrum does not freeze the original mage, thing that can be problematic if enemies that can see trough invisibility are around and the clone is somehow stunned, i once lost my solo sorcerer with tactics mod because my PI was stunned by a low level undead, probably a shadow, and there was nothing i could do about it.
    3. simulacrum does not freeze the original mage, this mean that he can act as a secondary mage as the original is already performing his duty.
    4. simulacrum does not freeze the original mage, this mean that a second generation clone from a not level drained PI is just as powerful as the simulacrum of the original mage, even if he looses all the equipment, so RoV and AoP. the PI can cast the simulacrum both at the beginning of its existence or just before she expires, giving a free clone for the next battle at the cost of a single (PI's) lev 8 spell.
    5. simulacrum can physically attack, and can use scrolls and sequencers to buff himself, even a regular mage's sim. buffed with BBoD and tensor is quite scary, but try with some F->M or aerie and you actually have a very competent fighter more, in the case of aerie tensor is not needed so the clone does not even give up the casting power.

    i could continue, but i think it is enough, the point is not that the simulacrum is not as strong as caster as the PI, if you use him that way you have at best a good secondary mage, if not from a sorcerer with level high enough to have the sim. cast at least one lev 9 spell, IA.
    the point is that the simulacrum can do other things that a PI is not allowed to do and is more safe in some situations (clone freezed or enemy that cast TS as soon as the clone is created).

    the real problem with the EE simulacrum is an other, the player has almost no control on the way the clone retains and loose the spells, and i really hope that this will be fixed with the last patch of the game, other way i will agree with you on his lacking power, but for a different reason then your.
    about that problem more information here:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/74856/simulacrum-the-way-spells-are-memorized-in-original-and-in-ee

Sign In or Register to comment.