Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit www.planescape.com to purchase and check for details. Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition Official Soundtrack is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Does SoD spoil BG2?

2»

Comments

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,460
    Grond0 said:

    Kurona said:

    There's also the matter of difficulty. SoD enemies are smart -- a lot smarter than the average BG2 foe. This, coupled with the focus on hordes, make the game quite a bit harder than BG2 (aside from specific encounters).

    Frankly I would recommend you to play BG2 first.

    I think you might well want to consider this. SoD in terms of AI is effectively a modded form of BG and is significantly more difficult than unmodded BGEE / BG2EE. That's fine if you're a long term player of the game and used to playing with mods anyway. If, however, you're fresh to the game you might find yourself in the situation where you enjoy the gameplay in SoD, but then find BG2 something of a letdown - whereas playing them the other way round would feel much more natural in terms of the gameplay progression (even if not the storyline progression).
    If you're a new player, you could always play the game on an easier difficulty like Normal mode, in which the enemy AI isn't as good.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 885
    edited June 16
    Before the EE's were released I used to play the old game always as BGT (i.e. the two games made into one and played on the BG2 engine/GUI with a short transition from onr game to the other.) The kidnapping scene at SoD end is taken directly from old BGT. This relatively aprupt transition has now been filled with life by SoD.
    Since I always felt that those two games should be played as one continuos game with all the flashback and foreshadowing across the individual parts, SoD does a fine job. The today equivalent to BGT (much more improved on the EE basis) is now EET - one game covering BG1 - SoD - BG2 - ToB. You have your protagonist and companions that move with you through that sequence (some you loose on the journey others you pick up enroute). In this sequence, SoD has its place where it is in the sequence of events.
    It bridges the gap that was formerly there and makes things more logical - the hero becomes known to the world including the fact he/she is a bhaalspawn. This attracts attention, Alaundo's prophesy is known in all parts of the Realms after all. A hooded man is one of them, your flight from Baldur's Gate gets things in motion. Waking up in the dungeon is still what it always was at least when you came from BG1. Once you get your senses back and realise where you are, the transition makes sense. The only thing SoD changes for BG2 is that it gives more detail about how Irenicus came to select you and your party (this was previously left to your imagination unless you played a mod called Drizzt Saga in BG1 which had the hooded man originally).
    BTW when you play the trilogy with EET combining the parts, you have the option to install mods that provide a consistent AI/spell/rule system across the game as well.

    Does SoD spoil BG2? >>>> No.
    ThacoBellGrond0JuliusBorisovAerakar
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 439
    To my understanding SoD Doesn't reveal anything about BG2 that isn't revealed in Chateau Irenicus.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 885
    Pokota said:

    To my understanding SoD Doesn't reveal anything about BG2 that isn't revealed in Chateau Irenicus.

    Without SoD (or having played BG1 before), you may still think that Irenicus kidnapping of you and your party was random or coincidence and not the result of careful observation and pre-planning. But latest when he appears in person and directly adresses you and Imoen you will know this for sure. And there are hints enough (the djinni, Rielev, Malaaq) if you take your time.
    semiticgodAerakar
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    Pokota said:

    To my understanding SoD Doesn't reveal anything about BG2 that isn't revealed in Chateau Irenicus.

    Without SoD (or having played BG1 before), you may still think that Irenicus kidnapping of you and your party was random or coincidence and not the result of careful observation and pre-planning. But latest when he appears in person and directly adresses you and Imoen you will know this for sure. And there are hints enough (the djinni, Rielev, Malaaq) if you take your time.
    It turns Irenicus into a moron, though. He wants the PCs soul for himself. When he frames the PC for murder, the PC might very well end up executed. If that happens....his plan fails. When he does stuff like this in SoD, basically working against himself, his legacy as one of the best villains ever made takes a steep dive.

    He also seems to have dream powers in SoD. I wonder where those came from. He doesn't have them in BG2. Those dream sequences in BG2, as we all know, isn't involving Irenicus. It is Bhaal using the image of Irenicus and Imoen in order to push the PC to embrace his bloodline. I guess the writer didn't catch that bit?
    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,324
    Of course all the dreams comes from Charname's subconcious, all dreams do. And it is ambiguous in BG2 where some came from but that adds, rather than subtracts, to the idea that Irenicus has seriously hurt/affected you and driven you half nuts.

    SOD has muddied the waters a lot about where the dreams come from. It should be impossible for Irenicus to appear in the dreams in SOD as you have never met him, don't know who is is and he is certainly not important to you.

    I have said this over and over.

    SOD, when using Irenicus, deals and is written from the perspective that BG2 has happened. That's why it spoils BG2. It relies on the player recognising the voice, it relies on the player going along with the idea that the "hooded man" is sinister/important ect. rather than being one of the randomers you have met throughout BG.

    For instance, it would make far more sense if you built from BG, that the hooded man turned out to be Winski Perorate. With Sarevok dead, he turns his attention to Charname.

    It's blatent what happened IMO, they got the voice actor late and unexpectedly, and inserted a bunch of nonsense into SOD to use his popularity.

    That's OK as far as it goes, money does make the world go round after all. But spending time justifying the cock up that resulted is really a waste of time as it never came from any artistic/creative angle.



    Rawgrim
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 702
    Thing is that Irenicus has no reason whatsoever to frame CHARNAME.
    Rawgrim
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,146
    @Rawgrim "It turns Irenicus into a moron, though. He wants the PCs soul for himself. When he frames the PC for murder, the PC might very well end up executed. If that happens....his plan fails. When he does stuff like this in SoD, basically working against himself, his legacy as one of the best villains ever made takes a steep dive."

    This argument completely falls apart when you remember that

    Irenicus is a freaking archmage that almost succeeded in reaching godhood. The idea that a handful of, at best, low to middle leveled children can in any way kill charname without Irenicus allowing it is preposterous.
    Papa_LousemiticgodBaptorHadar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,324
    How does Irenicus work in SOD?

    He's a plot device, nothing more. You find out nothing about him (which of course has to happen because of BG2).
    It's utter nonsense having him turn up lurking in the background apropos of nothing.

    He's here, there and everywhere, a bit like the Scarlet Pimpernal or as it's BG, one could honestly exclaim when he turns up,
    "nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition"
    it is that ridiculous.

    It's a wonder he didn't start muttering about "midichlorians", it is that level of clumsy.
    And so insulting to the players.
    ArtonaAndreaColomboRawgrim
  • Artemius_IArtemius_I Member Posts: 1,982
    edited June 25
    Like this is anything new. Elminster. That is all.
    Papa_LouThacoBellBaptor
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 529
    Well Elminster is a harper at the end of the day. Being intrusive do-gooders is kind of their thing and probably in-character^^ And Gorion was a harper as well, so you could make that brief connection.

    I dislike harpers in general, but Elminster is alright imo.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 1,225
    Abou the OP: I wish it did.
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 338
    Doesn't really add or spoil anything it's more of a play once or twice campaign then skip.
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 263
    I do not think it spoils anything, but I -like others- have nearly memorized BG2.
    So I advise that you listen to the two (I think) people in this threat that did not really remember BG2 and say it did not spoil anything.

    This is definitly a topic in which one should not listen that much to the veterans but to the freshlings..

    Also, Irenicus *had* to lurk in SoD. Even if he did not move the plot along, he targeted charname + party the exact bloody moment they where outside of Baldurs Gate, did you think that was some sort of coincidence? And if you are a powerful Archmage, then why wait till coincidence makes your target vulnerable if you can just nudge a bit to grease the wheels?

    Also:
    I think he watches charname as long as Sarevok does. He actually wants *two* Bhaalspawns, one for him and one for his sister. So I could also imagine that he kinda groomed them during BG1, he needed to act way more hidden, because of Elminster, but those two jsut fit perfectly in his plans and his timeframe, so you *can* argue that he is already in the picture from the beginning.. maybe killing actually competent assassins at the beginning or maybe even lure some adventurers into the region etc.. ^^
    ThacoBellRaduzieltypo_tilly
  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 94
    @themazingness

    SoD absolutely do not spoil BG2. I would say that Siege of Dragonspear connects and foreshadow Shadows of Amn. SoD ends just before SoA starts, and I think that it is good to play SoD first because there won't be a 'plot hole' as "how the f... I found myself in Athkatla (capital of Amn) which is from Baldur's Gate three time farther than Candlekeep is"...


    But because that IWD series is earlier in time, especially due to some events in Siege of Dragonspear, I think is beneficial to play IWD series before BG series (or at least IWD1 before SoD).
    ThacoBellJuliusBorisovAerakar
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 885
    Hadar said:

    @themazingness

    SoD absolutely do not spoil BG2. I would say that Siege of Dragonspear connects and foreshadow Shadows of Amn. SoD ends just before SoA starts, and I think that it is good to play SoD first because there won't be a 'plot hole' as "how the f... I found myself in Athkatla (capital of Amn) which is from Baldur's Gate three time farther than Candlekeep is"...


    But because that IWD series is earlier in time, especially due to some events in Siege of Dragonspear, I think is beneficial to play IWD series before BG series (or at least IWD1 before SoD).

    Except for a single name that is mentioned in IWD1 for ONE SINGLE time only, there is absolutely no connection whatsoever between the two games. And that name in IWD1 could have been any other name in the multiverse just as well, because it is absolutely irrelevant to the story. It is dropped a single time in the end dialogue of the game and whether the creature be called Googlimoogli or BillyBob makes no difference at all.
    Artona
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,146

    Hadar said:

    @themazingness

    SoD absolutely do not spoil BG2. I would say that Siege of Dragonspear connects and foreshadow Shadows of Amn. SoD ends just before SoA starts, and I think that it is good to play SoD first because there won't be a 'plot hole' as "how the f... I found myself in Athkatla (capital of Amn) which is from Baldur's Gate three time farther than Candlekeep is"...


    But because that IWD series is earlier in time, especially due to some events in Siege of Dragonspear, I think is beneficial to play IWD series before BG series (or at least IWD1 before SoD).

    Except for a single name that is mentioned in IWD1 for ONE SINGLE time only, there is absolutely no connection whatsoever between the two games. And that name in IWD1 could have been any other name in the multiverse just as well, because it is absolutely irrelevant to the story. It is dropped a single time in the end dialogue of the game and whether the creature be called Googlimoogli or BillyBob makes no difference at all.
    I mean there is that one reaoccurring character...
    JuliusBorisov
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    ThacoBell said:

    @Rawgrim "It turns Irenicus into a moron, though. He wants the PCs soul for himself. When he frames the PC for murder, the PC might very well end up executed. If that happens....his plan fails. When he does stuff like this in SoD, basically working against himself, his legacy as one of the best villains ever made takes a steep dive."

    This argument completely falls apart when you remember that


    Irenicus is a freaking archmage that almost succeeded in reaching godhood. The idea that a handful of, at best, low to middle leveled children can in any way kill charname without Irenicus allowing it is preposterous.
    So what? An Archmage isn't that tough. You defeat him easily at Spellhold and he runs away. He is only really dangerous when he is linked with the tree the next time you fight him.

    The city of Baldur's Gate has several archmages. Clerics and whatnot too. If Irenicus tries something in that area he will lose eventually. + Irenicus or other characters have no idea what level others are. The player might now that sometimes but the characters do not.

    What he did in SoD was utterly moronic and pretty much against his character. He risked his whole plan simply because the writer didn't understand the source material.

    Having Irenicus show up at the very end and ambush the PC and the party would have made way more sense. And it would have tied into BG2 perfectly too.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    ThacoBell said:

    Hadar said:

    @themazingness

    SoD absolutely do not spoil BG2. I would say that Siege of Dragonspear connects and foreshadow Shadows of Amn. SoD ends just before SoA starts, and I think that it is good to play SoD first because there won't be a 'plot hole' as "how the f... I found myself in Athkatla (capital of Amn) which is from Baldur's Gate three time farther than Candlekeep is"...


    But because that IWD series is earlier in time, especially due to some events in Siege of Dragonspear, I think is beneficial to play IWD series before BG series (or at least IWD1 before SoD).

    Except for a single name that is mentioned in IWD1 for ONE SINGLE time only, there is absolutely no connection whatsoever between the two games. And that name in IWD1 could have been any other name in the multiverse just as well, because it is absolutely irrelevant to the story. It is dropped a single time in the end dialogue of the game and whether the creature be called Googlimoogli or BillyBob makes no difference at all.
    I mean there is that one reaoccurring character...
    The demon you mean? The one you somehow manage to kill in his own plane, despite this being completely impossible according to the lore?
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Hadar said:

    @themazingness

    SoD absolutely do not spoil BG2. I would say that Siege of Dragonspear connects and foreshadow Shadows of Amn. SoD ends just before SoA starts, and I think that it is good to play SoD first because there won't be a 'plot hole' as "how the f... I found myself in Athkatla (capital of Amn) which is from Baldur's Gate three time farther than Candlekeep is"...


    But because that IWD series is earlier in time, especially due to some events in Siege of Dragonspear, I think is beneficial to play IWD series before BG series (or at least IWD1 before SoD).

    How you got to Athkatla is explained in BG2. So...not a plot hole. And if SoD ends right before SoA starts....you do have a plot-hole. Viconia says in BG2 that she lived for a time at a farm in Beregost. This is not possible since she is in SoD with the PC. It also would take her a few months to get from Beregost to Athkatla as well. So...
    OrlonKronsteen
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,146
    @Rawgrim "So what? An Archmage isn't that tough. You defeat him easily at Spellhold and he runs away. He is only really dangerous when he is linked with the tree the next time you fight him."

    You're also around level 15ish at this point, that's near demigod levels, the dukes of BG are already weaker than you at the end of BG1, let alone being able to stand up to an archmage.

    "The demon you mean? The one you somehow manage to kill in his own plane, despite this being completely impossible according to the lore?"

    Yes, and you also rise to epic levels and become stronger than ELminster in the span of a few months, which is also impossible according to lore. Your point?

    "How you got to Athkatla is explained in BG2. So...not a plot hole. And if SoD ends right before SoA starts....you do have a plot-hole. Viconia says in BG2 that she lived for a time at a farm in Beregost. This is not possible since she is in SoD with the PC. It also would take her a few months to get from Beregost to Athkatla as well. So... "


    You do realize that times passes between BG1 and SoD right? There is also an undisclosed amount of time between SoD and BG2. Also, waking up and learning "you're in Amn now, lol." is NOT an explanation.
    typo_tillyJuliusBorisovmegamike15
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,010
    edited July 8
    Travel time to carry your party to Athkatla + time being tortured by Irenicus = ??? how many weeks or months? Irenicus may have had other bases, so taking you from one place to the other is another possibility.

    However, the start of BG2 already has a plot hole, even without SoD. In BG2, charname wakes up after being tortured. But Imoen and Jaheira both have memories of being tortured before that point. It's believable to me that Irenicus has been torturing your characters for a long time, mind-wiping them on occasion. But it never sat well with me that Imoen seemed to remember further back than charname. Why would Irenicus mind wipe charname yet no one else? I can't think of a good explanation for this.

    There are other plot holes in BG. So many that I'm really not bothered by anything that SoD added to the list. Didn't we have a plot holes thread around here?
    - CHARNAME potentially starting out as an old man (portrait, voice set) even though he should be the same age as Imoen.
    - Being able to resurrect Imoen even though she's a Bhaalspawn.
    - Draconis, the son of a Bhaalspawn, being an adult dragon.
    - I'm sure some of the dates are wrong in some of the books and journals with regards to the Time of Troubles or BG's time-line within the ToT.



    Uh... and I hope themazingness didn't read too far into this thread, seeing as how they hadn't played BG2 when they posted this and didn't want major spoilers. XD
    ThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member Posts: 164


    Uh... and I hope themazingness didn't read too far into this thread, seeing as how they hadn't played BG2 when they posted this and didn't want major spoilers. XD

    We're good at this point :D.

    typo_tillyThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 389
    Well, the biggest "spoil" SoD done to BG2 is actually the romance encounter mod of Eldoth, who still complains Skie's big feet as if nothing's happened to her :p
2»
Sign In or Register to comment.