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Getting sick of the Beamdog bashing in the wake of PST:EE

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  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    @shawne

    I do think, if they release PST:EE in the state that they released IWD2 in, you would shelf over money for it (unless it doesnt interest you).

    I wouldn't blame you for not preordering though due to their track record or even wait for it to go on sale for the cheap. I personally was contempating waiting for the gog or steam to bundle it with Numenera but wanted in on my tablet soonish.
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403

    By the way, when people complain about "bugs" in video games in this day and age, I have to chuckle. Every video game ships with bugs. Some of the best games of all time, nearly EVERY Bethesda title, etc etc etc. Need I remind everyone that Baldur's Gate, when first released, was buggy as hell. And a few years before that, if you bought a game, that was just how it was going to be for you, bugs or not. Be thankful we live in a time where developers are constantly issuing patches and fixes to move their games to something close to a flawless state, and that we have that ability at our fingertips in seconds. This stuff used to require a gargantuan effort to even track down if it existed at all.

    I get what your saying about patches. I remember Jowood released a game called chaser which needed to be patched to fix the installer! But considering how slow beamdog has been in releasing patches it's pretty ridiculous they expect people to pre order future releases when current ones aren't getting the attention they deserve.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2017
    kanisatha said:

    Sorry, @shawne but your argument just doesn't hold water. When someone says that Beamdog is "stealing" other people's work, that can be challenged. When someone says Beamdog's EEs are no more than the original games + mods, that can be challenged. Much of what the haters are saying is outright false, and one doesn't have to be a defender of Beamdog's work or a fanboy to stand against lies.

    Of course not - all I'm pointing out is that very few people who aren't already fans are going to go out of their way to do so. Beamdog hasn't earned that kind of trust or goodwill (as opposed to, say, Obsidian or Harebrained Schemes).
    deltago said:

    @shawne

    I do think, if they release PST:EE in the state that they released IWD2 in, you would shelf over money for it (unless it doesnt interest you).

    I wouldn't blame you for not preordering though due to their track record or even wait for it to go on sale for the cheap. I personally was contempating waiting for the gog or steam to bundle it with Numenera but wanted in on my tablet soonish.

    Literally my first comment when the news broke was "Wake me in six months when/if they sort the bugs." I'm not opposed to the idea of the greatest RPG ever made getting an Enhanced Edition - but I'm not going to be waving my pompoms for a dev team that could charitably be described as always taking the easiest/laziest path with its various releases.

    By the way, when people complain about "bugs" in video games in this day and age, I have to chuckle. Every video game ships with bugs. Some of the best games of all time, nearly EVERY Bethesda title, etc etc etc. Need I remind everyone that Baldur's Gate, when first released, was buggy as hell. And a few years before that, if you bought a game, that was just how it was going to be for you, bugs or not. Be thankful we live in a time where developers are constantly issuing patches and fixes to move their games to something close to a flawless state, and that we have that ability at our fingertips in seconds. This stuff used to require a gargantuan effort to even track down if it existed at all.

    I mean... this is Fanboyism, Exhibit A. The state of affairs fifteen or twenty years ago is completely irrelevant to what's expected today - especially when you yourself point out that the current standard is consistent maintenance. Why should Beamdog be exempt from that? Why are we supposed to be "grateful" that they set up bug trackers and public betas and then don't patch their games for months at a time?
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    "I mean... this is Fanboyism, Exhibit A." You disagree, therefore fanboyism!
  • spacejawsspacejaws Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 389
    Uh I wouldn't use Bethesda as a good example of patching here. Fallout 3 received all of it's patches in less than a year then got nothing even though many of the bugs remained. The console versions recieved very little in terms of patches and the PS3 version is notorious for being well almost unplayable. If Beamdog followed Bethesdas example you would have had the most barebone support and then it would have been dumped for the next game and left for the community to fix "everything". Also keep in mind that Beamdog are not working with an inhouse engine that they know intimately. Every step has been a learning experience and it shows with the quality of every new patch or release.

    The fact that beamdog is actually still commited to supporting these games this far is pretty unheard of for a single player rpg rerelease. How many patches has the EE version recieved compared to the original release?

    Also for all the mess of Fallout 3 it still recieved Game of the Year and very high critical acclaim. The bugs and terrible support hardly held it back. Even today some people find it unplayable on PC due to the nonesense Games for Windows Live inclusion.

    So well I could say critism is all well and good but giving credit where credit is due can't hurt can it?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited April 2017
    I've played over 200 hrs of the Baldur's Gate EE games in the last two years and ran into one bug where a NPC didn't show up in the government district, which it did the next time after loading a save.
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403

    I've played over 200 hrs of the Baldur's Gate EE games in the last two years and ran into one bug where a NPC didn't show up in the government district, which it did the next time after loading a save.

    Guess you haven't dabbled much in to multiplayer that's horrible at times.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Wesboi said:

    I've played over 200 hrs of the Baldur's Gate EE games in the last two years and ran into one bug where a NPC didn't show up in the government district, which it did the next time after loading a save.

    Guess you haven't dabbled much in to multiplayer that's horrible at times.
    I've played a lot of multiplayer, and, honestly, I never had much trouble besides lag (at least after 1.3), and weird dialog problems that can't be replicated. Which both were in the original, if you could make it run.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    Yeah, the majority of reviews were likely people who had ~issues~ with one of the NPCs. I mean if you compare review scores on GOG and Metacritic (where you don't have to own the game to review it) to reviews on Steam (which does require you to own the game to review it, and the reviews are "mostly positive" there).
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403

    Yeah, the majority of reviews were likely people who had ~issues~ with one of the NPCs. I mean if you compare review scores on GOG and Metacritic (where you don't have to own the game to review it) to reviews on Steam (which does require you to own the game to review it, and the reviews are "mostly positive" there).

    Yeah the one npc... forget about the poor writing the mediocre fights what went for the more is harder style gameplay and how many of that beamdog team are still on board. Some people are easily pleased while others aren't. The best thing beamdog has done with PST is highlighted they haven't messed about with the written content that's probably there saving grace.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited April 2017
    Artona said:

    There is nothing adult about disallowing or discouraging criticism. It's perfectly okay to talk about things we don't like in the game. Some critical opinions are not as valid as others, of course.

    Maybe I didn't phrase what I meant really well. I by no mean want to discourage critics and discussions, more the hammering of the same arguments over and over again, mainly over points where the different "camps" won't budge an inch on their respective positions... If we could actually get over that "camp" logic and just speak about these things in level headed and mature way, I would gladly go on speaking about various points of SoD (which is not perfect, but nowhere near as bad as some people made it out to be).

    With the release of PSTEE, maybe I got too caught up in the drama... I'll leave these discussions for a while, and maybe come back to it later, when the dust will settle a bit more.
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403
    Hopefully with the team reshuffle it's a step in the right direction and it shows they are prepared to set right the previous wrongs. Just hope they don't mess up again.
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    If that was your point @Arctodus, then I totally agree. :) Sometimes it feels for me that people treat video games waaaay too seriously, as if presence of Mizhena in the camp was samehow personal insult - or, on the other side, as if any criticism towards the game was forcing you to stop liking it
    I don't know the reason for that and that phenomena really baffles me.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    Artona said:

    "Can't we just act like adults ? If somebody doesn't like the decisions made by Beamdog, that's OK, just don't buy their stuff..."

    There is nothing adult about disallowing or discouraging criticism. It's perfectly okay to talk about things we don't like in the game. Some critical opinions are not as valid as others, of course.

    I agree, however, that SoD writing isn't terrible, and I'm pretty convinced that nostalgia makes people consider writing of BG1 and BG2 better than it really is.

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/811554#Comment_811554

    Not saying people have to agree with Gaider on this and it isn't the first time I've seen a writer revisit his earlier work and found it wanting(fans disagreeing) But it's an interesting post and seeing developers comment on their past work is always interesting imo.

    As for vanilla BG1 I think the npc writing, if you can even call it that, is ridiculously thin and weak. If anything I would call it good character profiles with ''potential'' That's why the npc project exists I guess, but at the end of the day that is fan written content and shouldn't really be included when evaluating the vanilla game. So basically if bg1 released today with mostly ''mute'' npcs, I'm not sure how I would react to it... And I certainly hope purists don't go around lauding BG1 for it's fantastic npcs, because for me that feels sketchy...

    At the same time I don't believe it wasn't beamdogs job to try and fix what seemed like sexist caricatures from bg1 either. Like the oddness of Eldoth being excluded altogether, since he could have been used in conjunction for Skies character development or I don't know ''something'' lol... I'm too lazy to continue that train of thought. I mainly mentioned Eldoth since he's the most noticeable, given his personality and all.
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403
    edited April 2017
    Dee said:

    I'm just going to say this: the folks who lost their jobs last summer were great people and talented developers. If no one else is going to stick up for them, I will: the "shuffle" had nothing to do with people's performance, and everything to do with budget.

    I say that on behalf of the other people who suddenly and painfully found themselves without work after pouring their hearts into these beloved franchises. Stop making these people into scapegoats for whatever frustrations you may be feeling. It's not their fault.

    People's performance often involves and has a reflection on budget. If an amazing product had been released sales would of been higher which normally triggers bonus and contract extensions. Sub par performance often ends in disciplinary action of some sort. It's how business works. I have to manage people on a daily basis if they don't perform they don't pass the 12 week review. If they pass they still get daily targets and have to be reviewed daily. It's how business works and at the end of the day I'm not at work to make friends. Sounds harsh but I have my own bills to pay and I want my bonus at the end of the year.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    I'm still a little melancholy over their departure. At least a couple of you are still somewhat active on the forums.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited April 2017
    You really need look no farther than the recent attacks on a female programmer at Bioware when the Gamegate brigade seemed to be convinced something they didn't like about the graphics in Mass Effect: Andromeda was her fault. The Siege controversy was simply another skirmish in that fight. If the online sociopaths are mad at you, you're probably doing things the right way.
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