the funny thing is, I must one of the only people in world who is not the biggest fan of insect plague, because if im not mistaken, that spell can hit your team mates, and on insane difficulty ( and especially if you play with game NPCs) that spell can whittle down low HP characters quite fast, I find myself quite content using iron skins and mass heal for my level 5 spells if I have a druid
Unless you have a mod installed that changes its behavior, Insect Plague is entirely party-friendly. In fact, you can cast an Insect Plague directly on a party member and it still won't damage them. (Even if it did hit party members, it only deals 18 damage per cast at a rate of 3 damage per round, though yes Insane difficulty would increase that to a more substantial sum.)
Basically, it's a huge party-friendly area-of-effect silence that offers no save and can't be vocalized away, and just happens to deal a tiny amount of damage and occasionally causes enemies to panic to boot, because I guess it wasn't amazing enough to begin with. Everything Silence 10' Radius was in BG1, Insect Plague is in BG2, and more.
This thread is weird. What is even the point of arguing about a pure Druid vs. pure Cleric? There isn't even a representation of each in the entire saga(Viconia comes closest as a pure Cleric, but then she's a Drow with the curveball of MR)
Similarly, both pure Cleric and pure Druid CHARNAME would be equally "bad" to me. At least make it a multiclass with a Fighter, then it's uptime(Cleric, can wear full plate) vs. spike(Druid, can cast iron skins)
On a side note, did anyone here ever actually cast the "turn me into a fighter" Cleric spells? The fact that they SET your Strength to lower than what you will almost certainly have as a CHARNAME Cleric always made me think of them as completely useless. I guess you could cast one as Viconia to do extra few points damage with her sling, if you're REALLY bored?
This thread is weird. What is even the point of arguing about a pure Druid vs. pure Cleric? There isn't even a representation of each in the entire saga(Viconia comes closest as a pure Cleric, but then she's a Drow with the curveball of MR)
Similarly, both pure Cleric and pure Druid CHARNAME would be equally "bad" to me. At least make it a multiclass with a Fighter, then it's uptime(Cleric, can wear full plate) vs. spike(Druid, can cast iron skins)
On a side note, did anyone here ever actually cast the "turn me into a fighter" Cleric spells? The fact that they SET your Strength to lower than what you will almost certainly have as a CHARNAME Cleric always made me think of them as completely useless. I guess you could cast one as Viconia to do extra few points damage with her sling, if you're REALLY bored?
There are a couple pure clerics and pure druids. Branwen, Viconia, and Faldorn in BG1, (Viconia has the magic resistance, but lots of NPCs have little quirks to them, like Mazzy's innate Haste/Strength spells or Minsc's berserk). Viconia and Cernd in BG2.
I typically don't use most of the Cleric buffs simply because for my playstyle I'm not a fan of prebuffing. But Holy Power (sets your strength to 18/00 gives you Fighter THACO, boosts your HP by one per level) can be a useful THACO boost, and Righteous Magic / Draw Upon Holy Might will boost your strength from there anyway. For a high-level cleric, that three-spell combo will give +6 THACO (plus whatever you get from your strength bonus), +40 HP, +6 dex, 25 strength, and max damage per attack.
It's a pretty slick trio except for the fact that it still leaves the Cleric stuck at 1 attack per round and therefore useless at melee. (But if you're a Priest of Lathander, you can drop a Boon for a further +1 THACO, +1 damage, and 1 extra APR, plus Boon stacks with itself so you can even drop four of them at once to get all the way to 5 APR.)
Youre not useless at melee if you have one APR. The ability to soak a shitload of damage and slowly but steadily hurt your foes is enough for things like bone golems, who are otherwise a pain in the arse.
To be brutally honest, from the cleric spell selection i only miss remove paralysis when I play a druid.
But the topic oozes with (holy) smite.
What's so great about remove paralysis?
It depends on your play-style honestly. I just drop Free Action on everyone, but the spell's very powerful, besides being the only spell in the game that cures disablers, and putting it on a Contingency if you're a C/M on Helpless is a real life-saver some times.
The problem to me is that I do not have that many spell slots so I would not know whom to cast it on pre-emptively, so it is easier to keep a remove paralysis memorized for when it counts. This in turn leads me to never use free action at all (and it helps also in not having to do the awkward haste-free action spell order). Just play style difference. If i were to recommend someone to play better, your way would be what I would recommend.
Btw, another weird choice of me. I like dualing out of lathander into a ranger rather than those fighter duals.
Ok, so I when I tested clerics, I did not bother testing the cleric of helm, because I thought 1 round sword isn't gonna change much compared to other clerics. However, I tested it now, and yes it lasts more than 1 round (but whether it is ten rounds or somewhat less, I cannot say). Verdict: So, ok, cleric of helm is not entirely useless. I still say shapeshifter wins though.
Why, you ask;
3rd black pits fight, cleric: Most clerics get eaten alive by Bort, since he is immune to hold. However, a priest of helm will defeat Bort in melee... HOWEVER, his pals will swamp the cleric. So, to win, you must cast hold on the other guys, most specifically Reginald, and hope that Bort does not reach you by then so he will have a whole round to bash you, and possibly interrupt your sword.
Shapeshifter: Cast entangle (not on them, but on the ground where you expect they will be), and if he is free, use charm person or mammal on Reginald. If you get Reginald and Bort to fight, great! That could be a win right there... Depending on who gets out of the tangle first, either charm someone, or turn into werewolf and rip them apart. Remember that you have two werewolf charges, so you can turn back into a human, cast spells, and turn back to wolf again, if need be.
For neither cleric nor druid is this an easy fight, but I do believe it is easier for druid. I have not done extensive testing, mind you, so if you believe I am biased towards druid, go ahead and try it yourself.
So, whats the snag with clerics? Well, the sword of helm disables spells, but unlike shapeshift, you cannot cancel it at will. It also does not increase your movement rate, like werewolf does, which is excellent for a tactical regroup. Finally, you only get 1 helm sword (ok, 2 at lvl 10), compared to lots and lots of werewolf charges. The shapeshifter seamlessly shifts between spellcaster and fighter (well, somewhat at least. Unfortunately, you cannot cast spells the round you turn into wolf or back, which is annoying.) And also, you do not heal HP when turning into werewolf, like you should. Repeatedly turning into werewolf when already a werewolf to regain HP should work This needs patching, but since I am programming illiterate, so all I can do is whine about it.
Also, I created a dwarf like suggested. Dwarves cannot have more than 17 dex, and with a platemail and a large shield, the total AC becomes -1, and NOT -4, as suggested. A shapeshifted druid, with one PIP in single weapon, gets -2. Unfortunately, barkskin does not stack with the natural AC of werewolves. Which is odd, I think. I mean, it makes sense that it does not stack with armor... but werewolves do not wear armor! They are just very very agile and buff. It should work like swashbuckler and dragon disciple AC bonuses. Another thing to patch...
Edit: And also, command is overrated. I mean it is good, but it's not that good.
While we are on the topic of druids, I was just wondering for future reference, when is the best time (in BG2 naturally) to dual into fighter to get the fighter HLA:s? (Werewolf +1 APR and (19 str of course) stacks nicely with fighter APR, and if you have a teammate dispelling your claws, even better.) (You could also do an avenger, since books will raise your str to 17, enough to dual) (From fighter is quite obvious, at lvl 13, or mb 18 if you want 2 PIPS in single weapon for AC bonuses as well I suppose) http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Druid http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter I would say 15, to get those extra five level 7 spells as well as poison immunity (not sure how good that is, you can just use an elixirs of health, but every little but I suppose), however, the jump from 1,5 mil to 3,0 mil from 14 to 15 is REALLY uncalled for (as if druids are not crippled enough as it is, for the reasons I mentioned in the first post)! I think that it is THE most XP expensive lvl 15 class - not even paladins cost that much! (So even more patching is necessary for balance...) I think you get between 6 and 7 million XP by the time you end the game if I remember correctly, so I guess you could wait til lvl 15, but...
Having never rolled a cleric or druid charname, my only experience with the class is through NPCs. Druids even less so, as I don't think I've ever taken Cernd or Faldorn along, so Jaheira would be my only druid experience.
So, I'm far from an expert on either class.
That being said, I thought this thread is really interesting thus far. It's cool to see everyone's brains sift through all those numbers and write it into a post.
On a side note, did anyone here ever actually cast the "turn me into a fighter" Cleric spells? The fact that they SET your Strength to lower than what you will almost certainly have as a CHARNAME Cleric always made me think of them as completely useless. I guess you could cast one as Viconia to do extra few points damage with her sling, if you're REALLY bored?
I am puzzled by how it is a major goal of IR to remove all flat Strength buffs in favor of cumulative Strength buffs, but not in SR where there's also plenty of flat Str buffs.
IIRC, 18 Str would be a +2 Str in IR.
That would be a fantastical nerf to Viconia and Aerie, or a good buff to Anomen or any PC Cleric.
I personally do not use the spells, partly because I do not play Cleric NPCs and also a lack of realizing the utility of +Str spells. I have still thought about going through and editing +Str spells to not be flat because it just seems wierd that a 80 lb weakling like Aerie can suddenly become as strong as Sarevok. Or that my demigod PC actually loses Str (19 post BG1 to 18).
Also just noticed that Righteous Magic causes all hits to do max damage for 1 ROUND PER LEVEL. Eat your heart out Kensais and Blades, your 10-18 seconds can suck it.
On a side note, did anyone here ever actually cast the "turn me into a fighter" Cleric spells? The fact that they SET your Strength to lower than what you will almost certainly have as a CHARNAME Cleric always made me think of them as completely useless. I guess you could cast one as Viconia to do extra few points damage with her sling, if you're REALLY bored?
You bet!
In my last BG1 + SoD playthrough, my cleric of Helm surpassed Ajantis and Minsc in kill count. And I don't even systematically prebuff. I either do it while the first tank is drawing flak (and retreat and switch with the buffed cleric) or when the game gives me a clear indication that a big fight is about to happen.
Druid dualed to fighter I usually do when I get level 6 spells. So level 11/12. You can also do it when you get level 5 spells. Depends a bit on what you want to do with the druid part.
I've only had a quick read through the thread, so might have missed it, but I haven't noticed anyone mentioning that DUHM can be cast by any PC, irrespective of class. It therefore seems a bit odd to single that particular spell out as the saviour of clerics - especially given some of the other amazing spells they get, such as silence, sanctuary and animate dead.
I've only had a quick read through the thread, so might have missed it, but I haven't noticed anyone mentioning that DUHM can be cast by any PC, irrespective of class. It therefore seems a bit odd to single that particular spell out as the saviour of clerics - especially given some of the other amazing spells they get, such as silence, sanctuary and animate dead.
OP was specifically talking about the Black Pits... so no Bhaalspawn need apply.
Druid dualed to fighter I usually do when I get level 6 spells. So level 11/12. You can also do it when you get level 5 spells. Depends a bit on what you want to do with the druid part.
Well, if you are a shapeshifter, you at least will want to wait for lvl 13 for greater werewolf. But really, I want 7th level spells for this one; http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Nature's_Beauty
It isnt the best spell in world, especially not with that +3 bonus to the opponents saving throw, but it is amusing - you kill people from longing with your dazzling beuty. This is more fun than a wild surge and a jester combined!
That takes forever. I would just stay pure druid in that case.
Yeah, I think so too, 3 million XP is outrageous. I think I will level the druid to 13 - thats just 750 000 XP - and then keeper in natures beuty when I reach 14 lvl fighter.
From a powergaming perspective, I really have not managed to find a use for druids in any configuration I've tried (both with and without mods). They just don't offer enough compared to alternatives. Support/Utility cleric does better, while defense/offense is better handled by mages - talking dual/multiclass of course, as pure classes are a bit taint for PG.
A large part of this, I think, is because the trade-off druids face because of their shapeshifting; which, let's face it, is just not very good outside of BG1 (and maybe SoD, haven't played that yet). Their pseudo-proficiency with melee combat is almost entirely negated by simply dualing a fighter, and so you're left with a book full of admittedly interesting and flavorful but just not particularly powerful spells. There's maybe 3 spells or so that druids have and clerics don't that are noteworthy in any way. Iron Skins is great, no question. Insects are, too, unless you're playing with SCS and have elemental shields blocking all insects which makes the spell largely useless. And the high level summons are great, if summons are your thing (though they are by no means exceptional to the point of completely outclassing cleric/mage summons). That's about it. All the other spells are situational and/or mediocre performers. In my opinion, this has for a large part to do with the fact that they are more offensively oriented, and offense is just so much better left to fighting rather than casting. Where spells shine is their defensive/supportive/utility potential, and druid has a notable lack of party buffs - which are a big draw to cleric in PG since most of them effectively scale with your overall party quality.
Depending on your mod setup, there IS, however, one very powerful druid combination that should be noted: Wizard Slayer->Druid dual can use Fire Seeds to apply spell failure in a large radius, becoming a ridiculous mage-killing machine that walks all over casters even to the level of liches. Unfortunately that power is severely curbed by mods such as IR/SR.
From a powergaming perspective, I really have not managed to find a use for druids in any configuration I've tried (both with and without mods). They just don't offer enough compared to alternatives. Support/Utility cleric does better, while defense/offense is better handled by mages - talking dual/multiclass of course, as pure classes are a bit taint for PG.
Divine casters have one big advantage that I rarely see mentioned - Wisdom gives them more spell slots, and the saga is extremely generous when giving out the Wisdom bonuses.
You can get three Wisdom points in BG alone from Tomes, and another three in SoA/ToB: solving the Test of Wrath the "good" way, Machine of Lum the Mad, and Deck of Many Things if your primary class is a divine caster.
Therefore if you start with 18 Wisdom as you should, you will have 24 Wisdom by the time the game is over. This nets you three extra level 1 spells, three extra level 2 spells, two extra level 3 spells, four extra level 4 spells, four extra level 5 spells and two extra level 6 spells. That is a damn lot of extra spells. So anyone comparing Clerics/Druids vs. Mages should keep that in mind.
Furthermore, while I said that Clerics have "Uptime"(Because their full plate is always "on") and Druids have "Spike"(Because Iron Skins are great but temporary) even that is not necessarily the case, because Druids can completley sidestep their class armor restrictions by wearing Ankheg Plate(BG) and Dragon Scales(SoA) which are very good armors - maybe not as good as full plate, but they're pretty close. And certainly much closer than Fighter/Mage with Robe of Vecna, who basically becomes useless the moment their Stoneskins run out and has to rest or limit themselves to pelting the enemies from second/third line.
I find it hard to compare Clerics and Druids when it comes to spells as their separate spell lists are impossible to find. But from what I know, when it comes to self-buffing, Druids are much better than Clerics because, again, Iron Skin. Clerics have an array of self-buff spells like Righteous Magic or whatnot, which unfortunately become useless halfway through Baldur's Gate when you get 19 Strength, at which point these spells actually end up hurting you more than helping you.
Well, that is assuming you are running a Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Druid multiclass, or dual a fighter-type into a Cleric or Druid. I really see no point in running a pure Cleric or Druid around as the main character.
This is the problem with threads like these, there's just so many variables that it's hard to just compare one class against the other. For example, Dwarves and Half-Orcs cannot be Druids or Fighter/Druids - shouldn't that also be taken into account when comparing Clerics vs. Druids? Missing out on Dwarven saving throws or Half-Orc bonus STR is a large factor when picking a class. Or what about Druid/Cleric exclusive magical items? Druids cannot wield Crom Faeyr or Flail of Ages... and so on.
Depending on your mod setup, there IS, however, one very powerful druid combination that should be noted: Wizard Slayer->Druid dual can use Fire Seeds to apply spell failure in a large radius, becoming a ridiculous mage-killing machine that walks all over casters even to the level of liches.
A druid can pass fire seeds to other party members - so a wizard slayer in a party can use this tactic without needing to dual.
Clerics have an array of self-buff spells like Righteous Magic or whatnot, which unfortunately become useless halfway through Baldur's Gate when you get 19 Strength, at which point these spells actually end up hurting you more than helping you.
It sounds like you're not casting the spells in the best order. Holy power sets strength to 18(00), but only at the point of casting. If you follow that by righteous magic and then DUHM you can not only have fighter THAC0, extra HPs and maximum damage per hit, but all the benefits of 25 strength (max 22 in BG1).
It sounds like you're not casting the spells in the best order. Holy power sets strength to 18(00), but only at the point of casting. If you follow that by righteous magic and then DUHM you can not only have fighter THAC0, extra HPs and maximum damage per hit, but all the benefits of 25 strength (max 22 in BG1).
Hmmm... would simply re-equipping Crom Faeyr work also?
Divine casters have one big advantage that I rarely see mentioned - Wisdom gives them more spell slots, and the saga is extremely generous when giving out the Wisdom bonuses.
More uses for spells that are unimpressive still leaves them... unimpressive. Clerics also get WIS bonuses, and get them as a fighter hybrid just the same. It doesn't really add any particular appeal to Druid over Cleric, and compared to Mages their spells are simply too different to compare anyway. Given how easy and forgiving gratuitous resting is in BG2, spell slots are not as big an advantage as you may think.
much closer than Fighter/Mage with Robe of Vecna, who basically becomes useless the moment their Stoneskins run out and has to rest or limit themselves to pelting the enemies from second/third line.
If you are running out of defensive with a tank-oriented Mage, my guess would be you should simply change your setup and/or strategy for that particular fight. I don't see multiple Stoneskins just running out on a well-geared and well-buffed Mage, even on LoB mode. Not unless something else went wrong.
I find it hard to compare Clerics and Druids when it comes to spells as their separate spell lists are impossible to find. But from what I know, when it comes to self-buffing, Druids are much better than Clerics because, again, Iron Skin. Clerics have an array of self-buff spells like Righteous Magic or whatnot, which unfortunately become useless halfway through Baldur's Gate when you get 19 Strength, at which point these spells actually end up hurting you more than helping you.
Pretty sure RM does not set your STR to <19, but it's been a while since I played unmodded. If you're talking BG1, things are much closer - in BG2/ToB, DuHM alone can get you to 25s, which is quite substantial.
A druid can pass fire seeds to other party members - so a wizard slayer in a party can use this tactic without needing to dual.
Yes, but then you have two slots to classes that are meh on their own. Rather combine them in one and make them actually decent.
Also, since Crom Faeyr was mentioned multiple times: it's far from redundant with a Cleric around, simply because you can just... not give it to the Cleric. And then you have 2 characters with 25 STR rather than 1.
Me, personally, I love divine spell slots, because of healing healing healing. Second level druid spells are all meh except charm person or mammal and maybe perhaps barkskin (which clerics also get, like wtf, that one should be druid/ranger only, its obviosly a nature spell) if you gots monks or kensai or the like and of course if there are trolls abound, fire sword (which clerics also get, but it makes sense for both classes so no complaints here). I mean, clerics at least got aid, which while admittingly sucky does heal. What do druids get? Goodberry, a grand total of five healed HP over FIVE ROUNDS, during which you cannot use any other ability, potion or spell because of magic rounds - and that is if you have the patience to rearrenge your inventory followed by clickety clicking five times. The first level healing spell is actually much better than the second!
Now, all of this is compensated, of course, by nymphs, whose healing spell is so good, you actually do bother to use it even during a fight, not just in between - note that the nymph actually use YOUR caster level for mass cure (at least I think they do, from my own observations), so a ten level druid with 18 wis gets a total healing power of ((4 x 11-18 HP) x # wounded party members). Also, please to be noted that mass cure is actually a fifth level spell, so you get a fifth level spell at level four, + some hold persons and charms and the like + some minor damage soaking. Unfortunately, nymphs in BGEE are unruly as hell. No matter what you tell them to do, they will do whatever they feel like, which, for reasons I cannot comprehend, is to engage succesfully held creatures in a kissing session. I seem to remember that before EE, nymphs were much easier to control (or maybe it is just a black pits thing, just like charm and dominate etc sometimes glitches and you immediately lose control even though they did not succeed their saving throw). In either case, the nymph AI needs to be patched to hell and back again, because their current unrulyness is a major cause of aggravation, the kind that would have made me throw my NES-controller in the floor, if I were younger and BGee was for the NES.
Druid spells are great *cough*afterlevel3*cough* I don't see how they are unimpressive at all. I consistenly choose having a druid in my party over a cleric.
I find it hard to compare Clerics and Druids when it comes to spells as their separate spell lists are impossible to find. But from what I know, when it comes to self-buffing, Druids are much better than Clerics because, again, Iron Skin. Clerics have an array of self-buff spells like Righteous Magic or whatnot, which unfortunately become useless halfway through Baldur's Gate when you get 19 Strength, at which point these spells actually end up hurting you more than helping you.
Going from memory so it's possible there are some mistakes, but
Level 1 Both get: Armor of Faith, Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Evil, Doom, Shillelagh Clerics get: Sanctuary, Remove Fear, Command, Magical Stone, Protection from Evil Druids get: Entangle Avengers get: Chromatic Orb Commentary: The Cleric selection dominates at lower levels, but eventually mostly all you're really going to be memorizing is Armor of Faith, Cure Light Wounds, and Doom, anyway, with maybe one Remove Fear just in case. (Sanctuary is baller for a Cleric/Thief, but otherwise I usually just use Invisibility from my mages.) The Avenger's Chromatic Orb actually is pretty great throughout the saga for troll killing, if nothing else.
Level 2 Both get: Barkskin, Find Traps, Flame Blade, Know Alignment, Resist Fire/Cold, Slow Poison Clerics get: Aid, Chant, DUHM, Hold Person, Silence 15' Radius, Spiritual Hammer Druids get: Charm Person or Mammal, Goodberry (lol) Avengers get: Web (omg) Commentary: Oh my god Druid Level 2 Spells suck so damn hard, outside of early-game use of CPoM when enemy saves are terrible or cheesy abuse against enemies that don't start off hostile. A strong case could be made that the three best level 2 spells are all cleric-only (Silence, Hold, DUHM). Of course, a strong case could be made that Web is better than all of them; I'd say level 2 Web is probably the single greatest selling point of the Avenger kit.
Level 3 Both get: Cure Disease, Cure Medium Wounds, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Miscast Magic, Protection from Fire, Rigid Thinking, Strength of One Clerics get: Animate Dead, Glyph of Warding, (un)Holy Smite, Remove Curse, Remove Paralysis, Zone of Sweet Air Druids get: Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Summon Insects Avengers get: Lightning Bolt Commentary: A mixed bag. Despite what you might read, Animate Dead is amazing from jump street, but by the time it really starts getting ridiculous the Druid will be getting some top-notch summons of his own. Zone of Sweet Air is a nice convenience spell, but Holy Smite and Remove Paralysis are the real gems here. Call Lightning is ridiculously good in outdoor areas, enough to almost make this level a wash IMO, but useless indoors, giving Clerics another massive edge. I do like Summon Insects as a replacement for Miscast Magic, too, using the much weaker-for-mages Save vs. Breath (and offering a bigger penalty, to boot). But Clerics already have Silence, which is probably better than either. The Avenger's Lightning Bolt is potentially powerful, but I hate trying to use that spell.
Level 4 Both get: Animal Summoning 1, Cause Serious Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cloak of Fear, Death Ward, Defensive Harmony, Farsight, Negative Plane Protection, Neutralize Poison, Poison, Protection from Lightning Clerics get: Free Action, Holy Power, Lesser Restoration, Mental Domination, Protection from Evil 10' Radius Druids get: Call Woodland Beings Avengers get: Improved Invisibility Commentary: Another mixed bag. Holy Power, Free Action, and Domination are all totally usable, but PfE 10' is the real gem here. (Lesser Restoration is also great, but Restoration scrolls are cheap, plentiful, and usable for Druids, so that's no huge loss.) Meanwhile, Druids only get one spell, but what a spell it is. Call Woodland Beings is basically a free Mass Heal (level 5 spell) that comes equipped with a lot of extra free castings of some of the better Save or Else spells. I tend to consider this one a slight edge for the druid, and a solid edge for the Avenger.
Level 5 Both get: Animal Summoning 2, Cause Critical Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds, Chaotic Commands, Magic Resistance, Mass Cure, True Seeing Clerics get: Champion's Strength, Flame Strike, Greater Command, Raise Dead, Repulse Undead, Righteous Magic, Slay Living Druids get: Insect Plague, Iron Skins, Pixie Dust Avengers get: Chaos Commentary: Druids win in a knockout. Flame Strike, Greater Command, and Righteous Magic are good spells, and Raise Dead would be great if not for the Rod of Resurrection. But Iron Skins and Insect Plague are class-definers. The Avenger's Chaos might be the third-best spell at this level; its only weakness is that it's competing for slots with Insect Plague.
Level 6 Both get: Animal Summoning 3, Conjure Animals, Harm, Heal, Physical Mirror, Wondrous Recall Clerics get: Aerial Servant, Blade Barrier, Bolt of Glory, False Dawn, Sol's Searing Orb Druids get: Conjure Fire Elemental, Dolorous Decay, Fire Seeds Avengers get: Chain Lightning Commentary: Another KO for the Druid. Aerial Servant is a great summon, but Fire Elemental is one of the best in the game, and despite both classes getting Wondrous Recall, Druids do a *ton* more with it. (What's the best-case Cleric-only spell Wondrous Recall can call back, and how much worse is it than two extra Insect Plagues or Iron Skins?) Blade Barrier, Bolt of Glory, False Dawn, and Fire Seeds can be situationally useful, but they're kind of niche effects by this point.
Level 7 Both get: Confusion, Earthquake, Fire Storm, Regeneration, Shield of the Archons Clerics get: Finger of Death, Gate, Greater Restoration, (un)Holy Word, Resurrection, Sunray, Symbol: Stun, Symbol: Fear, Symbol: Death Druids get: Conjure Earth Elemental, Creeping Doom, Nature's Beauty Commentary: Another win for the Druid. Sunray is just stupid OP against undead, the symbol spells are potentially solid, Finger of Death and Gate are totally castable, but Creeping Doom is a lich-killer and Nature's Beauty is a party-friendly permablind that doesn't break invisibility; the (small) chance to instantly kill some dudes is just icing. If Insect Plague, Iron Skins, and Fire Elemental didn't exist, that'd be *the* reason to play the class still.
HLAs Both get: Aura of Flaming Death, Elemental Summoning, Energy Blades, Globe of Blades, Implosion, Mass Raise Dead, Storm of Vengeance, Summon (fallen) Deva Clerics get: nothing Druids get: Greater Elemental Summoning, Elemental Transformation (Fire), Elemental Transformation (Earth). Commentary: Obviously a win for the Druid, since Clerics get literally nothing here, though for the most part the transformations will only be used by F/Ds and the elemental princes are roughly on-par with Devas, power-wise.
Wow, awesome list @SomeSort ! I've never really looked into the major differences between cleric-only and druid-only spells.
Although some seem a little odd to me. I feel like the summon and conjure animal spells are much more druidy and clericy. But, my knowledge behind all this is much more limited than most of you guys.
From a powergaming perspective, I really have not managed to find a use for druids in any configuration I've tried (both with and without mods). They just don't offer enough compared to alternatives. Support/Utility cleric does better, while defense/offense is better handled by mages - talking dual/multiclass of course, as pure classes are a bit taint for PG.
A large part of this, I think, is because the trade-off druids face because of their shapeshifting; which, let's face it, is just not very good outside of BG1 (and maybe SoD, haven't played that yet). Their pseudo-proficiency with melee combat is almost entirely negated by simply dualing a fighter, and so you're left with a book full of admittedly interesting and flavorful but just not particularly powerful spells. There's maybe 3 spells or so that druids have and clerics don't that are noteworthy in any way. Iron Skins is great, no question. Insects are, too, unless you're playing with SCS and have elemental shields blocking all insects which makes the spell largely useless. And the high level summons are great, if summons are your thing (though they are by no means exceptional to the point of completely outclassing cleric/mage summons). That's about it. All the other spells are situational and/or mediocre performers. In my opinion, this has for a large part to do with the fact that they are more offensively oriented, and offense is just so much better left to fighting rather than casting. Where spells shine is their defensive/supportive/utility potential, and druid has a notable lack of party buffs - which are a big draw to cleric in PG since most of them effectively scale with your overall party quality.
Depending on your mod setup, there IS, however, one very powerful druid combination that should be noted: Wizard Slayer->Druid dual can use Fire Seeds to apply spell failure in a large radius, becoming a ridiculous mage-killing machine that walks all over casters even to the level of liches. Unfortunately that power is severely curbed by mods such as IR/SR.
For me, it usually comes down to this:
Fighters and Mages are awesome. You want as many as you can get.
Thieves and Divine casters are less awesome than Fighters and Mages, but they have specific abilities that are near-mandatory (disarming traps, healing, chaotic commands), so you have to bring at least one.
(Yes, obviously the easiest class to solo is a sorcerer so thief and cleric aren't really "mandatory", but having one of each is a major quality-of-life boost, IMO.)
So comparing Druids to Fighters or Mages is kind of pointless, IMO. Yes, those classes are better *once you've met your one divine caster quota*. It's really more a question of should your divine caster be a cleric or a druid?
For the longest time, I was on the Cleric train. They're a divine caster that is fighter-adjacent, (basically all the good bits except the multiple APR). It also doesn't hurt that clerics are well ahead in the power curve in BG1 (see: comparative spell lists), and in BG2 the cleric NPCs are all top-notch: Viconia and Anomen are super well-built from a powergaming perspective, and Aerie is at least an interesting multiclass combination. Meanwhile, Cernd joins Edwin as possessing by far the worst statistics in BG2 (Cernd only gets a bonus from Wisdom and Charisma, and the latter isn't even high enough to get a shop discount), but unlike Edwin, his character-specific items are... underwhelming. And oh yeah, Cernd is arguably the worst kit in the entire game, (and certainly the worst Druid kit).
I thought that Druids were also fighter-adjacent divine casters, heavily influenced by the fact that Fighter was the only class they could combine with, the fact that the only worthwhile Druid NPC was a F/D, the fact that unlike Clerics they could actually equip an APR-boosting weapon, and the fact that Shapechanging / Iron Skins just screams "melee participant". And yeah, F/Ds can be decent in that role, though the slog to hit level 14/15 can be pretty backbreaking for the multiclass, so I always just felt like they were slightly underwhelming Clerics or Cleric combos. Jahiera's a good NPC, but I don't know if she's better than Anomen or Viconia from a pure powergaming standpoint.
It wasn't until I did a playthrough as an Avenger that I really had a revelation: Druids aren't fighter-adjacent divine casters, they're *MAGE-ADJACENT* divine casters! I mean, sure, you can multiclass them and send them to the front lines and they'll be great until the Iron Skins gives out, though you won't be able to recast it until combat is over. But IMO the best way to play a Druid is single-classed, (or perhaps dualed over from Berserker, Fighter, or Wizard Slayer at a relatively low level), just so you can actually hit those level 14/15 marks faster and get the boatload of spell slots that is your birthright, (an edge that's only exacerbated by the insane bonus from 24 Wisdom; the best an NPC can get is 19 by Cernd).
You'll never get Time Stop or Improved Alacrity like a real mage, (or even Staff of the Archmagi and Robe of Vecna), but a Druid who hangs around the back and chucks Webs, Insect Plagues, and Fire Elementals until the spell book runs dry is super-powerful. (In this case, Iron Skin is less a combat buff and more a means of ensuring your spells don't get interrupted.) The higher-level Druid spells are *much*, much better than their Cleric counterparts. The Avenger kit, in particular, is a tremendous back-line spellcaster in a way that no Cleric can really match, outside of a very late-game Cleric/Mage, (and good luck with the slog to 6m experience to unlock that power).
Additionally, for a trilogy run the Totemic Druid is probably the best summoner in the game, passed only in ToB by a high-level mage with Mordenk's Swords and Planetars. And druids can equip Darts and Throwing Daggers, which lets them deal more damage between casts than a back-line Cleric could with a sling.
So from a powergaming perspective, what's the use of a Druid? Mostly it's just that I want Chaotic Commands / Death Ward and therefore need a divine caster, but would prefer one who is a better caster instead of one who is a better tank. If you haven't tried an Avenger run, I'd recommend giving it a go and seeing if it couldn't change your mind about the class like it changed mine. I didn't think something as little as getting Web at level 2 could make such a big difference, but... it really does. (It's just a shame Druids don't get Free Action, too.)
Don't forget Charm person or mammal at level 2. It's actually decent for that level to get bears or wolves in the wild.
Thanks for the catch, and added. It's actually decent all-around at low levels when enemy saves are terrible; charm is the best disabler because it can take multiple enemies out of a fight at once and deal damage to boot. And like most SoE spells that can be cast on NPCs with a blue circle, they don't actually go hostile unless they fail a save, so it remains useful for a good long while against optional fights like Mencar or Tarnor. It's still a major downgrade from Hold Person, but at least it's usable, unlike Goodberries.
Comments
Basically, it's a huge party-friendly area-of-effect silence that offers no save and can't be vocalized away, and just happens to deal a tiny amount of damage and occasionally causes enemies to panic to boot, because I guess it wasn't amazing enough to begin with. Everything Silence 10' Radius was in BG1, Insect Plague is in BG2, and more.
Similarly, both pure Cleric and pure Druid CHARNAME would be equally "bad" to me. At least make it a multiclass with a Fighter, then it's uptime(Cleric, can wear full plate) vs. spike(Druid, can cast iron skins)
On a side note, did anyone here ever actually cast the "turn me into a fighter" Cleric spells? The fact that they SET your Strength to lower than what you will almost certainly have as a CHARNAME Cleric always made me think of them as completely useless. I guess you could cast one as Viconia to do extra few points damage with her sling, if you're REALLY bored?
I typically don't use most of the Cleric buffs simply because for my playstyle I'm not a fan of prebuffing. But Holy Power (sets your strength to 18/00 gives you Fighter THACO, boosts your HP by one per level) can be a useful THACO boost, and Righteous Magic / Draw Upon Holy Might will boost your strength from there anyway. For a high-level cleric, that three-spell combo will give +6 THACO (plus whatever you get from your strength bonus), +40 HP, +6 dex, 25 strength, and max damage per attack.
It's a pretty slick trio except for the fact that it still leaves the Cleric stuck at 1 attack per round and therefore useless at melee. (But if you're a Priest of Lathander, you can drop a Boon for a further +1 THACO, +1 damage, and 1 extra APR, plus Boon stacks with itself so you can even drop four of them at once to get all the way to 5 APR.)
Just play style difference. If i were to recommend someone to play better, your way would be what I would recommend.
Btw, another weird choice of me. I like dualing out of lathander into a ranger rather than those fighter duals.
Why, you ask;
Most clerics get eaten alive by Bort, since he is immune to hold. However, a priest of helm will defeat Bort in melee... HOWEVER, his pals will swamp the cleric. So, to win, you must cast hold on the other guys, most specifically Reginald, and hope that Bort does not reach you by then so he will have a whole round to bash you, and possibly interrupt your sword.
Shapeshifter:
Cast entangle (not on them, but on the ground where you expect they will be), and if he is free, use charm person or mammal on Reginald. If you get Reginald and Bort to fight, great! That could be a win right there... Depending on who gets out of the tangle first, either charm someone, or turn into werewolf and rip them apart. Remember that you have two werewolf charges, so you can turn back into a human, cast spells, and turn back to wolf again, if need be.
For neither cleric nor druid is this an easy fight, but I do believe it is easier for druid. I have not done extensive testing, mind you, so if you believe I am biased towards druid, go ahead and try it yourself.
So, whats the snag with clerics? Well, the sword of helm disables spells, but unlike shapeshift, you cannot cancel it at will. It also does not increase your movement rate, like werewolf does, which is excellent for a tactical regroup. Finally, you only get 1 helm sword (ok, 2 at lvl 10), compared to lots and lots of werewolf charges. The shapeshifter seamlessly shifts between spellcaster and fighter (well, somewhat at least. Unfortunately, you cannot cast spells the round you turn into wolf or back, which is annoying.) And also, you do not heal HP when turning into werewolf, like you should. Repeatedly turning into werewolf when already a werewolf to regain HP should work
Also, I created a dwarf like suggested. Dwarves cannot have more than 17 dex, and with a platemail and a large shield, the total AC becomes -1, and NOT -4, as suggested. A shapeshifted druid, with one PIP in single weapon, gets -2. Unfortunately, barkskin does not stack with the natural AC of werewolves. Which is odd, I think. I mean, it makes sense that it does not stack with armor... but werewolves do not wear armor! They are just very very agile and buff. It should work like swashbuckler and dragon disciple AC bonuses. Another thing to patch...
Edit: And also, command is overrated. I mean it is good, but it's not that good.
(Werewolf +1 APR and (19 str of course) stacks nicely with fighter APR, and if you have a teammate dispelling your claws, even better.)
(You could also do an avenger, since books will raise your str to 17, enough to dual)
(From fighter is quite obvious, at lvl 13, or mb 18 if you want 2 PIPS in single weapon for AC bonuses as well I suppose)
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Druid
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter
I would say 15, to get those extra five level 7 spells as well as poison immunity (not sure how good that is, you can just use an elixirs of health, but every little but I suppose), however, the jump from 1,5 mil to 3,0 mil from 14 to 15 is REALLY uncalled for (as if druids are not crippled enough as it is, for the reasons I mentioned in the first post)! I think that it is THE most XP expensive lvl 15 class - not even paladins cost that much!
(So even more patching is necessary for balance...)
I think you get between 6 and 7 million XP by the time you end the game if I remember correctly, so I guess you could wait til lvl 15, but...
So, I'm far from an expert on either class.
That being said, I thought this thread is really interesting thus far. It's cool to see everyone's brains sift through all those numbers and write it into a post.
IIRC, 18 Str would be a +2 Str in IR.
That would be a fantastical nerf to Viconia and Aerie, or a good buff to Anomen or any PC Cleric.
I personally do not use the spells, partly because I do not play Cleric NPCs and also a lack of realizing the utility of +Str spells. I have still thought about going through and editing +Str spells to not be flat because it just seems wierd that a 80 lb weakling like Aerie can suddenly become as strong as Sarevok. Or that my demigod PC actually loses Str (19 post BG1 to 18).
Also just noticed that Righteous Magic causes all hits to do max damage for 1 ROUND PER LEVEL. Eat your heart out Kensais and Blades, your 10-18 seconds can suck it.
In my last BG1 + SoD playthrough, my cleric of Helm surpassed Ajantis and Minsc in kill count. And I don't even systematically prebuff. I either do it while the first tank is drawing flak (and retreat and switch with the buffed cleric) or when the game gives me a clear indication that a big fight is about to happen.
Depends a bit on what you want to do with the druid part.
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Nature's_Beauty
It isnt the best spell in world, especially not with that +3 bonus to the opponents saving throw, but it is amusing - you kill people from longing with your dazzling beuty. This is more fun than a wild surge and a jester combined!
A large part of this, I think, is because the trade-off druids face because of their shapeshifting; which, let's face it, is just not very good outside of BG1 (and maybe SoD, haven't played that yet). Their pseudo-proficiency with melee combat is almost entirely negated by simply dualing a fighter, and so you're left with a book full of admittedly interesting and flavorful but just not particularly powerful spells.
There's maybe 3 spells or so that druids have and clerics don't that are noteworthy in any way. Iron Skins is great, no question. Insects are, too, unless you're playing with SCS and have elemental shields blocking all insects which makes the spell largely useless. And the high level summons are great, if summons are your thing (though they are by no means exceptional to the point of completely outclassing cleric/mage summons).
That's about it. All the other spells are situational and/or mediocre performers. In my opinion, this has for a large part to do with the fact that they are more offensively oriented, and offense is just so much better left to fighting rather than casting. Where spells shine is their defensive/supportive/utility potential, and druid has a notable lack of party buffs - which are a big draw to cleric in PG since most of them effectively scale with your overall party quality.
Depending on your mod setup, there IS, however, one very powerful druid combination that should be noted: Wizard Slayer->Druid dual can use Fire Seeds to apply spell failure in a large radius, becoming a ridiculous mage-killing machine that walks all over casters even to the level of liches. Unfortunately that power is severely curbed by mods such as IR/SR.
You can get three Wisdom points in BG alone from Tomes, and another three in SoA/ToB: solving the Test of Wrath the "good" way, Machine of Lum the Mad, and Deck of Many Things if your primary class is a divine caster.
Therefore if you start with 18 Wisdom as you should, you will have 24 Wisdom by the time the game is over. This nets you three extra level 1 spells, three extra level 2 spells, two extra level 3 spells, four extra level 4 spells, four extra level 5 spells and two extra level 6 spells. That is a damn lot of extra spells. So anyone comparing Clerics/Druids vs. Mages should keep that in mind.
Furthermore, while I said that Clerics have "Uptime"(Because their full plate is always "on") and Druids have "Spike"(Because Iron Skins are great but temporary) even that is not necessarily the case, because Druids can completley sidestep their class armor restrictions by wearing Ankheg Plate(BG) and Dragon Scales(SoA) which are very good armors - maybe not as good as full plate, but they're pretty close. And certainly much closer than Fighter/Mage with Robe of Vecna, who basically becomes useless the moment their Stoneskins run out and has to rest or limit themselves to pelting the enemies from second/third line.
I find it hard to compare Clerics and Druids when it comes to spells as their separate spell lists are impossible to find. But from what I know, when it comes to self-buffing, Druids are much better than Clerics because, again, Iron Skin. Clerics have an array of self-buff spells like Righteous Magic or whatnot, which unfortunately become useless halfway through Baldur's Gate when you get 19 Strength, at which point these spells actually end up hurting you more than helping you.
Well, that is assuming you are running a Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Druid multiclass, or dual a fighter-type into a Cleric or Druid. I really see no point in running a pure Cleric or Druid around as the main character.
This is the problem with threads like these, there's just so many variables that it's hard to just compare one class against the other. For example, Dwarves and Half-Orcs cannot be Druids or Fighter/Druids - shouldn't that also be taken into account when comparing Clerics vs. Druids? Missing out on Dwarven saving throws or Half-Orc bonus STR is a large factor when picking a class. Or what about Druid/Cleric exclusive magical items? Druids cannot wield Crom Faeyr or Flail of Ages... and so on.
It sounds like you're not casting the spells in the best order. Holy power sets strength to 18(00), but only at the point of casting. If you follow that by righteous magic and then DUHM you can not only have fighter THAC0, extra HPs and maximum damage per hit, but all the benefits of 25 strength (max 22 in BG1).
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A druid can pass fire seeds to other party members - so a wizard slayer in a party can use this tactic without needing to dual.
Yes, but then you have two slots to classes that are meh on their own. Rather combine them in one and make them actually decent.
Also, since Crom Faeyr was mentioned multiple times: it's far from redundant with a Cleric around, simply because you can just... not give it to the Cleric. And then you have 2 characters with 25 STR rather than 1.
Now, all of this is compensated, of course, by nymphs, whose healing spell is so good, you actually do bother to use it even during a fight, not just in between - note that the nymph actually use YOUR caster level for mass cure (at least I think they do, from my own observations), so a ten level druid with 18 wis gets a total healing power of ((4 x 11-18 HP) x # wounded party members). Also, please to be noted that mass cure is actually a fifth level spell, so you get a fifth level spell at level four, + some hold persons and charms and the like + some minor damage soaking. Unfortunately, nymphs in BGEE are unruly as hell. No matter what you tell them to do, they will do whatever they feel like, which, for reasons I cannot comprehend, is to engage succesfully held creatures in a kissing session. I seem to remember that before EE, nymphs were much easier to control (or maybe it is just a black pits thing, just like charm and dominate etc sometimes glitches and you immediately lose control even though they did not succeed their saving throw). In either case, the nymph AI needs to be patched to hell and back again, because their current unrulyness is a major cause of aggravation, the kind that would have made me throw my NES-controller in the floor, if I were younger and BGee was for the NES.
Level 1
Both get: Armor of Faith, Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Evil, Doom, Shillelagh
Clerics get: Sanctuary, Remove Fear, Command, Magical Stone, Protection from Evil
Druids get: Entangle
Avengers get: Chromatic Orb
Commentary: The Cleric selection dominates at lower levels, but eventually mostly all you're really going to be memorizing is Armor of Faith, Cure Light Wounds, and Doom, anyway, with maybe one Remove Fear just in case. (Sanctuary is baller for a Cleric/Thief, but otherwise I usually just use Invisibility from my mages.) The Avenger's Chromatic Orb actually is pretty great throughout the saga for troll killing, if nothing else.
Level 2
Both get: Barkskin, Find Traps, Flame Blade, Know Alignment, Resist Fire/Cold, Slow Poison
Clerics get: Aid, Chant, DUHM, Hold Person, Silence 15' Radius, Spiritual Hammer
Druids get: Charm Person or Mammal, Goodberry (lol)
Avengers get: Web (omg)
Commentary: Oh my god Druid Level 2 Spells suck so damn hard, outside of early-game use of CPoM when enemy saves are terrible or cheesy abuse against enemies that don't start off hostile. A strong case could be made that the three best level 2 spells are all cleric-only (Silence, Hold, DUHM). Of course, a strong case could be made that Web is better than all of them; I'd say level 2 Web is probably the single greatest selling point of the Avenger kit.
Level 3
Both get: Cure Disease, Cure Medium Wounds, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Miscast Magic, Protection from Fire, Rigid Thinking, Strength of One
Clerics get: Animate Dead, Glyph of Warding, (un)Holy Smite, Remove Curse, Remove Paralysis, Zone of Sweet Air
Druids get: Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Summon Insects
Avengers get: Lightning Bolt
Commentary: A mixed bag. Despite what you might read, Animate Dead is amazing from jump street, but by the time it really starts getting ridiculous the Druid will be getting some top-notch summons of his own. Zone of Sweet Air is a nice convenience spell, but Holy Smite and Remove Paralysis are the real gems here. Call Lightning is ridiculously good in outdoor areas, enough to almost make this level a wash IMO, but useless indoors, giving Clerics another massive edge. I do like Summon Insects as a replacement for Miscast Magic, too, using the much weaker-for-mages Save vs. Breath (and offering a bigger penalty, to boot). But Clerics already have Silence, which is probably better than either. The Avenger's Lightning Bolt is potentially powerful, but I hate trying to use that spell.
Level 4
Both get: Animal Summoning 1, Cause Serious Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cloak of Fear, Death Ward, Defensive Harmony, Farsight, Negative Plane Protection, Neutralize Poison, Poison, Protection from Lightning
Clerics get: Free Action, Holy Power, Lesser Restoration, Mental Domination, Protection from Evil 10' Radius
Druids get: Call Woodland Beings
Avengers get: Improved Invisibility
Commentary: Another mixed bag. Holy Power, Free Action, and Domination are all totally usable, but PfE 10' is the real gem here. (Lesser Restoration is also great, but Restoration scrolls are cheap, plentiful, and usable for Druids, so that's no huge loss.) Meanwhile, Druids only get one spell, but what a spell it is. Call Woodland Beings is basically a free Mass Heal (level 5 spell) that comes equipped with a lot of extra free castings of some of the better Save or Else spells. I tend to consider this one a slight edge for the druid, and a solid edge for the Avenger.
Level 5
Both get: Animal Summoning 2, Cause Critical Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds, Chaotic Commands, Magic Resistance, Mass Cure, True Seeing
Clerics get: Champion's Strength, Flame Strike, Greater Command, Raise Dead, Repulse Undead, Righteous Magic, Slay Living
Druids get: Insect Plague, Iron Skins, Pixie Dust
Avengers get: Chaos
Commentary: Druids win in a knockout. Flame Strike, Greater Command, and Righteous Magic are good spells, and Raise Dead would be great if not for the Rod of Resurrection. But Iron Skins and Insect Plague are class-definers. The Avenger's Chaos might be the third-best spell at this level; its only weakness is that it's competing for slots with Insect Plague.
Level 6
Both get: Animal Summoning 3, Conjure Animals, Harm, Heal, Physical Mirror, Wondrous Recall
Clerics get: Aerial Servant, Blade Barrier, Bolt of Glory, False Dawn, Sol's Searing Orb
Druids get: Conjure Fire Elemental, Dolorous Decay, Fire Seeds
Avengers get: Chain Lightning
Commentary: Another KO for the Druid. Aerial Servant is a great summon, but Fire Elemental is one of the best in the game, and despite both classes getting Wondrous Recall, Druids do a *ton* more with it. (What's the best-case Cleric-only spell Wondrous Recall can call back, and how much worse is it than two extra Insect Plagues or Iron Skins?) Blade Barrier, Bolt of Glory, False Dawn, and Fire Seeds can be situationally useful, but they're kind of niche effects by this point.
Level 7
Both get: Confusion, Earthquake, Fire Storm, Regeneration, Shield of the Archons
Clerics get: Finger of Death, Gate, Greater Restoration, (un)Holy Word, Resurrection, Sunray, Symbol: Stun, Symbol: Fear, Symbol: Death
Druids get: Conjure Earth Elemental, Creeping Doom, Nature's Beauty
Commentary: Another win for the Druid. Sunray is just stupid OP against undead, the symbol spells are potentially solid, Finger of Death and Gate are totally castable, but Creeping Doom is a lich-killer and Nature's Beauty is a party-friendly permablind that doesn't break invisibility; the (small) chance to instantly kill some dudes is just icing. If Insect Plague, Iron Skins, and Fire Elemental didn't exist, that'd be *the* reason to play the class still.
HLAs
Both get: Aura of Flaming Death, Elemental Summoning, Energy Blades, Globe of Blades, Implosion, Mass Raise Dead, Storm of Vengeance, Summon (fallen) Deva
Clerics get: nothing
Druids get: Greater Elemental Summoning, Elemental Transformation (Fire), Elemental Transformation (Earth).
Commentary: Obviously a win for the Druid, since Clerics get literally nothing here, though for the most part the transformations will only be used by F/Ds and the elemental princes are roughly on-par with Devas, power-wise.
Although some seem a little odd to me. I feel like the summon and conjure animal spells are much more druidy and clericy. But, my knowledge behind all this is much more limited than most of you guys.
- Fighters and Mages are awesome. You want as many as you can get.
- Thieves and Divine casters are less awesome than Fighters and Mages, but they have specific abilities that are near-mandatory (disarming traps, healing, chaotic commands), so you have to bring at least one.
(Yes, obviously the easiest class to solo is a sorcerer so thief and cleric aren't really "mandatory", but having one of each is a major quality-of-life boost, IMO.)So comparing Druids to Fighters or Mages is kind of pointless, IMO. Yes, those classes are better *once you've met your one divine caster quota*. It's really more a question of should your divine caster be a cleric or a druid?
For the longest time, I was on the Cleric train. They're a divine caster that is fighter-adjacent, (basically all the good bits except the multiple APR). It also doesn't hurt that clerics are well ahead in the power curve in BG1 (see: comparative spell lists), and in BG2 the cleric NPCs are all top-notch: Viconia and Anomen are super well-built from a powergaming perspective, and Aerie is at least an interesting multiclass combination. Meanwhile, Cernd joins Edwin as possessing by far the worst statistics in BG2 (Cernd only gets a bonus from Wisdom and Charisma, and the latter isn't even high enough to get a shop discount), but unlike Edwin, his character-specific items are... underwhelming. And oh yeah, Cernd is arguably the worst kit in the entire game, (and certainly the worst Druid kit).
I thought that Druids were also fighter-adjacent divine casters, heavily influenced by the fact that Fighter was the only class they could combine with, the fact that the only worthwhile Druid NPC was a F/D, the fact that unlike Clerics they could actually equip an APR-boosting weapon, and the fact that Shapechanging / Iron Skins just screams "melee participant". And yeah, F/Ds can be decent in that role, though the slog to hit level 14/15 can be pretty backbreaking for the multiclass, so I always just felt like they were slightly underwhelming Clerics or Cleric combos. Jahiera's a good NPC, but I don't know if she's better than Anomen or Viconia from a pure powergaming standpoint.
It wasn't until I did a playthrough as an Avenger that I really had a revelation: Druids aren't fighter-adjacent divine casters, they're *MAGE-ADJACENT* divine casters! I mean, sure, you can multiclass them and send them to the front lines and they'll be great until the Iron Skins gives out, though you won't be able to recast it until combat is over. But IMO the best way to play a Druid is single-classed, (or perhaps dualed over from Berserker, Fighter, or Wizard Slayer at a relatively low level), just so you can actually hit those level 14/15 marks faster and get the boatload of spell slots that is your birthright, (an edge that's only exacerbated by the insane bonus from 24 Wisdom; the best an NPC can get is 19 by Cernd).
You'll never get Time Stop or Improved Alacrity like a real mage, (or even Staff of the Archmagi and Robe of Vecna), but a Druid who hangs around the back and chucks Webs, Insect Plagues, and Fire Elementals until the spell book runs dry is super-powerful. (In this case, Iron Skin is less a combat buff and more a means of ensuring your spells don't get interrupted.) The higher-level Druid spells are *much*, much better than their Cleric counterparts. The Avenger kit, in particular, is a tremendous back-line spellcaster in a way that no Cleric can really match, outside of a very late-game Cleric/Mage, (and good luck with the slog to 6m experience to unlock that power).
Additionally, for a trilogy run the Totemic Druid is probably the best summoner in the game, passed only in ToB by a high-level mage with Mordenk's Swords and Planetars. And druids can equip Darts and Throwing Daggers, which lets them deal more damage between casts than a back-line Cleric could with a sling.
So from a powergaming perspective, what's the use of a Druid? Mostly it's just that I want Chaotic Commands / Death Ward and therefore need a divine caster, but would prefer one who is a better caster instead of one who is a better tank. If you haven't tried an Avenger run, I'd recommend giving it a go and seeing if it couldn't change your mind about the class like it changed mine. I didn't think something as little as getting Web at level 2 could make such a big difference, but... it really does. (It's just a shame Druids don't get Free Action, too.)