Clerics are only saved by draw upon holy might
DrakeICN
Member Posts: 623
Ok, so druids are disadvantaged against clerics for several bullshit reasons;
* Can only multi with fighter
* Non-kitted shapechanging is shit
* Its difficult to find scimitars, but one of the best items in the game is a war hammer
* Even though ninja-to's is listed as a scimitar, druid cant use them (which would give 9 / 13 lvl fighter dual -> druids with three points in two weapons and five points in scimitar both piercing and slashing damage)
On the other hand, they do have one advantages over clerics
* Can use darts, which gives them stun and poison and so on abilities
But lets ignore that and only look at spells;
Druid > Cleric
Call lightning > Flamestrike
Summon insects > Hold person
Call woodland being > Animate dead
Iron skins > Blade Barrier
If it wasnt for the second level cleric spell draw upon holy might, druids are vastly superior to clerics.
Therefore, early level (c:a 1-10) shapechangers eats ANY kind of cleric for breakfast and extremely early level shapechangers (c:a 1-5) also eats ANY kind of fighter for breakfast
Deal with it.
* Can only multi with fighter
* Non-kitted shapechanging is shit
* Its difficult to find scimitars, but one of the best items in the game is a war hammer
* Even though ninja-to's is listed as a scimitar, druid cant use them (which would give 9 / 13 lvl fighter dual -> druids with three points in two weapons and five points in scimitar both piercing and slashing damage)
On the other hand, they do have one advantages over clerics
* Can use darts, which gives them stun and poison and so on abilities
But lets ignore that and only look at spells;
Druid > Cleric
Call lightning > Flamestrike
Summon insects > Hold person
Call woodland being > Animate dead
Iron skins > Blade Barrier
If it wasnt for the second level cleric spell draw upon holy might, druids are vastly superior to clerics.
Therefore, early level (c:a 1-10) shapechangers eats ANY kind of cleric for breakfast and extremely early level shapechangers (c:a 1-5) also eats ANY kind of fighter for breakfast
Deal with it.
0
Comments
Anyway, the spell comparisons seems very arbitary. Why compare Call Lightning with Flamestrike instead of Holy Smite, which is a great party friendly AoE damage spell on the same level? Or why compare Summon Insects specifically with Hold Person?
I highly doubt a level 4 Shapeshifter could beat a level 4 Cleric, considering the Cleric not only has Hold Person but Command available.
Protection from Evil 10' Radius.
Chant.
Holy Power.
Holy Smite.
Command/Greater Command.
Resurrection.
True Sight.
You want to bring up kits? Might as well throw Boon of Lathander/Storm Shield in there.
These are all very useful spells that the cleric has over the Druid.
I'm sorry, but this is either a spite post or you simply don't understand the different strengths and weaknesses of the two divine classes.
Level 1 differences: Heavy armor, a shield, Command, vs Entangle and Darts. Hard to say who'd win this fight. NOTE: Clerics also get Sanctuary and Remove Fear, one of three classes that can consistently remove magical fear (Bard and Cavalier are the other two.) In terms of utility, Clerics are winning here.
Level 2 differences: Yay. Another level 1 spell. Moving on...
Level 3 differences: Hold Person, Silence 15", Aid, DuHM, Spiritual Hammer, vs Goodberry and Charm Person or Mammal. Important ones are Hold Person and Silence, and Charm Person, which technically ends the game if solo. Cleric is outright winning for now.
Level 4: Ditto.
Level 4 Cleric vs level 5 druid: The experience table really starts kicking in here: Druid will be at level 5 for 6k experience before the Cleric. So important spells: Call Lightning, Miscast Magic, and Call Insects. If indoors, that becomes Miscast Magic and Call Insects. Fight starts turning into who fails a save first between Silence at a -5 penalty or Hold and Miscast Magic or Call Insects, and with Shorty bonuses, the Cleric is more likely to come out on top. So Druid wins outside, Cleric wins inside. Cleric wins both if Silence connects.
Level 5 Cleric vs level 5/6 Druid: And Cleric gets their level 3 spells, most notably Remove Paralysis (which is 100% utterly unique in its utility), Holy Smite, and Animate Dead. For the 1-1 combat, only Animate Dead is relevant, since it's the first summons of the game.
Level 6 Cleric vs level 7 Druid: OK, here Druid starts making up ground, since Call Nymph in BG1 is incredibly broken in a good way, and Cleric spells become more utility focused rather than combat focused. Clerics can STILL win, though, if the Nymph fails a save vs spell at -5 for the silence, which isn't even that unlikely. Druids also have Free Action to block the Hold Persons now.
Level 7 Cleric vs level 8 Druid: Protection from Lightning cancels the Call Lightning damage advantage from earlier, and Free Action cancels the Nymph Hold Monster spam. Protection from Evil 10" is a long-term buff that I think forces a Druid to roll a critical to hit with a dart.
Level 7 Cleric vs level 9 Druid: level 5 spells kick in, giving Druids Insect Plague, Iron Skins, and Pixie Dust. Pixie Dust is an amazing out-of-combat spell for traveling, so I'll give that much, but in a straight fight? Now it's a Silence vs Insect Plague fight, a save vs spell at -5 or a save vs death at -4. Death is the strong Priest save, and shorty bonuses are giving another huge boost to the cleric. Clerics are STILL WINNING on average here, since without any saving throw boosting items, the Druid has to roll a 17 or better, while the Cleric has to roll a 6! That's a 20% vs a 70% chance to make the save.
Level 8 Cleric vs level 10 Druid: Saving throws are lowered by 1 for Druid, and THAC0 drops to 14 from 16. 25% chance vs 70% chance now.
tldr; Druids have some advantages, most of them due to the better experience tables and Call Nymph. Clerics can still negate almost all of these advantages from level 3, since Silence vs Druids is absolutely ridiculous at low levels, and the lack of Vocalize. Shorty bonuses can help the Cleric straight-up win.
Edit: Note that while Shapeshifters and Druids might suffer vs Clerics, Totemic Druids and Avengers have slightly better times: Spirit Wolf and Lion and Bear fare decently vs Clerics, and Avengers get Web, Improved Invisibility, and Chaos, as well as the actually decent Sword Spider form.
Iron skins, on the other hand, is a spell that lasts for 12 h, and something a druid would cast well before he even knows he will meet a cleric today.
Also lol wut at lvl 1 a cleric wins? A shapechanger easily rips that cleric apart. Also, if a micast magic or silence is succesful, the druid will simply turn into a werewolf (shapechange is an ability, not a spell), but if summon insect is succesfull (and please note that you get -4 to saving throws for summon insect, compared to -2 for miscast magic) the cleric can... uh... flinch in a threatening manner.
Also, call nymph is not broken. The advantages of nymphs are offset by low HP and AC, so this spell is well balanced.
More;
Protection from Evil 10' Radius = Shit.
Chant = halves your movement speed
Holy Power = lol are you kidding me? Why would you ever use that when you can instead use draw upon holy might? You know, the spell I pointed out wins it for the cleric?
Holy Smite = shit
Command/Greater Command = ok these are decent spells
Resurrection = Druids are supposed to get resurrection but didnt for some reason, so it is actually a bug and not a feature, that nobody bothered to patch.
True Sight = Yeah, this is a good one. Gotta admit that. Druids still wins it though.
Protection from Evil is a great spell. Chant does NOT halve your movement speed. Holy Smite is great, fast-casting party-friendly AoE - have you fought against multiple SCS drow clerics who cast Unholy Blight at you yet?
And finally, Raise Dead & Resurrection are both Necromantic Sphere, so no access for Druids.
And you use Holy Power on top of DuHM, to gain additional hitpoints and better THAC0 than a Werewolf form shapeshifter ever could. By level 7, when you first get Holy Power, the combo gets your STR to 20, Dex to 19, compared to the 19/16 the Shapeshifter's locked into. And if we're using a Priest of Lathander, the priest can still cast spells. Every single stat's been matched or bettered: 2 APR, higher Strength, higher DEX, actually having armor, ability to cast spells, a +1 bonus to both attack and damage from the Boon.
As for your... spell analysis... What the heck. I'll continue. Protect from Evil grants a hidden +2 bonus to AC, making the comparison -6 to your -2, or -7 to your -3 with a standard Ring of Protection, and lasts for a turn per level, or 50 rounds at the very earliest you can cast this spell. I'm pretty darn sure a Shapeshifter needs a Critical to hit at this point. (checking: Druid has 18 THAC0 at level 5. +3 for 19 strength. To hit -6 AC, you need a roll of a 21. So yeah. Clerics under the Boon hitting your -3 AC only need to roll a 16. Without it, they need to roll a 17 with 1 APR. They're still hitting twice as often as you.) There's a reason I was comparing spells, not combat.
Chant: I don't know what you're thinking, honestly, but halving movement speed is NOT something this spell does. It's pretty impractical to cast in the middle of a fight due to it's insanely long cast time, so I won't factor it in here. But in a party, another +1 THAC0 and damage is rather useful.
Holy Power: Already addressed. You can layer it on top of another combat spell to enhance it further.
Holy Smite: Useless in the Druid fight, granted, since Druids are True Neutral, but a large area-of-effect spell that deals significant damage and blinds on a failed save is not a bad spell by any means. For the 1v1, the Cleric can stock up on Skeletons and Miscast Magics because why not?
Clerics also get Raise Dead, a level 5 spell that helps money matters in SoA pretty significantly.
... Both Clerics and Druids get True Sight as a level 5 spell, so it's not even a point in anyone's favor.
Edit, cuz why not: Look at the saving throw tables. At level 4/5, where Druids first even get Call Insects, Clerics have a Death Saving Throw of 9. The theoretical Dwarf Cleric of Lathander (y'know, I'll even build one right now for the heck of it. Stats are 18/17/18/11/18/2, for 84 stat points; anything excess can go back into Charisma.) will have a saving throw of 4. He still has a better than average chance of making the -4 vs death than any type of Druid has of making a -2 vs Spell... roll of an 8 vs roll of 16, or a 65% vs a 35% chance. Probabilities state that the Druid will be denied casting and the Cleric will not be.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44790/protection-from-evil
The more you know.
And yeah, I'm not denying that Druids can have some pretty crazy strengths... Pixie Dust and Conjure Fire Elemental and Call Woodland Beings get me through early SoA where I still struggle greatly otherwise, Ironskins is invaluable to a CHARNAME when backstabs become an issue (Rune assassins, anyone?), Insect Plague is spectacular at disabling large groups of mages, immunity to poison, a ridiculously good HLA and summons list... I'm just going to mightily object if anyone says that Clerics are straight-up outclassed by Druids besides one highly situational spell.
Cleric's strengths that aren't matched by Druid: the stronger early game due to Hold Person and Silence, the ability to remove fear rather than just prevent it, Sanctuary raiding, Raise Dead, Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, Remove Curse (situational, but useful in SCS at times), Holy Smite, Animate Dead, the ability to literally destroy Lichs and vampires in one turn without using any resources... They both have their places, even if I consider Clerics more necessary in no-reloads than Druids simply due to Remove Paralysis.
But the topic oozes with (holy) smite.
in my opinion, I think clerics and druids are just perfect the way they are, not one of them is better than the other, and I don't play with any mods because sometimes mods will change the balance of things
for my personal preference the fighter/druid is my favourite of all the druid types, and a level 13 fighter/ cleric is my favourite out of all the cleric types, but even then, I don't find one to be way better than the other ( although the level 13 fighter/cleric is probably the best for melee when using draw upon holy might and righteous magic) but even with that said, they are still 2 great classes
but I've been playing this game for 18 years, so I've found the strengths of both classes that make them equally as great
Sorry, I couldn't help it. In BG1 there are several ghouls, ghasts and spellcasters who cast hold person, so I guess the spell helps a lot.
As an aside, that's one of the reasons I like having Aerie in no-reloads: she can not only cast RP, she can put it inside a sequencer to negate the long-ish casting time that can mean life or death.
Something that did bother me though, is that shapeshifting is supposed to heal you a bit each time you shift into an animal / monster / whatever, but that seems to be broken in the black pits. If it did heal you as it should, druids would be even better, especially shapeshifters.
(Call lightning obviously isnt terribly useful in the black pits, but I have used druids also in other settings, and, well, call lightning rocks.)
Also, I can tell you that charm person or mammal and entangle are way more useful than you would think just from reading their descriptions.
P.S. Unless you are a shadowdancer, you cant hide either as a thief, monk or ranger if you solo, because talking to Baeloth to initiate the fight brakes hiding. So backstab wont show. But maybe you could bring along a wizard that you never level and allow to be slaughtered immediately at the start of each fight...
If max health at level 2: 4d4 + 12 is minimum 16, average 22, higher than your maximum 20 HP and average of 16.5 HP. You simply don't get to attack, ever.
And even without spells, the armor advantage is simply too huge to ignore:
Werewolf shapeshift has innate 1 AC, and 16 DEX for a bonus -3 to AC, ending at -2. Possibly ends at -3 if Buckler AC still counts? I dunno.
Dwarf Cleric, Full Plate of 1 AC (-2 vs Piercing!), 17 DEX for a -3 to AC, any type of Shield +1 to get to -4, or -7 vs Piercing attacks which is what Werewolf attacks count as. Without an enchantment on the shield, -6. As per my calculations above, a Shapeshifter at level 5 has effective THAC0 of 15. You aren't hitting without a Critical Hit. You're have, on average, an 1 - (0.95^2) = 9.75% chance to hit per round. At level 6, that chance increases to 19% IF they don't have an enchanted shield or ring, still 9.75% otherwise. At level 9, you do finally start to hit on something other than 20, with an effective THAC0 of 11... Which is when DuHM is granting 20/19 to your 19/16, so actually the AC is actually -8 again...
Basically, show some numbers that counter this, or I think I'm calling this argument finished easily in my favor.
Edit: Ah, you're basing this around how certain characters do in the Black Pits which is... Dubious, and slightly anecdotal. Yeah, you'll probably be doing more damage than a Cleric, but I'm pretty sure that a Cleric's going to be steadier and more consistent in the long run.
if of coarse that matters at all
1: Sanctuary, Command, Remove Fear
2: DUHM, Silence, Hold
3: Animate Dead, Holy Smite, Remove Paralysis, Zone of Can I Please Quicksave Already?
4: PfE10'
5: Nothing
6: Nothing
7: Nothing
Druid spells I miss when playing a Cleric:
1: Nothing
2: Nothing
3: Nothing
4: Call Woodland Beings
5: Insect Plague, Iron Skins, Pixie Dust
6: Fire Elemental
7: Nature's Beauty