There is no point to being a full time warrior or a full time caster, because then you should be either a real warrior class or one of the other druid kits.
Or be an F/D hybrid that can do both at the same time instead of shifting from one to the other, and actually scales with weapons.
Well yeah, but multiclass is better than everything else anyway, kits don't really matter then.
Are we talking vanilla BG2 here? I am guessing not...
Keeping a first line of 3 chars, +-1 for backing in and out, and potions of extra healing is a tactic valid for most any encounter in vanilla. Mods shouldnt count when you do these calculations, because that is like moving a target a further 100 m back, and claiming a longbow is useless since it cant hit the mark now.
Edit: In fact, fairly sure about the mods part. -10 AC is supposed to be the cap in SoA...
There is something silly, I think, about modding your gear and class kits to exceed the limits set by the developers, then complain about how easy the game is, then install a mod that makes the enemies harder to kill... and THEN complain about the classes that were shortchanged due to the class-specific mods and gears.
Err, I'm pretty sure -24's the normal limit without mods. Googled it, it's either 24 or 26; I see conflicting opinions from whether it's a hard -20 cap excluding DEX modifier, or straightup -24's the limit. Taking a look at a list of monsters and their THAC0 here, ( https://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/faqs/27144 ), it's... actually not nearly as bad as I remember. Most THAC0s around the Underdark are around the 14-15 level, outside of nightmares like the Balor. With their weapons, that's dropping to 11-12 or so. Maybe a shapeshifter would still be decent here, but his kit's usefulness is about to hit its end here.
@SomeSort Shapeshifter is in a weird place for a single class. I'd say its closest analogue is a dual class Fighter>Druid as its role changes depending on the stage of the game. In BG1, the werewolf form is sufficient to carry you as a fighter type without much fuss, and remains very useful to early SoA.
Once you hit greater werewolf form, you can almost coast on it until Underdark. Greater werewolf is still useful here but you will definitely want to start fights as a spellcaster then transition to a backup fighter.
When you reach ToB, you shift to full time caster. Your spells and casting ability are still equal to vanilla druid and the other kits at this stage. Its a weird hybrid that morphs the characters role throughout the trilogy and ends up alongside the other druid kits and casters anyway. Its kind of a reverse of the standard caster levelling. You have an easy early game that becomes an average lategame.
Yeah, that's mostly how I play Cernd. A bit of situational shifting in chapters 2 and 3 before he transitions into a full-time caster. But like I said, I think the other two Druid kits have it as easy or even easier in the early game, thanks to Web and the Spirit Animals. So you're taking a gimped end-game (no armor) for little to no advantage in the early and mid game.
My other really big problem with the Shapeshifter is that he only gets one Greater Werewolf shift per rest period. So by "coast on it until Underdark" you either mean forfeit all of your druid spells entirely and spend all of your time as a wolf, or else only bring it out once per day for big fights, and if you need to shift back to cast a spell well... hope you enjoyed it while it lasted.
It just seems like terrible kit design. I don't know who was in charge of it and thought it was apparently a good idea to create a kit with a noticeable built-in disadvantage, and a built-in advantage that ceased scaling entirely at 750,000 XP. Imagine if a Kensai or a Monk stopped getting any more bonuses after level 11.
It's still a usable class. Cernd has seen several of my quests through to the end, and he'll always have a role as the only pure druid in the game, no matter how garbage his stats are. But it's pretty unambiguously a bad kit, in my opinion. He'd be so much better if he were a Totemic Druid or an Avenger.
Well yeah, but multiclass is better than everything else anyway, kits don't really matter then.
Because of the insane Druid XP tables, it's one of the few cases where there's a strong argument that pureclass is better than multi. Needing 3m XP to hit level 14 and 6m XP to hit level 15 is rough.
Now, all of this is compensated, of course, by nymphs, whose healing spell is so good, you actually do bother to use it even during a fight, not just in between - note that the nymph actually use YOUR caster level for mass cure (at least I think they do, from my own observations), so a ten level druid with 18 wis gets a total healing power of ((4 x 11-18 HP) x # wounded party members). Also, please to be noted that mass cure is actually a fifth level spell, so you get a fifth level spell at level four, + some hold persons and charms and the like + some minor damage soaking. Unfortunately, nymphs in BGEE are unruly as hell. No matter what you tell them to do, they will do whatever they feel like, which, for reasons I cannot comprehend, is to engage succesfully held creatures in a kissing session. I seem to remember that before EE, nymphs were much easier to control (or maybe it is just a black pits thing, just like charm and dominate etc sometimes glitches and you immediately lose control even though they did not succeed their saving throw). In either case, the nymph AI needs to be patched to hell and back again, because their current unrulyness is a major cause of aggravation, the kind that would have made me throw my NES-controller in the floor, if I were younger and BGee was for the NES.
Couple of things here.
Nymphs use their own caster level for spells (they are level 5).
Nymphs (as of 2.0) are now way more willing to let you cast a spell of your choosing (as well as telling them where to walk around) than they were in the original BG2. Like way more. In the original BG2 even if you chose a spell and told them to cast it they would almost always cancel casting the spell midway (making them lose the spell). They also would basically refuse to move at all if there was an enemy nearby. Not saying they are perfect now, but make sure you are running the latest EE version because the difference is night and day.
Well, that would explain that then. I have a long commute to work, so BG is an android thing for me... Is the 2.0 patch also for andriod? Because it hasnt autodownloaded it...
But are you sure you havent nerfed nymphs and druids? Because I seem to remember; 1. Most nymph spells stop working in later acts, because everyone and their mother have insane saving throws. And also, they cant even do as cannon fodder because everything kills them in less time it takes to even summon them. However, the mass cure I used right to the end of SoA. Even during combat. I think they are supposed to use your casting level for mass cure. Or maybe they would gain more levels when you reached higher levels... or something? 2. Shapeshifting into whatever (not just werewolves) heals some HP, so shapeshifters could change from werewolves to werewolf to regain HP (shifting back to man, however, does not heal. 3. Greater werewolves had 50% magic resistance. I dont remember about healing 3 HP per round, but they should according to tgeir description (this healing is why you get only one greater werewolf a day I think)
Comments to others that I am to lazy to qoute; 1. I wouldnt know how useful druids are in ToB, because I always make a fresh party for ToB, using the pocket plane summon ability. But yeah, Cernd and greater werewolf is worth it at least until you defeat Irenicus. 2. Non werewolf F/D does not gain 21 str, which is +4 hit and +8 dmg. Human dualclass get 5 pips which is awesome, combined with greater werewolf +2 APR and fighter +2 APR (after you dispel claws). Even 19 str and 1 extra APR is awesome.
1. Version 2.0 isn't on android yet. You'll see the changes to nymphs then when we release 2.4. Nothing else about them has changed from the original game. 2. The only shapeshift form that ever healed in the BG series were the higher level druid forms (fire and earth elementals) and only when you change back into a human. 3. Greater werewolves had 40% magic resistance in the original BG2. Their description in my copy of BGEE/BG2EE doesn't say anything about 3hp/round, so that's probably just a description error that will get fixed for you by the next patch.
Oh my! I was wrong on everything! The voices in my head have done got the better of me once again!!!
But, seeing how most people argue shapeshifting sucks, why not just go ahead and include IWD healing also for BG, to make it more appealing, for the 2.4 patch? Also, since all greater enemy werewolves, like the loup garou, regs, and, like pointed out, you only get 1 greater werewolf a day at the cost of losing access to spells, why not include that as well? Then again, the reg is maybe a bit OP though (says I, ignoring cheater classes like dwarven defender)
Well yeah, but multiclass is better than everything else anyway, kits don't really matter then.
Because of the insane Druid XP tables, it's one of the few cases where there's a strong argument that pureclass is better than multi. Needing 3m XP to hit level 14 and 6m XP to hit level 15 is rough.
I smooth out that stupid curve in my game. Traditionally a SoA Druid caps at 14, in mine it's 21. Cleric's 20. As a result of my tinkering, Druid winds up at 34th by the 8M cap instead of 31st.
The dispel claw feature was bug, and its fortunately fixed for now.
Not on my andriod it isnt. Sorc polymorph bear + phantom blade scroll = fun fun!
Well, did they at least make werewolf claws count as +2 weapons for the purpose of determining what it can damage and greater werewolf count as +4? As well as adding all the resistances? Also, obviously, switching into a werewolf should expend a spell round, but turning back is akin to a spell expiring, therefore you should not expend a spell round for doing that!
Because patching only the bugs that help shapeshifters but not the ones that harm them...
Edit: also, like I pointed out, natural AC =/= wearing armor, so shifted AC should stack with armor spells, such as barkskin.
Barkskin is not intended to give an AC boost to characters with low AC already. Given how tough werewolf skin / fur is already, it's not surprising that barkskin doesn't enhance that .
@SomeSort The one G. Werewolf form a day is only a disadvantage if you don't like to rest. Likewise the no armor isn't really a disadvantage, as the druid will be casting from the back line when not shapeshifted. IMO the differences between the different kits gets smaller and smaller as the game continues. Sword spider + Web loses a lot of oomph in ToB. Likewise, the spirit animals fall off at about the same rate as the werewolf forms. The kits basically revert to vanilla druid by the end anyway. I still maintain that the greater werewolf is good enough to just stay shifted basically 24/7 for 90% of SoA.
2. Non werewolf F/D does not gain 21 str, which is +4 hit and +8 dmg. Human dualclass get 5 pips which is awesome, combined with greater werewolf +2 APR and fighter +2 APR (after you dispel claws). Even 19 str and 1 extra APR is awesome.
Reaching 21 strength with any class or kit is as simple as putting on a belt. Alternately, tomes and stat boosts can get you anywhere between 19 and 24, depending on what you're starting at and how much of the series you're playing through.
Also, you can't dual-class into kits ordinarily, so no Grandmastery + Werewolf form. Plus dispelling claws is a glitch/exploit and probably shouldn't be factored into the value of the kit.
@SomeSort The one G. Werewolf form a day is only a disadvantage if you don't like to rest. Likewise the no armor isn't really a disadvantage, as the druid will be casting from the back line when not shapeshifted. IMO the differences between the different kits gets smaller and smaller as the game continues. Sword spider + Web loses a lot of oomph in ToB. Likewise, the spirit animals fall off at about the same rate as the werewolf forms. The kits basically revert to vanilla druid by the end anyway. I still maintain that the greater werewolf is good enough to just stay shifted basically 24/7 for 90% of SoA.
I'm not a low-rest player, but resting after every encounter is a bridge too far for me, so that means you're either going a couple encounters in a row without shifting or you're going a couple encounters in a row without casting. Not a dealbreaker, but it does make the ability to switch between casting and melee less of a selling point of the shifter class.
I'd agree that you easily could spend 90% of SoA in Greater Werewolf form. Of course, if you do you'll basically just be a mediocre-to-bad fighter. Slightly better AC and solid damage resistances, but bad saving throws and no way to defend against nasty spell effects with weapons/shields means you're not really any more survivable. Plus your damage output will probably be half that of a real fighter, at best, and your THACO will be blergh.
I'm not saying it's an unusable kit. I'm just saying it's a bad one, mechanically. From a powergaming standpoint I don't think it offers anything. Totemic summons can be used all the way to the throne to soak some hits, and while Web loses its oomph, Avengers gain five other solid spells and will pretty much never stop using their kit bonus.
And the loss of armor isn't nothing. AC isn't the be-all end-all in ToB, but you're still looking at something like a 12-point AC bonus from White Dragon Scale or a handy speed boost from Grandmaster's Armor.
"I'm not saying it's an unusable kit. I'm just saying it's a bad one, mechanically. From a powergaming standpoint I don't think it offers anything. Totemic summons can be used all the way to the throne to soak some hits, and while Web loses its oomph, Avengers gain five other solid spells and will pretty much never stop using their kit bonus.
And the loss of armor isn't nothing. AC isn't the be-all end-all in ToB, but you're still looking at something like a 12-point AC bonus from White Dragon Scale or a handy speed boost from Grandmaster's Armor."
The druids regular high level and HLA summons will outpace the Totemic summons in ToB. Likewise the Avengers extra spells aren't as effective by that late stage. The kits are all equally valid from a caster standpoint in ToB, which is what they will be doing at that point. The armor very much is a non factor, you should never place your casters in a situation where armor will matter, especially not in ToB. Shapeshifters lose absolutely nothing from a powergaming perspective.
I'm still wondering why these druid vs. cleric discussions never seem to include the shaman. I just started a half-orc shaman with 19/18/19, axe and shortbow. The half-orc stats and weapon selection alone are almost worth the price of admission. You get that, plus special shaman spells, plus sorcerer based casting, plus summoning through dancing. It seems like an awfully good druid kit to me, especially since it's the only druid kit that is available to the half-orc. I'm really looking forward to using Azuredge in BG2.
I'm still wondering why these druid vs. cleric discussions never seem to include the shaman. I just started a half-orc shaman with 19/18/19, axe and shortbow. The half-orc stats and weapon selection alone are almost worth the price of admission. You get that, plus special shaman spells, plus sorcerer based casting, plus summoning through dancing. It seems like an awfully good druid kit to me, especially since it's the only druid kit that is available to the half-orc. I'm really looking forward to using Azuredge in BG2.
Considering the OP is on android and android doesn't have shamans due to being on 1.3 still. The cleric v druid is another pointless my dad can beat up your dad argument.
The druids regular high level and HLA summons will outpace the Totemic summons in ToB. Likewise the Avengers extra spells aren't as effective by that late stage. The kits are all equally valid from a caster standpoint in ToB, which is what they will be doing at that point. The armor very much is a non factor, you should never place your casters in a situation where armor will matter, especially not in ToB. Shapeshifters lose absolutely nothing from a powergaming perspective.
The Avenger's extra spells aren't as effective by late ToB, but the non-Avenger's normal spell selection is completely useless. Web ain't an "I Win!" button against quality ToB saves, but I'll tell you, if you stack them and drop a Malison on a group of enemies, you *will* wind up with held enemies. Meanwhile, non-Avengers are casting... what, Goodberry with their level 2 slots?
Chaos (with that sweet -4 save modifier) and Improved Invisibility are totally viable all the way to the end of the game, (and every Improved Invisibility your druid memorizes is one more level 4 spell slot for your mage to devote to Stoneskin or greater malison).
The Druid's regular and HLA summons are better than the Spirit Animals, sure. The Druid's regular and HLA summons also take up HLAs and level 6/7 spell slots. Is a Fire Elemental better than a Spirit Animal? Yes, (though not by a huge margin). Is it better than a Spirit Animal and two Insect Plagues? Because that's what you could have if you used that level 6 spell slot for Wondrous Recall, instead.
For comparison: 12 HD Fire Elemental: 2 AC, 96 HP, 1 APR, 5-26 crushing, hits as a +4 weapon, 8 THACO, immune to +1 or less weapons, 100% fire resistance Spirit Bear: 2 AC, 96 HP, 3 APR, 1-10 crushing, hits as a +6 weapon, 10 THACO, target must save vs. Death with +3 bonus or become panicked, immune to non-magical weapons, 100% cold / electricity / poison resistance, immune to fear, polymorph, sleep, paralysis, web, entangle, hold, slow, grease, feeblemind, confusion, petrification, haste, charm, level drain
Obviously if you get a lucky roll and wind up with a 16HD or 24HD Fire Elemental the comparison won't be so close, but the most common outcome of Summon Fire Elemental is the 12HD version. Tell me which is the better summon there. The Fire Elemental gets +2 THACO and immunity to +1 weapons. The Spirit Bear gets a raft of useful status immunities.
So given that Spirit animals are almost as good as Fire Elementals, it's like the Totemic Druid gets an extra 6th level spell slot for every 5 levels. Combine that with the Avenger's upgraded spell selection, and both make better caster druids than the Shapeshifter. Sure, the Shapeshifter isn't *that* far behind them, just like the unkitted cleric doesn't lose *that* much compared to the Priest of Talos kit. But it's still an unambiguous downgrade.
Also, in a perfect world, your casters will never be subjected to a single enemy attack because you simply stand them in the back. I'm not that good of a player; all of my spellcasters wind up taking an occasional shot. And when that occasional shot occurs, it'd be nice to have 12 extra points of AC to increase my odds of surviving it.
I'd wager I drag Cernd along with me more than most, just because I like pureclass druids. Doesn't mean I have any illusions about his kit. It's poorly designed and poorly implemented.
I'm still wondering why these druid vs. cleric discussions never seem to include the shaman. I just started a half-orc shaman with 19/18/19, axe and shortbow. The half-orc stats and weapon selection alone are almost worth the price of admission. You get that, plus special shaman spells, plus sorcerer based casting, plus summoning through dancing. It seems like an awfully good druid kit to me, especially since it's the only druid kit that is available to the half-orc. I'm really looking forward to using Azuredge in BG2.
I'm on iOS, so stuck in 1.3 for now, but I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the Shaman. If there's anyone whose spell pool could benefit from a Sorcererification, it's the Druid, who might only have 2-4 good spells per level.
"It's poorly designed and poorly implemented." Anytime someone says this about a kit, its a clear sign they don't know how to use it.
Both the original statement and the response seem a bit harsh. The wonderful thing about Baldur's Gate is that the way you play it has a dramatic effect on how useful particular tactics and classes are. For instance @SomeSort has put together a good case above for why the totemic druid kit effectively has more spell slots than the shapeshifter. However, @ThacoBell has already said in the thread that he normally rests regularly - and hence extra spell slots may be of little value to him.
Perhaps it's time to just accept that points of view differ and move on to the next argument?
Also, you can't dual-class into kits ordinarily, so no Grandmastery + Werewolf form. Plus dispelling claws is a glitch/exploit and probably shouldn't be factored into the value of the kit.
Not true. Well, not the dual into a kit, but the other part. If you dual from shapeshifter into fighter, you can put 5 pips in scimitar. I know, because I just did it in the black pits.
Edit:... unless that is some kind of black pits thing if you accidentally lock out your first kit. I dualed at lvl 9, but you cannot reach 10 lvl fighter in the pits, so I was like "do-over? Urghh"
Have you considered to play a shaman? Forget his dance and play him like a druid. He levels up nicely without the big gap between L14 and L15. There is even a mod that gives him his own stronghold quest. A half-orc shaman is a very strong support character.
"It's poorly designed and poorly implemented." Anytime someone says this about a kit, its a clear sign they don't know how to use it.
Both the original statement and the response seem a bit harsh. The wonderful thing about Baldur's Gate is that the way you play it has a dramatic effect on how useful particular tactics and classes are. For instance @SomeSort has put together a good case above for why the totemic druid kit effectively has more spell slots than the shapeshifter. However, @ThacoBell has already said in the thread that he normally rests regularly - and hence extra spell slots may be of little value to him.
Perhaps it's time to just accept that points of view differ and move on to the next argument?
Gah, I've gona and done it again. That was not meant to be harsh, but now I can't see it as anything but. Apologies @SomeSort
"It's poorly designed and poorly implemented." Anytime someone says this about a kit, its a clear sign they don't know how to use it.
Hence me asking you how you play shapeshifters to see why your experience with the kit has been so different than mine.
Although I do stand behind the "poorly designed and poorly implemented" line, regardless of whether it's effective in practice or not, (and I currently come down on "least effective druid kit in practice"). To me, "design and implementation" is entirely different from playability or even "quality".
Take the Beastmaster, for instance. I think it's the worst Ranger kit. You're giving up the best weapons and armor for access to some of the worst summon spells, (the animal summoning line). But conceptually, I think it's totally fine. You're a woods-loving, animal-loving hermit... so you don't use metal tools and you summon animals. That makes total sense! (The Find Familiar is a bit of a wonky fit: an animal companion is great theoretically, but the engine limits the Beastmaster to dragon familiars, which aren't very... beasty. But give him a Rabbit or a Ferret and suddenly it's a huge thematic win.)
What's the concept of a Shapeshifter? A druid who intentionally infected himself with lycanthropy so he could gain much better control over his single alternate form. To me, conceptually, "better control" should be the ability to shift back and forth, if not at will, then at least more than once per day. But you can't. To me, that's poor design. Allow the druid to gain additional Greater Werewolf shifts as he levels up and it doesn't really do much for the power of the kit overall, but it makes the mechanics fit the concept so much better.
The Greater Werewolf form lacks so much of what makes enemy Greater Werewolves so powerful in BG2. That's poor implementation. The Shapeshifter eventually gets access to the Elemental Shapeshift forms as HLAs, which contradicts the core premise of the kit. That's poor implementation.
You admit that in the end-game, the Shapeshifter plays pretty much identically to the Totemic Druid or Avenger, (I'd say a gimped version of either), which seems like poor design and/or implementation. If a high-level Wizard Slayer, Kensai, and Berserker all played the same, that seems like it would be a design problem.
(In fact, the only other class I can think of where all the kits wind up converging like that at high levels is Bard, thanks to the Bard Song HLA which was... poorly designed and implemented.)
I consider this separate from the "not very good from a powergaming perspective" issue.
Gah, I've gona and done it again. That was not meant to be harsh, but now I can't see it as anything but. Apologies @SomeSort
Oh no, don't worry about it, I never assumed you meant anything. My first rule of discussing things on the internet is if something can be interpreted two ways, and one of them is offensive or abrasive or upsetting, choose the other. We're all just people who like a 15-year-old game so much that we debate silly meaningless differences of opinion about it for fun.
Beyond that, a known flaw of the internet is that it's kind of terribad at conveying nuance. I'm not much of one to let such an obvious flaw come between two fellow travelers sharing their passion.
Also, if I ever say something that comes off as offensive, abrasive, or upsetting, please know I didn't mean it that way, and feel free to call me out for being a jerk anyway.
What's the concept of a Shapeshifter? A druid who intentionally infected himself with lycanthropy so he could gain much better control over his single alternate form. To me, conceptually, "better control" should be the ability to shift back and forth, if not at will, then at least more than once per day. But you can't. To me, that's poor design. Allow the druid to gain additional Greater Werewolf shifts as he levels up and it doesn't really do much for the power of the kit overall, but it makes the mechanics fit the concept so much better.
You get one werewolf change every other level, which quickly almost becomes at will. Its only greater werewolf that is limited to one charge - although I think it would have been better to upgrade all werewolf to greater werewolf charges.
Anyway, getting the basic facts wrong tells me one thing; you read the description and decided it was not for you and therefore did not actually bother play it. Now, thats fine, I have never played a wizard slayer...
...but I dont go around talking smack about wizard slayers, do I?
It's a shame as I've taken a shapeshifter from bg 1 to the the Underdark solo. I tend to always drop my playthroughs at the Underdark for some strange reason have a ton of save games all at the Underdark. I'm not a huge fan of clerics either as a charname only cleric I ever use is vic. The rest I just find annoying, anomen or aerie....rather watch paint dry than is ten to those whinge bags.
Take the Beastmaster, for instance. I think it's the worst Ranger kit. You're giving up the best weapons and armor for access to some of the worst summon spells, (the animal summoning line). But conceptually, I think it's totally fine. You're a woods-loving, animal-loving hermit... so you don't use metal tools and you summon animals. That makes total sense! (The Find Familiar is a bit of a wonky fit: an animal companion is great theoretically, but the engine limits the Beastmaster to dragon familiars, which aren't very... beasty. But give him a Rabbit or a Ferret and suddenly it's a huge thematic win.)
Yeah, you really love animals, so you summon droves of them from their perfectly ordinary lives and places in the food chain and compel them to die nasty deaths on the points of your enemies' swords, spears, and demonic claws for your own gain. Beastmasters are hypocrites! DOWN WITH BEASTMASTERS!
Comments
My other really big problem with the Shapeshifter is that he only gets one Greater Werewolf shift per rest period. So by "coast on it until Underdark" you either mean forfeit all of your druid spells entirely and spend all of your time as a wolf, or else only bring it out once per day for big fights, and if you need to shift back to cast a spell well... hope you enjoyed it while it lasted.
It just seems like terrible kit design. I don't know who was in charge of it and thought it was apparently a good idea to create a kit with a noticeable built-in disadvantage, and a built-in advantage that ceased scaling entirely at 750,000 XP. Imagine if a Kensai or a Monk stopped getting any more bonuses after level 11.
It's still a usable class. Cernd has seen several of my quests through to the end, and he'll always have a role as the only pure druid in the game, no matter how garbage his stats are. But it's pretty unambiguously a bad kit, in my opinion. He'd be so much better if he were a Totemic Druid or an Avenger.
Is the 2.0 patch also for andriod? Because it hasnt autodownloaded it...
But are you sure you havent nerfed nymphs and druids? Because I seem to remember;
1. Most nymph spells stop working in later acts, because everyone and their mother have insane saving throws. And also, they cant even do as cannon fodder because everything kills them in less time it takes to even summon them. However, the mass cure I used right to the end of SoA. Even during combat. I think they are supposed to use your casting level for mass cure. Or maybe they would gain more levels when you reached higher levels... or something?
2. Shapeshifting into whatever (not just werewolves) heals some HP, so shapeshifters could change from werewolves to werewolf to regain HP (shifting back to man, however, does not heal.
3. Greater werewolves had 50% magic resistance. I dont remember about healing 3 HP per round, but they should according to tgeir description (this healing is why you get only one greater werewolf a day I think)
Comments to others that I am to lazy to qoute;
1. I wouldnt know how useful druids are in ToB, because I always make a fresh party for ToB, using the pocket plane summon ability. But yeah, Cernd and greater werewolf is worth it at least until you defeat Irenicus.
2. Non werewolf F/D does not gain 21 str, which is +4 hit and +8 dmg. Human dualclass get 5 pips which is awesome, combined with greater werewolf +2 APR and fighter +2 APR (after you dispel claws). Even 19 str and 1 extra APR is awesome.
2. The only shapeshift form that ever healed in the BG series were the higher level druid forms (fire and earth elementals) and only when you change back into a human.
3. Greater werewolves had 40% magic resistance in the original BG2. Their description in my copy of BGEE/BG2EE doesn't say anything about 3hp/round, so that's probably just a description error that will get fixed for you by the next patch.
But, seeing how most people argue shapeshifting sucks, why not just go ahead and include IWD healing also for BG, to make it more appealing, for the 2.4 patch? Also, since all greater enemy werewolves, like the loup garou, regs, and, like pointed out, you only get 1 greater werewolf a day at the cost of losing access to spells, why not include that as well? Then again, the reg is maybe a bit OP though (says I, ignoring cheater classes like dwarven defender)
Well, did they at least make werewolf claws count as +2 weapons for the purpose of determining what it can damage and greater werewolf count as +4? As well as adding all the resistances? Also, obviously, switching into a werewolf should expend a spell round, but turning back is akin to a spell expiring, therefore you should not expend a spell round for doing that!
Because patching only the bugs that help shapeshifters but not the ones that harm them...
Edit: also, like I pointed out, natural AC =/= wearing armor, so shifted AC should stack with armor spells, such as barkskin.
Also, you can't dual-class into kits ordinarily, so no Grandmastery + Werewolf form. Plus dispelling claws is a glitch/exploit and probably shouldn't be factored into the value of the kit.
I'd agree that you easily could spend 90% of SoA in Greater Werewolf form. Of course, if you do you'll basically just be a mediocre-to-bad fighter. Slightly better AC and solid damage resistances, but bad saving throws and no way to defend against nasty spell effects with weapons/shields means you're not really any more survivable. Plus your damage output will probably be half that of a real fighter, at best, and your THACO will be blergh.
I'm not saying it's an unusable kit. I'm just saying it's a bad one, mechanically. From a powergaming standpoint I don't think it offers anything. Totemic summons can be used all the way to the throne to soak some hits, and while Web loses its oomph, Avengers gain five other solid spells and will pretty much never stop using their kit bonus.
And the loss of armor isn't nothing. AC isn't the be-all end-all in ToB, but you're still looking at something like a 12-point AC bonus from White Dragon Scale or a handy speed boost from Grandmaster's Armor.
And the loss of armor isn't nothing. AC isn't the be-all end-all in ToB, but you're still looking at something like a 12-point AC bonus from White Dragon Scale or a handy speed boost from Grandmaster's Armor."
The druids regular high level and HLA summons will outpace the Totemic summons in ToB. Likewise the Avengers extra spells aren't as effective by that late stage. The kits are all equally valid from a caster standpoint in ToB, which is what they will be doing at that point. The armor very much is a non factor, you should never place your casters in a situation where armor will matter, especially not in ToB. Shapeshifters lose absolutely nothing from a powergaming perspective.
Chaos (with that sweet -4 save modifier) and Improved Invisibility are totally viable all the way to the end of the game, (and every Improved Invisibility your druid memorizes is one more level 4 spell slot for your mage to devote to Stoneskin or greater malison).
The Druid's regular and HLA summons are better than the Spirit Animals, sure. The Druid's regular and HLA summons also take up HLAs and level 6/7 spell slots. Is a Fire Elemental better than a Spirit Animal? Yes, (though not by a huge margin). Is it better than a Spirit Animal and two Insect Plagues? Because that's what you could have if you used that level 6 spell slot for Wondrous Recall, instead.
For comparison:
12 HD Fire Elemental: 2 AC, 96 HP, 1 APR, 5-26 crushing, hits as a +4 weapon, 8 THACO, immune to +1 or less weapons, 100% fire resistance
Spirit Bear: 2 AC, 96 HP, 3 APR, 1-10 crushing, hits as a +6 weapon, 10 THACO, target must save vs. Death with +3 bonus or become panicked, immune to non-magical weapons, 100% cold / electricity / poison resistance, immune to fear, polymorph, sleep, paralysis, web, entangle, hold, slow, grease, feeblemind, confusion, petrification, haste, charm, level drain
Obviously if you get a lucky roll and wind up with a 16HD or 24HD Fire Elemental the comparison won't be so close, but the most common outcome of Summon Fire Elemental is the 12HD version. Tell me which is the better summon there. The Fire Elemental gets +2 THACO and immunity to +1 weapons. The Spirit Bear gets a raft of useful status immunities.
So given that Spirit animals are almost as good as Fire Elementals, it's like the Totemic Druid gets an extra 6th level spell slot for every 5 levels. Combine that with the Avenger's upgraded spell selection, and both make better caster druids than the Shapeshifter. Sure, the Shapeshifter isn't *that* far behind them, just like the unkitted cleric doesn't lose *that* much compared to the Priest of Talos kit. But it's still an unambiguous downgrade.
Also, in a perfect world, your casters will never be subjected to a single enemy attack because you simply stand them in the back. I'm not that good of a player; all of my spellcasters wind up taking an occasional shot. And when that occasional shot occurs, it'd be nice to have 12 extra points of AC to increase my odds of surviving it.
I'd wager I drag Cernd along with me more than most, just because I like pureclass druids. Doesn't mean I have any illusions about his kit. It's poorly designed and poorly implemented.
Perhaps it's time to just accept that points of view differ and move on to the next argument?
Edit:... unless that is some kind of black pits thing if you accidentally lock out your first kit. I dualed at lvl 9, but you cannot reach 10 lvl fighter in the pits, so I was like "do-over? Urghh"
Although I do stand behind the "poorly designed and poorly implemented" line, regardless of whether it's effective in practice or not, (and I currently come down on "least effective druid kit in practice"). To me, "design and implementation" is entirely different from playability or even "quality".
Take the Beastmaster, for instance. I think it's the worst Ranger kit. You're giving up the best weapons and armor for access to some of the worst summon spells, (the animal summoning line). But conceptually, I think it's totally fine. You're a woods-loving, animal-loving hermit... so you don't use metal tools and you summon animals. That makes total sense! (The Find Familiar is a bit of a wonky fit: an animal companion is great theoretically, but the engine limits the Beastmaster to dragon familiars, which aren't very... beasty. But give him a Rabbit or a Ferret and suddenly it's a huge thematic win.)
What's the concept of a Shapeshifter? A druid who intentionally infected himself with lycanthropy so he could gain much better control over his single alternate form. To me, conceptually, "better control" should be the ability to shift back and forth, if not at will, then at least more than once per day. But you can't. To me, that's poor design. Allow the druid to gain additional Greater Werewolf shifts as he levels up and it doesn't really do much for the power of the kit overall, but it makes the mechanics fit the concept so much better.
The Greater Werewolf form lacks so much of what makes enemy Greater Werewolves so powerful in BG2. That's poor implementation. The Shapeshifter eventually gets access to the Elemental Shapeshift forms as HLAs, which contradicts the core premise of the kit. That's poor implementation.
You admit that in the end-game, the Shapeshifter plays pretty much identically to the Totemic Druid or Avenger, (I'd say a gimped version of either), which seems like poor design and/or implementation. If a high-level Wizard Slayer, Kensai, and Berserker all played the same, that seems like it would be a design problem.
(In fact, the only other class I can think of where all the kits wind up converging like that at high levels is Bard, thanks to the Bard Song HLA which was... poorly designed and implemented.)
I consider this separate from the "not very good from a powergaming perspective" issue.
Beyond that, a known flaw of the internet is that it's kind of terribad at conveying nuance. I'm not much of one to let such an obvious flaw come between two fellow travelers sharing their passion.
Also, if I ever say something that comes off as offensive, abrasive, or upsetting, please know I didn't mean it that way, and feel free to call me out for being a jerk anyway.
Anyway, getting the basic facts wrong tells me one thing; you read the description and decided it was not for you and therefore did not actually bother play it. Now, thats fine, I have never played a wizard slayer...
...but I dont go around talking smack about wizard slayers, do I?