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Clerics are only saved by draw upon holy might

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  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    Summoned creatures don't die in reality. Think of it as fate stay night. After dying or doing their duty they return to their original state.
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    edited April 2017
    Grond0 said:

    This business about loving animals is just camouflage. There's a clue in the title Beast Master - it's all about dominance >:).

    Oh, you mean they're actually Beastly Masters, and this grammatical snafu has gone unnoticed by the general public? That makes sense, actually.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    DrakeICN said:

    SomeSort said:

    What's the concept of a Shapeshifter? A druid who intentionally infected himself with lycanthropy so he could gain much better control over his single alternate form. To me, conceptually, "better control" should be the ability to shift back and forth, if not at will, then at least more than once per day. But you can't. To me, that's poor design. Allow the druid to gain additional Greater Werewolf shifts as he levels up and it doesn't really do much for the power of the kit overall, but it makes the mechanics fit the concept so much better.

    You get one werewolf change every other level, which quickly almost becomes at will. Its only greater werewolf that is limited to one charge - although I think it would have been better to upgrade all werewolf to greater werewolf charges.

    Anyway, getting the basic facts wrong tells me one thing; you read the description and decided it was not for you and therefore did not actually bother play it. Now, thats fine, I have never played a wizard slayer...

    ...but I dont go around talking smack about wizard slayers, do I?
    What basic facts am I getting wrong? You decide to educate me on the fact that you get a ton of Werewolf shifts, it's only *GREATER WEREWOLF* where you're limited to one shift per day. Now go back and read the very last sentence of the post you quoted. I'll go ahead and copy/paste it here and do a bit of highlighting for you:

    "Allow the druid to gain additional Greater Werewolf shifts as he levels up and it doesn't really do much for the power of the kit overall, but it makes the mechanics fit the concept so much better."

    See? I specifically mentioned Greater Werewolf shifts, because those are the ones where Shapeshifters only get one shift per day, and that for me is the problem with the kit. And you apparently agree with me, since you think Werewolf shifts should be upgraded to Greater Werewolf shifts after a certain point, giving... a shapeshifter extra Greater Werewolf shifts... which is exactly what I suggested... in the post where you claim I don't understand basic facts about the kit...

    Anyway, you're welcome to assume that I've not actually bothered to play a shapeshifter, but that tells me you either haven't bothered reading my posts in this thread, or else you think I'm a lying liar who lies. Here are some more things I've said so far in this thread:
    "I actually use Cernd a fair bit"
    "I've got a fun game going right now that's me (Dwarven Defender), Jan, and Cernd"
    "I use Cernd because I like Druids."
    "I've taken Cernd plenty of times"
    "that's mostly how I play Cernd"
    "Cernd has seen several of my quests through to the end"
    "I'd wager I drag Cernd along with me more than most"

    So... yeah. You can claim I'm playing Shapeshifters wrong all you want. I'm totally open to that possibility, and in fact have several times asked @ThacoBell how he or she plays shapeshifters trying to figure out why his or her experiences have been different from mine, (or even if they have been different from mine-- it sounds like they haven't been, it's just our perception of those experiences that is different). But that's a completely different thing from believing I'm speaking entirely from reading the description and that I've never bothered to actually play the kit.

    Disagreements happen on the internet. That's not even a bad thing; disagreeing is fun! But I find that disagreements are much more fun and productive if they're approached with an assumption of good intent. Assume the other party is making an honest and fair effort to advance the conversation.

    I'm here to share my experiences and to learn from others sharing their experiences. I assume you are as well. Productive disagreement helps both of us achieve our goals together.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited April 2017
    Oh, sorry then. This is a minor misunderstanding, not really worth getting all worked up over, but I am particular, which is why I show your qoute below;

    "A druid who intentionally infected himself with lycanthropy so he could gain much better control over his single alternate form. To me, conceptually, "better control" should be the ability to shift back and forth, if not at will, then at least more than once per day. But you can't. To me, that's poor design."

    Could it be misunderstood the way I misunderstood it? Surely... wouldn't you agree? But I will not press this point, just trying to set the record straight. Again, no disrespect, I made a mistake, my bad.

    Coincidentally, I do agree with you. I think all those werewolf charges should be upgraded to greater werewolf charges. I mean, why not? Several other spells and abilities scale...

    I think the druid class could be made more competitive by these simple steps;
    1. Add lvl 1, 2 and 3 animal summon spells, that summon 1D4+1 critters or something, all of whom are low level, but scale to caster level, so that they are not completely useless until midgame (lvl1&2 spell) and late game (lvl 3 spell)
    2. Add the following HLA:s;
    2.1. Weapons fuse into claws: Animal shapeshift claws are now considered +(whatever) weapons for determining what it can damage, depending on your main hand weapon, and get half THAC0 and damage bonus for +(whatever). If that is impossible, then +5 for hit, +2 to THAC0 and dmg, or something.
    2.2. Retractable claws: Animal shapeshift claws are now considered blunt as well as primary (piercing?) for determining what it can damage.
    2.3. Scaly fur: The druid have learned how to create "hybrid" animals, allowing him/her to increase natural AC of shapeshifted forms by +2, by fusing fur with dragon scales.
    2.4. Glowing claws: For 5 rounds, a shapeshifted druid claws deals +2D6 of fire damage, on top of the normal damage. This HLA can be taken several times.
    3. Shapeshifting into an animal / monster / elemental form heals the druid 1 HP for every 2 levels of the druid, however, shapeshifting back into primary form does not.
    4. Shapeshifting back into primary form is made akin to a spell expiring, thus allowing the druid to cast a spell the same round he/she turns back into primary form. Shapeshifting into an animal / monster / elemental, however, still takes a magic round, so it is not possible to first cast a spell and then shift in the same round, nor is it possible to shift and activate a special ability in the same round.
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 803
    Not going to say anything about the others, but no. 1 literally obliterates any reason to run Beastmaster, since Rangers share the same spell pool as Druids. I know that a couple of mods like IWD-ification add a few offensive spells for Druids, so for early game buffs you should look there.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited April 2017
    Neverused said:

    Not going to say anything about the others, but no. 1 literally obliterates any reason to run Beastmaster, since Rangers share the same spell pool as Druids. I know that a couple of mods like IWD-ification add a few offensive spells for Druids, so for early game buffs you should look there.

    Ok ok, also make the theoretical mod give beastmasters 1 special animal summon every 5 levels, starting at lvl 1, as an ability, scaling with levels - frees up spell slots for beastmasters right there, and gives them earlier access to critters.

    Also, this might save a class everyone likes to shit on, so we hit 2 flies in one swap.

    (Note that this is what totemic druids get, so beastmasters already are outed by that premise, I'd say. Lets give the beastmaster 1D4+1 animals summoned instead of 1 with his special ability, but at a lower level than totemic.)
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    SomeSort said:


    Not all love is self-sacrificing and romantic. (In fact, romantic love with animals is typically socially discouraged.)

    I love this bit especially!

    My entire post was tongue-in-cheek, in fact.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    DrakeICN said:

    Oh, sorry then. This is a minor misunderstanding, not really worth getting all worked up over, but I am particular, which is why I show your qoute below;

    "A druid who intentionally infected himself with lycanthropy so he could gain much better control over his single alternate form. To me, conceptually, "better control" should be the ability to shift back and forth, if not at will, then at least more than once per day. But you can't. To me, that's poor design."

    Could it be misunderstood the way I misunderstood it? Surely... wouldn't you agree? But I will not press this point, just trying to set the record straight. Again, no disrespect, I made a mistake, my bad.

    Yes, it easily could be misunderstood the way you misunderstood it. This is why I like to have a rule to assume good intent; if I read something and the two possible interpretations are that the other person doesn't know what they're talking about or that I misunderstood what they're trying to say, I like to err on the side of the latter interpretation, especially given my personal experience with how easy it is to misunderstand things over the internet. :)

    As for the rest of your post... I don't get the idea of adding animal summons to a Shapeshifter. I don't think it makes any sense conceptually. (The concept is someone who focuses on shifting to the exclusion of other things, so why is he gaining extra summoning powers?) I also don't think it makes any sense mechanically: Greater Werewolf form is ultimately strong defensively and weak offensively. You have a phenomenal AC and damage resistances, which means you're perfectly suited to get in enemies' faces and soak their attacks yourself. Your biggest weakness of the form, in my opinion, is a total lack of offense, not a lack of survivability.

    Mechanically, adding free summonable distractions takes away from your biggest strength without addressing your biggest weakness. Aside from the fact that it makes no sense thematically, I'm not really sure what the kit is actually getting from it. And then on top of this there's the fact that it steps on the toes of two other existing kits, (Beastmaster and Totemic Druid), that are already established as the "nature summoners" in the game.

    But the rest of your proposed changes and abilities-- the ability to upgrade your weapons, upgrade your damage, upgrade the amount of times you can shift, upgrade your ability to transition back into caster mode-- would do a lot to address the glaring weaknesses of the Shapeshifter and make it a good, quality, interesting kit.

    And the fact that it doesn't already get any of those things goes a long way to explaining why I don't think it's a good, quality, interesting kit already. :wink:
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859

    SomeSort said:


    Not all love is self-sacrificing and romantic. (In fact, romantic love with animals is typically socially discouraged.)

    I love this bit especially!

    My entire post was tongue-in-cheek, in fact.
    So was mine. I'd never trust a bear to do my taxes. :)
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    That's a beary good idea.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    With my list of improvements, I did not specifically mean shapeshifters, I meant that all druids should get them.

    The list specifically adress 3 problems (that all druids share):
    1. Bad selection of lvl 1 & 2 spells
    2. Not surrounded by weak critters - which all enemy druids are
    3. Shapeshifting does not scale well into the high levels
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Ok, almost beat the black pits as an avenger - as suggested by several in this thread - (I did not do the last battle, got bored) instead of a shapeshifter. The avenger is fun-ish, and web is definitely a very good spell, especially when combined with entangle, (spamming of both spells) a potion of freedom and darts. But the end sum is that the avengers shapeshifting abilities just cannot compete with those of the shapeshifter, and further, with the exception of the spider that can take down mirror images and stoneskins, they are not terrible useful for later critters. The salamander is shit from day 1. The baby wyverns is initially awesome because of the poison tail, but at later levels, everyone makes their saving throws pretty much automatically, and with only 16 str, the THAC0 suffers. Basically, after a certain point, there is very little reason to shapeshift - I cannot even count the number of times I was thinking "oh, if only I could shift to a werewolf right now" - and then why play druid at all? Also, a shapeshifter gets shifting at lvl 1 and an avenger at lvl 7. And also, the basic form of black/brown bear is often BETTER than the baby wyvern, wtf? Sure sure, some of the spells are better than for cleric, but you could do a dual mage-cleric instead of a druid.

    Finally, many of the extra avenger spells are simple put not necessarily preferable to the standard druid spells (with the exception of web, of course). Chromatic orb: sure, is nice to deal damage. But entangle is often more useful. Lightning bolt: If outside, why not just use call lightning instead? If inside, well, summon insect is kind of equally good. I mean, because summon insect has a saving throw for negation and long casting time, lightning bolt has its uses, but...

    Improved invisibility is great - but it competes with summon nymph. And also, its usefulness is pretty much limited to solo play. In a team, you could also just stand back...

    And chaos competes with iron skins.

    So, my final verdict is that shapeshifter is the best druid. Possible dualed into fighter at lvl 13, to get 1 extra APR, more THAC0 and fighter HLA:s for the werewolf form (note that special abilities are NOT spells, thus, fighter HLA:s are available in your werewolf form).
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    DrakeICN said:

    Ok, almost beat the black pits as an avenger - as suggested by several in this thread - (I did not do the last battle, got bored) instead of a shapeshifter. The avenger is fun-ish, and web is definitely a very good spell, especially when combined with entangle, (spamming of both spells) a potion of freedom and darts. But the end sum is that the avengers shapeshifting abilities just cannot compete with those of the shapeshifter, and further, with the exception of the spider that can take down mirror images and stoneskins, they are not terrible useful for later critters. The salamander is shit from day 1. The baby wyverns is initially awesome because of the poison tail, but at later levels, everyone makes their saving throws pretty much automatically, and with only 16 str, the THAC0 suffers. Basically, after a certain point, there is very little reason to shapeshift - I cannot even count the number of times I was thinking "oh, if only I could shift to a werewolf right now" - and then why play druid at all? Also, a shapeshifter gets shifting at lvl 1 and an avenger at lvl 7. And also, the basic form of black/brown bear is often BETTER than the baby wyvern, wtf? Sure sure, some of the spells are better than for cleric, but you could do a dual mage-cleric instead of a druid.

    Finally, many of the extra avenger spells are simple put not necessarily preferable to the standard druid spells (with the exception of web, of course). Chromatic orb: sure, is nice to deal damage. But entangle is often more useful. Lightning bolt: If outside, why not just use call lightning instead? If inside, well, summon insect is kind of equally good. I mean, because summon insect has a saving throw for negation and long casting time, lightning bolt has its uses, but...

    Improved invisibility is great - but it competes with summon nymph. And also, its usefulness is pretty much limited to solo play. In a team, you could also just stand back...

    And chaos competes with iron skins.

    So, my final verdict is that shapeshifter is the best druid. Possible dualed into fighter at lvl 13, to get 1 extra APR, more THAC0 and fighter HLA:s for the werewolf form (note that special abilities are NOT spells, thus, fighter HLA:s are available in your werewolf form).

    Other than Web > Spiderform, shapeshifting is a sideline for the Avenger. Why play a druid if you're not going to shapeshift? For the spells, of course! Like I said, Avenger is the Mage of the Druid class.

    Entangle is fine early on against melee enemies, but with a +3 save bonus and the inability to do anything against archers and casters, it's completely and totally outclassed by Web. Heck, once you start reaching decent levels, enemies are almost as likely to save against Entangle as they are against Chromatic Orb, but a failed save results in minor inconvenience instead of immediate death. (Chromatic Orb is also much, much better once enemies are making saves as both a mage-interrupter and a troll-killer.)

    Lightning Bolt is the weakest spell addition for the Avenger, mostly because it's so hard to aim. But if you drink a potion of absorption or cast protection from lightning and then start bouncing lightning bolts in narrow corridors, you can quickly do OMGWTFRIDICULOUS damage. Depending on location, it's possible to do more damage with Lightning Bolt indoors than you could with Call Lightning outdoors.

    Improved Invisibility can be cast on others, so I'm not sure how its usefulness is limited to solo play. Your party fighters might appreciate a 4-point bonus to their AC and saving throws plus immunity from single-target spells, too. Heck, I'm sure the Shapeshifter kit would love it, too. (Also, Call Woodland Beings is a phenomenal level-4 spell, but once you have 3 or so memorized, there's not too much point in adding more. Another solid level 4 spell gives you better spell variety.)

    Chaos does compete with Iron Skins (and more importantly, Insect Plague). That is, in fact, its biggest weakness. But those are three of the best level-5 spells in the game, and they all cover different situations, so there's no reason having access to all three doesn't still make your spellbook better. Insect Plague wrecks caster-heavy parties, Chaos wrecks melee-heavy parties, Iron Skin boosts your survivability.

    Shapeshifter>Fighter is an interesting dual-class, but it doesn't really address the biggest problems with the Shapeshifter kit: the claws don't deal enough damage and can't hurt a lot of enemies, and you only get one GW shift per day. Going from 3 APR to 4 APR (eventually to 10 APR with Greater Whirlwind) and improving your THACO some won't extend your viability too far beyond what just a vanilla Greater Werewolf would have.

    And in the meantime, in your unshifted form you're essentially a fighter who can't wear armor, like a Kensai but without that 2-point AC boost and all those ridiculous damage bonuses.

    If you really want to use Fighter HLAs with shifter forms, the best route is a F/D with the Earth Elemental / Fire Elemental Transformation HLAs.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited April 2017
    But that stuff is all theoretical. I'll tell you what. You solo the black pits in BG2 (I cant, because I want to beat Dragonspear on my android before I install BG2 but oh wait dragonspear is still not out for android) first with a shapeshifter and then with an avenger. You dont need to beat it, just try both classes out. If you still believe avenger is better, then, well... I dunno...

    I just gathered empirical data over here for black pits in BG1, and let me tell you, shapeshifter is the stronger kit. All druids are also all stronger than all cleric in BG1 for solo play...

    (..so I would tell you to also go ahead and try a cleric in BG2, but because of you now have reached plenty of levels and draw upon holy might is an exceptional spell at later levels, I already know that medium level druids cant match medium level clerics for solo play before even testing it. Especially since charm person and mammals, which is a great spell in BG1 black pits, will almost never work against high level enemies, so you basically lose your only useful lvl2 druid spell.)
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    Well, "solo black pits" is a pretty arbitrary benchmark for class quality, and BG1 black pits is especially a weighted comparison in favor of shapeshifter since I've acknowledged his class scaling is totally fine-- good even!-- up until it caps out at 750k XP. It's only that tiny stretch from 1m XP to 8m XP that's a problem. Besides, if we're judging strictly by "solo BG1 black pits", then mages really aren't all that much to write home about, either.

    I've played several Avengers, including completing a trilogy run with one. I've also taken Cernd through SoA and ToB several times. I've got plenty of experience with both kits. I've never soloed either, but my Avenger trilogy run was actually a duo run with Edwin, (Spider Spawns! More Webs! Greater Malison!), and as I mentioned I'm currently playing a DD / Jan / Cernd trio run, so I have experience with both in less-than-full parties to get a better sense of how much weight they can carry on their own.

    Shapeshifters are totally playable, and even quite good until they hit level 13/14, but by the time you hit the Underdark in SoA they start lagging behind the other druid kits and they never catch back up. At least, that's been my experience with them.
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