Wow, awesome list @SomeSort ! I've never really looked into the major differences between cleric-only and druid-only spells.
Although some seem a little odd to me. I feel like the summon and conjure animal spells are much more druidy and clericy. But, my knowledge behind all this is much more limited than most of you guys.
Yeah, some of the distribution is a little bit odd. I don't know why Clerics get Barkskin or the animal summoning spells, and even Earthquake seems a bit out of character for them. Take those away and the Druid gets a lot better by comparison.
On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure how "druid-y" spells like Negative Plane Protection, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Magic Resistance, or Shield of the Archons really are. Take those away and you take away the Druid's ability to fill that "divine caster" role entirely.
Sigh. I'll do a level-by-level comparison, assuming we're only comparing BG1. Characters will be... Dwarf Cleric (unkitted) and Half-elf Shapeshifter. (Another advantage Cleric gets is shorty-save bonuses.) Level 1 differences: Heavy armor, a shield, Command, vs Entangle and Darts. Hard to say who'd win this fight. NOTE: Clerics also get Sanctuary and Remove Fear, one of three classes that can consistently remove magical fear (Bard and Cavalier are the other two.) In terms of utility, Clerics are winning here. Level 2 differences: Yay. Another level 1 spell. Moving on... Level 3 differences: Hold Person, Silence 15", Aid, DuHM, Spiritual Hammer, vs Goodberry and Charm Person or Mammal. Important ones are Hold Person and Silence, and Charm Person, which technically ends the game if solo. Cleric is outright winning for now. Level 4: Ditto. Level 4 Cleric vs level 5 druid: The experience table really starts kicking in here: Druid will be at level 5 for 6k experience before the Cleric. So important spells: Call Lightning, Miscast Magic, and Call Insects. If indoors, that becomes Miscast Magic and Call Insects. Fight starts turning into who fails a save first between Silence at a -5 penalty or Hold and Miscast Magic or Call Insects, and with Shorty bonuses, the Cleric is more likely to come out on top. So Druid wins outside, Cleric wins inside. Cleric wins both if Silence connects. Level 5 Cleric vs level 5/6 Druid: And Cleric gets their level 3 spells, most notably Remove Paralysis (which is 100% utterly unique in its utility), Holy Smite, and Animate Dead. For the 1-1 combat, only Animate Dead is relevant, since it's the first summons of the game. Level 6 Cleric vs level 7 Druid: OK, here Druid starts making up ground, since Call Nymph in BG1 is incredibly broken in a good way, and Cleric spells become more utility focused rather than combat focused. Clerics can STILL win, though, if the Nymph fails a save vs spell at -5 for the silence, which isn't even that unlikely. Druids also have Free Action to block the Hold Persons now. Level 7 Cleric vs level 8 Druid: Protection from Lightning cancels the Call Lightning damage advantage from earlier, and Free Action cancels the Nymph Hold Monster spam. Protection from Evil 10" is a long-term buff that I think forces a Druid to roll a critical to hit with a dart. Level 7 Cleric vs level 9 Druid: level 5 spells kick in, giving Druids Insect Plague, Iron Skins, and Pixie Dust. Pixie Dust is an amazing out-of-combat spell for traveling, so I'll give that much, but in a straight fight? Now it's a Silence vs Insect Plague fight, a save vs spell at -5 or a save vs death at -4. Death is the strong Priest save, and shorty bonuses are giving another huge boost to the cleric. Clerics are STILL WINNING on average here, since without any saving throw boosting items, the Druid has to roll a 17 or better, while the Cleric has to roll a 6! That's a 20% vs a 70% chance to make the save. Level 8 Cleric vs level 10 Druid: Saving throws are lowered by 1 for Druid, and THAC0 drops to 14 from 16. 25% chance vs 70% chance now.
tldr; Druids have some advantages, most of them due to the better experience tables and Call Nymph. Clerics can still negate almost all of these advantages from level 3, since Silence vs Druids is absolutely ridiculous at low levels, and the lack of Vocalize. Shorty bonuses can help the Cleric straight-up win.
Edit: Note that while Shapeshifters and Druids might suffer vs Clerics, Totemic Druids and Avengers have slightly better times: Spirit Wolf and Lion and Bear fare decently vs Clerics, and Avengers get Web, Improved Invisibility, and Chaos, as well as the actually decent Sword Spider form.
This wasn't a fair comparison. The cleric was a dwarf, and the druid was a beardless half-elf. We all knew who was going to win the second you said that.
It's harder to roll up a Druid than to roll up a Cleric. Therefore, Druid should be better. However, I have not rolled up a Druid for BG1 and so can only draw upon my Cleric experience.
and Nature's Beauty is a party-friendly permablind that doesn't break invisibility
I have 0 horses in this race, because the closest I get to a priest NPC is a Ranger, and I think Jaheira/Viconia/Aerie all all fine NPCs to cover all the priestessly duties (In that order). I have trouble enough weeding down the NPC list.
But HOW exactly does someone get blinded by SEEing something they CAN'T SEE?
I think you have punched the Munchkin card a little hard here.
and Nature's Beauty is a party-friendly permablind that doesn't break invisibility
I have 0 horses in this race, because the closest I get to a priest NPC is a Ranger, and I think Jaheira/Viconia/Aerie all all fine NPCs to cover all the priestessly duties (In that order). I have trouble enough weeding down the NPC list.
But HOW exactly does someone get blinded by SEEing something they CAN'T SEE?
I think you have punched the Munchkin card a little hard here.
Nature's Beauty not breaking invisibility is a possibly overlooked interaction like Mordenk's Sword not breaking invisibility or Bard Song not breaking invisibility. (I say possibly because it's hard to know developer intent, and Pixie Dust + Nature's Beauty seems like such an obvious combo.)
Mordenk's and Bard Song have both been patched to break invisibility now. I'm not sure if Nature's Beauty has or not, (I'm on iPad, so still stuck on 1.3). Beyond Nature's Beauty, there are several other interesting cases. Should Turn Undead break invisibility, for instance? I'd definitely consider it an offensive action.
Even if Nature's Beauty has been patched, it's totally worth it for the no-save permablind, "doesn't break invisibility" is just icing. (You know, since once the enemy is blinded it doesn't matter a whole ton whether you're still invisible or not.)
As for how exactly it works from an in-universe standpoint, the caster transforms from an invisible humanoid to a visible nymph and then back again. Invisibility's spell description says casters can't manipulate the environment (although it lies; you can definitely disarm traps and open doors without breaking invisibility), and it says you can't take any offensive action, but I suppose "becoming super-duper-duper beautiful" could be seen as a non-offensive action.
At the end of the day, like all bizarre/unintended spell combinations, it's user's choice whether to take advantage or not. Invisibility can be manually ended at any time by talking to yourself if that particular combination seems to cheesy.
Wow, awesome list @SomeSort ! I've never really looked into the major differences between cleric-only and druid-only spells.
Although some seem a little odd to me. I feel like the summon and conjure animal spells are much more druidy and clericy. But, my knowledge behind all this is much more limited than most of you guys.
Yeah, some of the distribution is a little bit odd. I don't know why Clerics get Barkskin or the animal summoning spells, and even Earthquake seems a bit out of character for them. Take those away and the Druid gets a lot better by comparison.
On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure how "druid-y" spells like Negative Plane Protection, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Magic Resistance, or Shield of the Archons really are. Take those away and you take away the Druid's ability to fill that "divine caster" role entirely.
Wow, awesome list @SomeSort ! I've never really looked into the major differences between cleric-only and druid-only spells.
Although some seem a little odd to me. I feel like the summon and conjure animal spells are much more druidy and clericy. But, my knowledge behind all this is much more limited than most of you guys.
Yeah, some of the distribution is a little bit odd. I don't know why Clerics get Barkskin or the animal summoning spells, and even Earthquake seems a bit out of character for them. Take those away and the Druid gets a lot better by comparison.
On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure how "druid-y" spells like Negative Plane Protection, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Magic Resistance, or Shield of the Archons really are. Take those away and you take away the Druid's ability to fill that "divine caster" role entirely.
Is it bad that I don't use ANY of those spells?
Not bad, necessarily. The animal summoning spells mostly suck as anything other than Death Spell fodder, Barkskin has too short of a duration for my tastes, and Earthquake is a great spell but can be a bit fiddly, and there are other great alternatives.
Shield of the Archons and Death Ward are situationally tremendously useful, though both can be trumped by a timely casting of Power Word: Reload. Negative Plane Protection with its 5 round duration is far more hassle than it's worth, IMO. Magic Resistance is really far more notable for its cheesiness as a debuff than its usefulness as a buff.
Chaotic Commands, however, is really such a tremendous spell and a major quality-of-life improvement. It lasts one turn per level, which is basically forever, and it nullifies a huge swath of the most annoying status effects in the game. It's basically a Shield of Harmony that's usable by anyone, (or, as the case may be, everyone). You can solo the game with a sorcerer, so you can obviously live without it entirely if you want, but it's a great spell. It's really one of the biggest selling points of the divine casters, in my opinion.
(Also, if you keep Wondrous Recall memorized, you don't even have to keep a Chaotic Commands handy at all times. If you see an enemy who calls for it-- a Yuan-Ti Mage, an Umber Hulk, a Mind Flayer, etc-- you can always erase a 5th-level spell slot, replace it with Chaotic Commands, and then cast Wondrous Recall. Voila, you're basically a low-budget divine sorcerer.)
And oh yeah, Cernd is arguably the worst kit in the entire game, (and certainly the worst Druid kit).
Why does everyone keep saying that?
Most druid spells have a casting time of like 7-9. Even entangle, which is supposed to stop enemies in their tracks, have a casting of 4, which means a faster moving unit will reach you by the time you finish casting the spell. Defeating those ogres as solo in Black Pits sure involved a lot of running...
I would say, obviously, the role intended for a druid is to send in his wall of summoned and charmed animals, while standing behind them and buffing etc to soften up the opponents, then shapeshift and engage them in melee. Which is why level 1 and 2 spells are such an enigma, druids should get shitty summons that last 8 hours or something. Kind of like a staff of monsters except instead you summon animals and they last forever but have a casting time of 9; thus, a druid is always accompanied by a horde of low level, easy killable creatures, that with their mere presence none the less buys the druid time to cast his spells. And lo and behold, all druids you meet in the game that you need to kill are accompanied either by many low level critters, or a few strong ones.
So, the creature wall (perhaps also plus ranger bodyguards) distract the enemy, while the druid call down lightning on their sorry asses, and once the creature wall fails, the druid shapeshfts into a fighter-type creature that (while obviously cannot compete with a 0 THACO +6 bastard sword of unfair advantage 250 HP -10 AC dwarven defender, none-the-less) is a decent fighter that can take down several enemes by himself, especially after his spells and animal wall first have softened them up.
You see, the finer point of shapeshifting is that str & dex are non-essential while casting spells, so a druid that rolls an 84 or whatever can beef his charisma, wisdom, constitution and intelligence (which, admittingly, is not really useful for anything... except it is in IWD 2 when you can multi a druid with a bard).
Cernd fills that role perfectly; he rolled an 80, but put 18 in wis, and is therefore hampered in melee due to low str and dex. So, he gets max human bonus spells from wisdom, (but no animal horde, again, because no druid does) and once he is done casting, he can change into a werewolf, with 19 str, 16 dex, rather high natural AC, +20% faster movement rate and 2 APR. That is a decent fighter. It is NOT a dwarven defender - but if it was, why would anyone ever play fighter? An (unbuffed) cleric/druid was never meant to be head to head comparable to a true fighter - again, why then would anyone play fighter? Cernd does what he is supposed to do, and his kit does it good. And once you get greater werewolf,..
I get the feeling a lot of folks just rejects Cernd out of hand, without actually testing him out, to see what he can do. So, give him another chance, and be positively surprised.
And oh yeah, Cernd is arguably the worst kit in the entire game, (and certainly the worst Druid kit).
Why does everyone keep saying that?
Most druid spells have a casting time of like 7-9. Even entangle, which is supposed to stop enemies in their tracks, have a casting of 4, which means a faster moving unit will reach you by the time you finish casting the spell. Defeating those ogres as solo in Black Pits sure involved a lot of running...
I would say, obviously, the role intended for a druid is to send in his wall of summoned and charmed animals, while standing behind them and buffing etc to soften up the opponents, then shapeshift and engage them in melee. Which is why level 1 and 2 spells are such an enigma, druids should get shitty summons that last 8 hours or something. Kind of like a staff of monsters except instead you summon animals and they last forever but have a casting time of 9; thus, a druid is always accompanied by a horde of low level, easy killable creatures, that with their mere presence none the less buys the druid time to cast his spells. And lo and behold, all druids you meet in the game that you need to kill are accompanied either by many low level critters, or a few strong ones.
So, the creature wall (perhaps also plus ranger bodyguards) distract the enemy, while the druid call down lightning on their sorry asses, and once the creature wall fails, the druid shapeshfts into a fighter-type creature that (while obviously cannot compete with a 0 THACO +6 bastard sword of unfair advantage 250 HP -10 AC dwarven defender, none-the-less) is a decent fighter that can take down several enemes by himself, especially after his spells and animal wall first have softened them up.
You see, the finer point of shapeshifting is that str & dex are non-essential while casting spells, so a druid that rolls an 84 or whatever can beef his charisma, wisdom, constitution and intelligence (which, admittingly, is not really useful for anything... except it is in IWD 2 when you can multi a druid with a bard).
Cernd fills that role perfectly; he rolled an 80, but put 18 in wis, and is therefore hampered in melee due to low str and dex. So, he gets max human bonus spells from wisdom, (but no animal horde, again, because no druid does) and once he is done casting, he can change into a werewolf, with 19 str, 16 dex, rather high natural AC, +20% faster movement rate and 2 APR. That is a decent fighter. It is NOT a dwarven defender - but if it was, why would anyone ever play fighter? An (unbuffed) cleric/druid was never meant to be head to head comparable to a true fighter - again, why then would anyone play fighter? Cernd does what he is supposed to do, and his kit does it good. And once you get greater werewolf,..
I get the feeling a lot of folks just rejects Cernd out of hand, without actually testing him out, to see what he can do. So, give him another chance, and be positively surprised.
I actually like using Cernd, as long as one of the Shapeshifting-paw mods are installed. Otherwise, taking a round to swap in and out of that form when I REALLY need a certain spell is kinda... not good. @SomeSort nailed it pretty perfectly, that Druids are closer to Mages, and being locked out of casting for a round can be life or death. Also, the Werewolf Shapeshift AC kind of really sucks in BG2; you need at least like -8 AC to do anything, and Mazzy with a -17 AC in the Underdark was STILL getting hit by non-critical hits. Granted, you'll have the Greater Werewolf form then, but outside of Ironskins a Shapeshifter's a fragile glass cannon, and more importantly a non-casting fragile glass cannon. I really do want to like Shapeshifters, but having free summons without giving up spellcasting (Totemic) and straight-up extra spells including Web, Chaos, and Improved Invisibility (Avenger) is simply... better.
Go play with the Faiths and Powers mod, it offers so many more options and restrictions that blur the lines between clerics and druids. My favourite cleric kit, the Doommaster of Beshaba, is BAD-ASS - but cannot use healing spells... time to re-think party comp.
If you are running out of defensive with a tank-oriented Mage, my guess would be you should simply change your setup and/or strategy for that particular fight.
See, I don't like resting every fight.
Again, the topic is proving to just have too many variables.
Again, the topic is proving to just have too many variables.
That's true for ANY discussion, really, as this game is so highly configurable. Still there is merit in discussing things on a somewhat neutral ground to provide information that people can then use and adapt based on their particular preferences (which we obviously can't guess at and would not be feasible to include in most discussions).
If you don't like resting often, make your choices accordingly. That's perfectly fine, and completely reasonable. Still, that doesn't mean you should categorically exclude resting in the discussion since it's an integral part of the game and other people may very well have no scruples whatsoever with resting every second step (I certainly don't).
I actually like using Cernd, as long as one of the Shapeshifting-paw mods are installed. Otherwise, taking a round to swap in and out of that form when I REALLY need a certain spell is kinda... not good. @SomeSort nailed it pretty perfectly, that Druids are closer to Mages, and being locked out of casting for a round can be life or death. Also, the Werewolf Shapeshift AC kind of really sucks in BG2; you need at least like -8 AC to do anything, and Mazzy with a -17 AC in the Underdark was STILL getting hit by non-critical hits. Granted, you'll have the Greater Werewolf form then, but outside of Ironskins a Shapeshifter's a fragile glass cannon, and more importantly a non-casting fragile glass cannon. I really do want to like Shapeshifters, but having free summons without giving up spellcasting (Totemic) and straight-up extra spells including Web, Chaos, and Improved Invisibility (Avenger) is simply... better.
Are we talking vanilla BG2 here? I am guessing not...
Keeping a first line of 3 chars, +-1 for backing in and out, and potions of extra healing is a tactic valid for most any encounter in vanilla. Mods shouldnt count when you do these calculations, because that is like moving a target a further 100 m back, and claiming a longbow is useless since it cant hit the mark now.
Edit: In fact, fairly sure about the mods part. -10 AC is supposed to be the cap in SoA...
There is something silly, I think, about modding your gear and class kits to exceed the limits set by the developers, then complain about how easy the game is, then install a mod that makes the enemies harder to kill... and THEN complain about the classes that were shortchanged due to the class-specific mods and gears.
Please explain how magic resistance is a debuff? I don't really use that spell much so I don't get it's utility as such.
Since the spell Magic Resistance sets the target's MR to a specific value, it functions as an effective debuff if cast on a target with a natural MR higher than that value.
And oh yeah, Cernd is arguably the worst kit in the entire game, (and certainly the worst Druid kit).
Why does everyone keep saying that?
Most druid spells have a casting time of like 7-9. Even entangle, which is supposed to stop enemies in their tracks, have a casting of 4, which means a faster moving unit will reach you by the time you finish casting the spell. Defeating those ogres as solo in Black Pits sure involved a lot of running...
I would say, obviously, the role intended for a druid is to send in his wall of summoned and charmed animals, while standing behind them and buffing etc to soften up the opponents, then shapeshift and engage them in melee. Which is why level 1 and 2 spells are such an enigma, druids should get shitty summons that last 8 hours or something. Kind of like a staff of monsters except instead you summon animals and they last forever but have a casting time of 9; thus, a druid is always accompanied by a horde of low level, easy killable creatures, that with their mere presence none the less buys the druid time to cast his spells. And lo and behold, all druids you meet in the game that you need to kill are accompanied either by many low level critters, or a few strong ones.
So, the creature wall (perhaps also plus ranger bodyguards) distract the enemy, while the druid call down lightning on their sorry asses, and once the creature wall fails, the druid shapeshfts into a fighter-type creature that (while obviously cannot compete with a 0 THACO +6 bastard sword of unfair advantage 250 HP -10 AC dwarven defender, none-the-less) is a decent fighter that can take down several enemes by himself, especially after his spells and animal wall first have softened them up.
You see, the finer point of shapeshifting is that str & dex are non-essential while casting spells, so a druid that rolls an 84 or whatever can beef his charisma, wisdom, constitution and intelligence (which, admittingly, is not really useful for anything... except it is in IWD 2 when you can multi a druid with a bard).
Cernd fills that role perfectly; he rolled an 80, but put 18 in wis, and is therefore hampered in melee due to low str and dex. So, he gets max human bonus spells from wisdom, (but no animal horde, again, because no druid does) and once he is done casting, he can change into a werewolf, with 19 str, 16 dex, rather high natural AC, +20% faster movement rate and 2 APR. That is a decent fighter. It is NOT a dwarven defender - but if it was, why would anyone ever play fighter? An (unbuffed) cleric/druid was never meant to be head to head comparable to a true fighter - again, why then would anyone play fighter? Cernd does what he is supposed to do, and his kit does it good. And once you get greater werewolf,..
I get the feeling a lot of folks just rejects Cernd out of hand, without actually testing him out, to see what he can do. So, give him another chance, and be positively surprised.
I liked the "+6 Bastard Sword of Unfair Advantage".
Anyway, you think the role of a Druid is to send in a horde of summons and then provide a bit of melee support. That's certainly one very viable way to play a Druid, but in that case, the Totemic Druid will totally outclass the Shapeshifter. More and better summons, the ability to recast them at will, and with Belm + Blackblood or something they can dish out more damage than a Shapeshifter, anyway, plus the ability to upgrade his weapons as the saga goes on while the Shapeshifter caps out at level 13. Or give him Impaler or Staff of the Ram for massive damage over top of his summons. Greater Werewolf's single biggest advantage, IMO, is the insane AC it can get pretty early and easily, and that advantage is kind of pointless if you have summons soaking all the attacks, anyway.
Another possible role for the Druid is a full-time caster, in which case Shapeshifters are Druids locked out of armor for no benefit, since you can't cast while shifted. Avenger beats the pants off of Shapeshifter as a caster druid for Web alone, and Chromatic Orb, Chaos, and Improved Invisibility ain't chump change, either.
Shapeshift is powerful at low levels, and Greater Werewolf is well-balanced for when you get it, ("when you get it" = 750k XP). The problem is it doesn't get any better from there to the end of the saga, so that's another up to 7.25m XP without an upgrade to your signature ability, and meanwhile the "no armor" penalty gets more and more pronounced as better armors come down the pike.
It's not that Shapeshifters are unplayable. They're not. I actually use Cernd a fair bit-- as the only single-classed druid, he's really your only choice if you want a Druid caster. I've got a fun game going right now that's me (Dwarven Defender), Jan, and Cernd; the three-man team levels like crazy, which overcomes Jan's slower arcane progression and positively zooms Cernd to that key level 15 breakpoint where all that tasty druid goodness unlocks. Jahiera can't hit it until 6m experience, which is exactly my same complaint about Aerie-- the multi is good on paper, but doesn't really hit its stride until ToB is almost over.
It's just that Shapeshifters are unambiguously the worst Druid kit. You're trading armor for a low-level quality of life improvement, but Avenger (Web!) and Totemic Druid (Spirit Animals!) get better low-level quality of life improvements that remain far more relevant for far longer, and give up far less in the process.
I use Cernd because I like Druids. But even ignoring his total garbage stats, he'd be a *lot* better if he were a Totemic Druid or Avenger.
Please explain how magic resistance is a debuff? I don't really use that spell much so I don't get it's utility as such.
Since the spell Magic Resistance sets the target's MR to a specific value, it functions as an effective debuff if cast on a target with a natural MR higher than that value.
Also, since it's categorized as a buff, it's not subject to the target's own magic resistance.
Cast Magic Resistance on Firkraag from a level 10 Cleric and his MR drops from ~65% or whatever it is to begin with all the way down to 20%. Cheesy.
The shapeshifter is fine. If you need the ac, just cast bark skin. If you need summons just go with bears, fire elementals and the like. The Wolf forms are still good late game.
Now, all of this is compensated, of course, by nymphs, whose healing spell is so good, you actually do bother to use it even during a fight, not just in between - note that the nymph actually use YOUR caster level for mass cure (at least I think they do, from my own observations), so a ten level druid with 18 wis gets a total healing power of ((4 x 11-18 HP) x # wounded party members). Also, please to be noted that mass cure is actually a fifth level spell, so you get a fifth level spell at level four, + some hold persons and charms and the like + some minor damage soaking. Unfortunately, nymphs in BGEE are unruly as hell. No matter what you tell them to do, they will do whatever they feel like, which, for reasons I cannot comprehend, is to engage succesfully held creatures in a kissing session. I seem to remember that before EE, nymphs were much easier to control (or maybe it is just a black pits thing, just like charm and dominate etc sometimes glitches and you immediately lose control even though they did not succeed their saving throw). In either case, the nymph AI needs to be patched to hell and back again, because their current unrulyness is a major cause of aggravation, the kind that would have made me throw my NES-controller in the floor, if I were younger and BGee was for the NES.
Couple of things here.
Nymphs use their own caster level for spells (they are level 5).
Nymphs (as of 2.0) are now way more willing to let you cast a spell of your choosing (as well as telling them where to walk around) than they were in the original BG2. Like way more. In the original BG2 even if you chose a spell and told them to cast it they would almost always cancel casting the spell midway (making them lose the spell). They also would basically refuse to move at all if there was an enemy nearby. Not saying they are perfect now, but make sure you are running the latest EE version because the difference is night and day.
I'd it fills a different roll than either, but is roughly equivalent in overall usefullness.
What role would you say the shapeshifter fills?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, I'm asking for insights. I've taken Cernd plenty of times, and every time I eventually wind up playing him like a crappy Avenger. His Greater Werewolf form is very solid when he first gets it, but quickly falls by the wayside. It doesn't regenerate, it deals meh damage (to the enemies that aren't immune to its weapons) with no on-hit effects, when it can hit in the first place with its crummy THACO.
It has great armor class, better than you'll easily be able to get at that point, but eventually AC becomes less important, and tanking requires giving up spellcasting. Since you only ever get one Greater Werewolf shift, you can't drop out to refresh your druid spells and then go back into tank mode.
It's just unfathomable to me that the kit abilities don't scale past level 13. What kind of ability could you get that's balanced for 750,000 XP that is also still relevant in Throne of Bhaal? In my experience with him, Greater Werewolf is already on life support by the Underdark.
@SomeSort Shapeshifter is in a weird place for a single class. I'd say its closest analogue is a dual class Fighter>Druid as its role changes depending on the stage of the game. In BG1, the werewolf form is sufficient to carry you as a fighter type without much fuss, and remains very useful to early SoA.
Once you hit greater werewolf form, you can almost coast on it until Underdark. Greater werewolf is still useful here but you will definitely want to start fights as a spellcaster then transition to a backup fighter.
When you reach ToB, you shift to full time caster. Your spells and casting ability are still equal to vanilla druid and the other kits at this stage. Its a weird hybrid that morphs the characters role throughout the trilogy and ends up alongside the other druid kits and casters anyway. Its kind of a reverse of the standard caster levelling. You have an easy early game that becomes an average lategame.
First buff and debuff at the start of the fight, then use the normal wolf form to kill the cannon fodder the AI sends at you. Shift back when they are dead so you can again cast spells. Let your other warriors fight the main foes. Only shift to greater werewolf when there is only tough fodder. Pick off foes with bad AC before taking well defended foes, so mages, druids, rogues. It is perfectly valid to buff yourself to do that. There is no point to being a full time warrior or a full time caster, because then you should be either a real warrior class or one of the other druid kits.
There is no point to being a full time warrior or a full time caster, because then you should be either a real warrior class or one of the other druid kits.
Or be an F/D hybrid that can do both at the same time instead of shifting from one to the other, and actually scales with weapons.
Comments
On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure how "druid-y" spells like Negative Plane Protection, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Magic Resistance, or Shield of the Archons really are. Take those away and you take away the Druid's ability to fill that "divine caster" role entirely.
...I got nothing.
Just follow my flawless chain of logic:
Combat is like a dance.
Shamans can dance.
Clerics & Druids cannot dance.
Therefore, Clerics and Druids cannot be in combat, but Shamans can.
QED, E pluribus unum, and [insert faux Latin phrase here].
Deal with it.
But HOW exactly does someone get blinded by SEEing something they CAN'T SEE?
I think you have punched the Munchkin card a little hard here.
Mordenk's and Bard Song have both been patched to break invisibility now. I'm not sure if Nature's Beauty has or not, (I'm on iPad, so still stuck on 1.3). Beyond Nature's Beauty, there are several other interesting cases. Should Turn Undead break invisibility, for instance? I'd definitely consider it an offensive action.
Even if Nature's Beauty has been patched, it's totally worth it for the no-save permablind, "doesn't break invisibility" is just icing. (You know, since once the enemy is blinded it doesn't matter a whole ton whether you're still invisible or not.)
As for how exactly it works from an in-universe standpoint, the caster transforms from an invisible humanoid to a visible nymph and then back again. Invisibility's spell description says casters can't manipulate the environment (although it lies; you can definitely disarm traps and open doors without breaking invisibility), and it says you can't take any offensive action, but I suppose "becoming super-duper-duper beautiful" could be seen as a non-offensive action.
At the end of the day, like all bizarre/unintended spell combinations, it's user's choice whether to take advantage or not. Invisibility can be manually ended at any time by talking to yourself if that particular combination seems to cheesy.
Shield of the Archons and Death Ward are situationally tremendously useful, though both can be trumped by a timely casting of Power Word: Reload. Negative Plane Protection with its 5 round duration is far more hassle than it's worth, IMO. Magic Resistance is really far more notable for its cheesiness as a debuff than its usefulness as a buff.
Chaotic Commands, however, is really such a tremendous spell and a major quality-of-life improvement. It lasts one turn per level, which is basically forever, and it nullifies a huge swath of the most annoying status effects in the game. It's basically a Shield of Harmony that's usable by anyone, (or, as the case may be, everyone). You can solo the game with a sorcerer, so you can obviously live without it entirely if you want, but it's a great spell. It's really one of the biggest selling points of the divine casters, in my opinion.
(Also, if you keep Wondrous Recall memorized, you don't even have to keep a Chaotic Commands handy at all times. If you see an enemy who calls for it-- a Yuan-Ti Mage, an Umber Hulk, a Mind Flayer, etc-- you can always erase a 5th-level spell slot, replace it with Chaotic Commands, and then cast Wondrous Recall. Voila, you're basically a low-budget divine sorcerer.)
Most druid spells have a casting time of like 7-9. Even entangle, which is supposed to stop enemies in their tracks, have a casting of 4, which means a faster moving unit will reach you by the time you finish casting the spell. Defeating those ogres as solo in Black Pits sure involved a lot of running...
I would say, obviously, the role intended for a druid is to send in his wall of summoned and charmed animals, while standing behind them and buffing etc to soften up the opponents, then shapeshift and engage them in melee. Which is why level 1 and 2 spells are such an enigma, druids should get shitty summons that last 8 hours or something. Kind of like a staff of monsters except instead you summon animals and they last forever but have a casting time of 9; thus, a druid is always accompanied by a horde of low level, easy killable creatures, that with their mere presence none the less buys the druid time to cast his spells. And lo and behold, all druids you meet in the game that you need to kill are accompanied either by many low level critters, or a few strong ones.
So, the creature wall (perhaps also plus ranger bodyguards) distract the enemy, while the druid call down lightning on their sorry asses, and once the creature wall fails, the druid shapeshfts into a fighter-type creature that (while obviously cannot compete with a 0 THACO +6 bastard sword of unfair advantage 250 HP -10 AC dwarven defender, none-the-less) is a decent fighter that can take down several enemes by himself, especially after his spells and animal wall first have softened them up.
You see, the finer point of shapeshifting is that str & dex are non-essential while casting spells, so a druid that rolls an 84 or whatever can beef his charisma, wisdom, constitution and intelligence (which, admittingly, is not really useful for anything... except it is in IWD 2 when you can multi a druid with a bard).
Cernd fills that role perfectly; he rolled an 80, but put 18 in wis, and is therefore hampered in melee due to low str and dex. So, he gets max human bonus spells from wisdom, (but no animal horde, again, because no druid does) and once he is done casting, he can change into a werewolf, with 19 str, 16 dex, rather high natural AC, +20% faster movement rate and 2 APR. That is a decent fighter. It is NOT a dwarven defender - but if it was, why would anyone ever play fighter? An (unbuffed) cleric/druid was never meant to be head to head comparable to a true fighter - again, why then would anyone play fighter? Cernd does what he is supposed to do, and his kit does it good. And once you get greater werewolf,..
I get the feeling a lot of folks just rejects Cernd out of hand, without actually testing him out, to see what he can do. So, give him another chance, and be positively surprised.
Again, the topic is proving to just have too many variables.
If you don't like resting often, make your choices accordingly. That's perfectly fine, and completely reasonable. Still, that doesn't mean you should categorically exclude resting in the discussion since it's an integral part of the game and other people may very well have no scruples whatsoever with resting every second step (I certainly don't).
Keeping a first line of 3 chars, +-1 for backing in and out, and potions of extra healing is a tactic valid for most any encounter in vanilla. Mods shouldnt count when you do these calculations, because that is like moving a target a further 100 m back, and claiming a longbow is useless since it cant hit the mark now.
Edit: In fact, fairly sure about the mods part. -10 AC is supposed to be the cap in SoA...
There is something silly, I think, about modding your gear and class kits to exceed the limits set by the developers, then complain about how easy the game is, then install a mod that makes the enemies harder to kill... and THEN complain about the classes that were shortchanged due to the class-specific mods and gears.
Anyway, you think the role of a Druid is to send in a horde of summons and then provide a bit of melee support. That's certainly one very viable way to play a Druid, but in that case, the Totemic Druid will totally outclass the Shapeshifter. More and better summons, the ability to recast them at will, and with Belm + Blackblood or something they can dish out more damage than a Shapeshifter, anyway, plus the ability to upgrade his weapons as the saga goes on while the Shapeshifter caps out at level 13. Or give him Impaler or Staff of the Ram for massive damage over top of his summons. Greater Werewolf's single biggest advantage, IMO, is the insane AC it can get pretty early and easily, and that advantage is kind of pointless if you have summons soaking all the attacks, anyway.
Another possible role for the Druid is a full-time caster, in which case Shapeshifters are Druids locked out of armor for no benefit, since you can't cast while shifted. Avenger beats the pants off of Shapeshifter as a caster druid for Web alone, and Chromatic Orb, Chaos, and Improved Invisibility ain't chump change, either.
Shapeshift is powerful at low levels, and Greater Werewolf is well-balanced for when you get it, ("when you get it" = 750k XP). The problem is it doesn't get any better from there to the end of the saga, so that's another up to 7.25m XP without an upgrade to your signature ability, and meanwhile the "no armor" penalty gets more and more pronounced as better armors come down the pike.
It's not that Shapeshifters are unplayable. They're not. I actually use Cernd a fair bit-- as the only single-classed druid, he's really your only choice if you want a Druid caster. I've got a fun game going right now that's me (Dwarven Defender), Jan, and Cernd; the three-man team levels like crazy, which overcomes Jan's slower arcane progression and positively zooms Cernd to that key level 15 breakpoint where all that tasty druid goodness unlocks. Jahiera can't hit it until 6m experience, which is exactly my same complaint about Aerie-- the multi is good on paper, but doesn't really hit its stride until ToB is almost over.
It's just that Shapeshifters are unambiguously the worst Druid kit. You're trading armor for a low-level quality of life improvement, but Avenger (Web!) and Totemic Druid (Spirit Animals!) get better low-level quality of life improvements that remain far more relevant for far longer, and give up far less in the process.
I use Cernd because I like Druids. But even ignoring his total garbage stats, he'd be a *lot* better if he were a Totemic Druid or Avenger.
Cast Magic Resistance on Firkraag from a level 10 Cleric and his MR drops from ~65% or whatever it is to begin with all the way down to 20%. Cheesy.
If you need the ac, just cast bark skin.
If you need summons just go with bears, fire elementals and the like. The Wolf forms are still good late game.
But NO!
Restartitis won't get the best of this time. I swear my F/T will make it to the end of ToB. Someday...
Nymphs use their own caster level for spells (they are level 5).
Nymphs (as of 2.0) are now way more willing to let you cast a spell of your choosing (as well as telling them where to walk around) than they were in the original BG2. Like way more. In the original BG2 even if you chose a spell and told them to cast it they would almost always cancel casting the spell midway (making them lose the spell). They also would basically refuse to move at all if there was an enemy nearby. Not saying they are perfect now, but make sure you are running the latest EE version because the difference is night and day.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, I'm asking for insights. I've taken Cernd plenty of times, and every time I eventually wind up playing him like a crappy Avenger. His Greater Werewolf form is very solid when he first gets it, but quickly falls by the wayside. It doesn't regenerate, it deals meh damage (to the enemies that aren't immune to its weapons) with no on-hit effects, when it can hit in the first place with its crummy THACO.
It has great armor class, better than you'll easily be able to get at that point, but eventually AC becomes less important, and tanking requires giving up spellcasting. Since you only ever get one Greater Werewolf shift, you can't drop out to refresh your druid spells and then go back into tank mode.
It's just unfathomable to me that the kit abilities don't scale past level 13. What kind of ability could you get that's balanced for 750,000 XP that is also still relevant in Throne of Bhaal? In my experience with him, Greater Werewolf is already on life support by the Underdark.
Once you hit greater werewolf form, you can almost coast on it until Underdark. Greater werewolf is still useful here but you will definitely want to start fights as a spellcaster then transition to a backup fighter.
When you reach ToB, you shift to full time caster. Your spells and casting ability are still equal to vanilla druid and the other kits at this stage. Its a weird hybrid that morphs the characters role throughout the trilogy and ends up alongside the other druid kits and casters anyway. Its kind of a reverse of the standard caster levelling. You have an easy early game that becomes an average lategame.
Pick off foes with bad AC before taking well defended foes, so mages, druids, rogues. It is perfectly valid to buff yourself to do that.
There is no point to being a full time warrior or a full time caster, because then you should be either a real warrior class or one of the other druid kits.