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Elves get +1 to hit with 2-handed swords

MatteoTuriniMatteoTurini Member Posts: 105
edited July 2013 in Fixed
I tried to search for this on the forum, but I couldn't find a thread about it. If it's already been reported or dealt with, sorry!

I've noticed this behaviour in vanilla BG1 when I started playing it 12 years or so ago. I don't know if any mod addresses it.

CURRENT BEHAVIOUR: elves receive a +1 bonus to hit when using 2 handed swords.

DESIRED BEHAVIOUR: elves should not receive the bonus; they should (as for pen and paper rules) only receive it when using long swords, short swords and bows.
Post edited by Balquo on
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Comments

  • MatteoTuriniMatteoTurini Member Posts: 105
    edited November 2012
    Actually, I thought only about BG1, when writing this report, but I remember now that BG:EE will use BG2's engine. So I loaded it up, and it seems that the bonus to hit is applied to a wider range of swords than in pnp (I've tried with 2 handed, katana, long and short).

    I may understand kantanas and other 1-handed swords (though I'm not sure the bonus is used as intended, in this case), but I think 2-handed swords are not what the pnp designers had in mind.
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited November 2012
    From 2E handbook:

    "When employing a bow of any sort other than a crossbow, or when using a short or long sword, elves gain a bonus of +1 to their attack rolls".

    That sounds like the +1 bonus for swords should only be applied to long swords and short swords, as identified per their proficiency. Scimitars/Katanas/etc. should not receive this bonus.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Well that would change my planned two-handed sword wielding fighter/mage build for BGEE... But it does sound like changing the sword bonus to just short and long swords (although I can see a case for other one-handed swords like scimitars and katanas too) may be more correct
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited November 2012
    Even though Scimitars and Katanas are swords, and they are long pieces of steel, they are not native to Elves so the bonus should not apply.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    bigdogchris said:

    Even though Scimitars and Katanas are swords, and they are long pieces of steel, they are not native to Elves so the bonus should not apply.

    I'm slightly loathe to say it (as it does nerf elves a bit, and I like to play elves...), but you're probably correct

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    If we go strictly by 2nd Edition rules, the bonus should apply only to long and short swords and bows as well.
  • WybranWybran Member Posts: 162
    I can't even imagine elves wielding greatsword to begin with. Sometimes i think that game creators don't know what were 2-handed swords used for or how strong and big someone had to be in order to use it efficiently.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Wybran

    Elves don't get any penalties to their strength stat, there's no reason for them not to be able to use greatswords.
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,644
    Wybran said:

    I can't even imagine elves wielding greatsword to begin with. Sometimes i think that game creators don't know what were 2-handed swords used for or how strong and big someone had to be in order to use it efficiently.

    Even waaaaaaay back in AD&D 1st Edition when they had Strength Min/Maxes for race, Elves had a max of 18/75. That's certainly strong enough to wield a two-handed sword. Hell, most NPC humans who wield them probably have about a 15 or 16 at most.

  • mister_ennuimister_ennui Member Posts: 98
    edited November 2012
    In my opinion the bonus should be changed so that it is conistent with pen and paper 2E AD&D.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    @Tanthalas
    I've got to agree. A sword is a bladed weapon (edged weapon) used primarily for cutting or thrusting. So, every weapon consisting of the blade and the hilt, counts as a sword. The mechanic of battle with different types of swords is more or less simular. At least, compared with club weapons or axes. Thus, elves can have the bonus with 2-handed swords, katanas, scimitars etc.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    bengoshi said:

    @Tanthalas
    I've got to agree. A sword is a bladed weapon (edged weapon) used primarily for cutting or thrusting. So, every weapon consisting of the blade and the hilt, counts as a sword. The mechanic of battle with different types of swords is more or less simular. At least, compared with club weapons or axes. Thus, elves can have the bonus with 2-handed swords, katanas, scimitars etc.

    I don't have any experience wielding any kind of sword, but to me it seems like using a weapon with 2 hands (sword or otherwise) would be significantly different than using a weapon with one hand, both because of the difference in size and weight, as well as the different motions required for both. I would guess that swinging a one-handed axe would almost have more in common with a one-handed sword than would a greatsword, but of course this is pure speculation on my part.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    Any type of sword can't cut or crush steel plate and axes can. That's the difference.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    edited November 2012
    If we were going to be realistic, your character would hardly be able to lern how to handle two different kinds ofsword in the short time the adventure lasts.

    The only thing a long sword, a katana, a scimitar and a kopesh for instance have in common is that they are swords. They require different techniques, have different handling, mass center, length and weight. Try to handle a long sword as you do a short and you're more likely to hurt yourself than your opponent. Learning a new weapon requires quite some time of practice.

    So as I said earlier if we go by the rules, an elf gets the bonus only with long and short swords, there really is no way that the bonus would apply to other swords. This reflects the fact that those are cultural weapons for an elf and that by the time he is an adult, around 110 years old, he has some 40 years of practice with those weapons.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    Elves could practice in not only short and long swords. I'll try to give the explanation for their abilities in katanas.
    The vast human empire of Shou Lung is undoubtedly the most powerful nation on the face of Abeir-Toril. While this nation controls the largest military spelljammer fleet in Realmspace, those vessels are employed in a strictly defensive role, rooting out pirates and acting as a counter to the spelljammer fleets of Wa and the Elven Imperial Fleet.
    Due to these reasons, many elves could understand how to attack and defend with katanas - they could take them from killed enemies, even start elven dojos. Why not?

    And what reason could prevent Elves from using two-handed swords?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited November 2012
    @bengoshi

    The example you provided would just mean that those elves would start with pips in Katana proficiency.

    The THAC0 bonus all elves receive when using Long swords, short swords and bows is supposed to emulate the fact that all elves receive basic training with those weapons (though admittedly, this causes some other inconsistencies, because they probably should start with a free proficiency in all those weapons so they never have penalties when wielding them, IWD2 handled it better).
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    bengoshi said:

    Elves could practice in not only short and long swords. I'll try to give the explanation for their abilities in katanas.
    The vast human empire of Shou Lung is undoubtedly the most powerful nation on the face of Abeir-Toril. While this nation controls the largest military spelljammer fleet in Realmspace, those vessels are employed in a strictly defensive role, rooting out pirates and acting as a counter to the spelljammer fleets of Wa and the Elven Imperial Fleet.
    Due to these reasons, many elves could understand how to attack and defend with katanas - they could take them from killed enemies, even start elven dojos. Why not?

    And what reason could prevent Elves from using two-handed swords?

    Nothing. I never said they can't. I only explained why they start with a bonus in long and shortsword and why that wouldn't apply to other swords.
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited November 2012
    @bengoshi

    If the designers of D&D felt that Elves should get a bonus to all sword types, why did they not just say swords? The rules specifically say "long sword" and "short sword", not just "swords".

    The way you fight with a scimitar and katanas are completely different than how you fight with a long sword or short sword. The similarities between scimitar/katanas and a long/short swords is that they are long pieces of sharp metal, that's it.

    Long swords and short swords are native to Elves. They spent their history as a species using them, thus the bonus. The other two sword types do not apply.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Is anyone able to confirm yet what restrictions (or not) will actually be implemented in BGEE for the elf +1THAC0 bonus with swords?
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    The BG:EE manual states -1 THACO for longswords and bows... Is this a confirmation? Have elves now lost shortsword bonus as well?
  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,746
    @Anduin I believe that a mistake in the description as they have their shortsword bonus.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    The truth is that we weren't even aware that elves got that THAC0 bonus with all swords when the manual was finalized.
  • Jean_LucJean_Luc Member Posts: 228
    One might have a point when saying that all 1-handed swords are used similarly (though that's probably not true) so that elves are justified having an attack bonus with all the different 1-handed blades but a zwei-hander is definitely a category of its own and its use and purpose are very, very different than that of a standard "sword" despite it being one.
  • MatteoTuriniMatteoTurini Member Posts: 105
    edited November 2012
    @Tanthalas During the game, do elves still receive the bonus with every kind of sword, at the moment? If so, is there any chance this will be changed according to pen&paper rules, in the future?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @MatteoTurini

    Its possible, but I don't know when.
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 636
    To be completely honest, many weapons in D&D makes no sense. A longsword, though having sharp edges, is actually primarily used as a stabbing weapon, just like a shortsword. The fact that it is categorized as slashing, is quite silly. Even a chainmail would likely stop a slash from a longsword.. but if you thrust with the "pointy end", it's very likely to pierce through. A shortsword works the same way.

    This is what -really- separates these two swords from other blades like Katanas and Scimitars, they are curved blades specifically made for slashing and are supreme compared to a longsword in this regard. The curved edge of it lets you apply a slash that'll keep cutting as you draw the blade and can lead to dismembering. A straight blade however, would sink as deep into the flesh as the initial impact would drive it and the slashing attack would then be stopped.

    This is a logical answer as to why they gain bonus to Long- and Shortswords and not the others, beyond that of cultural history.
    The fact that Longswords are limited to Slashing damage is really nothing short of stupid. They -can- slash, but were designed, used and excelled as a piercing weapon.
  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,746
    This has now been posted in the beta section and hopefully will get resolved. Don't expect it to be working on release though. I would like to revert it to 2nd Edition rules if I could pick.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    I would prefer all one handed swords. You will make some encounters with elves too easy... Drizzt for example. Presuming it works both ways...
  • LibraLeFourbeLibraLeFourbe Member Posts: 6
    Elves have +1 Thac0 bonus with all types of swords (Short sword, Simitar, Ninjato...) and not only with long swords.
  • hook71hook71 Member, Developer Posts: 582
    This is discussed here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6486/elves-get-1-to-hit-with-2-handed-swords
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