You know, Viconia sure doesn't strike me as wise/smart as her character sheet say she is. She makes bad plans resulting in getting caught, is duped, and never offers much insight or info.
You know, Viconia sure doesn't strike me as wise/smart as her character sheet say she is. She makes bad plans resulting in getting caught, is duped, and never offers much insight or info.
It's an act to get you to let your guard down. She worships the goddess of deception, after all.
You know, Viconia sure doesn't strike me as wise/smart as her character sheet say she is. She makes bad plans resulting in getting caught, is duped, and never offers much insight or info.
It's an act to get you to let your guard down. She worships the goddess of deception, after all.
Could be actually, and its 100% possible the story about the farming family is BS to manipulate you. She's never struck me as very lovable really.
You know, Viconia sure doesn't strike me as wise/smart as her character sheet say she is. She makes bad plans resulting in getting caught, is duped, and never offers much insight or info.
Maybe that could have something to do with surface customs being so foreign and bizarre to her.
You know, Viconia sure doesn't strike me as wise/smart as her character sheet say she is. She makes bad plans resulting in getting caught, is duped, and never offers much insight or info.
Maybe that could have something to do with surface customs being so foreign and bizarre to her.
I dunno, according to her story, she was too trusting of humans, not Drow behaviour at all!
Strength might be one of the easiest in that case. It is more or less just about physical power. Can somebody be strong although he cares about books most of the time? Sure, why not. Maybe he visits bars in his spare time and has a brawl on a regular basis. Or he is just a guy with a massive body like an orc or something.
Constitution on the other hand is much more complex than you might think at first sight. It has a mental component. You can't just resist things physically but you can also do so mentally. A moderate stat value could mean you're either mentally hard and physically weak or vice versa. Or maybe you're just the average guy. "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" is not just lyrics of a famous song.
Or what about charisma? Does it really mean, peopla "like" you? What about someone, that people fear? He or she could be crazy maybe, but what about being charismatic? Not possible? I doubt it. Charismatic people are leader types of some kind. They can be manipulative or just convincing.
This doesn't mean all stats are just fine in Baldur's Gate, but it might be hard to compare charactres just with numbers. One 9 can be different than another 9 if it comes to personality or thing having gone through. The relative difference is more important I guess with 10-11 being the average ( [18+3] / 2 = 10,5).
Looking at this long list leads to the question which of the vanilla NPCs have adequate stats? Or levels. While mod added NPCs try hard to be balanced and represent the story and personality of a creature, those of the vanilla ones just seem pretty random. Working around all that is part of the game by now. Try to change it and wait for the shitstorm.
I could be very wrong and the writers may have never even considered stats when creating the characters. In some instances when you RP you kind of have to ignore the strange stats.
The ones that really stand out is Alora charisma, Kivan charisma Xan charisma Viconia strength/con Anomen/Keldorn dexterity (that really makes no sense as dexterity is linked to AC and they are first and foremost fighters handling weapons and stuff) Haer Dalis con 9 (he's planewalker, surely that would suggest having a robust constitution?) Edwin dex Shar teel con
and the others I have mentioned. So I was interested in what other players tended to ignore stat wise when it comes to rp. Of course you can use items when playing, but in your imagination, do you imagine Vic as weak and fragile? Aerie yes, Viconia?
When I first played the games (long long time ago, shortly after they were originally released), I just took them as granted or even intended. You had to find the right items or invest your money to buy them in order to get a party together and well equipped for the challenges. I had the feeling that finding the right mix of equipment and NPC was part of the game. Today, I simply think I interpreted too much, they just made the NPCs from a chr file for which they threw dice and then changed it to a cre.
Your list is fine. Add Dynaheir Dex and Con too high, Cha too low.
And I think you were right back then. And you are right now as well Meaning, stats had nothing to do with the characters, they were pretty random or arranged in a way, that would force you to really work for the perfect party - though items accumulation and changing group composition. Pure mechanical reasons.
Well, this is how I look at this still, to fight the urge change everything manually.
@UnderstandMouseMagic "Sarevok int 17. We see no sign of it at all, overall his plan and the way he carries it out is dumb, really dumb."
You mean BESIDES his flawless manipulation of the Chill, Black Talon, Zhentarim, the Iron Throne, the Dukes of Baldur's Gate, and whoever is in charge of Amn? Not to mention he did all this and managed to keep such a shining reputation that he was voted in as a Duke?
Not to forgot ehhrrm... "framing" you for the murder of his foster father?
Not to mention picking that great pseudonym 'Koveras'. Only pure genius could account for that!
Minsc indeed has low intelligence and wisdom... The stats you are seeing are in fact Boo's, considering Minsc can do nothing without first conferring with his hamster.
...
I admit I do the same before any major purchase with my goldfish...
This isn't so much about the mechanics but how the characters of the NPC which have been broadly established over the years are not reflected by their stats. It's more about RP'ing and how as players we react to how they have been written.
So for instance, Alora, charisma 10. 10? That's the same as Edwin's and Xzar's. To me that makes no sense, it should be far higher. Even if you find her tiresome after a while she is undoubtedly charasmatic. It's how she gets away with being so OTT with the cheerfulness.
Aye, she could have somewhat of a boost. But it's hard for her. People tend to love her or hate her. I could also see it being average because charisma is also one's ability to lead. And her leadership ability does seem to be quite low.
Faldon, wisdom 16. Now to me wisdom is based on gathered knowledge, weighing up the consequences, being able to see the "bigger" picture. Do Faldorn's actions portray somebody with a highish wisdom score?
Yes, her actions do show a highish wisdom score.
* Where dumb, and poor casting, druids attack you on the spot for now fawning over them, Faldorn sees a party of 5-6 armed warriors and goes "I can use you to defeat my greater enemies." That shows high wisdom right there. * BG2 she uses her high charisma and wisdom to take over a very large druid grove. Not poison it. Not murder everyone. But she used the rules to take it over. Sure, she harmed nature, but she was thinking of the "bigger" picture. She needed the power to destroy the greater harm to nature. You might not agree with her, but she had a legit thought process.
Imoen, intelligence 17. It's downright stupid to not use your ability to learn and instead mess around thieving when you grow up in the equivalent of a university. And her strength score is far too low for somebody who has turned to the physical rather than the mental.
She grew up in the equivalent of Princeton's Institute of Advanced Studies. Candlekeep isn't a place where you go to learn how to be a mage. It is a place that mage's pay good money to go for their own research. And then they leave. Sure, she was raised by Gorion...but the bigger influence was Winthrop. As a child she certainly had the ability to be a great mage, but she didn't have the maturity. Only later on after she hits the road, and seeing hundreds of people get killed, does she grow up enough to learn magic. It makes total sense to me.
And for her low strength, she uses her wits and dexterity. She doesn't work out. She didn't train with the watchers. She doesn't fight on the front lines. Why should she be physically strong?
Jaheira and Khalid charisma 15 and 9 respectively. Those should be swapped or at least adjusted. I think sometimes people aren't so keen on Khalid, but I rarely read that people actively dislike him. Whereas Jaheira divides opinion, isn't that where charisma comes in? You have broad appeal.
Again, Charisma shows leadership. Jaheira can certainly take charge. She has a 'command voice.' People may not like her, but she is the kind of person that people listen to. Khalid is a stuttering half-elf who has the tendency to run away. He is not the kind of person you follow into battle. Their Charisma scores make sense to me.
Shar Teel constitution 9. How does that make any sense? She throws herself into fights and surely should have a robust constitution.
Aye, I'd like to see it higher myself. But I rationalize it as her fighting style being about killing the other person first. High strength, high dexterity, dual wielding. She charges in swords swinging and kills you before you can kill her. If you can weather the blows, she's in trouble.
Edwin dexterity 10, constitution 16. So a person who is bookish and uses their hands for their craft has bad dexterity and the constitution of a field worker?
Edwin has bog average dexterity. Seems legit. Edwin is tough. He is able to fight off pain. He is extremely driven and arrogant. He also has been living on the run and on the road for a long time. That seems legit to me.
Xan charisma 16 Kivan charisma 8. Hmmm.......
Ok, I give you Xan. He couldn't lead his way out of a wet paper bag. Kivan though is unpleasant. He doesn't want to be talked to. He is a driven loner. Cha 8 works perfectly for that.
Dorn: Int 10? Wis 15? No. They should be switched. Jaheria: Wis 14. I feel like it should be just a bit higher. 16 would be good. Viconia: Con 8? She survived the Underdark I feel like a 10 is the least they should giver her. Anomen: Str 18/52. As helpful as this has been in the playthroughs I did with him in my party, I feel like this has always been a bit much. 17 would suffice Keldorn: Dex 9? It should be at least 10 Yoshimo: Char 14? He convinces CHARNAME that he is on his side and leads him all the way to Spellhold. Plus he has comedic dialogue and proves himself to be very likable. 15 or 16 would be good.
there is no difference between CON 7 and CON 14 (at least after lvl 9 and/or 10). there is also no difference between CON 16 and CON 18 and higher for all non-fighter classes.
which means imo that CON 9 for Aerie is not that bad but CON 9 for Shar-Teel is a "back to the kitchen, woman!" thing.
Minsc is basicaly telepathically controlled by his pocket mini giant space hamster Boo and he don't need any fecking INT or WIS or CHAR for siheeet, Boo covers all that and more... the bigger they are the harder I hit! Ideal Minsc stats imo
STR 18/00 DEX 18 (always better than 17, but there is no difference between 7 and 14 !! LOL) CON 18 INT 3 (no food for thought for you, evil!!!) WIS 3 CHAR 3
NPCs stats are "wrong" only when really annoying like Shar-Teel, btw. there is a proof IRL that very phisically strong people can have pretty low endurance actually and vice versa - check marathon runners for example. BG is no irl lol but I think Shar-Teel can be the case here and that is why she is so angry, she can swing that TH sword but not for too long. ;pp
Korgan is just right. Keldorn being that clumsy makes sense imo. Ano can't even be a "legal" cleric with his "wisdom". Jaheira is a special case actually - according to her stats she is not very bright but also not that wise either. No suprise why she needs poor Khalid and for what. ;PPP Valygar. Who cares? Mazzy. Who? Xan. Has stoneskin and PFMW. He is OK imo. Edwin. See above. Needs that 16 con for Viccy. Viconia. Rise CON to 15 or 16 and she is ready to go.
all the rest is pretty much more or less all right stat wise
Shar-Teel low Con makes me think of those boxers, who can punch like hell, but are basically dying after third round and/or has shaky chin, like, let's say, Amir Khan (terrible chin). So she is legit for me.
Comments
Strength might be one of the easiest in that case. It is more or less just about physical power. Can somebody be strong although he cares about books most of the time? Sure, why not. Maybe he visits bars in his spare time and has a brawl on a regular basis. Or he is just a guy with a massive body like an orc or something.
Constitution on the other hand is much more complex than you might think at first sight. It has a mental component. You can't just resist things physically but you can also do so mentally. A moderate stat value could mean you're either mentally hard and physically weak or vice versa. Or maybe you're just the average guy. "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" is not just lyrics of a famous song.
Or what about charisma? Does it really mean, peopla "like" you? What about someone, that people fear? He or she could be crazy maybe, but what about being charismatic? Not possible? I doubt it. Charismatic people are leader types of some kind. They can be manipulative or just convincing.
This doesn't mean all stats are just fine in Baldur's Gate, but it might be hard to compare charactres just with numbers. One 9 can be different than another 9 if it comes to personality or thing having gone through. The relative difference is more important I guess with 10-11 being the average ( [18+3] / 2 = 10,5).
Well, this is how I look at this still, to fight the urge change everything manually.
...
I admit I do the same before any major purchase with my goldfish...
This isn't so much about the mechanics but how the characters of the NPC which have been broadly established over the years are not reflected by their stats. It's more about RP'ing and how as players we react to how they have been written.
So for instance, Alora, charisma 10. 10? That's the same as Edwin's and Xzar's. To me that makes no sense, it should be far higher. Even if you find her tiresome after a while she is undoubtedly charasmatic. It's how she gets away with being so OTT with the cheerfulness.
Aye, she could have somewhat of a boost. But it's hard for her. People tend to love her or hate her. I could also see it being average because charisma is also one's ability to lead. And her leadership ability does seem to be quite low.
Faldon, wisdom 16. Now to me wisdom is based on gathered knowledge, weighing up the consequences, being able to see the "bigger" picture. Do Faldorn's actions portray somebody with a highish wisdom score?
Yes, her actions do show a highish wisdom score.
* Where dumb, and poor casting, druids attack you on the spot for now fawning over them, Faldorn sees a party of 5-6 armed warriors and goes "I can use you to defeat my greater enemies." That shows high wisdom right there.
* BG2 she uses her high charisma and wisdom to take over a very large druid grove. Not poison it. Not murder everyone. But she used the rules to take it over. Sure, she harmed nature, but she was thinking of the "bigger" picture. She needed the power to destroy the greater harm to nature. You might not agree with her, but she had a legit thought process.
Imoen, intelligence 17. It's downright stupid to not use your ability to learn and instead mess around thieving when you grow up in the equivalent of a university. And her strength score is far too low for somebody who has turned to the physical rather than the mental.
She grew up in the equivalent of Princeton's Institute of Advanced Studies. Candlekeep isn't a place where you go to learn how to be a mage. It is a place that mage's pay good money to go for their own research. And then they leave. Sure, she was raised by Gorion...but the bigger influence was Winthrop. As a child she certainly had the ability to be a great mage, but she didn't have the maturity. Only later on after she hits the road, and seeing hundreds of people get killed, does she grow up enough to learn magic. It makes total sense to me.
And for her low strength, she uses her wits and dexterity. She doesn't work out. She didn't train with the watchers. She doesn't fight on the front lines. Why should she be physically strong?
Jaheira and Khalid charisma 15 and 9 respectively. Those should be swapped or at least adjusted. I think sometimes people aren't so keen on Khalid, but I rarely read that people actively dislike him. Whereas Jaheira divides opinion, isn't that where charisma comes in? You have broad appeal.
Again, Charisma shows leadership. Jaheira can certainly take charge. She has a 'command voice.' People may not like her, but she is the kind of person that people listen to. Khalid is a stuttering half-elf who has the tendency to run away. He is not the kind of person you follow into battle. Their Charisma scores make sense to me.
Shar Teel constitution 9. How does that make any sense? She throws herself into fights and surely should have a robust constitution.
Aye, I'd like to see it higher myself. But I rationalize it as her fighting style being about killing the other person first. High strength, high dexterity, dual wielding. She charges in swords swinging and kills you before you can kill her. If you can weather the blows, she's in trouble.
Edwin dexterity 10, constitution 16. So a person who is bookish and uses their hands for their craft has bad dexterity and the constitution of a field worker?
Edwin has bog average dexterity. Seems legit.
Edwin is tough. He is able to fight off pain. He is extremely driven and arrogant. He also has been living on the run and on the road for a long time. That seems legit to me.
Xan charisma 16 Kivan charisma 8. Hmmm.......
Ok, I give you Xan. He couldn't lead his way out of a wet paper bag. Kivan though is unpleasant. He doesn't want to be talked to. He is a driven loner. Cha 8 works perfectly for that.
Int 10? Wis 15? No. They should be switched.
Jaheria:
Wis 14. I feel like it should be just a bit higher. 16 would be good.
Viconia:
Con 8? She survived the Underdark I feel like a 10 is the least they should giver her.
Anomen:
Str 18/52. As helpful as this has been in the playthroughs I did with him in my party, I feel like this has always been a bit much. 17 would suffice
Keldorn:
Dex 9? It should be at least 10
Yoshimo:
Char 14? He convinces CHARNAME that he is on his side and leads him all the way to Spellhold. Plus he has comedic dialogue and proves himself to be very likable. 15 or 16 would be good.
there is also no difference between CON 16 and CON 18 and higher for all non-fighter classes.
which means imo that CON 9 for Aerie is not that bad but CON 9 for Shar-Teel is a "back to the kitchen, woman!" thing.
Minsc is basicaly telepathically controlled by his pocket mini giant space hamster Boo and he don't need any fecking INT or WIS or CHAR for siheeet, Boo covers all that and more... the bigger they are the harder I hit! Ideal Minsc stats imo
STR 18/00
DEX 18 (always better than 17, but there is no difference between 7 and 14 !! LOL)
CON 18
INT 3 (no food for thought for you, evil!!!)
WIS 3
CHAR 3
NPCs stats are "wrong" only when really annoying like Shar-Teel, btw. there is a proof IRL that very phisically strong people can have pretty low endurance actually and vice versa - check marathon runners for example. BG is no irl lol but I think Shar-Teel can be the case here and that is why she is so angry, she can swing that TH sword but not for too long. ;pp
Korgan is just right.
Keldorn being that clumsy makes sense imo.
Ano can't even be a "legal" cleric with his "wisdom".
Jaheira is a special case actually - according to her stats she is not very bright but also not that wise either. No suprise why she needs poor Khalid and for what. ;PPP
Valygar. Who cares?
Mazzy. Who?
Xan. Has stoneskin and PFMW. He is OK imo.
Edwin. See above. Needs that 16 con for Viccy.
Viconia. Rise CON to 15 or 16 and she is ready to go.
all the rest is pretty much more or less all right stat wise
So she is legit for me.