Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit www.planescape.com to purchase and check for details. Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition Official Soundtrack is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

NPC Stats Which Are Wrong In Your Opinion

This isn't so much about the mechanics but how the characters of the NPC which have been broadly established over the years are not reflected by their stats. It's more about RP'ing and how as players we react to how they have been written.

So for instance, Alora, charisma 10. 10? That's the same as Edwin's and Xzar's. To me that makes no sense, it should be far higher. Even if you find her tiresome after a while she is undoubtedly charasmatic. It's how she gets away with being so OTT with the cheerfulness.

Faldon, wisdom 16. Now to me wisdom is based on gathered knowledge, weighing up the consequences, being able to see the "bigger" picture. Do Faldorn's actions portray somebody with a highish wisdom score?

Imoen, intelligence 17. It's downright stupid to not use your ability to learn and instead mess around thieving when you grow up in the equivalent of a university. And her strength score is far too low for somebody who has turned to the physical rather than the mental.

Jaheira and Khalid charisma 15 and 9 respectively. Those should be swapped or at least adjusted. I think sometimes people aren't so keen on Khalid, but I rarely read that people actively dislike him. Whereas Jaheira divides opinion, isn't that where charisma comes in? You have broad appeal.

Shar Teel constitution 9. How does that make any sense? She throws herself into fights and surely should have a robust constitution.

Edwin dexterity 10, constitution 16. So a person who is bookish and uses their hands for their craft has bad dexterity and the constitution of a field worker?

Xan charisma 16 Kivan charisma 8. Hmmm.......

So are there any stats you would like to see changed to a more realistic reflection of how you see the NPC?
AndreaColomboDreadKhanKamigoroshitbone1islandkingShikaoOrlonKronsteen
«1

Comments

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,162
    I know of lots of people that dislike Khalid, so damn many actually its absurd. I used him in my first playthrough though, he made a solid tank. You know, because my party of warriors + Yeslick needed a designated tank. :sweat:

    DnD without pointbuy often had some weird outcomes though, especially since not all editions encourage the DM to let you arrange as desired, meaning there was sometimes a decent reason to dual class, due to a weird stat distribution.

    I never thought too much about how 'accurate' stats would be.
    ThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 3,837
    Aerie: Her Constitution is 9, same as Shar-Teel, Haer'Dalis and Garrick... which is a totally average score (especially for elves). But precisely due to that it makes this score downright wrong! Considering her medical history of malnutrition, stress, mistreatment and chronical inflamed limbs that ultimately led to the amateurish amputation of her wings. Not to mention that Avariels have hollow bones just like birds. Heck, even BGII Viconia has a lower Constitution than her and she's perfectly healthy! Not to mention Xan and his meagerly Constitution of 7! All things considered, Aerie's Constitution should be the lowest of all to match her background. I'd give her a Constitution score of 6 at the highest and 5 at the lowest.

    Cernd: He is an odd one. *None* of his scores portrait the beast blood in his veins. By all account being a Werewolf should grant him with sharper reflexes and higher senses than most untrained Druids. At the same time the Wisdom score feels awfully high for someone battling constant bloodlust and the urge for carnage. A lower Wisdom score would also force players to actually use his shapeshifting abilities rather than spells. Strength 15, Dexterity 16, Constitution 15, Intelligence 9, Wisdom 14 and Charisma 15 feels more fitting here.
    semiticgodUnderstandMouseMagicBalrog99
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,088
    Viconia is another one where her stats IMO don't match what we know about her or how I see her.

    She's a survivor, she endures, she survives.

    Her strength and con stats are so bad you would think a gust of wind would knock her over and she would take absolutely ages to recover enough to pick herself up.
    Her constitution drops a point from 9 BG to 8 BG2, her wisdom increases from 15 to 18.
    Yet we know she survived digging herself out of a grave and we rescue her again and this time from being burned alive.

    That strikes me as her not being wise enough to stay out of trouble yet strong enough to stay alive. I would have bumped the strength/con stat and left the wisdom alone, or even decreased it. What was she thinking traveling to a city as corrupted as Athkatla and dominated by religion...with the headquarters of the RH based there? BG seemed far more easy going.
    tbone1CurmudgeonOrlonKronsteenBalrog99
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,352
    I dislike how many ogres in Baldur's Gate 1 have 16 Intelligence. Something seems a bit wrong with that.
    DreadKhanUnderstandMouseMagicThacoBellBalrog99
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,088
    Sarevok int 17.
    We see no sign of it at all, overall his plan and the way he carries it out is dumb, really dumb.
    Shank and Carbos?

    Whereas I reckon his charisma is sky high to get so many to follow and to fool the Dukes ect., and the way the player gets to forgive him in TOB and take him along.
    Balrog99
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,162

    I dislike how many ogres in Baldur's Gate 1 have 16 Intelligence. Something seems a bit wrong with that.

    The devs were just being smart here... be nice to Ogres or be pounded to goo!
    Balrog99
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    edited July 16
    Looking at this long list leads to the question which of the vanilla NPCs have adequate stats? Or levels.
    While mod added NPCs try hard to be balanced and represent the story and personality of a creature, those of the vanilla ones just seem pretty random.
    Working around all that is part of the game by now. Try to change it and wait for the shitstorm.
    MirandelOrlonKronsteen
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 365
    If you take a look at BG2 companion, you'll find many 10 scores in various places:

    Str 10 : Edwin Viconia Aerie
    Dex 10: Edwin Anomen
    Int 10: Jaheira Mazzy Anomen Valygar Yoshimo Dorn Il-Khan
    Wis 10: Edwin Sarevok Neera Clara
    Cha 10: Edwin Valygar Jan

    Well in fact, there're many same 9, 12, 16, 17 scores as well :'( sometime devs do get lazy...
    semiticgod
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 3,837

    Minsc's Intelligence and Wisdom are far too high.

    That's Boo's stats added to Minsc's. Considering this, it may just be too low.
    Boo is an animal and thus has an Intelligence score of 4. Minsc on the other hand is an animal with an Intelligence score of 4. Considering this, the equation adds up just fine. ;)
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,088

    Looking at this long list leads to the question which of the vanilla NPCs have adequate stats? Or levels.
    While mod added NPCs try hard to be balanced and represent the story and personality of a creature, those of the vanilla ones just seem pretty random.
    Working around all that is part of the game by now. Try to change it and wait for the shitstorm.

    I could be very wrong and the writers may have never even considered stats when creating the characters. In some instances when you RP you kind of have to ignore the strange stats.

    The ones that really stand out is
    Alora charisma,
    Kivan charisma
    Xan charisma
    Viconia strength/con
    Anomen/Keldorn dexterity (that really makes no sense as dexterity is linked to AC and they are first and foremost fighters handling weapons and stuff)
    Haer Dalis con 9 (he's planewalker, surely that would suggest having a robust constitution?)
    Edwin dex
    Shar teel con

    and the others I have mentioned. So I was interested in what other players tended to ignore stat wise when it comes to rp. Of course you can use items when playing, but in your imagination, do you imagine Vic as weak and fragile? Aerie yes, Viconia?
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548

    Looking at this long list leads to the question which of the vanilla NPCs have adequate stats? Or levels.
    While mod added NPCs try hard to be balanced and represent the story and personality of a creature, those of the vanilla ones just seem pretty random.
    Working around all that is part of the game by now. Try to change it and wait for the shitstorm.

    I could be very wrong and the writers may have never even considered stats when creating the characters. In some instances when you RP you kind of have to ignore the strange stats.

    The ones that really stand out is
    Alora charisma,
    Kivan charisma
    Xan charisma
    Viconia strength/con
    Anomen/Keldorn dexterity (that really makes no sense as dexterity is linked to AC and they are first and foremost fighters handling weapons and stuff)
    Haer Dalis con 9 (he's planewalker, surely that would suggest having a robust constitution?)
    Edwin dex
    Shar teel con

    and the others I have mentioned. So I was interested in what other players tended to ignore stat wise when it comes to rp. Of course you can use items when playing, but in your imagination, do you imagine Vic as weak and fragile? Aerie yes, Viconia?
    When I first played the games (long long time ago, shortly after they were originally released), I just took them as granted or even intended. You had to find the right items or invest your money to buy them in order to get a party together and well equipped for the challenges. I had the feeling that finding the right mix of equipment and NPC was part of the game. Today, I simply think I interpreted too much, they just made the NPCs from a chr file for which they threw dice and then changed it to a cre.

    Your list is fine.
    Add Dynaheir Dex and Con too high, Cha too low.
    tbone1
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,088
    @PaulaMigrate

    I completely agree that it is part of the game to equip NPC with what they need and to build an effective party. It's the RP aspect that I find funny.

    Scenario

    Major battle undertaken by the RH against marauding Hill Giants. Anomen has his mace ripped out of his hand. A fellow RH fighter shouts out "here Anomen catch this" and throws a replacement weapon which could save Anomen's life. Anomen fumbles and drops the thrown weapon because his dex is so crap. All the other fighters groan in unison and say "should have known, it's that klutz Anomen again".

    Meanwhile behind the desperate fighting are the ranks of the RH armed with bows and crossbows ready to shoot down the incoming Hill Giant reinforcements. Ready, Aim, Fire. "At the enemy Keldorn, at the enemy, not that large tree that looks a bit like a hill Giant" shouts the commanding officer as Keldorn's crossbow bolts veer alarmingly off course. " Sorry Sir, just reloading I'll get it right next time..oops dropped that bolt, don't worry got another one here.... be up to speed in just a minute".

    That's what low dex means to me. So how the hell did either survive so long considering you have to get the gauntlets from the undead in the UE quest?
    tbone1ThacoBellOrlonKronsteen
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548

    @PaulaMigrate

    I completely agree that it is part of the game to equip NPC with what they need and to build an effective party. It's the RP aspect that I find funny.

    Scenario

    Major battle undertaken by the RH against marauding Hill Giants. Anomen has his mace ripped out of his hand. A fellow RH fighter shouts out "here Anomen catch this" and throws a replacement weapon which could save Anomen's life. Anomen fumbles and drops the thrown weapon because his dex is so crap. All the other fighters groan in unison and say "should have known, it's that klutz Anomen again".

    Meanwhile behind the desperate fighting are the ranks of the RH armed with bows and crossbows ready to shoot down the incoming Hill Giant reinforcements. Ready, Aim, Fire. "At the enemy Keldorn, at the enemy, not that large tree that looks a bit like a hill Giant" shouts the commanding officer as Keldorn's crossbow bolts veer alarmingly off course. " Sorry Sir, just reloading I'll get it right next time..oops dropped that bolt, don't worry got another one here.... be up to speed in just a minute".

    That's what low dex means to me. So how the hell did either survive so long considering you have to get the gauntlets from the undead in the UE quest?

    From the RP point of view there are other things more striking than stats. They bother me still even accepting them as game features these days.
    You come to FAI to meet the old friends whom Gorion had recommended. A couple of harpers who have seen battle and adventures and are now there to help you, What a surprise! They are level1 companions equipped with pocket knifes and stone bullets. Is that the support promised by Gorion? Not only did they lose all their equipment on their journey to FAI but also their skills and experience. They tell you of their adventures and battes they have fought but they learned as much from them as you did in Candlekeep.
    UnderstandMouseMagicOrlonKronsteen
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 639
    Xzar's wisdom is too high. It should never be in double digits.

    Branwen's strength is too low, it seems to me. I'd say 15 is the minimum for a cleric of Tempus.

    Alora's charisma makes sense, oddly. She has a love-or-hate personality, so split the difference at 10.

    DreadKhanThacoBell
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 984
    A problem with the Mage characters' stats goes back to 2e requiring Specialized Mages to have certain stats. Evokers and Conjurers NEED a higher Constitution score, Enchanters NEED a higher Charisma score, Necromancers NEED (for some odd reason) a higher Wisdom score.

    Clearly Stat minimums can be ignored, just look at Minsc, but they were sticking to the flavor of 2e when they designed those characters and their stats. Obviously the characters aren't RPing their stats properly, but tell me how many people at an actual table roleplay their stats correctly?

    The non-Mages though don't seem to have said excuse working for them, and they are odd. Then again, while I'm no real min-maxer, I do put some "common sense" into my characters and their stats. No melee character would be caught dead without a Constitution bonus or two.

    And on Imoen, Rogues are noted for being quick-witted, how else would they know what a trap is and how to disable it? On the other hand, they're not known for being wise. A wise person would probably disable a trap at range with something mundane, like a stone, not crawl up to it, tinker with its innards and show how smart they are by disabling it.
    ThacoBell
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,162
    Yeah, Xzar is dualable to cleric, which while cool is very unlike his portrayal...

    UNLESS he's crazy as a fox!
    Balrog99
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,088

    A problem with the Mage characters' stats goes back to 2e requiring Specialized Mages to have certain stats. Evokers and Conjurers NEED a higher Constitution score, Enchanters NEED a higher Charisma score, Necromancers NEED (for some odd reason) a higher Wisdom score.

    Clearly Stat minimums can be ignored, just look at Minsc, but they were sticking to the flavor of 2e when they designed those characters and their stats. Obviously the characters aren't RPing their stats properly, but tell me how many people at an actual table roleplay their stats correctly?

    The non-Mages though don't seem to have said excuse working for them, and they are odd. Then again, while I'm no real min-maxer, I do put some "common sense" into my characters and their stats. No melee character would be caught dead without a Constitution bonus or two.

    And on Imoen, Rogues are noted for being quick-witted, how else would they know what a trap is and how to disable it? On the other hand, they're not known for being wise. A wise person would probably disable a trap at range with something mundane, like a stone, not crawl up to it, tinker with its innards and show how smart they are by disabling it.

    That's interesting, thanks.
    Any idea what the reasoning is behind it?

    I looked at the table for specialist mages when I read this and TBH it seemed rather random.

    The Imoen thing. It's not that she shouldn't have high int, it's that that wouldn't have been picked up considering where she grew up. You have to invent reasons why she's a thief when RPing rather than it seeming automatic and stemming from background. For her to be then automatically dualed to mage by the game seems (again to me) to be correcting something they got wrong in the first place with the stats.
    OrlonKronsteen
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    edited July 16
    The Imoen thing.

    Lore has it that Imoen was made joinable NPC as a last minute addon. She was made thief because there was none in early BG1. For these improvisational origins she turned out pretty good.

    Here are some snippets I found in my last playthrough
    Imoen: "(Grins) Back at Candlekeep I's dreaming to become a legendary thief - but I always got myself caught on my attempts...ooh, I had to be SOOO inventive everytime to shift the blame to CHARNAME."
    And;
    I know a bit of thieving, opening locks, finding traps, right?~
    ~All there is to steal in Candlekeep are scrolls...~
    ~Scrolls full of spells, ya know. An' ol' Imoen ain't dumb. I read them and I read them again and guess what...with that girl yesterday - she showed me that little extra trick I needed...and there it was.~
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 256

    Sarevok int 17.
    We see no sign of it at all, overall his plan and the way he carries it out is dumb, really dumb.
    Shank and Carbos?

    Whereas I reckon his charisma is sky high to get so many to follow and to fool the Dukes ect., and the way the player gets to forgive him in TOB and take him along.

    Sarevok did NOT send Shank and Carbos. He put a price on Gorion's Ward, initially a mere 200 gold, and these two muttonheads thought to collect.
    ThacoBell
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 639
    The idea of being able to adjust your character stats just seems wrong to me. Nothing I do is going to get me to a 17 or 18 dexterity (and I say this as someone who played high school sports against a couple guys who played some time in top US sports leagues).

    Yes, I know, FR is not Earth and it's just a game. And I myself tend to min-max. But it still bothers me.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 1,011


    That's interesting, thanks.
    Any idea what the reasoning is behind it?

    I looked at the table for specialist mages when I read this and TBH it seemed rather random.

    The Complete Wizard Handbook explains every stat requirement for a specialist wizard.

    A wizard must have strong intuition and exceptional willpower to master abjuration spells as reflected in a high Wisdom score. Specialists in this school must have a minimum Wisdom of 15.

    Because alteration spells have somewhat more complex somatic components than spells from other schools, a wizard needs a Dexterity score of at least 15 to become a transmuter.

    A wizard must have exceptional stamina to spend a lifetime casting conjuration and summoning spells, since he is at times tapping into his own life force in order to create conjured matter or lure summoned creatures. Therefore, a wizard must have a Constitution score of at least 15 to specialize in this school.

    Since influencing the will of others is in part a manifestation of the caster's personal class="Bold">charm, a wizard must have a Charisma of at least 16 to specialize as an enchanter.

    A wizard must have a strong intuition and exceptional willpower to master divination spells, reflected in a high Wisdom score. Specialists in this school must have a minimum Wisdom score of 16.

    The somatic components of most medium-level and high-level illusions require precise physical manipulations. Therefore, to specialize as an illusionist, a wizard must have a minimum Dexterity score of 16.

    Because of the powerful energies involved, a lifetime of casting invocation/evocation spells is extremely stressful to a wizard's health. A minimum Constitution of 16 is necessary to specialize as an invoker.

    Since only the most enlightened, strong-willed, and intuitive wizards can become specialists of this school, necromancers must have a minimum Wisdom of 16.
    ThacoBellUnderstandMouseMagicdeltago
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 256
    ThacoBell said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic "Sarevok int 17.
    We see no sign of it at all, overall his plan and the way he carries it out is dumb, really dumb."

    You mean BESIDES his flawless manipulation of the Chill, Black Talon, Zhentarim, the Iron Throne, the Dukes of Baldur's Gate, and whoever is in charge of Amn? Not to mention he did all this and managed to keep such a shining reputation that he was voted in as a Duke?

    Not to forgot ehhrrm... "framing" you for the murder of his foster father?
    DreadKhanThacoBellMirandel
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,088
    edited July 17
    dustbubsy said:
    Thanks for linking, very interesting thread. :)

    However I was trying to more talk about how from a RP perspective people react to the NPC and where the stats seem wrong for various characters in their opinion.

    It wasn't so much about game mechanics.

    So take Shar Teel con 9, wis 7.
    Wis 7, makes RP sense, out on her own in the wilderness picking fights, definitely not wise.
    Con 9, doesn't make RP sense IMO, out on her own in the wilderness picking fights, would need to have a good con to recover from injury and resist illness.

    So I kind of ignore the con stat in my headcannon. Shar Teel is robust and tough.
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.