NPC Stats Which Are Wrong In Your Opinion
UnderstandMouseMagic
Member Posts: 2,147
This isn't so much about the mechanics but how the characters of the NPC which have been broadly established over the years are not reflected by their stats. It's more about RP'ing and how as players we react to how they have been written.
So for instance, Alora, charisma 10. 10? That's the same as Edwin's and Xzar's. To me that makes no sense, it should be far higher. Even if you find her tiresome after a while she is undoubtedly charasmatic. It's how she gets away with being so OTT with the cheerfulness.
Faldon, wisdom 16. Now to me wisdom is based on gathered knowledge, weighing up the consequences, being able to see the "bigger" picture. Do Faldorn's actions portray somebody with a highish wisdom score?
Imoen, intelligence 17. It's downright stupid to not use your ability to learn and instead mess around thieving when you grow up in the equivalent of a university. And her strength score is far too low for somebody who has turned to the physical rather than the mental.
Jaheira and Khalid charisma 15 and 9 respectively. Those should be swapped or at least adjusted. I think sometimes people aren't so keen on Khalid, but I rarely read that people actively dislike him. Whereas Jaheira divides opinion, isn't that where charisma comes in? You have broad appeal.
Shar Teel constitution 9. How does that make any sense? She throws herself into fights and surely should have a robust constitution.
Edwin dexterity 10, constitution 16. So a person who is bookish and uses their hands for their craft has bad dexterity and the constitution of a field worker?
Xan charisma 16 Kivan charisma 8. Hmmm.......
So are there any stats you would like to see changed to a more realistic reflection of how you see the NPC?
So for instance, Alora, charisma 10. 10? That's the same as Edwin's and Xzar's. To me that makes no sense, it should be far higher. Even if you find her tiresome after a while she is undoubtedly charasmatic. It's how she gets away with being so OTT with the cheerfulness.
Faldon, wisdom 16. Now to me wisdom is based on gathered knowledge, weighing up the consequences, being able to see the "bigger" picture. Do Faldorn's actions portray somebody with a highish wisdom score?
Imoen, intelligence 17. It's downright stupid to not use your ability to learn and instead mess around thieving when you grow up in the equivalent of a university. And her strength score is far too low for somebody who has turned to the physical rather than the mental.
Jaheira and Khalid charisma 15 and 9 respectively. Those should be swapped or at least adjusted. I think sometimes people aren't so keen on Khalid, but I rarely read that people actively dislike him. Whereas Jaheira divides opinion, isn't that where charisma comes in? You have broad appeal.
Shar Teel constitution 9. How does that make any sense? She throws herself into fights and surely should have a robust constitution.
Edwin dexterity 10, constitution 16. So a person who is bookish and uses their hands for their craft has bad dexterity and the constitution of a field worker?
Xan charisma 16 Kivan charisma 8. Hmmm.......
So are there any stats you would like to see changed to a more realistic reflection of how you see the NPC?
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Comments
DnD without pointbuy often had some weird outcomes though, especially since not all editions encourage the DM to let you arrange as desired, meaning there was sometimes a decent reason to dual class, due to a weird stat distribution.
I never thought too much about how 'accurate' stats would be.
Cernd: He is an odd one. *None* of his scores portrait the beast blood in his veins. By all account being a Werewolf should grant him with sharper reflexes and higher senses than most untrained Druids. At the same time the Wisdom score feels awfully high for someone battling constant bloodlust and the urge for carnage. A lower Wisdom score would also force players to actually use his shapeshifting abilities rather than spells. Strength 15, Dexterity 16, Constitution 15, Intelligence 9, Wisdom 14 and Charisma 15 feels more fitting here.
She's a survivor, she endures, she survives.
Her strength and con stats are so bad you would think a gust of wind would knock her over and she would take absolutely ages to recover enough to pick herself up.
Her constitution drops a point from 9 BG to 8 BG2, her wisdom increases from 15 to 18.
Yet we know she survived digging herself out of a grave and we rescue her again and this time from being burned alive.
That strikes me as her not being wise enough to stay out of trouble yet strong enough to stay alive. I would have bumped the strength/con stat and left the wisdom alone, or even decreased it. What was she thinking traveling to a city as corrupted as Athkatla and dominated by religion...with the headquarters of the RH based there? BG seemed far more easy going.
We see no sign of it at all, overall his plan and the way he carries it out is dumb, really dumb.
Shank and Carbos?
Whereas I reckon his charisma is sky high to get so many to follow and to fool the Dukes ect., and the way the player gets to forgive him in TOB and take him along.
While mod added NPCs try hard to be balanced and represent the story and personality of a creature, those of the vanilla ones just seem pretty random.
Working around all that is part of the game by now. Try to change it and wait for the shitstorm.
Str 10 : Edwin Viconia Aerie
Dex 10: Edwin Anomen
Int 10: Jaheira Mazzy Anomen Valygar Yoshimo Dorn Il-Khan
Wis 10: Edwin Sarevok Neera Clara
Cha 10: Edwin Valygar Jan
Well in fact, there're many same 9, 12, 16, 17 scores as well
The ones that really stand out is
Alora charisma,
Kivan charisma
Xan charisma
Viconia strength/con
Anomen/Keldorn dexterity (that really makes no sense as dexterity is linked to AC and they are first and foremost fighters handling weapons and stuff)
Haer Dalis con 9 (he's planewalker, surely that would suggest having a robust constitution?)
Edwin dex
Shar teel con
and the others I have mentioned. So I was interested in what other players tended to ignore stat wise when it comes to rp. Of course you can use items when playing, but in your imagination, do you imagine Vic as weak and fragile? Aerie yes, Viconia?
Your list is fine.
Add Dynaheir Dex and Con too high, Cha too low.
I completely agree that it is part of the game to equip NPC with what they need and to build an effective party. It's the RP aspect that I find funny.
Scenario
Major battle undertaken by the RH against marauding Hill Giants. Anomen has his mace ripped out of his hand. A fellow RH fighter shouts out "here Anomen catch this" and throws a replacement weapon which could save Anomen's life. Anomen fumbles and drops the thrown weapon because his dex is so crap. All the other fighters groan in unison and say "should have known, it's that klutz Anomen again".
Meanwhile behind the desperate fighting are the ranks of the RH armed with bows and crossbows ready to shoot down the incoming Hill Giant reinforcements. Ready, Aim, Fire. "At the enemy Keldorn, at the enemy, not that large tree that looks a bit like a hill Giant" shouts the commanding officer as Keldorn's crossbow bolts veer alarmingly off course. " Sorry Sir, just reloading I'll get it right next time..oops dropped that bolt, don't worry got another one here.... be up to speed in just a minute".
That's what low dex means to me. So how the hell did either survive so long considering you have to get the gauntlets from the undead in the UE quest?
You come to FAI to meet the old friends whom Gorion had recommended. A couple of harpers who have seen battle and adventures and are now there to help you, What a surprise! They are level1 companions equipped with pocket knifes and stone bullets. Is that the support promised by Gorion? Not only did they lose all their equipment on their journey to FAI but also their skills and experience. They tell you of their adventures and battes they have fought but they learned as much from them as you did in Candlekeep.
Branwen's strength is too low, it seems to me. I'd say 15 is the minimum for a cleric of Tempus.
Alora's charisma makes sense, oddly. She has a love-or-hate personality, so split the difference at 10.
Clearly Stat minimums can be ignored, just look at Minsc, but they were sticking to the flavor of 2e when they designed those characters and their stats. Obviously the characters aren't RPing their stats properly, but tell me how many people at an actual table roleplay their stats correctly?
The non-Mages though don't seem to have said excuse working for them, and they are odd. Then again, while I'm no real min-maxer, I do put some "common sense" into my characters and their stats. No melee character would be caught dead without a Constitution bonus or two.
And on Imoen, Rogues are noted for being quick-witted, how else would they know what a trap is and how to disable it? On the other hand, they're not known for being wise. A wise person would probably disable a trap at range with something mundane, like a stone, not crawl up to it, tinker with its innards and show how smart they are by disabling it.
UNLESS he's crazy as a fox!
Any idea what the reasoning is behind it?
I looked at the table for specialist mages when I read this and TBH it seemed rather random.
The Imoen thing. It's not that she shouldn't have high int, it's that that wouldn't have been picked up considering where she grew up. You have to invent reasons why she's a thief when RPing rather than it seeming automatic and stemming from background. For her to be then automatically dualed to mage by the game seems (again to me) to be correcting something they got wrong in the first place with the stats.
Lore has it that Imoen was made joinable NPC as a last minute addon. She was made thief because there was none in early BG1. For these improvisational origins she turned out pretty good.
Here are some snippets I found in my last playthrough
And;
I know a bit of thieving, opening locks, finding traps, right?~
~All there is to steal in Candlekeep are scrolls...~
~Scrolls full of spells, ya know. An' ol' Imoen ain't dumb. I read them and I read them again and guess what...with that girl yesterday - she showed me that little extra trick I needed...and there it was.~
Seeing how easily and furiously she gets triggered over being simply asked to cook a meal, I wouldn't be surprised if deep inside she knows her meager endurance really doesn't belong to a front line fighter, which pushes her to pick up more and more fights just to prove to own herself that she can. Her story is really a sad one, more than anything. Seeing how most of character development in BG1 was limited to their selection quotes and battle cries, I imagine there weren't any lengthy debates on each NPC over their stats, text and backgrounds. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" (C) S. Freud
Yes, I know, FR is not Earth and it's just a game. And I myself tend to min-max. But it still bothers me.
A wizard must have strong intuition and exceptional willpower to master abjuration spells as reflected in a high Wisdom score. Specialists in this school must have a minimum Wisdom of 15.
Because alteration spells have somewhat more complex somatic components than spells from other schools, a wizard needs a Dexterity score of at least 15 to become a transmuter.
A wizard must have exceptional stamina to spend a lifetime casting conjuration and summoning spells, since he is at times tapping into his own life force in order to create conjured matter or lure summoned creatures. Therefore, a wizard must have a Constitution score of at least 15 to specialize in this school.
Since influencing the will of others is in part a manifestation of the caster's personal class="Bold">charm, a wizard must have a Charisma of at least 16 to specialize as an enchanter.
A wizard must have a strong intuition and exceptional willpower to master divination spells, reflected in a high Wisdom score. Specialists in this school must have a minimum Wisdom score of 16.
The somatic components of most medium-level and high-level illusions require precise physical manipulations. Therefore, to specialize as an illusionist, a wizard must have a minimum Dexterity score of 16.
Because of the powerful energies involved, a lifetime of casting invocation/evocation spells is extremely stressful to a wizard's health. A minimum Constitution of 16 is necessary to specialize as an invoker.
Since only the most enlightened, strong-willed, and intuitive wizards can become specialists of this school, necromancers must have a minimum Wisdom of 16.
We see no sign of it at all, overall his plan and the way he carries it out is dumb, really dumb."
You mean BESIDES his flawless manipulation of the Chill, Black Talon, Zhentarim, the Iron Throne, the Dukes of Baldur's Gate, and whoever is in charge of Amn? Not to mention he did all this and managed to keep such a shining reputation that he was voted in as a Duke?
lol Xzar
Just popped in to plug the threads I made in the past discussing NPC stats for those interested. Many interesting points were made.
Strength: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/31384/lets-talk-about-strength/p1
Dexterity: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/31495/lets-talk-about-dexterity/p1
Constitution: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/31656/lets-talk-about-constitution/p1
Intelligence: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/31765/lets-talk-about-intelligence/p1
Wisdom: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/31911/lets-talk-about-wisdom/p1
Charisma: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/32024/lets-talk-about-charisma/p1
However I was trying to more talk about how from a RP perspective people react to the NPC and where the stats seem wrong for various characters in their opinion.
It wasn't so much about game mechanics.
So take Shar Teel con 9, wis 7.
Wis 7, makes RP sense, out on her own in the wilderness picking fights, definitely not wise.
Con 9, doesn't make RP sense IMO, out on her own in the wilderness picking fights, would need to have a good con to recover from injury and resist illness.
So I kind of ignore the con stat in my headcannon. Shar Teel is robust and tough.
So he's insane, because he knows how it is.