In my totallynotspeakingforthecompanybecauseIdon'tmakethesedecisions opinion, I ... am not sure about this. I really don't know and think the best option is to wait and see.
I doubt we'll see another infinity engine game, it's just way to old, and the cracks and limitation too obvious. A new engine based of the the style of IE would be much better IMO
Obsidian already created a new engine that tries to be the next IE.
It's awful.
I don't think it's then engine itself that is awful, more the rule set.
But yeah, even if so, the solution would be: do it better
In my opinion people who want to see an original game have options like POE and T-TON. The thing that Beamdog does that is special is that they are adding to the infinity engine games. I would be interested in an original game from Beamdog and support them with a purchase but it's the work that they have done on the old games that have brought us to this site and it's the reason they are unique. I would much rather see a new expansion pack to TOB than a new original game. If I wanted to play a new isometric original game I would buy Tyranny. If Beamdog makes a new original game with a new ruleset in a new world it would be like buying POE 2 in that we don't know if it will be as good or better than the other game options currently on the market and we have no reason to believe that Beamdog's new game would be until it actually happens.
Like I said, I would be more than happy to support them and see what they have regarding a new original game but Beamdog are the only ones that can add expansions to my favorite game series of all time and there are multiple other game studios that are making original new isometric Baldur's gate style experiences.
I have to agree that there is a unique feel or atmosphere with the Infinity Engine games that still has value.
I tried POE and saw that it had some value in certain areas but it did not scratch my itch for this original game series.
For me, the fact that the itch still exists for a game series of its age even after playing its younger, flashier descendant, speaks volumes about its ongoing worth and viability.
Some of these points probably have been brought up already, but here's my take on the topic:
Another direct entry in the BG series wouldn't make sense. The story is wrapped up. Making another sequel would either mean A. focusing on a new protagonist, which would be breaking with the spirit of the series, B. doing a soft redcon of the ToB ending, making sure the protagonist is depowered in some contrived way which wouldn't sit well with many players (for good reason) or C. actually taking into account all three different endings, which would be really hard to pull off in a non-contrived way and even then would probably be really bad for the budged, since effectively two/three different story lines would need to be written.
As for another IE game, as much as we all like IE here, it has no viability on the modern market. The engine is old, the presentation is subpar. The potential audience is too small, so the budget would be too small to produce the type of game we'd all want.
Which brings me to the spiritual successors, which a bunch of people here have already mentioned aparently. Aside from the actual writing, level designs and all that stuff, modern engines as a viable successor to the Infinity Engine are still in a trial and error phase. The issue with the Unity builds Obsidian used for Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny make look great, but they have some serious issues that ultimately let's them never get on the same level as BG and co.: 1. Lack of modability and 2. way too long loading times. Also, I must say that the games come off as way more hardware hungry than they honestly should have any right to be. I mean, they are pretty, but they backgrounds present themselves in 2D. Having the backgrounds in large parts being real-time rendered 3D bits is bad for the performance. (Take this bit with a grain of salt, I am not a programmer or 3D engineer or anything.)
Then there's the Divinity: Original Sin series. Which comes along with a seemingly powerful machinery behind it's pretty colours. The first game lacked depths and good writing, among other things, but the second game more than made up for it. It's still not perfect and the story is still not as memorable as BG's or PS:T's ever will be, but it's not trying to be. D:OS is focused on multiplayer and tries to be more like Neverwinter Nights than anything else, if you ask me.
(I have barely played Torment: Tides of Numenera, so no comment on that.)
So. What this genre really needs is a powerful, versatile and moddable (seriously, I can't stress enough how frickin important moddability is) engine/ engine build that can take over for IE. And then this engine needs to be given into the hands of a skilled team of inspired devs. Inspired is the important part here. Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment are very deeply inspired games. What people tend to forget is that these two games where cases of the stars aligning perfectly at the right moment. It is really hard to top what these two games achieved.
Which is where Tyranny and the D:OS series come into play. PoE tried way too hard to emulate the games of yesteryear without actually trying anything really new or interesting. Tyranny brought the fresh new setting and the uncommon narrative structure of a black & grey morality. D:OS brought the technical innovation.
So in regards to "the next Baldur's Gate": I think the logical next step would be a new series, with the D&D license and a fresh engine. A new series that can stand on it's own and instead of being another "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate" it would be "the next D&D game". And maybe we get extra lucky and get a setting that doesn't equate to "medieval central europe with orcs and elves"
"As for another IE game, as much as we all like IE here, it has no viability on the modern market. The engine is old, the presentation is subpar. The potential audience is too small, so the budget would be too small to produce the type of game we'd all want".
My personal preferences are at odds with several statements in the post above but I agree that it does all come down to money .... (making projects possible and viable)
Didn't SOD do well commercially ?
I'd be surprised that they were making an effort to port to IOS as well if it did so badly ....
As for another IE game, as much as we all like IE here, it has no viability on the modern market. The engine is old, the presentation is subpar. The potential audience is too small, . . .
I simply disagree. I think the question comes down to: who is the audience? I think this forum is dominated by people who were part of the modding community -- the group that kept the IE alive for years after its sell by date. And, because that group is pretty small, it is tempting to think that is the group that would by be interested in an IE game. But I think that small group is a really small slice of the people who are would be interested in a new IE game. BGEE made a much bigger splash than anyone anticipated because people like me -- people who aren't part of the modding community, who play without mods and couldn't care less about modding -- bought the game.
And I think BD made a critical mistake in its roll out of BGEE and it was a mistake made with the very same assumption made here, i.e., that the audience for an IE game is the modding community . . . BD did not test the game on crappy laptops. The sort of POS laptops that non gamers own so they can open their browsers and MS word.
I was one of the people who waited *forever* for BD to rewrite the graphics renderer to handle my terrible intel chip. I get that Intel bears the burden of responsibility because they don't follow open standards but, still, the roll out was flawed because BD chose testers from the modding community when the audience was much larger than that.
**********
In real life I drive a car from the 1960s that I've modified to be as reliable as any modern car. Sort of. It always runs and gets me to work. But the list of mod cons it lacks is impressive: No power steering. Suspension is joke. Steers like a bus. Heater is barely adequate. No air conditioning. No power windows. AM radio. Needs a tune up every 3,000 miles. You get the picture.
No modern car company would build a car like mine today. Yet, every time I stop for gas I get someone who wants to ask me questions about it -- it's actually a little annoying when I'm running late for work. And I get a note on the window with offers to buy the car about once a month.
And there are people who make a decent living selling parts for my car. And people make money selling upgrades. And people who specialize in body work . . .
So I think there is an untapped audience for "classic" game engines just like there is an audience for classic cars. Just as some people are happy driving without power steering, so it is that some people are fine playing games that don't require periodic hardware upgrades. I think the BD sales numbers are artificially low because of (a) mistakes that Beamdog made and (b) a completely undeserved attack on BD by the alt right.
So in regards to "the next Baldur's Gate": I think the logical next step would be a new series, with the D&D license and a fresh engine. A new series that can stand on it's own and instead of being another "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate"
It seems clear to me that if BD is going to produce another D&D game that is what we are going to get. But, again, I think someone could make a living off of producing new IE games. If I had money I put my money where my mouth is.
Some of these points probably have been brought up already, but here's my take on the topic:
Another direct entry in the BG series wouldn't make sense. The story is wrapped up. Making another sequel would either mean A. focusing on a new protagonist, which would be breaking with the spirit of the series, B. doing a soft redcon of the ToB ending, making sure the protagonist is depowered in some contrived way which wouldn't sit well with many players (for good reason) or C. actually taking into account all three different endings, which would be really hard to pull off in a non-contrived way and even then would probably be really bad for the budged, since effectively two/three different story lines would need to be written.
As for another IE game, as much as we all like IE here, it has no viability on the modern market. The engine is old, the presentation is subpar. The potential audience is too small, so the budget would be too small to produce the type of game we'd all want.
Which brings me to the spiritual successors, which a bunch of people here have already mentioned aparently. Aside from the actual writing, level designs and all that stuff, modern engines as a viable successor to the Infinity Engine are still in a trial and error phase. The issue with the Unity builds Obsidian used for Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny make look great, but they have some serious issues that ultimately let's them never get on the same level as BG and co.: 1. Lack of modability and 2. way too long loading times. Also, I must say that the games come off as way more hardware hungry than they honestly should have any right to be. I mean, they are pretty, but they backgrounds present themselves in 2D. Having the backgrounds in large parts being real-time rendered 3D bits is bad for the performance. (Take this bit with a grain of salt, I am not a programmer or 3D engineer or anything.)
Then there's the Divinity: Original Sin series. Which comes along with a seemingly powerful machinery behind it's pretty colours. The first game lacked depths and good writing, among other things, but the second game more than made up for it. It's still not perfect and the story is still not as memorable as BG's or PS:T's ever will be, but it's not trying to be. D:OS is focused on multiplayer and tries to be more like Neverwinter Nights than anything else, if you ask me.
(I have barely played Torment: Tides of Numenera, so no comment on that.)
So. What this genre really needs is a powerful, versatile and moddable (seriously, I can't stress enough how frickin important moddability is) engine/ engine build that can take over for IE. And then this engine needs to be given into the hands of a skilled team of inspired devs. Inspired is the important part here. Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment are very deeply inspired games. What people tend to forget is that these two games where cases of the stars aligning perfectly at the right moment. It is really hard to top what these two games achieved.
Which is where Tyranny and the D:OS series come into play. PoE tried way too hard to emulate the games of yesteryear without actually trying anything really new or interesting. Tyranny brought the fresh new setting and the uncommon narrative structure of a black & grey morality. D:OS brought the technical innovation.
So in regards to "the next Baldur's Gate": I think the logical next step would be a new series, with the D&D license and a fresh engine. A new series that can stand on it's own and instead of being another "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate" it would be "the next D&D game". And maybe we get extra lucky and get a setting that doesn't equate to "medieval central europe with orcs and elves"
I agree that Beamdog cannot make expansions and sequels in the infinity engine forever. If they make a new game series then I agree with you that it should be it's own series with new rules and a new set of characters. However I disagree with your stance on Baldur's Gate 3. Baldur's Gate 3 was the overarching goal of Beamdog since the start. Everyone who hangs out on this site likes the Infinity engine and Baldur's Gate. I have not played a game that is better than Baldur's Gate SOA since it's release nearly 20 years ago. If newer rules are so much better and new graphic engines are so important then why have all of these teams from big league companies failed to deliver a game that can match up?
Beamdog are a small indie team. Working with the infinity engine is a blessing for them because they don't have the cash or a large enough team to build an epic like Baldur's Gate in a modern engine. Beamdog is made up of old Baldur's Gate developers and Infinity engine modders who are all fans of Baldur's Gate. They would be taking advantage of their strengths and minimizing their weakness by building a Baldur's Gate game in the infinity engine. Beamdog is pretty much a dreamteam developer for a Baldur's Gate title in the infinity engine. This would be our last chance as fans to experience an infinity engine title and the 2E rules on a new game. It would also be the last chance that anyone will ever make Baldur's Gate a proper trilogy.
Your thoughts on Baldurs Gate 3 seem narrow minded to me. Beamdog could simply reinstate the SOA XP cap and when you beat Irenicus you would see this: Continue to TOB, 1999, 60 Hours? Continue to Baldur's Gate 3 2019, 200 hours? That's all they need to do. Watchers Keep can be played in SOA and the original TOB is still purchasable un-modified if fans want it and can even be played in the EE's in an unmodded state. Baldur's Gate 3 would start with your imported level 18 team and could go all the way up to level 50 with new HLAs in a completely new city with new wilderness to explore and a completely original story and ending.
They re-created parts of Baldur's Gate city and added new characters and missions within the city during SOD so if they really wanted to they could recreate parts of TOB and change it so that the existing areas are only a small part of a larger campaign where you actually fight the armies of the 5 instead of just having show downs with the bhaalspawns that lead them. Remember this would not be TOB, that game would still be available on it's own. Like SOD they could build onto the world and incorporate small parts of TOB if they wanted to go that route. The original ending might be a little easy since you would be level 50 instead of level 40 but they already added LOB mode and they could add alternate endings that are brutal hard even for a level 50 party. Personally, I liked TOB but I would rather them just pretend it didn't happen and build a full fledged 3rd game.
Beamdog have plenty of options for making Baldur's Gate 3 and I guarantee it would be more fun than any of these new games trying to copy the original Baldur's gate formula. SOD had the gameplay and the graphics. It was pinched between two games and some didn't like the writing but now they have David Guider and Baldur's Gate 3 could stand completely on it's own with nothing holding it down outside of a small transition after SOA.
I would call it Baldur's Gate 3: The Armies Of The Five. The cover art would be a huge burning Gate Spell with a new improved, final Slayer form standing in the middle. Each of the 5 points of the pentagram would lead to one of the 5 armies and the blood from all of the armies would be the gate spell that resurrects Bhall. The engine is already tooled up for better graphics and huge army battles. It would easily beat any of the games that have come out in the last 15 years. They could make up new villains and give them different names and focus the game on being the champion of your own army and fighting the armies of the five most powerful bhaalspawns. Or they could simply do a completely original story that has nothing to do with the five bhaal spawn or five armies. Either way it would be killer and I would rather Beamdog focus on that than anything else. Of course if they need to make some original games in order to get the money and the team down to pull off BG3 I would be cool with that. I am all for supporting Beamdog with whatever they choose to do in the future.
@the_sextein "Your thoughts on Baldurs Gate 3 seem narrow minded to me. Beamdog could simply reinstate the SOA XP cap and when you beat Irenicus you would see this: Continue to TOB, 1999, 60 Hours? Continue to Baldur's Gate 3 2019, 200 hours? That's all they need to do. Watchers Keep can be played in SOA and the original TOB is still purchasable un-modified if fans want it and can even be played in the EE's in an unmodded state. Baldur's Gate 3 would start with your imported level 18 team and could go all the way up to level 50 with new HLAs in a completely new city with new wilderness to explore and a completely original story and ending."
WHY!? Oh yes, lets just retcon the enitre climax of BG and undo all of the themes and stories that were building up to it. That is hands down, the WORST idea for a BG3 I have ever heard. I have yet to see any kind of continuation of the bhallspawn's saga, that doesn't either retcon huge swaths of story, make half of the player base's endgame choice pointless, or re-tread ground already covered by the existing games. THERE IS ZERO GOOD REASON FOR THERE TO BE A BG3.
@killerrabbit The Infinity Engine if too restrictive. So many things are hardcoded that there can't really be new features added to it. So many things that people wish they could do, can't even be modded because its such a poorly constructed engine. BG is good DESPITE its engine, not BECAUSE of. I mean, these games are over 15 years old at this point and technically unimpressive. The series is good because of its its heart, that you can feel in the writing and characters. There was love that went into crafting it, despite limitations. A new, better engine, would not prevent any if that from happening.
I got the idea that most people were not satisfied with TOB. Either way they could still build a new end that has similar themes and meaning just with more time and love added to it. I stated that making a completely new campaign with no relation to TOB as simply one option they could take if they think they could wrap the game up better than TOB did.
The good reason for there to be a BG3 is because we would actually like a fun game instead of what is coming out these days. If you don't like the infinity engine anymore and don't want to play more Baldurs gate that is fine. Plenty of new games like POE are out there for you to play and plenty of game developers with multi million dollar kickstarter campaigns are making new games with new engines and new rules.
@killerrabbit The Infinity Engine if too restrictive. So many things are hardcoded that there can't really be new features added to it. So many things that people wish they could do, can't even be modded because its such a poorly constructed engine. BG is good DESPITE its engine, not BECAUSE of. I mean, these games are over 15 years old at this point and technically unimpressive. The series is good because of its its heart, that you can feel in the writing and characters. There was love that went into crafting it, despite limitations. A new, better engine, would not prevent any if that from happening.
Appreciate the response but I think you've disregarded my analogy. Yes, there are features that you can't add to the engine because it is too restrictive. Granted. Point made and made well. But my point is that there are people who really don't care about that and instead care about the way the engine feels.
To belabor the analogy -- you will never get a decent air conditioning system into a 1960s car. You simply need a modern computer to do right. And for some people this makes a 1960s car out of the question.
And yet, there are some wackos out there that prefer no air conditioning, manual shifting cars to modern cars with all of their conveniences. So many people that I cannot stop for gas without getting into a discussion about my car. Truly.
And so it is with the IE engine. I loved the PoE story. PoE's story was better than BG's. Hands down the best story in a video game. Evar. And the graphics were better. And the sound was good. Portraits were brilliant . . .
Annnnnd, with all of that, the game simply doesn't have the same feel as an IE game. I -- and some others -- prefer a game with an IE feel to a game with superior graphics and inferior combat.
Is it possible for Beamdog to replicate the IE feel with the Unreal engine? Time will tell but Obsidian told us that they had achieved that with Unity engine I simply disagree.
Yeah, I really liked POE's characters and the voice acting. The graphics were much better but seemed less personal, almost repetitive in style. The sound was good but the gameplay just got boring and I lost interest at the start of the 3rd act. SOD on the other hand had some story problems and it was pinched between two games so it felt very linear. Despite that, it had the gameplay that I crave and I enjoyed SOD much more than POE. Graphics in SOD were very nice despite the older engine.
I am not saying I want to play nothing but the infinity engine forever. I am just saying that plenty of other developers are already doing new things and I would like to get a little more content for Baldur's Gate from Beamdog since they are in a position to do so. If that means an expansion pack for SOA or Baldur's Gate 3... I would be happy either way.
But there is NO WHERE TO GO with a BG3. All options that I have ever heard require alienating whole swaths of the playerbase. I really enjoy ToB and the ending it brings, and I would never be okay with any developer deciding that the decisions I made didn't matter. Chose to remain mortal? Too bad! Charname was a god all along! What's that? You ascended as the evil god of Murder? Too bad! Charname was good all along and you start the game as the god of fluffy bunnies! Seriously, where could the series possibly go without retconning or flat out ignoring this story that is supposedly so beloved after 15+ years?
Well, again, I think the question of the infinity engine and BG3 are two different discussions but:
1. Plenty of room to add quests story to ToB. I don't see why you couldn't put something between the destruction of the city and the killing of the five.
2. Good ideas abound for the story after ascension:
a. Let's take on cyric
b. Let's subdue the Throne of Bhall and make the Throne of Charname. How do you establish yourself as young god in the pantheon? Do you take up the mantle of murder? The god of life changing events? Euthanasia? The dusk lord aspect of the god of the sun?
c. New god needs allies -- I bet if we rescued Waukeen she would help us against Cyric
3. What about the child of charname?
or
4. What about an adventure that starts in a city called Baldurs Gate?
5. What about the mess that charname left behind? I'm sure that one ring needs to be destroyed. The city is teaming with vampires that Bodhi made. Perhaps the Order has decided that the shadow thieves are so weak that they can be driven from the city -- do you help the paladins or the assassins? Some needs to reestablish a harper base . . .
@killerrabbit "1. Plenty of room to add quests story to ToB. I don't see why you couldn't put something between the destruction of the city and the killing of the five."
Absolutely agree here, there is plenty of room for new things in ToB.
"2. Good ideas abound for the story after ascension:"
What about the players who don't ascend? This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Are we gonna just go "Nope, you played wrong" to about half the playerbase?
"3. What about the child of charname?"
This again assumes, that someone's charname had a romance. Also, which romance do you choose as canon? Have you seen some of the arguments that come about over who is supposedly the best romance? This is even worse than point 2 above, as you are GUARANTEED to piss off at least 75% of players.
"5. What about the mess that charname left behind? I'm sure that one ring needs to be destroyed. The city is teaming with vampires that Bodhi made. Perhaps the Order has decided that the shadow thieves are so weak that they can be driven from the city -- do you help the paladins or the assassins? Some needs to reestablish a harper base . . . "
I have no complaints here. There are some great things that can be explored outside of charname. My problem with it is calling it "Baldur's Gate 3". The Baldur's Gate saga is about one thing, a mortal struggling against a heritage that threatens to consume them. When you take this character out, its not Baldur's Gate anymore. Its a sequel in name only. At that point, its just an all new game that really shouldn't hold the Baldur's Gate name. That story is well and truely closed.
I'm still waiting for the game they should have made instead of SOD. One that might actually feel like a BG game rather than IWD.
Non linear, a different part of realms, more adventures with your trusty companions, more adventures to try out with different parties, more adventures to play solo, or no reload, or however else people keep on playing this game. Well written, stories/quests that are satisfying to complete.
That's all I ever wanted. And probably the easiest thing to deliver. Instead we got SOD.
Crazy decision, take the parts that are the least satisfying of BG and SOA and build a game based on those rather than the bits that drive so many discussions, so much interest, so much player involvement.
Somebody bothers to create a mod that removes "Chateau Irenicus" because it's so tiresome, such a bright idea to start SOD in a compulsory dungeon??? They must have been drunk, it's the only plausible explaination.
@UnderstandMouseMagic To be fair, SoD feels more like BG2 than IWD. Of course I can definitely see why someone who likes BG1 the most will be disappointed by the linearity of SoD.
3. Well, never question the ability of people to make themselves unhappy but these seem like relatively simple technical fixes. PC elves / half elves romanced Jaheria / Aerie or Viconia. Half orcs, Dorn. Humans, Raasad or Corwin. Gnomes PCs are the product of one too many beers for Glint and Dwarves and halflings are the product of dalliance with that cute barkeep . . .
The point is we don't know the sex / race of charname so he / she is whatever race the new charname is.
2. Well cannon already says that he didn't choose godhood so this is all alternative universe stuff anyway. And how many people have only made one choice? I'm guess that everyone who played ToB played at least twice . . .
1. We agree. Woot! Attention Beamdog. ThacoBell and I agree and you are thereby obligated to expand ToB. Please let us know when you plan to live up to this obligation.
I'm still waiting for the game they should have made instead of SOD. One that might actually feel like a BG game rather than IWD.
Non linear, a different part of realms, more adventures with your trusty companions, more adventures to try out with different parties, more adventures to play solo, or no reload, or however else people keep on playing this game.
Agreed. I'd love a game that takes some low level characters through the mess left by the Bhallspawn. Candlekeep on the borderlands or somesuch. Wander around, find adventures, buy equipment, save the world.
@killerrabbit@the_sextein There's been a bunch of posts since I made mine, so I may mix up who said what, so I am just gonna put my arguments into one.
I never said that an IE BG3 is impossible to pull of. I just said that doing it proper justice is very hard to pull of. No matter what plot hooks you can go up, actually writing a fully fledged game would be a narrative design nightmare. I stand by that.
Baldur's Gate stayed alive thanks to the modding community. There is no doubt about that. Not everyone is a modder, of course, but I am taking a wild guess and assume that the largest part of the consistent player base (aka the people who actually keep playing the game post-release) all use mods. Literally the biggest argument critics and players alike made against the EEs is that people could just play the original with mods. Also, the active forum community is tiny. Even if all of us where guaranteed to buy three copies of a hypothetical BG3, that would still not be enough of a budget to make the type of game we could all be satisfied with. You guys are really underestimating just how damn expensive it is to make a game.
Oh yeah, also, the entire reason why SoD was an expansion instead of a stand alone game, was that Wizards of the Coast forbade Beamdog to make a stand-alone game with anything else than 5e rules. So making BG3 would require the game to have 5e rules, which means that IE would need to be completely readjusted. I am pretty sure that at that point switching to a more customisable engine would be the smarter thing to do. And also also, Trent Oster and Phil Daigle said in an interview once that they wouldn't want to make a BG3 in IE, but rather in the D:OS engine. And then there was the recent-ish twitter post by (I think) Phil where he said something of 3D animating horses. IE already has horse sprites. Why would they be working on 3D animating horses if they are using IE?
As for possible sales, this is of course up to anyone's guess, since we do not know the sales figures of SoD or the current gen games. I just know that I personally know way more people who bought D:OS2 at launch than people who bought either of the EEs or SoD. D:OS2 is imo rather obviously a very important step forward in the genre and I am positive that it's at least partially setting the new benchmark for financers.
Either way, I stand by everything I said in my initial post. We'll not get to see an IE BG3 any time soon. I mean, you guys keep on believing if you want, but you are only setting yourselves up for a disapointment.
I really like the idea of a BG3 that follows a new protagonist that deals with the actual choices YOU made with YOUR charname throughout the saga. Cities overrun with vampires or thieves or ascension of a new god of murder or demon cults that went unchecked. Doppelgänger hordes and illithid plots and beholder deities and a million different stories that charname affected.
I’m not a writer/designer so I’m not doing the idea justice. I just think it would be cool to have a new party deal with the aftermath of the bhaalspawn saga.
But there is NO WHERE TO GO with a BG3. All options that I have ever heard require alienating whole swaths of the playerbase. I really enjoy ToB and the ending it brings, and I would never be okay with any developer deciding that the decisions I made didn't matter. Chose to remain mortal? Too bad! Charname was a god all along! What's that? You ascended as the evil god of Murder? Too bad! Charname was good all along and you start the game as the god of fluffy bunnies! Seriously, where could the series possibly go without retconning or flat out ignoring this story that is supposedly so beloved after 15+ years?
I like the ending of TOB too, but that's not the reason to say there can't be a continuation of sorts.
The Bhaalspawn saga is over, I agree. But other people's stories didn't finish at the same time. Simply change who the charname is for the narrative. People will still relate to the new "charname" as they will create he/she themselves.
The games are played multiple times, and each time players create a new charname (judging that by what people post on this forum). So why the sudden difficulty with having a different charname for a new adventure? It's what players do all the time.
When they added new EE adventures to TOB it didn't cause any problems with their contracts. It didn't ruin the story or cause the sky to fall. Would it really be that hard to add new areas and story to TOB just like they already did with the enhanced edition? They could add areas and paths that lead you to new cities and fill in a much more detailed story that actually involves fighting the armies of the 5 without even changing the original locations and bhaaspawn boss battles. I could easily write a scenario that would add 150 hours worth of gameplay to TOB without changing anything that is already there. I don't see why it's so hard to imagine a 3rd game that simply makes TOB an actual third game. I am pretty sure Beamdog could come up with a good story and pull it off without destroying the original intent of TOB. Either way TOB is already here and nobody is keeping you from playing it. All I am saying is that I would rather have another Baldur's Gate game instead of a run of the mill game that seem to pop up all the time now.
That wouldn't be a BG3, that would be a BG2 expansion. I was only speaking of a BG3.
Also, ToB already got the EE treatment with new areas and quests. I think it's time Beamdog moved on (which they obviously already did). Leave the BGs alone. There is only so much one could and should ad before diluting the drink too much.
It would turn TOB into BG3 which I used to think that is what people wanted. Either way it's no skin off my back if Beamdog wants to throw their efforts into a more modern game. It's chances of being anywhere near as fun as BG3 are slim in my opinion because you can't make a modern epic in a new engine without lots of money and a huge team which isn't going to happen in the real world . I am glad I got SOD and some expansion content. It's better than nothing.
To elevate ToB into sequel status, the game would need to get some serious rearranging and rewriting. Which, last time I checked, is something that WotC also forbid (Beamdog are allowed to ad stuff, but can't take out or change any existing stuff.)
What I took away from the original post is wether or not it's likely we are gonna get any more BG content. Which it's not. It's anything but likely. Wanting something to happen doesn't mean it will happen.
You're right, it probably won't happen but I certainly hope it does. I can already imagine how to pull it off given their limitations. I am positive Beamdog could do it if they wanted to. They would have to add areas and cut scenes in some spots but they could eventually lead you off to a huge city with an open structure that allows you to rally an army for your cause and fight your way towards Yaga before Ellisem reminds you that you must go to the grove and you get sucked into the pocket plane. You would still transport into the city and find Yaga's weakness. Your team would still go after his heart while your army continues to battle toward him. Then your team would face off against him outside the city walls just like in TOB. It could be left totally intact. I would love to see the ground open up and hoards of Drow and orcs attack your army on your way to face off with Sendai.
Something I'd like to see is nighttime war setting. Where fire balls light the sky and you have to use torches to give you limited visibility. Maybe you and a team of thieves could sneak into the enemy camps and find information or poison supplies. I think Beamdog's work in SOD was a step in the right direction gameplay wise. It didn't feel the same as Baldur's Gate or Icewind dale. It was original and fun.
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But yeah, even if so, the solution would be: do it better
Like I said, I would be more than happy to support them and see what they have regarding a new original game but Beamdog are the only ones that can add expansions to my favorite game series of all time and there are multiple other game studios that are making original new isometric Baldur's gate style experiences.
I tried POE and saw that it had some value in certain areas but it did not scratch my itch for this original game series.
For me, the fact that the itch still exists for a game series of its age even after playing its younger, flashier descendant, speaks volumes about its ongoing worth and viability.
Another direct entry in the BG series wouldn't make sense. The story is wrapped up. Making another sequel would either mean
A. focusing on a new protagonist, which would be breaking with the spirit of the series,
B. doing a soft redcon of the ToB ending, making sure the protagonist is depowered in some contrived way which wouldn't sit well with many players (for good reason) or
C. actually taking into account all three different endings, which would be really hard to pull off in a non-contrived way and even then would probably be really bad for the budged, since effectively two/three different story lines would need to be written.
As for another IE game, as much as we all like IE here, it has no viability on the modern market. The engine is old, the presentation is subpar. The potential audience is too small, so the budget would be too small to produce the type of game we'd all want.
Which brings me to the spiritual successors, which a bunch of people here have already mentioned aparently. Aside from the actual writing, level designs and all that stuff, modern engines as a viable successor to the Infinity Engine are still in a trial and error phase. The issue with the Unity builds Obsidian used for Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny make look great, but they have some serious issues that ultimately let's them never get on the same level as BG and co.: 1. Lack of modability and 2. way too long loading times. Also, I must say that the games come off as way more hardware hungry than they honestly should have any right to be. I mean, they are pretty, but they backgrounds present themselves in 2D. Having the backgrounds in large parts being real-time rendered 3D bits is bad for the performance. (Take this bit with a grain of salt, I am not a programmer or 3D engineer or anything.)
Then there's the Divinity: Original Sin series. Which comes along with a seemingly powerful machinery behind it's pretty colours. The first game lacked depths and good writing, among other things, but the second game more than made up for it. It's still not perfect and the story is still not as memorable as BG's or PS:T's ever will be, but it's not trying to be. D:OS is focused on multiplayer and tries to be more like Neverwinter Nights than anything else, if you ask me.
(I have barely played Torment: Tides of Numenera, so no comment on that.)
So. What this genre really needs is a powerful, versatile and moddable (seriously, I can't stress enough how frickin important moddability is) engine/ engine build that can take over for IE. And then this engine needs to be given into the hands of a skilled team of inspired devs. Inspired is the important part here. Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment are very deeply inspired games. What people tend to forget is that these two games where cases of the stars aligning perfectly at the right moment. It is really hard to top what these two games achieved.
Which is where Tyranny and the D:OS series come into play. PoE tried way too hard to emulate the games of yesteryear without actually trying anything really new or interesting. Tyranny brought the fresh new setting and the uncommon narrative structure of a black & grey morality. D:OS brought the technical innovation.
So in regards to "the next Baldur's Gate": I think the logical next step would be a new series, with the D&D license and a fresh engine. A new series that can stand on it's own and instead of being another "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate" it would be "the next D&D game". And maybe we get extra lucky and get a setting that doesn't equate to "medieval central europe with orcs and elves"
My personal preferences are at odds with several statements in the post above but I agree that it does all come down to money .... (making projects possible and viable)
Didn't SOD do well commercially ?
I'd be surprised that they were making an effort to port to IOS as well if it did so badly ....
And I think BD made a critical mistake in its roll out of BGEE and it was a mistake made with the very same assumption made here, i.e., that the audience for an IE game is the modding community . . . BD did not test the game on crappy laptops. The sort of POS laptops that non gamers own so they can open their browsers and MS word.
I was one of the people who waited *forever* for BD to rewrite the graphics renderer to handle my terrible intel chip. I get that Intel bears the burden of responsibility because they don't follow open standards but, still, the roll out was flawed because BD chose testers from the modding community when the audience was much larger than that.
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In real life I drive a car from the 1960s that I've modified to be as reliable as any modern car. Sort of. It always runs and gets me to work. But the list of mod cons it lacks is impressive: No power steering. Suspension is joke. Steers like a bus. Heater is barely adequate. No air conditioning. No power windows. AM radio. Needs a tune up every 3,000 miles. You get the picture.
No modern car company would build a car like mine today. Yet, every time I stop for gas I get someone who wants to ask me questions about it -- it's actually a little annoying when I'm running late for work. And I get a note on the window with offers to buy the car about once a month.
And there are people who make a decent living selling parts for my car. And people make money selling upgrades. And people who specialize in body work . . .
So I think there is an untapped audience for "classic" game engines just like there is an audience for classic cars. Just as some people are happy driving without power steering, so it is that some people are fine playing games that don't require periodic hardware upgrades. I think the BD sales numbers are artificially low because of (a) mistakes that Beamdog made and (b) a completely undeserved attack on BD by the alt right.
It seems clear to me that if BD is going to produce another D&D game that is what we are going to get. But, again, I think someone could make a living off of producing new IE games. If I had money I put my money where my mouth is.
Beamdog are a small indie team. Working with the infinity engine is a blessing for them because they don't have the cash or a large enough team to build an epic like Baldur's Gate in a modern engine. Beamdog is made up of old Baldur's Gate developers and Infinity engine modders who are all fans of Baldur's Gate. They would be taking advantage of their strengths and minimizing their weakness by building a Baldur's Gate game in the infinity engine. Beamdog is pretty much a dreamteam developer for a Baldur's Gate title in the infinity engine. This would be our last chance as fans to experience an infinity engine title and the 2E rules on a new game. It would also be the last chance that anyone will ever make Baldur's Gate a proper trilogy.
Your thoughts on Baldurs Gate 3 seem narrow minded to me. Beamdog could simply reinstate the SOA XP cap and when you beat Irenicus you would see this:
Continue to TOB, 1999, 60 Hours?
Continue to Baldur's Gate 3 2019, 200 hours?
That's all they need to do. Watchers Keep can be played in SOA and the original TOB is still purchasable un-modified if fans want it and can even be played in the EE's in an unmodded state. Baldur's Gate 3 would start with your imported level 18 team and could go all the way up to level 50 with new HLAs in a completely new city with new wilderness to explore and a completely original story and ending.
They re-created parts of Baldur's Gate city and added new characters and missions within the city during SOD so if they really wanted to they could recreate parts of TOB and change it so that the existing areas are only a small part of a larger campaign where you actually fight the armies of the 5 instead of just having show downs with the bhaalspawns that lead them. Remember this would not be TOB, that game would still be available on it's own. Like SOD they could build onto the world and incorporate small parts of TOB if they wanted to go that route. The original ending might be a little easy since you would be level 50 instead of level 40 but they already added LOB mode and they could add alternate endings that are brutal hard even for a level 50 party. Personally, I liked TOB but I would rather them just pretend it didn't happen and build a full fledged 3rd game.
Beamdog have plenty of options for making Baldur's Gate 3 and I guarantee it would be more fun than any of these new games trying to copy the original Baldur's gate formula. SOD had the gameplay and the graphics. It was pinched between two games and some didn't like the writing but now they have David Guider and Baldur's Gate 3 could stand completely on it's own with nothing holding it down outside of a small transition after SOA.
I would call it Baldur's Gate 3: The Armies Of The Five. The cover art would be a huge burning Gate Spell with a new improved, final Slayer form standing in the middle. Each of the 5 points of the pentagram would lead to one of the 5 armies and the blood from all of the armies would be the gate spell that resurrects Bhall. The engine is already tooled up for better graphics and huge army battles. It would easily beat any of the games that have come out in the last 15 years. They could make up new villains and give them different names and focus the game on being the champion of your own army and fighting the armies of the five most powerful bhaalspawns. Or they could simply do a completely original story that has nothing to do with the five bhaal spawn or five armies. Either way it would be killer and I would rather Beamdog focus on that than anything else. Of course if they need to make some original games in order to get the money and the team down to pull off BG3 I would be cool with that. I am all for supporting Beamdog with whatever they choose to do in the future.
Continue to TOB, 1999, 60 Hours?
Continue to Baldur's Gate 3 2019, 200 hours?
That's all they need to do. Watchers Keep can be played in SOA and the original TOB is still purchasable un-modified if fans want it and can even be played in the EE's in an unmodded state. Baldur's Gate 3 would start with your imported level 18 team and could go all the way up to level 50 with new HLAs in a completely new city with new wilderness to explore and a completely original story and ending."
WHY!? Oh yes, lets just retcon the enitre climax of BG and undo all of the themes and stories that were building up to it. That is hands down, the WORST idea for a BG3 I have ever heard. I have yet to see any kind of continuation of the bhallspawn's saga, that doesn't either retcon huge swaths of story, make half of the player base's endgame choice pointless, or re-tread ground already covered by the existing games. THERE IS ZERO GOOD REASON FOR THERE TO BE A BG3.
@killerrabbit The Infinity Engine if too restrictive. So many things are hardcoded that there can't really be new features added to it. So many things that people wish they could do, can't even be modded because its such a poorly constructed engine. BG is good DESPITE its engine, not BECAUSE of. I mean, these games are over 15 years old at this point and technically unimpressive. The series is good because of its its heart, that you can feel in the writing and characters. There was love that went into crafting it, despite limitations. A new, better engine, would not prevent any if that from happening.
The good reason for there to be a BG3 is because we would actually like a fun game instead of what is coming out these days. If you don't like the infinity engine anymore and don't want to play more Baldurs gate that is fine. Plenty of new games like POE are out there for you to play and plenty of game developers with multi million dollar kickstarter campaigns are making new games with new engines and new rules.
To belabor the analogy -- you will never get a decent air conditioning system into a 1960s car. You simply need a modern computer to do right. And for some people this makes a 1960s car out of the question.
And yet, there are some wackos out there that prefer no air conditioning, manual shifting cars to modern cars with all of their conveniences. So many people that I cannot stop for gas without getting into a discussion about my car. Truly.
And so it is with the IE engine. I loved the PoE story. PoE's story was better than BG's. Hands down the best story in a video game. Evar. And the graphics were better. And the sound was good. Portraits were brilliant . . .
Annnnnd, with all of that, the game simply doesn't have the same feel as an IE game. I -- and some others -- prefer a game with an IE feel to a game with superior graphics and inferior combat.
Is it possible for Beamdog to replicate the IE feel with the Unreal engine? Time will tell but Obsidian told us that they had achieved that with Unity engine I simply disagree.
I am not saying I want to play nothing but the infinity engine forever. I am just saying that plenty of other developers are already doing new things and I would like to get a little more content for Baldur's Gate from Beamdog since they are in a position to do so. If that means an expansion pack for SOA or Baldur's Gate 3... I would be happy either way.
1. Plenty of room to add quests story to ToB. I don't see why you couldn't put something between the destruction of the city and the killing of the five.
2. Good ideas abound for the story after ascension:
a. Let's take on cyric
b. Let's subdue the Throne of Bhall and make the Throne of Charname. How do you establish yourself as young god in the pantheon? Do you take up the mantle of murder? The god of life changing events? Euthanasia? The dusk lord aspect of the god of the sun?
c. New god needs allies -- I bet if we rescued Waukeen she would help us against Cyric
3. What about the child of charname?
or
4. What about an adventure that starts in a city called Baldurs Gate?
5. What about the mess that charname left behind? I'm sure that one ring needs to be destroyed. The city is teaming with vampires that Bodhi made. Perhaps the Order has decided that the shadow thieves are so weak that they can be driven from the city -- do you help the paladins or the assassins? Some needs to reestablish a harper base . . .
Absolutely agree here, there is plenty of room for new things in ToB.
"2. Good ideas abound for the story after ascension:"
What about the players who don't ascend? This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Are we gonna just go "Nope, you played wrong" to about half the playerbase?
"3. What about the child of charname?"
This again assumes, that someone's charname had a romance. Also, which romance do you choose as canon? Have you seen some of the arguments that come about over who is supposedly the best romance? This is even worse than point 2 above, as you are GUARANTEED to piss off at least 75% of players.
"5. What about the mess that charname left behind? I'm sure that one ring needs to be destroyed. The city is teaming with vampires that Bodhi made. Perhaps the Order has decided that the shadow thieves are so weak that they can be driven from the city -- do you help the paladins or the assassins? Some needs to reestablish a harper base . . . "
I have no complaints here. There are some great things that can be explored outside of charname. My problem with it is calling it "Baldur's Gate 3". The Baldur's Gate saga is about one thing, a mortal struggling against a heritage that threatens to consume them. When you take this character out, its not Baldur's Gate anymore. Its a sequel in name only. At that point, its just an all new game that really shouldn't hold the Baldur's Gate name. That story is well and truely closed.
One that might actually feel like a BG game rather than IWD.
Non linear, a different part of realms, more adventures with your trusty companions, more adventures to try out with different parties, more adventures to play solo, or no reload, or however else people keep on playing this game.
Well written, stories/quests that are satisfying to complete.
That's all I ever wanted. And probably the easiest thing to deliver.
Instead we got SOD.
Crazy decision, take the parts that are the least satisfying of BG and SOA and build a game based on those rather than the bits that drive so many discussions, so much interest, so much player involvement.
Somebody bothers to create a mod that removes "Chateau Irenicus" because it's so tiresome, such a bright idea to start SOD in a compulsory dungeon???
They must have been drunk, it's the only plausible explaination.
3. Well, never question the ability of people to make themselves unhappy but these seem like relatively simple technical fixes. PC elves / half elves romanced Jaheria / Aerie or Viconia. Half orcs, Dorn. Humans, Raasad or Corwin. Gnomes PCs are the product of one too many beers for Glint and Dwarves and halflings are the product of dalliance with that cute barkeep . . .
The point is we don't know the sex / race of charname so he / she is whatever race the new charname is.
2. Well cannon already says that he didn't choose godhood so this is all alternative universe stuff anyway.
1. We agree. Woot! Attention Beamdog. ThacoBell and I agree and you are thereby obligated to expand ToB. Please let us know when you plan to live up to this obligation.
I never said that an IE BG3 is impossible to pull of. I just said that doing it proper justice is very hard to pull of. No matter what plot hooks you can go up, actually writing a fully fledged game would be a narrative design nightmare. I stand by that.
Baldur's Gate stayed alive thanks to the modding community. There is no doubt about that. Not everyone is a modder, of course, but I am taking a wild guess and assume that the largest part of the consistent player base (aka the people who actually keep playing the game post-release) all use mods. Literally the biggest argument critics and players alike made against the EEs is that people could just play the original with mods. Also, the active forum community is tiny. Even if all of us where guaranteed to buy three copies of a hypothetical BG3, that would still not be enough of a budget to make the type of game we could all be satisfied with. You guys are really underestimating just how damn expensive it is to make a game.
Oh yeah, also, the entire reason why SoD was an expansion instead of a stand alone game, was that Wizards of the Coast forbade Beamdog to make a stand-alone game with anything else than 5e rules. So making BG3 would require the game to have 5e rules, which means that IE would need to be completely readjusted. I am pretty sure that at that point switching to a more customisable engine would be the smarter thing to do. And also also, Trent Oster and Phil Daigle said in an interview once that they wouldn't want to make a BG3 in IE, but rather in the D:OS engine. And then there was the recent-ish twitter post by (I think) Phil where he said something of 3D animating horses. IE already has horse sprites. Why would they be working on 3D animating horses if they are using IE?
As for possible sales, this is of course up to anyone's guess, since we do not know the sales figures of SoD or the current gen games. I just know that I personally know way more people who bought D:OS2 at launch than people who bought either of the EEs or SoD. D:OS2 is imo rather obviously a very important step forward in the genre and I am positive that it's at least partially setting the new benchmark for financers.
Either way, I stand by everything I said in my initial post. We'll not get to see an IE BG3 any time soon. I mean, you guys keep on believing if you want, but you are only setting yourselves up for a disapointment.
I’m not a writer/designer so I’m not doing the idea justice. I just think it would be cool to have a new party deal with the aftermath of the bhaalspawn saga.
The Bhaalspawn saga is over, I agree. But other people's stories didn't finish at the same time.
Simply change who the charname is for the narrative.
People will still relate to the new "charname" as they will create he/she themselves.
The games are played multiple times, and each time players create a new charname (judging that by what people post on this forum).
So why the sudden difficulty with having a different charname for a new adventure?
It's what players do all the time.
Also, ToB already got the EE treatment with new areas and quests. I think it's time Beamdog moved on (which they obviously already did). Leave the BGs alone. There is only so much one could and should ad before diluting the drink too much.
What I took away from the original post is wether or not it's likely we are gonna get any more BG content. Which it's not. It's anything but likely. Wanting something to happen doesn't mean it will happen.
Something I'd like to see is nighttime war setting. Where fire balls light the sky and you have to use torches to give you limited visibility. Maybe you and a team of thieves could sneak into the enemy camps and find information or poison supplies. I think Beamdog's work in SOD was a step in the right direction gameplay wise. It didn't feel the same as Baldur's Gate or Icewind dale. It was original and fun.