Luck (and bards)
Pantalion
Member Posts: 2,137
Luck, it's an undeniably powerful mechanic, decreasing enemy max damage by 1, increasing your minimum damage by 1, giving you +1s to saving throws, to hit rolls, and, depending on the particular source, also increasing thieving skills by 5.
But how exactly does it work? +1 per luck to d20 rolls like to hit and saving throws seems obvious, but how about damage?
a) All rolls you make get +1, all enemy damage rolls get -1, respecting minimums.
The strongest possibility, not only does this increase your maximum damage, it also makes it much more likely to get a maximum damage roll.
Luck+1 with 1D6 becomes: 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 6 giving a 4.333 average roll, while an enemy's 1D6 becomes 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 giving a 2.666 average roll.
Luck +3 (a singing bard without epic bard song) with 1D6 becomes 4, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, giving a 5.5 average damage roll, while an enemy D6 becoes 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, giving an average 1.5 damage.
b) Maximum dice range is changed.
Instead of changing the result, the die type changes. 1D6 becomes 1D5+1, enemy 1D6 becomes 1D5. This is effectively the same as rerolling any 1s or 6s.
This possibility gives the results you'd "expect". 1
Luck +1: D6's average damage becomes 4 (average of 1D5+1), Enemy 1D6's average damage also becomes 3 (average of 1D5).
Luck +3 turns 1D6 into 1D3+3 or 1D3, giving 5 average damage, and receives 2 average damage.
So each 1 luck = +0.5 damage dealt, -0.5 damage less damage taken on average regardless of damage size, very neat and tidy.
c) Only Minimum and maximum results are amended.
The weakest possibility, instead of a flat bonus or changing the die type, only the minimum and maximum "allowed" roll is changed to the accepted minimum.
Luck+1 with 1D6 becomes effectively 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 giving an average 3.666 damage (very slightly more than the regular 3.5 average on 1D6), while enemy rolls become 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 3.333 damage.
Luck+3 1D6 becomes 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, giving an average 4.5 damage, receiving 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3 average 2.5 damage.
So to those in the know, or willing to engage in extensive testing, which is it? A),
or C)?
Everyone else: unkitted Bardsong gives a +3 luck bonus at level 21, and whichever of the above is involved, this luck bonus increases every single die rolled, whether it's your warrior's 2D4 Bastard Sword (always hits for maximum 8 damage)or your mage's 20D10 Dragon's Breath (average damage A) 158 140 C) 122 vs 110), or enemy mage's Dragon's Breath (A) 60, 80 C) 98 vs 110) or Bastard Sword (always rolls 2).
Meanwhile the enhanced HLA or Skald is a straight bonus to AC, Hit, and weapon damage only, with no penalty to enemy damage dealt. Do you still think it's a no brainer to play a kit or a Skald in favour of a regular, kitless, bard? How about "upgrade" with the HLA?
But how exactly does it work? +1 per luck to d20 rolls like to hit and saving throws seems obvious, but how about damage?
a) All rolls you make get +1, all enemy damage rolls get -1, respecting minimums.
The strongest possibility, not only does this increase your maximum damage, it also makes it much more likely to get a maximum damage roll.
Luck+1 with 1D6 becomes: 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 6 giving a 4.333 average roll, while an enemy's 1D6 becomes 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 giving a 2.666 average roll.
Luck +3 (a singing bard without epic bard song) with 1D6 becomes 4, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, giving a 5.5 average damage roll, while an enemy D6 becoes 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, giving an average 1.5 damage.
b) Maximum dice range is changed.
Instead of changing the result, the die type changes. 1D6 becomes 1D5+1, enemy 1D6 becomes 1D5. This is effectively the same as rerolling any 1s or 6s.
This possibility gives the results you'd "expect". 1
Luck +1: D6's average damage becomes 4 (average of 1D5+1), Enemy 1D6's average damage also becomes 3 (average of 1D5).
Luck +3 turns 1D6 into 1D3+3 or 1D3, giving 5 average damage, and receives 2 average damage.
So each 1 luck = +0.5 damage dealt, -0.5 damage less damage taken on average regardless of damage size, very neat and tidy.
c) Only Minimum and maximum results are amended.
The weakest possibility, instead of a flat bonus or changing the die type, only the minimum and maximum "allowed" roll is changed to the accepted minimum.
Luck+1 with 1D6 becomes effectively 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 giving an average 3.666 damage (very slightly more than the regular 3.5 average on 1D6), while enemy rolls become 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 3.333 damage.
Luck+3 1D6 becomes 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, giving an average 4.5 damage, receiving 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3 average 2.5 damage.
So to those in the know, or willing to engage in extensive testing, which is it? A),
or C)?Everyone else: unkitted Bardsong gives a +3 luck bonus at level 21, and whichever of the above is involved, this luck bonus increases every single die rolled, whether it's your warrior's 2D4 Bastard Sword (always hits for maximum 8 damage)
140 C) 122 vs 110) 80 C) 98 vs 110) Meanwhile the enhanced HLA or Skald is a straight bonus to AC, Hit, and weapon damage only, with no penalty to enemy damage dealt. Do you still think it's a no brainer to play a kit or a Skald in favour of a regular, kitless, bard? How about "upgrade" with the HLA?
Post edited by Pantalion on
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I do consider it a no-brainer to pick the Enhanced Bard Song HLA or high-level Skald song in lieu of a normal bard song, despite the EE buff to the latter (unless we're talking about IWD where you get multiple different bard songs, all of them useful and arguably superior to a Skald's). The flat bonuses of the Skald song and EBS are nearly always superior to the luck bonuses, unless for some reason you have a party that is extremely vulnerable to spell damage. But enemy spell damage plays a rather small role in the IE games compared to other threats.
Shame. Even if it just granted -3 Saves it would have made a serious reason to play a bard.
Luck is added/subtracted as a modifier to the roll, just like any other modifier, except that it's value cannot exceed the difference between the rolled value and the minimum/maximum possible values.
It does not alter the range of rolled values, you can still roll a 1 with +20 luck, otherwise it would influence critical hits/misses. Luck affects outgoing attack(weapon) damage, incoming effect(on-hit/spell) damage. Your luck won't affect the damage you deal with Dragon's Breath, or the damage you take from a Bastard sword.
Edit: Oh! And Mage/Cleric. And any Dual into Mage. And let's not get into the Gnomes...
@Pantalion: If you install the IWDification mod, I believe you can give IWD bard songs to unkitted BG bards. Tymora's melody grants the +3 bonus to saving throws you may be looking for.
Concerning IWD bard songs through IWDification : it works, but the songs are a bit buggy. They require some work with NearInfinity. The Siren's Yearning is completely broken in the mod, for instance.
Specialist mage. Level 9:
Stoneskin + Mirror Images = 4 skins, 5 images average. 8 hits. No need to keep AC high because Sarevok barely takes damage from fire shields, so 0 AC Potion of Defence, -4 Dex, -3 Blur, -4 Improved Invisibility, -3 Golden Girdle, -2 Ring of Protection, -1 Knave's Robe = -16 AC.
Sarevok has a -9 THAC0 and 3 APR. He needs a 8 to hit. he takes an average <2 layers off of defences per round, taking let's say four rounds to pierce the Mage's everything.
Zeroth Round: Magic Missile as he charges. 5D4+5 damage = 17.5 damage. Mage has 10 Magic Missiles memorised, because Sarevok has no MR and no resistance to Magic damage as far as I recall.
First Round: 3 Images left. Magic Missile. = 35 damage.
Second Round: 2 Images left, 3 skins. Magic Missile. = 52.5 damage.
Third Round: 0 Images, 2 skins. Mirror Image = 5 average images. Mage has 3 more of these memorised, since their amulet is the Amplifier.
Fourth Round: 3 Images, 2 skins. Magic Missile = 70 damage.
Fifth Round: 1 Images, 2 skins. Mirror Image = 5 average images. 2 left.
Sixth Round: 3 Images, 1 skins. Stoneskins = 4 skins, no need to take any risks whatsoever, and Sarevok is rolling above average this fight. One more stoneskins memorised.
Seventh Round: 1 Image, 4 skins. Magic Missile = 87.5 damage.
Eighth Round: 0 Images, 2 skins. Mirror Image = 5 average images. 1 left.
Ninth Round: 3 Images, 2 skins. Magic Missile = 105 damage.
Tenth Round: 1 Image, 1 skin. Lesser Sequencer: Magic Missile, Magic Missile = 140 damage. Sarevok is dead, mage has one mirror image, one stoneskins, 4 magic missiles, forgot that they were holding nine mini meteors they could throw between castings, and decided their sequence would be Magic Missiles instead of Mirror Image + Invisibility for a free reskin and magic missile, and forgot that Balduran's Cloak could have given them another stacking point of AC. Total HP lost: Probably zero.
Mages that can't do this: Enchanter, Abjurer, Necromancer.
Mage/Thief: Cheats and lays 5 traps beforehand, dealing 35 average damage as an introduction to offset their lower average Magic Missile damage (14), thereby killing Sarevok in just as few castings. Also wears a +1 Buckler to drop Sarevok to even fewer layers per round, because they're too man to wield "Twinkle".
Mage/Cleric: Wears a +2 shield and the helm of Balduran for -20 AC, and then starts with DUHM for -21 AC, also swings their hammer, because with a potion of Haste, 21 Strength and a +2 Hammer they have a THAC0 of 10 against -5 AC giving them around four hits over the ten rounds at 14 minimum damage each to help them offset that -3.5 average damage per magic missile.
Neither of these have a spare stoneskins, so they're cutting it a little finer than the pure mage, but the earlier up front damage for having better melee options and snares makes the combat a little quicker.
F/M/T has the worst time of it since they don't get stoneskin, giving them only the three Mirror Images for defence.
Drink a potion of giant strength (let's say the 23 strength one), a potion of heroism, and wield Drizzt's Twinkle and Fairycake scimitars with Legacy of the Masters and the funky hat: 1.5 APR at 3 THAC0, 1 APR at 7 THAC0. They don't use DUHM because who needs 25 strength. Their AC = -19, so Sarevok still takes off about 2 layers per round, but they're definitely going to lose HP, which is 56 on average.
Attacks: 0.6 and 0.4 chance of connecting per round, let's count each time it hits 1 as a successful hit.
Zeroth round: They trap too, for 35 damage. 3D4+3 damage = 10.5 damage (they only have 8 magic missiles with Evermemory) 45.5 total damage so far.
First round: 3 images left. Vampiric Touch = 10.5 average damage. HP total: 66. 2 hits: 0.6 forehand, 0.4 offhand. All miss.
Second round: 2 images left, F/M/T loses 21.5 HP. HP total: 44.5. 3 hits: 1.8 forehand, 0.8 offhand. Magic Missile and 1 successful hit (23.5 damage) = 90 damage dealt so far, Sarevok has 45 HP left.
Third round: 0 images left, F/M/T loses 21.5 HP. HP total: 23.5. 2 hits: 1.6 forehand, 1.2 offhand. Mirror Image: 5 images left. two successful hits = 20-27 damage each, dealing 47 damage average, killing Sarevok.
Also pretend I remembered that Potion of Heroism adds HP during that breakdown.
Finally, F/M has stone skins, mirror images, and deals more magic missile damage than the F/M/T and a lower THAC0. Their fight takes longer without early snares, but ultimately works out safer overall and with potentially no HP lost.
So yeah, pretty much any multiclass containing "Mage" can pull off a zero kiting kill against Sarevok as well.
@histamiini That sounds more like the goblet is soloing Sarevok and not the class.
Beamdog went further than just fixing it. They added a double Luck spell effect. Which makes it insanely good for a thief. Made Alora the best thief in BG1, because of it.
It does not alter the range of rolled values, you can still roll a 1 with +20 luck, otherwise it would influence critical hits/misses.
Sorry I don't quite understand the statement, if one rolls a 1 with +20 luck, what will be the displayed value, and what're the actual effects of 1 with 20 luck?
Also by mentioning +20 luck I assume its range is from -20 to +20 ?
Yeah I would like to see video of a Blade taking on LoB + SCS Sarevok without gear, that would be awesome!
Rolling a 2 with 20 luck will get +18 to the roll, making it a non-critical 20. It would be pretty much best in slot for anyone, thief or otherwise if you could amputate the halfling.
Almost Legacy of the Masters level damage bonus (except also to healing).
Almost Dale Protectors level accuracy bonus (except to all attacks).
Almost Bastila's Passport level damage resistance (except to all elements, including magic damage, and depends on the damage die).
Guard's Ring level save bonus (that stacks with Guard's Ring).
+10% all thief skills is delicious gravy on top. I think the only class that could maybe pull off a naked Sarevok fight by the BG1 cap would be the sorcerer, maybe a mage, and even then it would involve some cheese.
Rolling a 1 with 20 luck will be a critical miss, but get a +19 to the (failed) roll.
Rolling a 2 with 20 luck will get +18 to the roll, making it a non-critical 20.
Hi,
So basically, luck doesn't affect critical miss/hit rate, when one rolls a 1, it's guaranteed miss no matter the luck.
But what'll be the number displayed in-game, is the attacker's roll number before or after luck is implemented?
How this would be displayed, not at my BG computer, but I rather assume it will be rolled into the added modifiers, with the die roll itself unchanged.
So:
If you had 25 Strength it would be:
1 + 14 (Critical Miss)
10 + 14 (hit or miss, depending on THAC0)
20 + 14 (Critical Hit).
Because Strength bonus isn't capped by maximum die roll it rolls the same either way.
The bonus from Luck, on the other hand, is capped, so it would presumably be:
Roll: 1 + 19 (Critical Miss)
Roll 10 + 10 (hit or miss, depending on THAC0)
Roll: 20 + 0 (Critical Hit)
And 25 Strength and 20 Luck would be 1 + 33, 10 + 24, 20 + 14.
Of course if someone wants to check on how it actually displays (which would involve a luck spell and three rounds of punching a partymate to compare roll results) I'm happy to be corrected.
In the original PnP version, Blade was basically a trickster. A character who is good to make enemies believe is a competent fighter (all the spins only have effect if the enemies fail their saves), rather than a real fighter.