Wouldn't say it doesn't matter..it might be uncomfortable though.
I'm not too worried about beamdog doing this, because well I like them and their product mostly. I just don't like this type of business move in principle and since there are actually bad re-released games out there...theres also the chance that sometimes you might end up paying for something you really don't want or has any improvements over the original. Yes....you can always wait for sales but....
I don't think taro94 did anything wrong asking about this, better sooner than later. Nor do I think referencing the crowd on gog is that good either. Just leads to frustrating generalisations. Or at least that's how I see it.
It's more of the fact your coerced in buying the EE editions of the games if you want the original versions which beamdog has done before hopefully they won't do it this time or if they do at least explain why and who's idea it was with the correct facts this time.
Most of the people making this argument already own the non-EE games.
And some of us still purchase the original games for multiple reasons and beamdog would effectively take that away with a version some of us don't need as we still run the original fine.
Most of the people making this argument already own the non-EE games.
And some of us still purchase the original games for multiple reasons and beamdog would effectively take that away with a version some of us don't need as we still run the original fine.
It sounds like you don't like or want the EEs, which makes your participation here seem strange to me.
A thing called multiboxing look it up it's quite interesting. Imagine running a full party of your own characters with ease so u can have the full multiplayer experience without relying on other people. You just use keyboard emulation so the other accounts follow the same key binds.
Yeah 6 copies of a game I don't need or want because the original runs fine.
Running multiple pcs isn't that bad as you only need one monitor as you use a monitor switch and you don't need to use a lot of hardware or even decent hardware due to running the games on min graphics options.
If you buy one copy from GoG, you can install and run it on six different computers simultaneously. If you are the only user, I believe this is legal.
I still believe Beamdog should allow users to buy the original and enhanced editions separately, though - in order to cater to every need. They could then offer a third option: Buy BOTH versions together at a discount, in case somebody wanted or needed both.
I guess because I'm not pro beamdog means I'm not welcome lol it's the same garbage at gog about beamdog it's no different. (I'm not pro Gog either) If I've purchased products from beamdog I have the right to be critical of said products to an extent if they listen or take action is completely different.
Because I own multiple copies of the original for my own reasons surely I can express my opinions on a game I've owned since released and supported and beamdog have made an EE version of said game and they might take away the chance I have to buy only the original and have to buy a simplified modded version for a much higher price. Seems fair?
but why do you need that many copies when you can just install the one you have on multiple systems? i'm preety sure this game does not have limited activation's for installs.
but why do you need that many copies when you can just install the one you have on multiple systems? i'm preety sure this game does not have limited activation's for installs.
If you like something you support it. Could just pirate the game for free along with every game ever released
I guess because I'm not pro beamdog means I'm not welcome lol it's the same garbage at gog about beamdog it's no different. (I'm not pro Gog either) If I've purchased products from beamdog I have the right to be critical of said products to an extent if they listen or take action is completely different.
Because I own multiple copies of the original for my own reasons surely I can express my opinions on a game I've owned since released and supported and beamdog have made an EE version of said game and they might take away the chance I have to buy only the original and have to buy a simplified modded version for a much higher price. Seems fair?
Well I mean, I don't generally hang out on forums for media I don't like, because it seems like a waste of time.
I mean it's your time to waste, I was just curious. I also didn't question your right to be here, just your reasons.
You are paying for the licence, not the game. The licence is going up in price after Beamdog purchased it.
You can choose if you want to support them or not over it. That is what your argument is coming down to.
No one says Beamdog does not have a right to remove it. They do, obviously. It doesn't change the fact there is very little reason for that move except for not wanting people to buy a cheaper version. And if that's the case, you can't really be surprised that there are people who have some strong dislike for Beamdog.
I, and many others, even in this thread, feel that removing the originals is a very anti-customer act (whether intended to be or not) with little to no justification. Even if I agree, as I do, that in case of NWN the bundling has the advantage of allowing the buyer access to 1.69 servers, no such argument can be made for the earlier cases, such as Planescape Torment which had no multiplayer whatsoever, yet was still bundled. All that makes it understandable that people think the only reason is Beamdog not wanting people to spend $10 instead of $20. I, myself, want to believe it's simply a misguided decision and nothing more, but many would probably call me gullible.
As for wanting to avoid confusion as the reason? Sorry, not buying that. If someone searches for Neverwinter Nights on GOG (or any other title that got an EE) they'll see that there are two versions available. I'd find it insulting if the original version got removed because of worries that a consumer is not smart enough to check what game they're buying. But I don't find it insulting because it's so unlikely that's the reason. Additionally, if someone gets themselves a wrong version, they can only blame themselves. On the other hand, if they can't buy their preferred version because Beamdog removed it, they have every right to blame Beamdog.
As said, I'm very excited for what Beamdog is doing. I really have some great hopes for NWN:EE. But just like I'm disturbed by GOG users spreading lies about Beamdog removing soundtracks, I'm just as concerned about some Beamdog fans defending such an unreasonable and anti-customer move.
So please, don't tell me I can simply not support Beamdog if I don't like something - I know it. Don't say it's not a national tragedy level problem and I can wait for a sale if I'm concerned about the price - I know it.
Instead, please do tell me what good intentions could cause such an undesired decision. What good will it give the customers (and what good it gave the customers of previous EEs)?
It's not justification enough that the problems resulting from that decision will affect only some people or that these consequences will be less than absolutely severe. Justification means presenting what good it does, not how little damage it does. And I've yet to hear it.
I do not see how removing a product that is no longer supported Anti-consumer.
I can not go to Microsoft and request to buy Windows XP, or even Windows 7 or 8 for that matter, regardless if these operating systems are cheaper than the Windows 10 offering.
As I said prior, you do not pay for the actual game, you pay for the licence. With Beamdog having to purchase that licence from another company they need to recoup their losses.
Someone mentioned, however I can't find it, that other games that have an updated version are not bundled and still sold seperately. But I am going to assume that those games the orginial licence holder is the one that reissued the remake, meaning they didnt have to purchase the licence ro redistribute it. These companies also could have upgraded the game for free, but chose not too and instead force their customers to buy the same game twice.
Instead of removing the orginial completely, which they have every right to do, they choose to bundle it with the EE. This bundle is only available through GoG. Tough luck if you want NWN:DE on Steam.
You'd have to dispose of half of GOG's games if you think it's OK to remove products with no active support just for the sake of it.
NWN has not been supported for a long time. No one has minded that. In fact, the community has supported it quite well over the last few years when neither BioWare nor Beamdog didn't.
And now, when a remaster is announced, someone will suddenly notice that NWN:DE is no longer supported and will make sure it's removed from the store?
Once again, a simple question with no answer as of yet: Why?
Instead of removing the orginial completely, which they have every right to do, they choose to bundle it with the EE.
And again all I get as a response is the "it's not so bad" answer, which, as I've explained in my previous post, is no justification.
That's like saying we should be grateful for the possibility of unlocking characters via gameplay in the new Battlefront 2 instead of it being available only via microtransactions. After all, EA has every right to make it microtransaction-exclusive.
Just because it could be more wrong does not make it right.
It is not like I do not understand your argument, I just personally disagree with it. Which is fine, we can agree to disagree.
I personally believe having a version of the same product that isn't supported for sale at a lower price is not beneficial to new (and old) consumers of the product.
The why goes with the licence. Why does a company need to charge more for the same product (And the EE is the same product, just am updated version of the product) instead of just supporting the older product? In Beamdog's case it is because they had to purchase the licence. You should ask this question to any company that has an unsupported version and a supported version for sale on GoG. Why are you having to pay more for a supported product? Majority of the time, it will probably have to do with a ggraphics upgrade which can cost a company a significant amount.
Removing the older version of the product does not take away choice. You are still buying the same game. And once again, you are paying for the licence, which is going up in price due to Beamdog buying it and giving the title support. A person still has ample time to purchase the game for cheaper (albeit without support) if they desire to now and will be able to get it for cheaper again down the road if they feel that licence is too expensive for what they are recieving.
Most games drop significantly in price once support from them is removed. That is due to the developers no longer having to pour resources into it and any sales after this time is just bonus. It's why NWN is cheap right now. Buying it just gives EA money for work already put into the game.
I also believe that bundling older versions with the newer versions is consumer friendly for points already made earlier in this thread as it doesnt iscolate or divide the community between new and old users and doesnt force older version players to have to update to attract these new players to their servers.
On one hand you all make valid arguments regarding not taking out the Diamond edition of NWN, but on the other not doing so would split the players base in between those who are willing to pay for the EE and those who aren't.
If the player-base is split, there is less incentive for them to improve and continue support on NWN: EE. It is the same as the physicists deciding to stick with Classical Mechanics because it is good enough for everyday application and not move on to Quantum Mechanics due to it being a more complicated interpretation of the world but also postulates the behavior of subatomic particles.
I am leaning a little towards bundling them together and remove the old, outdated (but still functioning!) version on GOG. (Don't crucify me for this)
On one hand you all make valid arguments regarding not taking out the Diamond edition of NWN, but on the other not doing so would split the players base in between those who are willing to pay for the EE and those who aren't.
If the player-base is split, there is less incentive for them to improve and continue support on NWN: EE. It is the same as the physicists deciding to stick with Classical Mechanics because it is good enough for everyday application and not move on to Quantum Mechanics due to it being a more complicated interpretation of the world but also postulates the behavior of subatomic particles.
I am leaning a little towards bundling them together and remove the old, outdated (but still functioning!) version on GOG. (Don't crucify me for this)
The player base is going to be split either way; I dare say the vast majority of people who knew about NWN and wanted to play it before the announcement of the remaster have already bought it. The thing is, some people might not mind having the option to buy the "old, outdated (but still functioning) version" and downloading mods for it. I don't know, maybe put a big fat disclaimer on the original's store page saying "THIS VERSION IS NO LONGER RECEIVING OFFICIAL TECHNICAL SUPPORT, PLEASE REFER TO A MODDING GUIDE AND THE PATCHES THAT HAVE BEEN RELEASED" or something along those lines?
I was unaware of the past practice with previous enhanced games Beamdog has undertaken, but -- having read through part of this thread -- it sounds like a good policy to bundle the newer and older game on GOG. I support it wholeheartedly. It is in Beamdog's best interest as well as the best interest of those buying the enhanced edition. As for those who prefer the older version, they still have access to it for $20 if it is worth it to them.
It seems to me this is either ( a ) a natural dislike of having the price of the old edition rise from $10 to $20, ( b ) a desire to protect the price advantage of the old edition so as not to be marginalized if one prefers it and wishes to see it dominate its niche, or ( c ) a desire to undermine the enhanced edition.
Motivations B and C tend to overlap of course. Despite being a penny pincher myself, I don't think any of the above reasons are reasonable ones to expect Beamdog to embrace.
I feel like there's mountains being made out of mole-hills here, it's kinda nuts. If you really worry about what your entertainment games costs, maybe don't invest in 15 year old games. That's my take on that end.
As for GOG and RPGCodex being filled with haters, I don't want to accuse any of them directly of this, but there's a huge toxic pool of anti-inclusive gamers that are spreading the rhetoric and convincing people, somehow, that it's the feminists, gays, transvestites, liberals, jews, muslims or any other given minority grouping's fault for why their games aren't being made right. Gaming culture itself has become a very toxic cesspit of bigoted morons nearly everywhere and I'm not really surprised the case is not quite the same here.
After all, you'd be coming to a gay video game developer and telling him to keep his games private. It's not a fun place to be in, I imagine.
I don't want to get into the politics of anything in here, but hopefully this post puts some light in why certain viewpoints, some of which you who are reading this post, may hold, are not welcome here and frankly I imagine none of us will tolerate that here either, to maintain a friendly environment towards the developers at this studio.
Be critical of what the studio produces, but don't criticize who they are as people, thanks.
I feel like there's mountains being made out of mole-hills here, it's kinda nuts. If you really worry about what your entertainment games costs, maybe don't invest in 15 year old games. That's my take on that end.
As for GOG and RPGCodex being filled with haters, I don't want to accuse any of them directly of this, but there's a huge toxic pool of anti-inclusive gamers that are spreading the rhetoric and convincing people, somehow, that it's the feminists, gays, transvestites, liberals, jews, muslims or any other given minority grouping's fault for why their games aren't being made right. Gaming culture itself has become a very toxic cesspit of bigoted morons nearly everywhere and I'm not really surprised the case is not quite the same here.
After all, you'd be coming to a gay video game developer and telling him to keep his games private. It's not a fun place to be in, I imagine.
I don't want to get into the politics of anything in here, but hopefully this post puts some light in why certain viewpoints, some of which you who are reading this post, may hold, are not welcome here and frankly I imagine none of us will tolerate that here either, to maintain a friendly environment towards the developers at this studio.
Be critical of what the studio produces, but don't criticize who they are as people, thanks.
Rest assured, in general the GOG community is, from my experience, much more friendly than Steam's and much more willing to help if you have any problems with your games, technical or other.
GOG is filled with "haters", because it's the hub of consumers who don't like many of the current practices that hurt the game industry, such as intrusive DRM. People on Steam or elsewhere don't care that much about such things, so they're less likely to pay attention to things such as the removal of games from a store for no valid reason.
Additionally, consumers on Steam do not have any games taken from their store, because the original BG, IWD, PT and NWN versions were never there to begin with, so they're even less likely to complain because of this reason. From their point of view, they only get a new game on their platform, not have another one removed.
You're saying you don't want to make it about politics, but accusing gamers of being "a toxic cesspit of bigoted morons" proved that to be a lie. I believe that actually violates this site's rules about not attacking any groups of people, but whatever. This thread was never about gays or trans in video games and it's you, the I-don't-want-to-make-it-about-politics guy who's derailing this topic.
I feel like there's mountains being made out of mole-hills here, it's kinda nuts. If you really worry about what your entertainment games costs, maybe don't invest in 15 year old games. That's my take on that end.
As for this particular quote, which is the only part of your post even remotely related to this topic - I'll give you that - an argument that lacks merit completely is very difficult to counter. Why didn't you just write "Too bad you don't like it" if you intended your post not to be constructive anyway?
I'm sorry, but you are not the judge of the value of my input, Taro94, if that is your real name.
There is no real grounds for anyone to worry, I don't see why they would request GOG to take down the old game just because they are releasing a new one. They didn't do that for any previous title and I can't recall them doing that for any other title, so it is rather groundless fear.
As the game stands right now, there is very little reason to play the old game, the old servers are difficult to find, have a poor at best security on them and all assets currently for the normal release works perfectly fine (or better) in Enhanced Edition.
My point of view was that the cost of a video game is either going to be insignificant as a luxury commodity, or you need to make informed purchases with low risk. NWN, regardless of incarnation, is going to be a bit of a risky investment. Savvy consumers know better.
Comments
I'm not too worried about beamdog doing this, because well I like them and their product mostly. I just don't like this type of business move in principle and since there are actually bad re-released games out there...theres also the chance that sometimes you might end up paying for something you really don't want or has any improvements over the original. Yes....you can always wait for sales but....
I don't think taro94 did anything wrong asking about this, better sooner than later. Nor do I think referencing the crowd on gog is that good either. Just leads to frustrating generalisations. Or at least that's how I see it.
Most of the people making this argument already own the non-EE games.
Imagine running a full party of your own characters with ease so u can have the full multiplayer experience without relying on other people. You just use keyboard emulation so the other accounts follow the same key binds.
Okay, that's a bit mean. What I'm saying is that your needs are not typical, and you still only need six copies to do what you're talking about.
Running multiple pcs isn't that bad as you only need one monitor as you use a monitor switch and you don't need to use a lot of hardware or even decent hardware due to running the games on min graphics options.
I'm not trying to challenge your right to be here, I'm just curious.
I still believe Beamdog should allow users to buy the original and enhanced editions separately, though - in order to cater to every need. They could then offer a third option: Buy BOTH versions together at a discount, in case somebody wanted or needed both.
Because I own multiple copies of the original for my own reasons surely I can express my opinions on a game I've owned since released and supported and beamdog have made an EE version of said game and they might take away the chance I have to buy only the original and have to buy a simplified modded version for a much higher price. Seems fair?
I mean it's your time to waste, I was just curious. I also didn't question your right to be here, just your reasons.
You can choose if you want to support them or not over it. That is what your argument is coming down to.
I, and many others, even in this thread, feel that removing the originals is a very anti-customer act (whether intended to be or not) with little to no justification. Even if I agree, as I do, that in case of NWN the bundling has the advantage of allowing the buyer access to 1.69 servers, no such argument can be made for the earlier cases, such as Planescape Torment which had no multiplayer whatsoever, yet was still bundled. All that makes it understandable that people think the only reason is Beamdog not wanting people to spend $10 instead of $20.
I, myself, want to believe it's simply a misguided decision and nothing more, but many would probably call me gullible.
As for wanting to avoid confusion as the reason? Sorry, not buying that. If someone searches for Neverwinter Nights on GOG (or any other title that got an EE) they'll see that there are two versions available. I'd find it insulting if the original version got removed because of worries that a consumer is not smart enough to check what game they're buying. But I don't find it insulting because it's so unlikely that's the reason. Additionally, if someone gets themselves a wrong version, they can only blame themselves. On the other hand, if they can't buy their preferred version because Beamdog removed it, they have every right to blame Beamdog.
As said, I'm very excited for what Beamdog is doing. I really have some great hopes for NWN:EE. But just like I'm disturbed by GOG users spreading lies about Beamdog removing soundtracks, I'm just as concerned about some Beamdog fans defending such an unreasonable and anti-customer move.
So please, don't tell me I can simply not support Beamdog if I don't like something - I know it.
Don't say it's not a national tragedy level problem and I can wait for a sale if I'm concerned about the price - I know it.
Instead, please do tell me what good intentions could cause such an undesired decision. What good will it give the customers (and what good it gave the customers of previous EEs)?
It's not justification enough that the problems resulting from that decision will affect only some people or that these consequences will be less than absolutely severe. Justification means presenting what good it does, not how little damage it does. And I've yet to hear it.
I can not go to Microsoft and request to buy Windows XP, or even Windows 7 or 8 for that matter, regardless if these operating systems are cheaper than the Windows 10 offering.
As I said prior, you do not pay for the actual game, you pay for the licence. With Beamdog having to purchase that licence from another company they need to recoup their losses.
Someone mentioned, however I can't find it, that other games that have an updated version are not bundled and still sold seperately. But I am going to assume that those games the orginial licence holder is the one that reissued the remake, meaning they didnt have to purchase the licence ro redistribute it. These companies also could have upgraded the game for free, but chose not too and instead force their customers to buy the same game twice.
Instead of removing the orginial completely, which they have every right to do, they choose to bundle it with the EE. This bundle is only available through GoG. Tough luck if you want NWN:DE on Steam.
NWN has not been supported for a long time. No one has minded that. In fact, the community has supported it quite well over the last few years when neither BioWare nor Beamdog didn't.
And now, when a remaster is announced, someone will suddenly notice that NWN:DE is no longer supported and will make sure it's removed from the store?
Once again, a simple question with no answer as of yet:
Why? And again all I get as a response is the "it's not so bad" answer, which, as I've explained in my previous post, is no justification.
That's like saying we should be grateful for the possibility of unlocking characters via gameplay in the new Battlefront 2 instead of it being available only via microtransactions.
After all, EA has every right to make it microtransaction-exclusive.
Just because it could be more wrong does not make it right.
I personally believe having a version of the same product that isn't supported for sale at a lower price is not beneficial to new (and old) consumers of the product.
The why goes with the licence. Why does a company need to charge more for the same product (And the EE is the same product, just am updated version of the product) instead of just supporting the older product? In Beamdog's case it is because they had to purchase the licence. You should ask this question to any company that has an unsupported version and a supported version for sale on GoG. Why are you having to pay more for a supported product? Majority of the time, it will probably have to do with a ggraphics upgrade which can cost a company a significant amount.
Removing the older version of the product does not take away choice. You are still buying the same game. And once again, you are paying for the licence, which is going up in price due to Beamdog buying it and giving the title support. A person still has ample time to purchase the game for cheaper (albeit without support) if they desire to now and will be able to get it for cheaper again down the road if they feel that licence is too expensive for what they are recieving.
Most games drop significantly in price once support from them is removed. That is due to the developers no longer having to pour resources into it and any sales after this time is just bonus. It's why NWN is cheap right now. Buying it just gives EA money for work already put into the game.
I also believe that bundling older versions with the newer versions is consumer friendly for points already made earlier in this thread as it doesnt iscolate or divide the community between new and old users and doesnt force older version players to have to update to attract these new players to their servers.
On one hand you all make valid arguments regarding not taking out the Diamond edition of NWN, but on the other not doing so would split the players base in between those who are willing to pay for the EE and those who aren't.
If the player-base is split, there is less incentive for them to improve and continue support on NWN: EE. It is the same as the physicists deciding to stick with Classical Mechanics because it is good enough for everyday application and not move on to Quantum Mechanics due to it being a more complicated interpretation of the world but also postulates the behavior of subatomic particles.
I am leaning a little towards bundling them together and remove the old, outdated (but still functioning!) version on GOG. (Don't crucify me for this)
It seems to me this is either ( a ) a natural dislike of having the price of the old edition rise from $10 to $20, ( b ) a desire to protect the price advantage of the old edition so as not to be marginalized if one prefers it and wishes to see it dominate its niche, or ( c ) a desire to undermine the enhanced edition.
Motivations B and C tend to overlap of course. Despite being a penny pincher myself, I don't think any of the above reasons are reasonable ones to expect Beamdog to embrace.
As for GOG and RPGCodex being filled with haters, I don't want to accuse any of them directly of this, but there's a huge toxic pool of anti-inclusive gamers that are spreading the rhetoric and convincing people, somehow, that it's the feminists, gays, transvestites, liberals, jews, muslims or any other given minority grouping's fault for why their games aren't being made right. Gaming culture itself has become a very toxic cesspit of bigoted morons nearly everywhere and I'm not really surprised the case is not quite the same here.
After all, you'd be coming to a gay video game developer and telling him to keep his games private. It's not a fun place to be in, I imagine.
I don't want to get into the politics of anything in here, but hopefully this post puts some light in why certain viewpoints, some of which you who are reading this post, may hold, are not welcome here and frankly I imagine none of us will tolerate that here either, to maintain a friendly environment towards the developers at this studio.
Be critical of what the studio produces, but don't criticize who they are as people, thanks.
GOG is filled with "haters", because it's the hub of consumers who don't like many of the current practices that hurt the game industry, such as intrusive DRM. People on Steam or elsewhere don't care that much about such things, so they're less likely to pay attention to things such as the removal of games from a store for no valid reason.
Additionally, consumers on Steam do not have any games taken from their store, because the original BG, IWD, PT and NWN versions were never there to begin with, so they're even less likely to complain because of this reason. From their point of view, they only get a new game on their platform, not have another one removed.
You're saying you don't want to make it about politics, but accusing gamers of being "a toxic cesspit of bigoted morons" proved that to be a lie. I believe that actually violates this site's rules about not attacking any groups of people, but whatever. This thread was never about gays or trans in video games and it's you, the I-don't-want-to-make-it-about-politics guy who's derailing this topic. As for this particular quote, which is the only part of your post even remotely related to this topic - I'll give you that - an argument that lacks merit completely is very difficult to counter. Why didn't you just write "Too bad you don't like it" if you intended your post not to be constructive anyway?
There is no real grounds for anyone to worry, I don't see why they would request GOG to take down the old game just because they are releasing a new one. They didn't do that for any previous title and I can't recall them doing that for any other title, so it is rather groundless fear.
As the game stands right now, there is very little reason to play the old game, the old servers are difficult to find, have a poor at best security on them and all assets currently for the normal release works perfectly fine (or better) in Enhanced Edition.
My point of view was that the cost of a video game is either going to be insignificant as a luxury commodity, or you need to make informed purchases with low risk. NWN, regardless of incarnation, is going to be a bit of a risky investment. Savvy consumers know better.
Also man, did I hit a nerve or what?