And what if by chance they start to play the 1.69, see that it won't get support and it dosn't work because, I don't know, NVIDIA drivers? They'll have to drop another $20.
Better pay 20 and have, like Hanna Montana said "The best of both worlds" :P
Not saying you're wrong, but I'm a supporter of freedom of choice. If they know the risk and are willing to take it, let them. If they have to drop another $20 then, it's their own fault, because it's a consequence of their choice.
That REALLY dosn't make sense: you're saying to keep 1.69 and EE separate so new buyers can play ONLY 1.69, but then if it dosn't work because incompatibilities, "your fault".
Then why not keep them in a bundle so they don't have to spend $30? By $20 you'll get EE (wich will work anyway) and 1.69 (wich may not work). I really cannot think of someone new saying "Yeah! Let's buy the old crappy unworking version so I've to downgrade my SO, Drivers and hardware to play online!"
I love all the rancor over $10 extra for a bundle. Maybe those people could get out of the basement and mow their mommy and daddy's backyard for the $10...
A pointless comment which does not bring anything valuable to this discussion.
Sorry but I get sick of the endless bitching about games in general. I can buy a game that I can enjoy for hundreds of hours for $20. That's less than I paid for Wizardry back in 1982! $20 is about what I pay for a nice steak that I enjoy for 20 minutes or so. Or I could buy one novel that I'll enjoy (or not sometimes) for a few nights and then never read it again. I just don't get the entitlement mentality of gamers. Never will...
See, that's the problem. $20 is what you pay for a nice steak. In some countries, $20 would allow you to buy 5 steaks, because dollar's value is different there. So imagine it's not about $20, but about $100 and perhaps then you'll be able to understand why for some people the $10 difference is important. And if not, at least don't derail the conversation and simply move along. Shouldn't be difficult.
That REALLY dosn't make sense: you're saying to keep 1.69 and EE separate so new buyers can play ONLY 1.69, but then if it dosn't work because incompatibilities, "your fault".
Then why not keep them in a bundle so they don't have to spend $30? By $20 you'll get EE (wich will work anyway) and 1.69 (wich may not work). I really cannot think of someone new saying "Yeah! Let's buy the old crappy unworking version so I've to downgrade my SO, Drivers and hardware to play online!"
Because it's their right to choose that option. Do they risk it not working in the future? Yes, but that risk does not need to come to fruition. To take that risk or not should be their decision alone, why should Beamdog take it for them?
I love all the rancor over $10 extra for a bundle. Maybe those people could get out of the basement and mow their mommy and daddy's backyard for the $10...
A pointless comment which does not bring anything valuable to this discussion.
Sorry but I get sick of the endless bitching about games in general. I can buy a game that I can enjoy for hundreds of hours for $20. That's less than I paid for Wizardry back in 1982! $20 is about what I pay for a nice steak that I enjoy for 20 minutes or so. Or I could buy one novel that I'll enjoy (or not sometimes) for a few nights and then never read it again. I just don't get the entitlement mentality of gamers. Never will...
See, that's the problem. $20 is what you pay for a nice steak. In some countries, $20 would allow you to buy 5 steaks, because dollar's value is different there. So imagine it's not about $20, but about $100 and perhaps then you'll be able to understand why for some people the $10 difference is important. And if not, at least don't derail the conversation and simply move along. Shouldn't be difficult.
Touche! I see your point. Moving back to politics thread...
I'd appreciate you not accusing me of hate. I'm writing both here - trying to present some of the points I think are valid that GOG users raise - and on the GOG forums - trying to defend Beamdog against hate, lies and complete distrust.
And you know what? Both sides are accusing me of the worst, which I should probably take as a sign that I'm being pretty objective.
As for the competition part, that's a valid point. Still, Beamdog can have a motive still - they'd rather people buy a $20 version than a $10 one, even if they get the money either way. Not saying it IS their motive (because you may want to accuse me of doing that) - just saying someone can see it this way.
I didn't accuse you of hate. I said you were suggesting they cater to hate. There is an actual difference here. I also didn't say you said anything about their motives. I said the perception that Beamdog bundles games to prevent competition makes no sense and explained why. I didn't accuse you of the worst, I disagreed with you. That's all, and I explained why I disagreed with you. I think that pushing what you want for the sake of appeasing the haters is a bad idea because there's no appeasing the haters. But that's not saying you're a hater. I assume the fact that you're here making a suggestion and not frothing at the mouth about "taking credit for other people's work" or "SJW agendas" or whatever means you're not one of them.
Despite my disagreement with some of your arguments I am actually on your side.
I didn't accuse you of hate. I said you were suggesting they cater to hate. There is an actual difference here. I also didn't say you said anything about their motives. I said the perception that Beamdog bundles games to prevent competition makes no sense and explained why. I didn't accuse you of the worst, I disagreed with you. That's all, and I explained why I disagreed with you. I think that pushing what you want for the sake of appeasing the haters is a bad idea because there's no appeasing the haters. But that's not saying you're a hater. I assume the fact that you're here making a suggestion and not frothing at the mouth about "taking credit for other people's work" or "SJW agendas" or whatever means you're not one of them.
Ok Got the impression that you believe me a hater when you said that my argument is the one haters use. Glad to have it explained. Either way, I think I've said everything I could on this matter. I have hope that Beamdog gives it a read and some thought, hopefully coming to the conclusion that leaving the games unbundled (or better yet - offering the bundle AND NWN:DE separately) would make many people happy.
I love all the rancor over $10 extra for a bundle. Maybe those people could get out of the basement and mow their mommy and daddy's backyard for the $10...
A pointless comment which does not bring anything valuable to this discussion.
Sorry but I get sick of the endless bitching about games in general. I can buy a game that I can enjoy for hundreds of hours for $20. That's less than I paid for Wizardry back in 1982! $20 is about what I pay for a nice steak that I enjoy for 20 minutes or so. Or I could buy one novel that I'll enjoy (or not sometimes) for a few nights and then never read it again. I just don't get the entitlement mentality of gamers. Never will...
Sadly, nice steaks have gone up in price, at least where I live (in the US). They're more like $30-35 now. If they still cost $20 where you live, maybe I should move.
I didn't accuse you of hate. I said you were suggesting they cater to hate. There is an actual difference here. I also didn't say you said anything about their motives. I said the perception that Beamdog bundles games to prevent competition makes no sense and explained why. I didn't accuse you of the worst, I disagreed with you. That's all, and I explained why I disagreed with you. I think that pushing what you want for the sake of appeasing the haters is a bad idea because there's no appeasing the haters. But that's not saying you're a hater. I assume the fact that you're here making a suggestion and not frothing at the mouth about "taking credit for other people's work" or "SJW agendas" or whatever means you're not one of them.
Ok Got the impression that you believe me a hater when you said that my argument is the one haters use. Glad to have it explained. Either way, I think I've said everything I could on this matter. I have hope that Beamdog gives it a read and some thought, hopefully coming to the conclusion that leaving the games unbundled (or better yet - offering the bundle AND NWN:DE separately) would make many people happy.
I am sorry, I get argumentative at times. I do need to be more careful how I phrase things. Because this would happen less frequently.
If it is about the price, the EE will go on sale. I've seen Beamdog titles go for 50% so that is moot.
Wait until you can afford the game before purchasing.
And if you or anyone else can think of a fourth reason to have it sold separately, go ahead and mention it and I'll weigh it.
---
And about Bengoshi stating it was WotC take on having the games bundled, it was either A) Miscommunication since there was a quote from a WotC higher up in the release stating it was their desire or it was WotC idea, but they're hiding behind Beamdog and GoG.
In any case, gog forum users blew it up more than it should have blown up. As I said, it prevented them from spreading lies and falsehoods about the EEs and persuading people to just buy the originals.
And if you or anyone else can think of a fourth reason to have it sold separately, go ahead and mention it and I'll weigh it.
Possible introduction of new bugs making it preferable for some to use 1.69 + CPP instead.
All I see is saying why the games do not need to remain unbundled. How about posting some arguments FOR bundling it without offering NWN:DE separately? I've not yet seen one valid reason NWN:DE should be removed from the store even if it's offered as a bonus to NWN:EE. If Beamdog truly would make money from NWN:DE's sales, then there's even less reason not to let people buy it if they want to.
And so, I see arguments saying I can wait for a discount if the price is the problem or that most people have already got NWN:DE... but why say it won't be so bad if the original is removed from sale instead of saying why NWN:DE SHOULD be removed from sale in the first place?
Why accept this practice and present reasons it won't be a major inconvenience instead of questioning its purpose?
Because it's having glitches everywhere with the new software and hardware, and Beamdog will never update it to work properly, so they just give it in a bundle with the EE so if you can't play the original you can the EE.
The "Possible introduction of new bugs" it's something without sense: there are bugs in 1.69 (fixed in the EE) and for sure there will be on the EE... But they'll patch it, the new one is sopported by them.
Aren't you convinced? Just wait until the official release. It's just that nobody cares and who really cares already have the game.
And if you or anyone else can think of a fourth reason to have it sold separately, go ahead and mention it and I'll weigh it.
Possible introduction of new bugs making it preferable for some to use 1.69 + CPP instead.
All I see is saying why the games do not need to remain unbundled. How about posting some arguments FOR bundling it without offering NWN:DE separately? I've not yet seen one valid reason NWN:DE should be removed from the store even if it's offered as a bonus to NWN:EE. If Beamdog truly would make money from NWN:DE's sales, then there's even less reason not to let people buy it if they want to.
And so, I see arguments saying I can wait for a discount if the price is the problem or that most people have already got NWN:DE... but why say it won't be so bad if the original is removed from sale instead of saying why NWN:DE SHOULD be removed from sale in the first place?
Why accept this practice and present reasons it won't be a major inconvenience instead of questioning its purpose?
You have both versions. And new bugs will be fixed as the product is being supported unlike 1.69. If there is a game breaking bug in EE (such as the transition bug in Witch's Wake I found), you'll still have 1.69 to play that module on until it is fixed. This is more of an argument to HAVE it bundled than not.
Why they don't need to remain unbundled:
Customers get both games. They do not need to repurchase another version if the servers they want to try are 1.69 and another is EE. Having it bundled gives the purchaser the most content possible.
Removing the original from sale prevents confusion when a new person is looking to try the product. Giving them both prevents purchasing the wrong version.
And if you or anyone else can think of a fourth reason to have it sold separately, go ahead and mention it and I'll weigh it.
Possible introduction of new bugs making it preferable for some to use 1.69 + CPP instead.
All I see is saying why the games do not need to remain unbundled. How about posting some arguments FOR bundling it without offering NWN:DE separately? I've not yet seen one valid reason NWN:DE should be removed from the store even if it's offered as a bonus to NWN:EE. If Beamdog truly would make money from NWN:DE's sales, then there's even less reason not to let people buy it if they want to.
And so, I see arguments saying I can wait for a discount if the price is the problem or that most people have already got NWN:DE... but why say it won't be so bad if the original is removed from sale instead of saying why NWN:DE SHOULD be removed from sale in the first place?
Why accept this practice and present reasons it won't be a major inconvenience instead of questioning its purpose?
You have both versions. And new bugs will be fixed as the product is being supported unlike 1.69. If there is a game breaking bug in EE (such as the transition bug in Witch's Wake I found), you'll still have 1.69 to play that module on until it is fixed. This is more of an argument to HAVE it bundled than not.
Why they don't need to remain unbundled:
Customers get both games. They do not need to repurchase another version if the servers they want to try are 1.69 and another is EE. Having it bundled gives the purchaser the most content possible.
Removing the original from sale prevents confusion when a new person is looking to try the product. Giving them both prevents purchasing the wrong version.
I have an old pc I use for old games and I'm sure many others do as it's far easier to play old games on an old system without the hassle of jumping through hoops. But wait I now have to pay more for a game because it's now bundled with a game the system can't run unless I spend a lot more on hardware and a new OS.
And if you or anyone else can think of a fourth reason to have it sold separately, go ahead and mention it and I'll weigh it.
Possible introduction of new bugs making it preferable for some to use 1.69 + CPP instead.
All I see is saying why the games do not need to remain unbundled. How about posting some arguments FOR bundling it without offering NWN:DE separately? I've not yet seen one valid reason NWN:DE should be removed from the store even if it's offered as a bonus to NWN:EE. If Beamdog truly would make money from NWN:DE's sales, then there's even less reason not to let people buy it if they want to.
And so, I see arguments saying I can wait for a discount if the price is the problem or that most people have already got NWN:DE... but why say it won't be so bad if the original is removed from sale instead of saying why NWN:DE SHOULD be removed from sale in the first place?
Why accept this practice and present reasons it won't be a major inconvenience instead of questioning its purpose?
You have both versions. And new bugs will be fixed as the product is being supported unlike 1.69. If there is a game breaking bug in EE (such as the transition bug in Witch's Wake I found), you'll still have 1.69 to play that module on until it is fixed. This is more of an argument to HAVE it bundled than not.
Why they don't need to remain unbundled:
Customers get both games. They do not need to repurchase another version if the servers they want to try are 1.69 and another is EE. Having it bundled gives the purchaser the most content possible.
Removing the original from sale prevents confusion when a new person is looking to try the product. Giving them both prevents purchasing the wrong version.
I have an old pc I use for old games and I'm sure many others do as it's far easier to play old games on an old system without the hassle of jumping through hoops. But wait I now have to pay more for a game because it's now bundled with a game the system can't run unless I spend a lot more on hardware and a new OS.
If you have an old PC, you have chosen NOT to buy this game in the last 15 years (or however old your computer is)
Suddenly an EE of the very game you chose not to buy is now being bundled and you wish to buy it. You had, we'll say 5 even 7 years, to get this game for less. You even had a small windowed opportunity to get the game for free and chose not to do so.
You also have a couple of months to purchase this game now before it gets bundled so you do not have to pay the extra $10 for the version you do not want at the moment.
You've had plenty of time to get "a really good deal" on this game. With the licence changing hands, and the company needing to recoup that money from the licence sale, the original will not be made available as a stand alone. The original however, will be offered for free with every purchase of the EE (on gog only mind you) if you haven't purchased this classic game yet.
thats another thing. people act like this is happening at this very moment. no it's most likely not gonna happen until atlest April or may of next year as the ee is still in beta.
And if you or anyone else can think of a fourth reason to have it sold separately, go ahead and mention it and I'll weigh it.
Possible introduction of new bugs making it preferable for some to use 1.69 + CPP instead.
All I see is saying why the games do not need to remain unbundled. How about posting some arguments FOR bundling it without offering NWN:DE separately? I've not yet seen one valid reason NWN:DE should be removed from the store even if it's offered as a bonus to NWN:EE. If Beamdog truly would make money from NWN:DE's sales, then there's even less reason not to let people buy it if they want to.
And so, I see arguments saying I can wait for a discount if the price is the problem or that most people have already got NWN:DE... but why say it won't be so bad if the original is removed from sale instead of saying why NWN:DE SHOULD be removed from sale in the first place?
Why accept this practice and present reasons it won't be a major inconvenience instead of questioning its purpose?
You have both versions. And new bugs will be fixed as the product is being supported unlike 1.69. If there is a game breaking bug in EE (such as the transition bug in Witch's Wake I found), you'll still have 1.69 to play that module on until it is fixed. This is more of an argument to HAVE it bundled than not.
Why they don't need to remain unbundled:
Customers get both games. They do not need to repurchase another version if the servers they want to try are 1.69 and another is EE. Having it bundled gives the purchaser the most content possible.
Removing the original from sale prevents confusion when a new person is looking to try the product. Giving them both prevents purchasing the wrong version.
I have an old pc I use for old games and I'm sure many others do as it's far easier to play old games on an old system without the hassle of jumping through hoops. But wait I now have to pay more for a game because it's now bundled with a game the system can't run unless I spend a lot more on hardware and a new OS.
If you have an old PC, you have chosen NOT to buy this game in the last 15 years (or however old your computer is)
Suddenly an EE of the very game you chose not to buy is now being bundled and you wish to buy it. You had, we'll say 5 even 7 years, to get this game for less. You even had a small windowed opportunity to get the game for free and chose not to do so.
You also have a couple of months to purchase this game now before it gets bundled so you do not have to pay the extra $10 for the version you do not want at the moment.
You've had plenty of time to get "a really good deal" on this game. With the licence changing hands, and the company needing to recoup that money from the licence sale, the original will not be made available as a stand alone. The original however, will be offered for free with every purchase of the EE (on gog only mind you) if you haven't purchased this classic game yet.
Sometimes I run multiboxing which means u need extra accounts I have 3 already and thinking of buying an extra copy. So in the future I might have to purchase the EE version to get an old copy of the game. If I want to run a multiboxing setup on the EE version I would have to purchase NEW multiple copies.
A bad reputation could lower sales of future Beamdog releases. So it is important to consider the thoughts of at least some of the people who dislike Beamdog. They can't please everyone, but they could please some.
The haters won't be swayed by anything. They'll just shift the goalposts so they can hate Beamdog more. Catering to them will achieve nothing. These are people who insist Trent Oster is stealing his own work and taking credit for it.
Yeah, that is crazy. Of all the games Beamdog has worked on, they have the most claim to NWN. I mean, come on.
What about the people (like myself) who try to respectfully criticise Beamdog's words and actions, taking care not to personally attack anyone? Are we also considered haters?
A bad reputation could lower sales of future Beamdog releases. So it is important to consider the thoughts of at least some of the people who dislike Beamdog. They can't please everyone, but they could please some.
The haters won't be swayed by anything. They'll just shift the goalposts so they can hate Beamdog more. Catering to them will achieve nothing. These are people who insist Trent Oster is stealing his own work and taking credit for it.
Yeah, that is crazy. Of all the games Beamdog has worked on, they have the most claim to NWN. I mean, come on.
What about the people (like myself) who try to respectfully criticise Beamdog's words and actions, taking care not to personally attack anyone? Are we also considered haters?
No.
The people I'm talking about don't come here at all. You're not in that category.
Yes, I had defended Beamdog in other forums before, and while on most other websites the discussion remained civil, it seems to be the only places full of vitriol are RPG Codex and GOG. The neckbeards there think that somehow, Beamdog rereleasing a game would suddenly make their original copies disappear, so they must spew out all kinds of grievances, both real and imagined, against Beamdog. What annoys me is that they exaggerate minor issues, such as a particular NPC in SoD which has little bearing on the gameplay or story, and their tantrum drowned out possible constructive discussions on what I believe are SoD's actual issues, such as NPC continuity between the games.
Overall though, I think these people are simply a loud minority. The RPG Codex folk seems to be a group of mostly jaded old school gamers, while the problem with GOG is it lets anyone write reviews, which tends to attract the Gamergate types, together with a pretty much non-existent moderation system. It had a long GG related topic which was only randomly closed by a mod earlier this year, and a GOG-mix, which called Beamdog "parasites of the industry", (started by a disturbed individual who flew into a rage because there is no Black Isle logo in PST:EE, and filled with lies such as claiming PST:EE does a worse job that the original with mods,) still exists with no way to report it:
But I think the good news is that outside of these fringe minorities, most people I've discussed the game with at least kept their minds open, and many didn't even know that the original servers were shut down, or the existence of its large online community. Even with PST:EE on release, positive word of mouth drowned out the idiots who claimed that Beamdog would add "SJW material" to the game, and it has a "very positive" rating on Steam. So my advise for Beamdog is to stay the course, and let the trolls have their little safe space where they spend their pathetic existence spewing hatred over video games.
True that. Unfortunately, outside of GOG getting a better reporting system, or even active moderators, I really don't see a viable solution to deal with their toxicity anytime soon.
True that. Unfortunately, outside of GOG getting a better reporting system, or even active moderators, I really don't see a viable solution to deal with their toxicity anytime soon.
I was impressed when a moderator stepped in to say "Yes, you do in fact get the soundtrack with the bundled Icewind Dale Complete Edition" in a thread where people were outright lying that it wasn't included.
If they limited reviews to only people who own the game, it would help. There're a number of wishlists for such a feature in the community wishlist section, but gog hasn't seemed interested in limiting votes or even adding more features to sort reviews.
If they limited reviews to only people who own the game, it would help. There're a number of wishlists for such a feature in the community wishlist section, but gog hasn't seemed interested in limiting votes or even adding more features to sort reviews.
I agree that the 1.69 version should probably remain available on its own. Bundle the new version as "EE + Classic" if desired, but leave "Classic" up.
Just make sure that it is clear in the description that Classic cannot play on EE servers as well as any other limitations (can EE modules be played in 1.69?).
Comments
Then why not keep them in a bundle so they don't have to spend $30? By $20 you'll get EE (wich will work anyway) and 1.69 (wich may not work). I really cannot think of someone new saying "Yeah! Let's buy the old crappy unworking version so I've to downgrade my SO, Drivers and hardware to play online!"
Despite my disagreement with some of your arguments I am actually on your side.
This is a purely academic annoyance as I own everything already.
Wait until you can afford the game before purchasing.
And if you or anyone else can think of a fourth reason to have it sold separately, go ahead and mention it and I'll weigh it.
---
And about Bengoshi stating it was WotC take on having the games bundled, it was either A) Miscommunication since there was a quote from a WotC higher up in the release stating it was their desire or
In any case, gog forum users blew it up more than it should have blown up. As I said, it prevented them from spreading lies and falsehoods about the EEs and persuading people to just buy the originals.
But NWN:DE discounted by 50% will be $5. Possible introduction of new bugs making it preferable for some to use 1.69 + CPP instead.
All I see is saying why the games do not need to remain unbundled. How about posting some arguments FOR bundling it without offering NWN:DE separately? I've not yet seen one valid reason NWN:DE should be removed from the store even if it's offered as a bonus to NWN:EE. If Beamdog truly would make money from NWN:DE's sales, then there's even less reason not to let people buy it if they want to.
And so, I see arguments saying I can wait for a discount if the price is the problem or that most people have already got NWN:DE... but why say it won't be so bad if the original is removed from sale instead of saying why NWN:DE SHOULD be removed from sale in the first place?
Why accept this practice and present reasons it won't be a major inconvenience instead of questioning its purpose?
The "Possible introduction of new bugs" it's something without sense: there are bugs in 1.69 (fixed in the EE) and for sure there will be on the EE... But they'll patch it, the new one is sopported by them.
Aren't you convinced? Just wait until the official release. It's just that nobody cares and who really cares already have the game.
Why they don't need to remain unbundled:
Customers get both games. They do not need to repurchase another version if the servers they want to try are 1.69 and another is EE. Having it bundled gives the purchaser the most content possible.
Removing the original from sale prevents confusion when a new person is looking to try the product.
Giving them both prevents purchasing the wrong version.
Suddenly an EE of the very game you chose not to buy is now being bundled and you wish to buy it. You had, we'll say 5 even 7 years, to get this game for less. You even had a small windowed opportunity to get the game for free and chose not to do so.
You also have a couple of months to purchase this game now before it gets bundled so you do not have to pay the extra $10 for the version you do not want at the moment.
You've had plenty of time to get "a really good deal" on this game. With the licence changing hands, and the company needing to recoup that money from the licence sale, the original will not be made available as a stand alone. The original however, will be offered for free with every purchase of the EE (on gog only mind you) if you haven't purchased this classic game yet.
The people I'm talking about don't come here at all. You're not in that category.
Overall though, I think these people are simply a loud minority. The RPG Codex folk seems to be a group of mostly jaded old school gamers, while the problem with GOG is it lets anyone write reviews, which tends to attract the Gamergate types, together with a pretty much non-existent moderation system. It had a long GG related topic which was only randomly closed by a mod earlier this year, and a GOG-mix, which called Beamdog "parasites of the industry", (started by a disturbed individual who flew into a rage because there is no Black Isle logo in PST:EE, and filled with lies such as claiming PST:EE does a worse job that the original with mods,) still exists with no way to report it:
https://www.gog.com/mix/beamdog_is_the_parasite_of_the_industry
But I think the good news is that outside of these fringe minorities, most people I've discussed the game with at least kept their minds open, and many didn't even know that the original servers were shut down, or the existence of its large online community. Even with PST:EE on release, positive word of mouth drowned out the idiots who claimed that Beamdog would add "SJW material" to the game, and it has a "very positive" rating on Steam. So my advise for Beamdog is to stay the course, and let the trolls have their little safe space where they spend their pathetic existence spewing hatred over video games.
My review of lets say Civilization III shouldn't be hindered just because I do not own the product through GoG if I choose to write one.
Just make sure that it is clear in the description that Classic cannot play on EE servers as well as any other limitations (can EE modules be played in 1.69?).