Its in no way odd for a non lawful neutral character to travel with evil characters. True Neutrals like Jaheira have no objection to travelling with good or evil characters, as Jaheira shows in BG2 if you reqruit Viconia. Chaotic Neutrals have no objection to working with evil people if it benefits them, such as Garrick working for Silke.
A lawful neutral would only work with evil people if the law required it, but this can be advantageous as LNs can make very capable, and loyal spies.
It would have been really weird if either his strength or his constitution had not been at 19 given that those are the two selling points of half-orcs and that he is a DLC that they want people on Ipads and tablets to purchase.
Considering that we haven't even played the character, and that we know that characters with vastly conflicting morals in Baldur's Gate 2 don't get along in some cases to the point of disaster for the party, I think its a little early to judge how much better he is than any of the existing characters. For all we know having him and Minsc (or any other good character) in a party could be, well, lets just say get into a discussion which could be very bad for part
I don't think it would have been weird. Very few NPCs in the first game have attributes at their racial maximum.
It depends on where Quartz* is placed, but as it stands, why would any mixed or evil party every choose Kagain or Shar-teel over this guy?
*Jesus, I'm talking about Dorn and typed "Quartz" without thinking. Beamdog really needs to change his name.
On the character record screen for Dorn: To the left of the panel that shows his damage summary there is a 5 on top of a 14, does that mean it sums up min/max damage? (5-14 damage)
Its in no way odd for a non lawful neutral character to travel with evil characters. True Neutrals like Jaheira have no objection to travelling with good or evil characters, as Jaheira shows in BG2 if you reqruit Viconia. Chaotic Neutrals have no objection to working with evil people if it benefits them, such as Garrick working for Silke.
A lawful neutral would only work with evil people if the law required it, but this can be advantageous as LNs can make very capable, and loyal spies.
Sorry by neutral I meant a player character playing around a reputation of 10 rather than an evil reputation like say 6.
It would have been really weird if either his strength or his constitution had not been at 19 given that those are the two selling points of half-orcs and that he is a DLC that they want people on Ipads and tablets to purchase.
Considering that we haven't even played the character, and that we know that characters with vastly conflicting morals in Baldur's Gate 2 don't get along in some cases to the point of disaster for the party, I think its a little early to judge how much better he is than any of the existing characters. For all we know having him and Minsc (or any other good character) in a party could be, well, lets just say get into a discussion which could be very bad for part
I don't think it would have been weird. Very few NPCs in the first game have attributes at their racial maximum.
It depends on where Quartz* is placed, but as it stands, why would any mixed or evil party every choose Kagain or Shar-teel over this guy?
*Jesus, I'm talking about Dorn and typed "Quartz" without thinking. Beamdog really needs to change his name.
Yea but I would argue having the 19 Strength makes him unique as a character to want to pay the extra 3 bucks for. Especially for new players to the game only familiar with the NPC's you get in the first say hour of gameplay. We will have to see what sort of stats Neera has since she is the other character DLC before really judging Dorn.
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
Yea but I would argue having the 19 Strength makes him unique as a character to want to pay the extra 3 bucks for. Especially for new players to the game only familiar with the NPC's you get in the first say hour of gameplay. We will have to see what sort of stats Neera has since she is the other character DLC before really judging Dorn.
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
Good point about DLC draw. The thing about most physical damage dealers in the original game was that, even if they had good stats in one or two areas, they paid for it elsewhere. Dorn has no drawbacks whatsoever.
Kagain's CON regen is made irrelevant by "Rest Until Healed" (which the original game didn't have).
Yea but I would argue having the 19 Strength makes him unique as a character to want to pay the extra 3 bucks for. Especially for new players to the game only familiar with the NPC's you get in the first say hour of gameplay. We will have to see what sort of stats Neera has since she is the other character DLC before really judging Dorn.
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
Good point about DLC draw. The thing about most physical damage dealers in the original game was that, even if they had good stats in one or two areas, they paid for it elsewhere. Dorn has no drawbacks whatsoever.
Kagain's CON regen is made irrelevant by "Rest Until Healed" (which the original game didn't have).
Dorn does not have good Con for your main tank, that's a drawback and less easy to "fix" with items than Dex. I'm definitely using him in my party, though!
Yea but I would argue having the 19 Strength makes him unique as a character to want to pay the extra 3 bucks for. Especially for new players to the game only familiar with the NPC's you get in the first say hour of gameplay. We will have to see what sort of stats Neera has since she is the other character DLC before really judging Dorn.
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
Good point about DLC draw. The thing about most physical damage dealers in the original game was that, even if they had good stats in one or two areas, they paid for it elsewhere. Dorn has no drawbacks whatsoever.
Kagain's CON regen is made irrelevant by "Rest Until Healed" (which the original game didn't have).
There are places in both games where resting is a bad idea. The cloakwood mines (getting spammed by bandit archers) being one of them. So Kagains resting ability (as well as having shorty saves and more health than anyone) still are good selling points for him.
Now that I've actually looked at it Shar-Teel it turns out she and Dorn have the same bonus to their health. 9 is the same as 14. The only difference is the chance she gets resurrected (I've never actually had this fail on me and its more of an issue in BG2 I think). Shar-Teel still is a more capable archer than Dorn I would argue, Dorn could arguably now be used as the more prefered frontline fighter purely because of his extra strength. But with 17 dexterity she could be used as a competent archer or a more defensible fighter compared to Dorn.
Does Dorn have no drawbacks? its hard to say having not played him. Time will tell I guess.
A reputation of 8-12 is fine for a neutral, and 8 is fine for evils.
So lets just say 8 is fine. Thats still paying 20% more for all goods, and getting 20% less for goods sold.
Which has nothing to do with role playing a neutral PC in a full evil party.
The point I had made was that it would be weird if you were playing a reputation of 10 with a party that was all evil. So for people playing an evil character who has an evil reputation NPC's like Dorn provide a benefit to what is otherwise a rather biased experience. But at the end of the day reputation, like choosing party members, is up to you.
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
I can see having a party with Kagain, Dorn, and Shar-Teel, especially if she is dual-classed to Thief. They didn't give her weapon specialization in small swords for nothing.
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
I can see having a party with Kagain, Dorn, and Shar-Teel, especially if she is dual-classed to Thief. They didn't give her weapon specialization in small swords for nothing.
In BGT she only has profs in two-handed swords/weapons, so I never considered her as a thief!
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
I can see having a party with Kagain, Dorn, and Shar-Teel, especially if she is dual-classed to Thief. They didn't give her weapon specialization in small swords for nothing.
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
I can see having a party with Kagain, Dorn, and Shar-Teel, especially if she is dual-classed to Thief. They didn't give her weapon specialization in small swords for nothing.
For some reason I always mentally think of Shar-Teel of wielding a big giant two-handed sword. But I guess she does have short sword specialisation. I chose not to take her during my recent evil playthrough of the game and its been a long time since I've used her as a party member (more for personal reasons lol).
Been a while since last playing IWD II, but me thinks this EE inventory seems inverior as it has no room for alternative weapon setups and takes no advantage of full screen.
@elminster She's definitely a niche NPC. I don't mind her constant bitching about men so much, especially when I have Eldoth in my party, as they tend to cancel one another out. Plus, they keep things interesting dialogue-wise. I haven't witnessed them fight yet, although it's probably due to my PC's high CHA.
Her portrait obviously isn't very thief-like, and I see your point about always thinking of her as a 2H sword tank. During my first playthrough with her, I started using her as an archer, because even with a high AC, she dies often if you don't max her HP every level. I wish I knew the story behind her 9 CON. How could a woman so strong be so frail?
I remember the Tutu romance mod mentioned something about her being beaten and raped by the Flaming Fist and left to die, so maybe she has some health issues because of it. And that would certainly help explain her abiding hatred of men.
Been a while since last playing IWD II, but me thinks this EE inventory seems inverior as it has no room for alternative weapon setups and takes no advantage of full screen.
I thought BGEE was meant to be implementing easily swappable weapon sets to make swapping from sword and board to a bow etc. less of a bore, or was that just a forum member's wishful thinking?
Dorn does not have good Con for your main tank, that's a drawback and less easy to "fix" with items than Dex. I'm definitely using him in my party, though!
He gets no bonus (same as Shar-teel), and the cumulative difference between him & everyone else (besides Kagain) is relatively small. Of the pureclass fighters, only Kagain and Khalid have CON bonuses worth mentioning. And both of them have drawbacks which temper that advantage.
Does Dorn have no drawbacks? its hard to say having not played him. Time will tell I guess.
Uh, no, actually. It's pretty easy to say. The game isn't *that* complex. If you've ever run Shar-teel as a frontliner, Dorn will play exactly the same way. Except, well, better on almost every level.
Shar-teel has no pips in ranged weapons, so getting to the point where she'll make a half-decent ranged toon will (1) take a long time and (2) detract from her main class advantage (mastery & high mastery).
I can see having a party with Kagain, Dorn, and Shar-Teel, especially if she is dual-classed to Thief. They didn't give her weapon specialization in small swords for nothing.
Seems like overkill, a lot of unnecessary muscle. I can already picture these guys stumbling over one another in narrow dungeon corridors, trying to get at the mobs.
@Brude I try to avoid Blitzkriegs in dungeons at all costs. Usually, I send Kagain in first, followed by a volley of missiles from everyone else until there's more swinging space. Shar-Teel is unparalleled as a backstabber with her 18/58 STR, but unless I'm using her to backstab, I keep her the back as an archer (throwing daggers worked just fine at lower levels).
@Mortianna Fair enough. I've been playing the original game, no mods except widescreen, and the idea of three melee toons makes my eye twitch with frustration.
TBH, too, I've never dual class Shar-teel because she's a helluva good fighter & I always have Montaron in any evil party.
Sorry @Brude I really have to disagree with you completely here.
Dorn - Melee. With 16 Dex, he'll be slightly evasive, and it turns out he'll actually be okay with Ranged weapons due to a +1 THAC0. Also a Charisma monkey. Now, when we see his BGII stats, I will probably agree he's overpowered 'cause chances are, with his current 14 Con, he's going to get a boost up to a 15 or 16 come BGII. Shar-Teel - Melee who can easily adapt to being an archer and/or fighter-thief. Seriously, I don't see how you can argue Dorn overshadows her ... Shar-Teel is a very powerful character. That 17 Dex may not seem like much over Dorn, but it's a whole +1 more THAC0 with ranged and +1 AC. And she dual-classes. And can achieve High Mastery if you want. I don't see the two as interchangeable at all, they have entirely different play styles. Kagain - You're kidding me right? NO ONE can replace Kagain. Not even Korgan. 20 Constitution right out of the gate. Your argument of "well rest until healed killed 20 Con" is terrible because you HAVE to be a cheater to use it. That button is cheating. It seriously is. That aside, 20 Con gives him +5 HP/level, epic saving throws, and regeneration. People seem to overlook that he will regenerate fully upon traveling big areas (not just sleeping), and I fully notice every damn hit point he gains while I'm exploring. Oh, and 16 STR is fine, good equipment and a +1 damage. No one can replace Kagain, you are smoking crack Brude I'm not even going to sugar coat it. This is the guy I was EXPECTING to get replaced by Dorn and they evaded it. Bravo to Overhaul.
The only argument worth having here is if he's more powerful than Minsc. Which I'll be honest, he kinda is. They both have great Strength bonuses so I don't see the point in arguing over their Strength, but really, having a 16 Dex vs. his 15 is pretty big. Minsc's 15 Con keeps him a little legit, but yeah.
Also whoever said "Dorn overshadows Ajantis" lololol Ajantis has a 17 CHA, which is way better than 16 because 17+Nymph Cloak+Helm of Glory = 20. 20 is max Charisma bonus for stores. 16 you will fall short, you'd have to feed him a tome on top of it. Much more importantly, Ajantis has a 16 Constitution.
@Brude Fair enough on the archery front though for an evil character you aren't going to get much better. Other than Montaron I guess, but I never loved him.
To quote Trent Oster in the interview that @Mechalibur posted referring to Dorn ""The butcher of Bakersfield" (Running Man movie reference), but the idea was a butt-kicking fighter who added a great deal to the party in combat ability, but really hurt the party in the social game. The idea that people wouldn't talk to them, merchants charged higher prices, enemies coming out the woodwork and so on."
Don't know if Trent was just referring to being evil in general when it comes to higher prices etc, and any such drawback won't be known until we play the game.
@Brude So am I, but without the widescreen. It's very aggravating when they get stuck in the dungeon corridors. Glad that won't be the case anymore in BG:EE.
Dual-classing Shar-Teel came about by necessity. I was playing an honest game with no reloads for chunked NPCs and an Ogre Berserker happened to land a critical on poor Monty, who was my only thief. It was an nice surprise to see how well she fared in her new profession.
Comments
A lawful neutral would only work with evil people if the law required it, but this can be advantageous as LNs can make very capable, and loyal spies.
It depends on where Quartz* is placed, but as it stands, why would any mixed or evil party every choose Kagain or Shar-teel over this guy?
*Jesus, I'm talking about Dorn and typed "Quartz" without thinking. Beamdog really needs to change his name.
To the left of the panel that shows his damage summary there is a 5 on top of a 14, does that mean it sums up min/max damage? (5-14 damage)
They would choose Kagain because he is a health nut, and Shar-Teel because she emasculated them to a point where they subserviently took her in. Well, unless of course your character is a woman. Then I can't say why you would take her over Dorn.
Kagain's CON regen is made irrelevant by "Rest Until Healed" (which the original game didn't have).
Now that I've actually looked at it Shar-Teel it turns out she and Dorn have the same bonus to their health. 9 is the same as 14. The only difference is the chance she gets resurrected (I've never actually had this fail on me and its more of an issue in BG2 I think). Shar-Teel still is a more capable archer than Dorn I would argue, Dorn could arguably now be used as the more prefered frontline fighter purely because of his extra strength. But with 17 dexterity she could be used as a competent archer or a more defensible fighter compared to Dorn.
Does Dorn have no drawbacks? its hard to say having not played him. Time will tell I guess.
Her portrait obviously isn't very thief-like, and I see your point about always thinking of her as a 2H sword tank. During my first playthrough with her, I started using her as an archer, because even with a high AC, she dies often if you don't max her HP every level. I wish I knew the story behind her 9 CON. How could a woman so strong be so frail?
Shar-teel has no pips in ranged weapons, so getting to the point where she'll make a half-decent ranged toon will (1) take a long time and (2) detract from her main class advantage (mastery & high mastery). Seems like overkill, a lot of unnecessary muscle. I can already picture these guys stumbling over one another in narrow dungeon corridors, trying to get at the mobs.
TBH, too, I've never dual class Shar-teel because she's a helluva good fighter & I always have Montaron in any evil party.
Dorn - Melee. With 16 Dex, he'll be slightly evasive, and it turns out he'll actually be okay with Ranged weapons due to a +1 THAC0. Also a Charisma monkey. Now, when we see his BGII stats, I will probably agree he's overpowered 'cause chances are, with his current 14 Con, he's going to get a boost up to a 15 or 16 come BGII.
Shar-Teel - Melee who can easily adapt to being an archer and/or fighter-thief. Seriously, I don't see how you can argue Dorn overshadows her ... Shar-Teel is a very powerful character. That 17 Dex may not seem like much over Dorn, but it's a whole +1 more THAC0 with ranged and +1 AC. And she dual-classes. And can achieve High Mastery if you want. I don't see the two as interchangeable at all, they have entirely different play styles.
Kagain - You're kidding me right? NO ONE can replace Kagain. Not even Korgan. 20 Constitution right out of the gate. Your argument of "well rest until healed killed 20 Con" is terrible because you HAVE to be a cheater to use it. That button is cheating. It seriously is. That aside, 20 Con gives him +5 HP/level, epic saving throws, and regeneration. People seem to overlook that he will regenerate fully upon traveling big areas (not just sleeping), and I fully notice every damn hit point he gains while I'm exploring. Oh, and 16 STR is fine, good equipment and a +1 damage. No one can replace Kagain, you are smoking crack Brude I'm not even going to sugar coat it. This is the guy I was EXPECTING to get replaced by Dorn and they evaded it. Bravo to Overhaul.
The only argument worth having here is if he's more powerful than Minsc. Which I'll be honest, he kinda is. They both have great Strength bonuses so I don't see the point in arguing over their Strength, but really, having a 16 Dex vs. his 15 is pretty big. Minsc's 15 Con keeps him a little legit, but yeah.
Also whoever said "Dorn overshadows Ajantis" lololol Ajantis has a 17 CHA, which is way better than 16 because 17+Nymph Cloak+Helm of Glory = 20. 20 is max Charisma bonus for stores. 16 you will fall short, you'd have to feed him a tome on top of it. Much more importantly, Ajantis has a 16 Constitution.
Also @Brude, @Mortianna plays vanilla BG as well you know.
If you guys really need to have this "NPCs are irrelevant!" discussion, switch to Thieves. The Fighters are balanced. Enough said. Hahaha, you guys are silly.
To quote Trent Oster in the interview that @Mechalibur posted referring to Dorn ""The butcher of Bakersfield" (Running Man movie reference), but the idea was a butt-kicking fighter who added a great deal to the party in combat ability, but really hurt the party in the social game. The idea that people wouldn't talk to them, merchants charged higher prices, enemies coming out the woodwork and so on."
Don't know if Trent was just referring to being evil in general when it comes to higher prices etc, and any such drawback won't be known until we play the game.
Dual-classing Shar-Teel came about by necessity. I was playing an honest game with no reloads for chunked NPCs and an Ogre Berserker happened to land a critical on poor Monty, who was my only thief. It was an nice surprise to see how well she fared in her new profession.