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Solo WizardSlayer/Druid?

How bad can it be?
It'd get GM weapon using and some spells, but seriously limited in equipment.

Anyone accepts the challenge? Let's go and beat Sharevok to Melissan!

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Comments

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,200
    Two words: Fire Seeds.

    @semiticgod Knows the details.

    semiticgodThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,006
    You can read about the awesome power of Fire Seeds here, in the first post of the Exploits, Tricks, and Nonstandard Tactics thread. Wizard Slayers are especially powerful when using Fire Seeds. In a nutshell, a Wizard Slayer can use Fire Seeds to neutralize any mage no matter what their defenses or immunities might be. Unfortunately, I believe it's no longer possible to make Fire Seeds permanent as of v2.5, but you only need a few at a time anyway. Darts are an excellent backup, because you can alternate between nonmagical darts and the +5 darts from the Cloak of Stars to get past Protection from Magical Weapons and Improved Mantle, respectively (and even Absolute Immunity, if you don't have SCS installed).

    As it happens, I did a no-reload run of BG2 featuring the Fire Seed trick, and while my run was with a party instead of a solo character, and while my Charname was a Shadowdancer/Cleric instead of a Wizard Slayer/Druid, it may be very useful. You can read about it in the "Maybe this time" thread, starting here.

    Grond0StummvonBordwehrArctodusJuliusBorisov
  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65
    edited January 9

    You can read about the awesome power of Fire Seeds

    As it happens, I did a no-reload run of BG2 featuring the Fire Seed trick, and while my run was with a party instead of a solo character, and while my Charname was a Shadowdancer/Cleric instead of a Wizard Slayer/Druid, it may be very useful.

    There are a couple of major differences why the two are not equal, and why I have doubts:
    - ok, you can deal with mages. Actually, that was kinda obvious. Hardest encounters ever were No Magic Zone if you ask me.
    - shadowdancer is a rogue class, thus has Use Any Item, which simply negates the Wizardslayer's problems.
    - clerics have access to very good weaponry (Crom Faeyer, Flail of Ages etc.). Druids on the other hand have access to very limited, and underpowered weapon classes, namely daggers, spears, scimitars, clubs.
    - a team of 5 can pull through a 6th member nakked. Solo is a much harder cake.

    other issues:
    - you can have only up to 15 Cloak of the Stars darts. If the enemy has tons of HP, you'll be screwed.
    - most problems don't come from anti-magic weapon spells, and either way many enemy where it occurs have a natural immunity to nonmagical weaponry. So there is an issue here.
    - oh, and I see serious problems trying to dart Sharevok.

    Conclusion:
    -----------
    Yes, there is a trick where you can semi-easily disable mages. Even group of mages if they stand close together. But that doesn't mean you won the game.
    The case looks similar to the issue of Blades. On paper they are maybe the best DPS-kit. In reality that's only true in a group, and solo they have serious issues hitting the Big Baddies, where it'd count.

    PS: your shadowdancer-party was not just made from custom characters, but tended to die a lot (you temrinated for this the party before ToB). Solo you are not allowed to die.
    Yes, I know you did no-reload.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 2,939
    What mods, if any, were you thinking of? How about difficulty level and were you intending to include SoD?

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    twillight said:

    The case looks similar to the issue of Blades. On paper they are maybe the best DPS-kit.

    Where on Earth does this misconception come from? Blades are a terrible DPS kit.

    1: Bards are thieves. 1 APR, no specialisation, 10 max THAC0.
    2: Offensive Spin: +1 APR (does not stack with haste) +2 damage.
    3: No Improved Haste, no weapon whirlwind,

    Compare: A multiclassed F/M/T with no kit - which also isn't the best DPS kit, by the way.

    1: THAC0 always equal or better than the Blade.
    2: 1/2 APR and +2 damage from specialisation (does stack with haste). By level 7 fighter the F/M/T gets a permanent "offensive spin" - +2 damage, +1 APR. By level 13, that's +3/2 APR and straight up superior THAC0.
    3: Does get Greater Weapon Whirlwind, Improved Haste, Critical Strike...

    The only Mage/multi that might lose out to the Blade on physical DPS is something containing Cleric, and even then that's pretty debatable.

    As for Wizard Slayer/Druid, it should be doable. Soloing is typically easier than splitting exp six ways, you'll have no need to engage in any of the quests outside of those strictly necessary to acquire your massively restricted gear selection, an invisibility spell, plenty of summons to throw at mandatory encounters, and multiple ways to shut down the most dangerous enemies

    semiticgod
  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65
    Pantalion said:

    twillight said:

    The case looks similar to the issue of Blades. On paper they are maybe the best DPS-kit.

    Where on Earth does this misconception come from? Blades are a terrible DPS kit.

    From the original BG-series gamer walkthrough by DSimpson.
    The theory works like this:
    - get blade
    - put 3 point in two weapon style
    - put belm in 2nd hand
    - improved haste
    - profit.

    From epxerience me too know the above doesn't work, not where it counts. Bard has terrible attack/round, thac0, AC, dmg - and pretty much every problem you can come up with.
    And the faster advancement doesn't really help from a point. Until that, you can solve things gimmicky-way, but then things start to catch you up (if you want, you can reach ToB's exp-cap in SoA Act 3).

    Pantalion
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,200
    @twillight I released a mod yesterday that alters some of the restrictions of the Wizard Slayer. You can check it out here.

    semiticgodbooinyoureyes
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,016
    Blades are the best single class DPS. If you want to talk multis, then DUH they are better. Multis completely break the power curve compared to single classes.

  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 384
    Don’t agree with that either. Even if all you care about is damage (ignoring survivability etc) then swashbucklers, kensai, assassin (backstabs), even straight mage or sorcerer (if spells count) would leave a blade trailing miles behind. You can work that out with some basic maths.

    Heck, even a straight fighter with some HLAs would leave a blade trailing. Probably some cleric and thief builds too if you factor in other party members casting spells on you or selfbuffing with potions and scrolls rather than spells.

  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65
    Ye, I'd be interested in too how Blade would outDPS a greater whirlwinding half-orc barbarian, who has 25 STR with all the bonuses of the game, fighter thac0, and more. Or a fighter with pure GM in his weapons. And they have like twice the HP of the bard. And ton of other things that help their survivability.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,513
    Blades are extremely balanced and versatile characters:
    They have most of the defensive arsenal a mage needs.
    They have a very decent damage output. Not as much as some other classes, but still a very good one.


    If you compare them to Fighter/Mage, which probably is the closest class, well they teade some DPS for a much higher caster level (very useful with remove magic notably) and Use Any Item. Other than that they are very similar.

    But definitely there is no way they even compare to the DPS oriented class, in terms of damage output. They don't need to, either. They have plenty of tools to do many other things.

    Arguably, it's precisely that versatility that makes blades so easy to solo.

    JuliusBorisov
  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65
    Except that you never need versatility, and "balanced" here means there is no specialised way to deal with things, aka. bard is weaker than any other class when it comes to solo.

    For example:
    - "balanced" AC means bard will be hit
    - "balanced" HP means bard can't stand much hit
    - "balanced" thac0 means bard can't hit strong enemies in return
    - bard also suffer rogue number of attacks
    - "balanced" casting means has no access to the all-clear nuke spells

    These in sum tell why practicaly none solo with bard, and can't be find ANY playthrough with a solo bard anywhere (at least not into ToB).

    Raduziel
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 2,939
    twillight said:

    Except that you never need versatility, and "balanced" here means there is no specialised way to deal with things, aka. bard is weaker than any other class when it comes to solo.

    For example:
    - "balanced" AC means bard will be hit
    - "balanced" HP means bard can't stand much hit
    - "balanced" thac0 means bard can't hit strong enemies in return
    - bard also suffer rogue number of attacks
    - "balanced" casting means has no access to the all-clear nuke spells

    These in sum tell why practicaly none solo with bard, and can't be find ANY playthrough with a solo bard anywhere (at least not into ToB).

    You're being too harsh here - it's not difficult to solo a blade into ToB (at least in the unmodded game).
    - the availability of spells like mirror image, spirit armor and blur (quite apart from defensive spin) means a blade is indeed much more difficult to hit than a fighter.
    - stoneskins and PfMW means that even when a blade is hit he normally suffers no damage and thus needs fewer HPs than a fighter.
    - THAC0 is certainly worse than a fighter, but that's where 'balance' comes in. A blade has other options like use of summons, wands and damage spells to supplement his fighting abilities. His excellent defenses also means he can last longer in combat than a fighter and therefore doesn't need to damage opponents so quickly.
    - a blade can get up to 8 APR with improved haste, which is more than enough for most enemies.
    - for the rare occasions in which spells above level 6 are needed, scrolls are available.

    semiticgodRAM021JuliusBorisov
  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65
    Grond0 said:



    You're being too harsh here - it's not difficult to solo a blade into ToB (at least in the unmodded game).
    - the availability of spells like mirror image, spirit armor and blur (quite apart from defensive spin) means a blade is indeed much more difficult to hit than a fighter.
    - stoneskins and PfMW means that even when a blade is hit he normally suffers no damage and thus needs fewer HPs than a fighter.
    - THAC0 is certainly worse than a fighter, but that's where 'balance' comes in. A blade has other options like use of summons, wands and damage spells to supplement his fighting abilities. His excellent defenses also means he can last longer in combat than a fighter and therefore doesn't need to damage opponents so quickly.
    - a blade can get up to 8 APR with improved haste, which is more than enough for most enemies.
    - for the rare occasions in which spells above level 6 are needed, scrolls are available.

    A fighter is harder to hit when the enemy is dead. Even with blur and what not, which can be removed a lot of ways, let's involve the duration the fight lasts.
    Same for stone skin, where it's time to mention the casting time and casting delays required. While the fighter will simply Greater Whirlwind once, and nuke the field.

    Summons are entirely useless in ToB. Wands detto. What damage spells? Even if I'm not considering the substantial magic resist ALL enemy has in ToB, those "damage spells" are pretty limited to Magic Missles.
    And while certainly might have "excellent defenses", if it can't hit the opposition because of the looser thac0, that's doesn't worth a darn. Btw, most of the times you only need AC, and warriors will have that equalling them on the field.

    Actually, Blade can only reach 7 APR with Improved Haste. And that includes Scarlet Ninja To, Boots of Speed (which is definitly a bug), and Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation (which admittedly none gets aside me).

    On high level spells: how many scrolls you can have? Can you have Summon Planetar? Improved Alactricity? No? Than what are you even talking about?

  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65
    "spell immunity can be used to lock in buffs, with spell shield protecting even" - for 1-2 seconds. Ye, fine.
    And again: along the defense must rise the offense too, as bard is without both.
    And I tell you, even 0 casttime canand will be interrupted regularly where you'd need you spells - 8 monsters kicking you donkey.

    "If you're talking about HLAs with fighters using GWW then the blade can of course use spike trap" - I said we're talking about ->ToB, so definitely including HLAs. Now as you are so darncreative, show me defeating Ravager w/o traps! "There are lots of ways to play the game successfully, the bard is the strongest!" - prove it, I challenge you! No spike traps. Beat it! Use wands! Let's see what Ravager thinks about that!
    Or trap Melissan. The first time. Ye, that's kinda problematic.

    Let's see whatenemies you have in ToB you wanne pit your 1-2 skeleton against: 5+ drow hordes, dragons with infinite invisible stalkers, werewyverns, eyes ... Do I need to continue?

    Mailsoned enemies on web... You mean those 50% magic resist drow hordes in a pit? Or those eyes? Are you serious? Or just not realise you solo, and think playing party?

    weapons: forget Belm and Kundane. Those hit absolutly nothing in ToB. And even if they would, the enemy AC is sohigh, and bard thac0 is so low, you won't ba able to hit squar.


    But I see a challenge forming: your choice of weapon must be Belm + Kundane for the entire game (except clay golems). You may not use spike traps. You may not get Gauntlets of Extraodinary Specialisation. Must kill Ravager by Skeleton summons, wands, Greater Malaison and Web ONLY. And you must do all fights faster then a fighter or a mage! Let's do it! Bard is strongest?
    My bet is against you...

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 2,939
    edited January 18
    twillight said:

    But I see a challenge forming: your choice of weapon must be Belm + Kundane for the entire game (except clay golems). You may not use spike traps. You may not get Gauntlets of Extraodinary Specialisation. Must kill Ravager by Skeleton summons, wands, Greater Malaison and Web ONLY. And you must do all fights faster then a fighter or a mage! Let's do it! Bard is strongest?
    My bet is against you...

    I don't understand the basis for the challenge. I'm suggesting that a blade's strengths are because it can use a range of strategies, but your challenge is suggesting restricting those to ones inappropriate for that particular enemy.

    I only ever play no-reload, but I'll happily play a solo blade in my next attempt to try and demonstrate it's got the tools to be able to make progress throughout the game B).

    RAM021JuliusBorisovlolien
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,006
    twillight said:

    "spell immunity can be used to lock in buffs, with spell shield protecting even" - for 1-2 seconds. Ye, fine.
    And again: along the defense must rise the offense too, as bard is without both.
    And I tell you, even 0 casttime canand will be interrupted regularly where you'd need you spells - 8 monsters kicking you donkey.

    "If you're talking about HLAs with fighters using GWW then the blade can of course use spike trap" - I said we're talking about ->ToB, so definitely including HLAs. Now as you are so darncreative, show me defeating Ravager w/o traps! "There are lots of ways to play the game successfully, the bard is the strongest!" - prove it, I challenge you! No spike traps. Beat it! Use wands! Let's see what Ravager thinks about that!
    Or trap Melissan. The first time. Ye, that's kinda problematic.

    Let's see whatenemies you have in ToB you wanne pit your 1-2 skeleton against: 5+ drow hordes, dragons with infinite invisible stalkers, werewyverns, eyes ... Do I need to continue?

    Mailsoned enemies on web... You mean those 50% magic resist drow hordes in a pit? Or those eyes? Are you serious? Or just not realise you solo, and think playing party?

    weapons: forget Belm and Kundane. Those hit absolutly nothing in ToB. And even if they would, the enemy AC is sohigh, and bard thac0 is so low, you won't ba able to hit squar.


    But I see a challenge forming: your choice of weapon must be Belm + Kundane for the entire game (except clay golems). You may not use spike traps. You may not get Gauntlets of Extraodinary Specialisation. Must kill Ravager by Skeleton summons, wands, Greater Malaison and Web ONLY. And you must do all fights faster then a fighter or a mage! Let's do it! Bard is strongest?
    My bet is against you...

    Respectful behavior is mandatory per the Site Rules. Not recommended; mandatory. @Grond0 has disagreed with you without challenging your credibility or issuing challenges.

    For the record, Alesia has already done a solo no-reload run of the entire saga with a bard, with SCS and Ascension to boot. They are indeed quite capable of handling ToB.

    JuliusBorisov
  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65
    Either way, I think that wizardslayer/druid would rely on Harm and reload - a lot.

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 74
    Yes a blade can finish the game without traps, including the Ravager. I consider it one of the most fun classes to solo and have done several different runs with different methods. Of course one of my favorite is the Swiss Army knife and that gives so many options, wands meh, they can use every item or weapon in the game. Staff of the Magi, Carsomyr, something for every occasion, I like them because her bag of tricks is so very deep. To each their own though.

    A druids summons and energy blades made soloing ToB, until the final battle, so easy. I have never been able to solo Mel with a druid. I have done it with a 22 Kensai/23 Druid, it took a few tries if I remember right. Fyi, druid levels were murder. I have also done it with a Shapeshifter/Fighter with the old paw dispel exploit. Not proud of that one but it was fun. Maybe a Wizard Slayer/Druid is possible would be fun to try.

    Grond0ArctodusJuliusBorisov
  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65

    a
    For the record, Alesia has already done a solo no-reload run of the entire saga with a bard, with SCS and Ascension to boot. They are indeed quite capable of handling ToB.

    Heared the claim, seen no proof. Also, who knows what those mods do with the game-balance, so even IF there'd be proof, it'd be debatable.

    Make a claim - give to evidence. When a person goes against pure numbers, that's not disagreement. I consider that trolling.

    Yes a blade can finish the game without traps, including the Ravager.

    A druids summons and energy blades made soloing ToB, until the final battle, so easy. I have never been able to solo Mel with a druid. I have done it with a 22 Kensai/23 Druid, it took a few tries if I remember right. Fyi, druid levels were murder. I have also done it with a Shapeshifter/Fighter with the old paw dispel exploit. Not proud of that one but it was fun. Maybe a Wizard Slayer/Druid is possible would be fun to try.

    Again the claim w/o proof, and contrary to experience. Do it, upload the video, give the link.

    On druids: I had a lvl 9 berserker -> druid dualclass. Passed the whole thing: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/675794#Comment_675794
    Was a challenge. None says any class/kit/combination would be actually impossible. But there are good nominees to the "weakest".
    Bard is one. Still need to see if it can defeat Amelissan (for the first go, as the rest is just formality with traps and a scroll of wish if necessary). My other nominee is the wizardslayer/druid (no boots of speed, no potions, very limited inventory). Maybe someone has other idea - open to it,

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 1,905
    twillight said:

    Make a claim - give to evidence. When a person goes against pure numbers, that's not disagreement. I consider that trolling.

    What numbers?

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 74
    Thank you for the links. I had forgotten what a fun read that was.

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 74




    Okay so I am playing a Wizard Slayer/Druid. I am having more problems with remembering what is where and what to watch out for than playing the WS/D. This is my first walkthrough in a long time so there are things that I just forgot.

    So my takes so far.
    Only healing potions is rough. I rely on potions to no reload, that and knowledge of the game. Means I had to reload once. The Unseeing Eye trap at the questions bridge. I still don't remember what that trap is. I slept and threw on every protection that I had and went through on my second attempt.
    I wasn't expecting that I could use all armors and shields, which was a pleasant surprise. Without the shield of harmony I was looking at using the unicorn spear to prevent hold. Ugh! That is huge and the added bonus of plate armor is great.
    Boots! I don't know what other boots I can wear but I can wear the boots of speed. Not a game changer but it is appreciated.
    I don't know if I can use the protection scrolls. I didn't think so and gave crap intelligence couldn't use them anyway but they don't say they can't be used by Wizard Slayer. Anyone know?
    I thought that not being able to identify would be no problem. Wrong. I count on the Air Staff to finish the astral prison and I couldn't use it. Ended up using 6 charges from the rod of resurrection to survive, made me so mad.
    Not having reliable negative plane protection is getting rough but manageable. So far anyway. Spectral brand has negative plane protection right? I may have to reload to get it. I will have to do Sendai first so it can be upgraded. Hmmm... dunno.

    I have grand mastery in sling and need one more pip to have grand mastery in scimitars. Not sure where I will go after that. The sling from Joluv just makes battling mages so easy that I was getting lazy with my protections and Tolgaris almost got me when the other mage made me afraid. Lucky enough she is not the best spellcaster and he used most of his good spells before his failure rate went back to zero.
    Summons tank most of the time. Though I have used the simmy at times, she can tank almost anything but she also puts out a lot of damage from the back lines so I usually just leave her there. Now I have elemental princes and they can take a beating.

    Anyway I am getting bored and will go to my Blade for a little while. I usually have 2-4 going at once, I will get back to this. I wanted to post this now while it is still fresh in my mind.

    RAM021JuliusBorisovlolien
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,200
    The trick for a solid Wizard Slayer run is to hoard all the kinds of weapons (even if you don't have proficiency in it) and shields.

    My WS had a sword for casting silence, another one for haste, another one for mirror image, another one for Sunray, another one to shut down psionics, another one to...

    Well, you got the idea.

    Get a Bag of Holding ASAP and turn every stone looking for loot.

    If you wish to get an easier time on equipment I made a changing in the WS kit (compatible with Wizard Slayer Rebalancing Mod) that allows you to use any item that gives Magic Resistance or Magic Damage Resistance and the potions vs. magic (protection, shielding, blocking) on top of that.

    tbone1RAM021JuliusBorisovAlesia_BH
  • twillighttwillight Member Posts: 65
    edited January 22


    For the record, Alesia has already done a solo no-reload run of the entire saga with a bard, with SCS and Ascension to boot. They are indeed quite capable of handling ToB.


    Aside that it is some horribly modded game., thus instantly mostly disqualifies on "who knows where the game balance went", still looked it. Right there realised I saw this, and already told it seems usless, so just skipping to the Melissan-battle.
    I'll quote:

    " injure her from a distance using the Wand of Frost and Sling Bullets. Every Focus must be hit.you need a clear Aura when she says "praeses." - The wand of frost is obviously horrendously upped in that mod, and have no idea whatthe other words mean => no help at all, but the strategy is obviously unmaintainable in the clean game. Thus the link has no use.


    Okay so I am playing a Wizard Slayer/Druid. I am having more problems with remembering what is where and what to watch out for than playing the WS/D. T

    I'm sorry, but what are you doing?
    You obviously just pull things out of memory, not to mention you forgot to start in the first game. I know you pull things just from memory, as a) you instantly have all the gold in the world, signed by Plate of Balduran b) you want to upp Spectral Brand in SoA? You are highly disqualified.

    But what, can wear MAGICAL BOOTS? I checked, and they can. And it IS a gamechanger. Most powerful item in the game is the boots of speed.
    The kit-description says they should not be able to use ANY magic item aside weapon and armor. Yes, they can use protection scrolls too. And helmets. And shield. The only thing they can not use are some potions, wands, and jewelry. That's lame. Ok, also no belts. Still, w/o wands, the fight with Sharevok sounds at least semi-interesting. Of course the fun is mostly ruined by the fact that you do have Boots of Speed :(

    ----------

    Either way, as Wizard Slayer is not working as the game said it should, this conversation ends here, becoming meaningless.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 497
    twillight said:



    Aside that it is some horribly modded game., thus instantly mostly disqualifies on "who knows where the game balance went", still looked it. Right there realised I saw this, and already told it seems usless, so just skipping to the Melissan-battle.
    I'll quote:

    " injure her from a distance using the Wand of Frost and Sling Bullets. Every Focus must be hit.you need a clear Aura when she says "praeses." - The wand of frost is obviously horrendously upped in that mod, and have no idea whatthe other words mean => no help at all, but the strategy is obviously unmaintainable in the clean game. Thus the link has no use.

    I find it funny that you'd think mods must have "upped" the frost wand, when wands were actually overpowered in the original "clean" game. The Cloudkill one ignored magic resistance in unmodded old BG2.

    RAM021
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