What to do with Parry
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,767
"We need player opinions about requests in the “Needs More Discussion” column. For example, there are currently 8 ideas about how to fix the Parry skill in NWN:EE expressed by the community. While we’ll definitely do something with this skill (in the same time keeping it not overpowered), it would help a lot if a consensus in the community could be reached." http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/01/january-19-livestream-recap.html
As proposed in the forum discussion about Parry, a poll could help define what the community think.
So vote on what to do with this skill:
As proposed in the forum discussion about Parry, a poll could help define what the community think.
So vote on what to do with this skill:
- What to do with Parry113 votes
- The idea of parry fatigue when parrying per round would level the playing field for other combatants but still allow parry to have some use.0.88%
- Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.28.32%
- Fix that the skill will only ever parry the first attack per "flurry", regardless of how many attacks it can block per round.0.88%
- Parry should work as intended. You are standing still deflecting attacks, its a combat mode that doesn't allow to do anything else.10.62%
- Do reasonable. Don't make this ability overpowered.7.08%
- Remove Parry. Or introduce an option to hide or deactivate it.9.73%
- Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.32.74%
- Don't do anything to existing behavior.1.77%
- Leave the parry mechanic as it is right now. Improve the riposte (Higher threat range or no dodge AC).4.42%
- Another solution - including a combination of several options (please, suggest).3.54%
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I realize there are other types of players, who would like different fixes/changes, so as long as Beamdog keeps anything they do "optional", and they stick with their policy of not breaking existing content, I'd be fine with whatever they do to improve it. That way, anyone can decide on their own if and when they want to convert existing content.
Even an ini and/or scripted option switch to "use old parry" would be good enough, if the fix is made as a standard thing. That would allow players to use what they like, and servers/mod designers to override client settings for as long as they want (also giving them time to update existing workarounds if the fix causes issues in their current content).
After reading the final option, I realized that I would have intended to select #9 'Another Option' as a combination of options seemingly would be the correct choice to illustrate my desire for a combination of #1+#7
After the discussion in the original thread I'm inclined towards fixing it actually. Yes it might become too powerfull but it will only ever be a problem on persistent worlds. If possible make parry moddable, but even if i cannot be done, there are still lot of options what to do with parry if anyone finds it too unbalanced or whatever. We can remove it (and while that was problem before, with client loading haks in charactewr creation I think removing parry is no longer an issue), we can apply penalties to skill, we can apply penalties to ab/whatever or limit items with parry skill bonuses.
Be careful what you wish for...
1: Change the "Improved Parry" feat so that it doesn't grant a +4 to the Parry skill. Instead have the feat improve parry's riposte, which without the feat should be less capable.
2: Alternately or additionally, the "Improved Parry" feat can enable movement while parrying. Without the feat, movement would be disabled while parrying.
3: Instead, alter Parry so it functions only on base skill ranks instead of overall Parry skill. Alternately, make it so that blocking relies on total Parry but riposting relies only on base skill ranks. Or vice versa
4: Instead, keep Parry as it is now, but add an additional effect: EVERY 5 BASE RANKS IN PARRY INCREASE ARMOR CLASS BY 1 DEFLECTION BONUS. This bonus is removed if flat-footed, wearing a shield, unarmed, dual wielding, or wielding a ranged weapon or a melee weapon that can't be finessed (see the feat "Weapon Finesse"). The "Improved Parry" feat grants its usual bonus but also enables Parry's effects while wielding a non-finessed melee weapon. The "Improved Unarmed Strike" feat enables Parry's effects while unarmed. The "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" feat enables Parry's effects while dual wielding.
See a similar version of Parry below:
nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Parry
See also: nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Two_Weapon_Defense
I've seen Parry implemented on that persistent world, where it is a popular but not must-have skill to invest in, despite the world being low magic. Some, perhaps many, prefer to get their non-stackable Deflection AC bonuses via equipment or spells rather than invest precious skill points. But Parry is not useless there and is loved by some, especially monks, rogues, and dual wielders.
And aren't those the type of dexterous characters that developers originally had in mind as Parry users?
There is no consensus to what should be done with it. What is known is it not an official rule. So this option will allow those who want it to keep it and those that want to follow the standard rules to get rid of the skill.
As such, I'd leave it as it is, but given that people don't like it as it is and that I'm all for dehardcoding stuff, I've selected the option to make it customizable.
I don't, however, think that removing Parry should even be an option on this poll. NWN:EE is all about backward compatibility and removing it would be extremely detrimental to it.
Also, while I am all for allowing builders to modify its behavior, I'm against modifying the default behavior. While less harmful than removing the skill outright, modules may exist that are balanced around the skill's current behavior (they may even implement their own Parry modifications that could make the skill broken if its behavior is changed or even bugged).
I'll repeat what I said earlier - removing the skill is all harm and no benefits, because those who don't want to don't have to use it.
Parry is a mechanics that may be flawed, but it's an intended behavior nevertheless. NWN:EE should not go the route of re-balancing core game mechanics, which Trent and Phill said themselves in one of the streams. Improving Parry is exactly a change like that, and so, should be left up to module builders. Changing the skill's (default) behavior or removing it altogether is a bad idea.
I like server setting.
SKILL_PARRY_FREE_RIPOSTE - would allow one per incoming attack
SKILL_PARRY_SINGLE_RIPOSTE - Would allow only once per turn
SKILL_PARRY_DEFAULT_RIPOSTE - Default is as-is
Home Town would use Free Riposte but I would want only a single riposte if I were hosting a more dnd type world.
Please leave it open to persistent world development.
"Well it's just my opinion that on the plethora of servers I've played, POTM (Prisoners of the Mist) is the only one that managed to do anything interesting with Parry. While I think that the power levels (AKA What bonus at what level interval) should be tweakable along with everything else, the general concept of parry adding an AC bonus when not weilding a shield is a good one."
From here:
"Icebox List
Cards in the Icebox list are features we've investigated and want to tackle but they are not the highest priority yet."
Anyway, if you questions about this feature request, feel free to ask them during a livestream(s).
Closing the thread for now. Thanks for the feedback, everyone! It is very valuable for the team.