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What to do with Parry

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 17,483
"We need player opinions about requests in the “Needs More Discussion” column. For example, there are currently 8 ideas about how to fix the Parry skill in NWN:EE expressed by the community. While we’ll definitely do something with this skill (in the same time keeping it not overpowered), it would help a lot if a consensus in the community could be reached." http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/01/january-19-livestream-recap.html

As proposed in the forum discussion about Parry, a poll could help define what the community think.

So vote on what to do with this skill:

What to do with Parry 107 votes

The idea of parry fatigue when parrying per round would level the playing field for other combatants but still allow parry to have some use.
0%
Rifkin 1 vote
Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
28%
FlashburnNic_MercyRAM021booinyoureyesKilgorSkatangugulug5000Cvijetahockmah2cherryzerothemazingnessSorenclansunstartfoxTemplarDrakeKagaliMadHatterGrymlordeEldricksandronejm 30 votes
Fix that the skill will only ever parry the first attack per "flurry", regardless of how many attacks it can block per round.
0%
Faerûn 1 vote
Parry should work as intended. You are standing still deflecting attacks, its a combat mode that doesn't allow to do anything else.
11%
FilipseknasfkirenicusPstemarieraz651HunterRayder93dunahanKendrixArgonOzzynlAnonySimonHimmelweissMAD_Otaku 12 votes
Do reasonable. Don't make this ability overpowered.
6%
The_Guilty_Partyhelmo1977MikeSDaevelonmetagamerSerpentcasadechrisso 7 votes
Remove Parry. Or introduce an option to hide or deactivate it.
8%
mangamuscle1varangianBluesorcildaronSnottlingFreshLemonBunrobomagonKranyumStratovarius 9 votes
Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
33%
Dark_AnsemJimbo7136DoubledimasProontsmady3TallySherincallZwerkulesTrinitalGorgonChris_theVikingTaro94thirdmouseSnafulatorTheBarbarianmeaglynRifleLeroycharissa1066LyraVrenPaphjort 36 votes
Don't do anything to existing behavior.
1%
JonlunCalgacus 2 votes
Leave the parry mechanic as it is right now. Improve the riposte (Higher threat range or no dodge AC).
4%
ThorssonFardragonWarChiefZekehda_nwnSynnBlackdagger 5 votes
Another solution - including a combination of several options (please, suggest).
3%
ShadooowDerpCityfasthd97Atrophiederic 4 votes

Comments

  • metagamermetagamer Member Posts: 26
    Do reasonable. Don't make this ability overpowered.
    I guess that the best option would be "Do reasonable". it is a really interesting feat but it would work only for pvp.

  • AnonySimonAnonySimon Member Posts: 26
    Parry should work as intended. You are standing still deflecting attacks, its a combat mode that doesn't allow to do anything else.
    I am slightly curious as to the particular differences between options 2 and 4. I interpreted #4 to allow you to attempt to block ANY NUMBER of attacks, but will be ONLY allowed a Riposte a number of attacks equal to the defender's maximum number of attacks.

  • GorgonGorgon Member Posts: 22
    Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
    I voted for option to mod it/make it a PW config option because PW's are all that matter to me, as far as NWN goes. I assume many PWs and custom mods already have their own "workarounds" for how parry behaves, and they may not want to implement whatever is done to fix it (at least not right away).

    I realize there are other types of players, who would like different fixes/changes, so as long as Beamdog keeps anything they do "optional", and they stick with their policy of not breaking existing content, I'd be fine with whatever they do to improve it. That way, anyone can decide on their own if and when they want to convert existing content.

    Even an ini and/or scripted option switch to "use old parry" would be good enough, if the fix is made as a standard thing. That would allow players to use what they like, and servers/mod designers to override client settings for as long as they want (also giving them time to update existing workarounds if the fix causes issues in their current content).

  • RifkinRifkin Member Posts: 112
    The idea of parry fatigue when parrying per round would level the playing field for other combatants but still allow parry to have some use.
    Apparently I can't change my vote, but I intended to vote for both #7, with #1 as the new default configuration of Parry.

    After reading the final option, I realized that I would have intended to select #9 'Another Option' as a combination of options seemingly would be the correct choice to illustrate my desire for a combination of #1+#7

  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 272
    Another solution - including a combination of several options (please, suggest).
    As I voted in the other thread, #7 feels like a must with the direction Beamdog seems to be taking the game, and with the addition of the "Allow options to hide/deactivate it" I feel #6 would be kind of necessary for the implementation of new rulesets everyone wants to have a go at. I otherwise like the sound doing a mix between #1 and #2. I'd be totally fine with just #7 and the latter portion of #6 though, as that'd let everyone have what they want.

  • fasthd97fasthd97 Member Posts: 34
    Another solution - including a combination of several options (please, suggest).
    Make it work as intended block all atttacks and leave it open to PW modders.

    OzzynlShadooowBradgeFlashburn
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 313
    Another solution - including a combination of several options (please, suggest).
    fasthd97 said:

    Make it work as intended block all atttacks and leave it open to PW modders.

    This.

    After the discussion in the original thread I'm inclined towards fixing it actually. Yes it might become too powerfull but it will only ever be a problem on persistent worlds. If possible make parry moddable, but even if i cannot be done, there are still lot of options what to do with parry if anyone finds it too unbalanced or whatever. We can remove it (and while that was problem before, with client loading haks in charactewr creation I think removing parry is no longer an issue), we can apply penalties to skill, we can apply penalties to ab/whatever or limit items with parry skill bonuses.

    Bradgesandronejm
  • ThorssonThorsson Member Posts: 187
    Leave the parry mechanic as it is right now. Improve the riposte (Higher threat range or no dodge AC).
    It's not only a problem on PWs. Any existing module might be unbalanced if it becomes too powerful.

    Be careful what you wish for...

  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,653
    Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
    I would prefer that #7 be done no matter what choice is made, but I still stand by #2 and #4.

    BradgeProont
  • BradgeBradge Member Posts: 22
    edited January 2018
    Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
    I have several ideas, not all of which are compatible with each other. My last idea below is my favorite. As for the poll, I favor options 2, 4, and 7. Whatever is decided, fix the description of Parry to reflect its actual function.

    1: Change the "Improved Parry" feat so that it doesn't grant a +4 to the Parry skill. Instead have the feat improve parry's riposte, which without the feat should be less capable.

    2: Alternately or additionally, the "Improved Parry" feat can enable movement while parrying. Without the feat, movement would be disabled while parrying.

    3: Instead, alter Parry so it functions only on base skill ranks instead of overall Parry skill. Alternately, make it so that blocking relies on total Parry but riposting relies only on base skill ranks. Or vice versa

    4: Instead, keep Parry as it is now, but add an additional effect: EVERY 5 BASE RANKS IN PARRY INCREASE ARMOR CLASS BY 1 DEFLECTION BONUS. This bonus is removed if flat-footed, wearing a shield, unarmed, dual wielding, or wielding a ranged weapon or a melee weapon that can't be finessed (see the feat "Weapon Finesse"). The "Improved Parry" feat grants its usual bonus but also enables Parry's effects while wielding a non-finessed melee weapon. The "Improved Unarmed Strike" feat enables Parry's effects while unarmed. The "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" feat enables Parry's effects while dual wielding.

    See a similar version of Parry below:
    nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Parry

    See also: nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Two_Weapon_Defense

    I've seen Parry implemented on that persistent world, where it is a popular but not must-have skill to invest in, despite the world being low magic. Some, perhaps many, prefer to get their non-stackable Deflection AC bonuses via equipment or spells rather than invest precious skill points. But Parry is not useless there and is loved by some, especially monks, rogues, and dual wielders.

    And aren't those the type of dexterous characters that developers originally had in mind as Parry users?

    Post edited by Bradge on
  • HunterRayder93HunterRayder93 Member Posts: 265
    Parry should work as intended. You are standing still deflecting attacks, its a combat mode that doesn't allow to do anything else.
    And more logical to make the ability work as expected, I would also add another thing ... add the panel Modes of NWN2 from my point of view and very comfortable and takes away a lot of space from the quick game bar to make room for other things .

    Bradge
  • ThorssonThorsson Member Posts: 187
    Leave the parry mechanic as it is right now. Improve the riposte (Higher threat range or no dodge AC).
    If you do end up making it work like the description the key thing is to take away the Skill Focus Feats. These can be removed for specific skills I know.

  • ildaronildaron Member Posts: 52
    Remove Parry. Or introduce an option to hide or deactivate it.
    I voted to remove it or have an option to disable it.

    There is no consensus to what should be done with it. What is known is it not an official rule. So this option will allow those who want it to keep it and those that want to follow the standard rules to get rid of the skill.

  • Taro94Taro94 Member Posts: 125
    edited January 2018
    Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
    As I've explained in the previous thread, I don't see Parry as useless on high levels. It's not overpowered or even very useful, but there's still a niche in which it can be used.

    As such, I'd leave it as it is, but given that people don't like it as it is and that I'm all for dehardcoding stuff, I've selected the option to make it customizable.

    I don't, however, think that removing Parry should even be an option on this poll. NWN:EE is all about backward compatibility and removing it would be extremely detrimental to it.

    Also, while I am all for allowing builders to modify its behavior, I'm against modifying the default behavior. While less harmful than removing the skill outright, modules may exist that are balanced around the skill's current behavior (they may even implement their own Parry modifications that could make the skill broken if its behavior is changed or even bugged).

    I'll repeat what I said earlier - removing the skill is all harm and no benefits, because those who don't want to don't have to use it.

    Parry is a mechanics that may be flawed, but it's an intended behavior nevertheless. NWN:EE should not go the route of re-balancing core game mechanics, which Trent and Phill said themselves in one of the streams. Improving Parry is exactly a change like that, and so, should be left up to module builders. Changing the skill's (default) behavior or removing it altogether is a bad idea.

    Atrophiederic
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 3,966
    Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
    For me, Parry should be a defensive mode for a swashie kind of fighter or for a rogue/mage type to further increase defense while casting spells and jacking in a couple of riposte attacks in between. I don't see how this can be too OP since I've never really played MP in any "persistent worlds" and have zero idea how this would effect that. Nor do I care since I will only play SP and since I like to play bard/Rogue/mage-type characters I would actually like to have this mechanic as per the description.

  • Chris_theVikingChris_theViking Member Posts: 49
    Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
    Some servers may want it as-is, some may enjoy a nice powerful skill.
    I like server setting.
    SKILL_PARRY_FREE_RIPOSTE - would allow one per incoming attack
    SKILL_PARRY_SINGLE_RIPOSTE - Would allow only once per turn
    SKILL_PARRY_DEFAULT_RIPOSTE - Default is as-is
    Home Town would use Free Riposte but I would want only a single riposte if I were hosting a more dnd type world.

    Taro94Bradge
  • ildaronildaron Member Posts: 52
    Remove Parry. Or introduce an option to hide or deactivate it.
    Taro94 said:



    Parry is a mechanics that may be flawed, but it's an intended behavior nevertheless. NWN:EE should not go the route of re-balancing core game mechanics, which Trent and Phill said themselves in one of the streams. Improving Parry is exactly a change like that, and so, should be left up to module builders. Changing the skill's (default) behavior or removing it altogether is a bad idea.

    This is why I choose the option I did. A button to deactivate it for those who do not want to see it or left in for those who do (without re-balancing or adjusting). This will keep everything backwards compatible while those of us who wish to remain with the standard D&D rules may do so. I win for both sides.

  • Chris_theVikingChris_theViking Member Posts: 49
    edited January 2018
    Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
    As a global feature I would like to be able to disable any skill. For example disarm and pickpocket are problematic for a lot of servers and require workarounds or outright banning. Rogues get pickpocket in the recommended package so for servers to get some maneuverability in the implementation of skills as well as being able to turn them on or off at least for certain problematical skills. it pretty easy to disable feats with 2da overrides by putting the requirements out of reach.

    ildaronProontAtrophiederic
  • TaiosTaios Member Posts: 4
    Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
    It needs work, but if used as intended it should block all attacks and be exhaustive.
    Please leave it open to persistent world development.

  • meaglynmeaglyn Member Posts: 44
    Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
    Making it customizable seems to be a no-brainer. If done right it pretty much includes all the other options...

    Proontcharissa1066Atrophiederic
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 125
    Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
    meaglyn said:

    Making it customizable seems to be a no-brainer. If done right it pretty much includes all the other options...

    I voted for fixing it per the description but actually I agree with this, on the condition that it's fixed first so that even if moddable it actually can work per the description. I just didn't want to vote other since it was so amorphous.

    ProontBradge
  • charissa1066charissa1066 Member Posts: 33
    Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
    meaglyn said:

    Making it customizable seems to be a no-brainer. If done right it pretty much includes all the other options...

    Give people the option of keeping it "as is" or adjusting it.

    ProontChris_theViking
  • BradgeBradge Member Posts: 22
    Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
    Shared with me by another NWN player on Facebook:

    "Well it's just my opinion that on the plethora of servers I've played, POTM (Prisoners of the Mist) is the only one that managed to do anything interesting with Parry. While I think that the power levels (AKA What bonus at what level interval) should be tweakable along with everything else, the general concept of parry adding an AC bonus when not weilding a shield is a good one."

  • ThorssonThorsson Member Posts: 187
    Leave the parry mechanic as it is right now. Improve the riposte (Higher threat range or no dodge AC).
    Indeed, adding an AC bonus would not be overpowered (as long as it was not readily available to arcane casters) and yet still be worthwhile.

    sandronejmBradgeProont
  • casadechrissocasadechrisso Member Posts: 12
    Do reasonable. Don't make this ability overpowered.
    I had trouble voting without multiple options, and I'm not good at numbers crunching anyway so the exact details behind the mechanics and the reasons why it could be overpowered escapes me. Note that I never played in a high level PVP environment, my view comes from low magic, say lvl 1-20 worlds. In those scenarios I always considered Parry as a fun skill for weaklings against bullies - after all most characters who can max out the skill are weaker classes with more skill points - the typical fighter wouldn't waste their precious 4 points anyway and concentrate on attacks, while your typical rogue might have it as a chance to annoy those high BAB barbarians - think Arya Stark against The Hound. Of course all that skill point reasoning makes less sense once you count in magic items like parrying gloves any of those bullies can use, making them even more untouchable - however, two fighters in parry mode against each other is a boring sight to watch... Anyway, my point is I'd like it to work just like in my imagination up there, whatever that means in a mechanical way. Give that weakling a chance to escape that mean fighter bully! :)

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 687
    Remove Parry. Or introduce an option to hide or deactivate it.
    I voted remove it, optionally, however what I recommend is to leave it as is by default and allow it to be customized with softcoding and an option to remove it. I voted remove it because I already had a feeling softcoding would get the most votes and no option encompasses both choices which are compatible.

  • AtrophiedericAtrophiederic Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 113
    Another solution - including a combination of several options (please, suggest).
    I would swing with all of the customization options - let PWs mod it, let people hide/disable it if they like ... in other words, open it up/change it so we can change it.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,744
    To me it looks like the op considers parry to be powerful. So I wanna know about this, are people under the impression that parry is useful in any kind of way whatsoever?

  • Taro94Taro94 Member Posts: 125
    Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
    scriver said:

    To me it looks like the op considers parry to be powerful. So I wanna know about this, are people under the impression that parry is useful in any kind of way whatsoever?

    Yes, I do believe it's useful in some ways, even at high levels. Let me quote my post from another thread:
    Taro94 said:

    From what I looked at it it doesn't look like Parry is trash at higher levels at all.

    In 1v1 it can rather easily parry all three (1 per flurry) attacks that Parry can currently attempt to block. This includes the full BAB attack. A build that will be guaranteed to perform a riposte at each of these blocks is also easily achievable.

    So, in a scenario of two melee characters battling it out with 5 attacks per round each, if the 1st of them is in parry mode, they will lose two attacks (but the ones with the lowest BAB), but their opponent will lose three due to them being parried (and that includes their full BAB attack).

    The more attacks per round the parrying character has, the less effective it becomes because he'll lose more, but on the bright side, if they have only 4 attacks per round, he'll lose only one, basically.

    Of course it's a situational advantage, because parry won't work against multiple opponents, spellcasters and shooters, but in 1v1 it appears that parrying is more profitable than not parrying.


  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 17,483
    The card has been moved to the Icebox.

    From here:

    "Icebox List
    Cards in the Icebox list are features we've investigated and want to tackle but they are not the highest priority yet."

    Anyway, if you questions about this feature request, feel free to ask them during a livestream(s).

    Closing the thread for now. Thanks for the feedback, everyone! It is very valuable for the team.

This discussion has been closed.