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Anyone else feel bad fighting the crusaders?

GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
I mean...these are good people. They voluntarily march into danger following an Aasimar Paladin, risking their lives and souls.

And here comes Charname, a worldwide of destruction. Going into defensive stance, tanking platoons. With friends who will the air with acid, throws fireballs, etc...

I’m thinking this will make a RP paladin run much harder.

StummvonBordwehrbooinyoureyesJuliusBorisovDev6Arunsun10Bazza11ZaghoulBladeDancerQuartzHalfOrcBeastmasterBelgarathMTH
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Comments

  • BleriotBleriot Member Posts: 31
    There is a related discussion here https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/960896/#Comment_960896
    There's also links to a mod by which you can avoid much killing of innocents and go with Caelar for the real villain, Mr. H.

  • BleriotBleriot Member Posts: 31
    ThacoBell said:

    Well, it helps to remember that these "good" people have been sacking towns and executing people all thoughout their campaign. That being said, SoD gives a surprising number of chances to avoid a lot of direct fighting with them. (I don't want to spoil them in case you haven't finished yet).

    How much of it did you witness and how much of it is propaganda? Don't trust second-hand news, especially not in wartime. *The enemy eats babies alive...*
    This De Lancie isn't one on your side I would trust, by the way.

    Dev6
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 673
    Bleriot said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Well, it helps to remember that these "good" people have been sacking towns and executing people all thoughout their campaign. That being said, SoD gives a surprising number of chances to avoid a lot of direct fighting with them. (I don't want to spoil them in case you haven't finished yet).

    How much of it did you witness and how much of it is propaganda? Don't trust second-hand news, especially not in wartime. *The enemy eats babies alive...*
    This De Lancie isn't one on your side I would trust, by the way.
    CAELAR DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!!!11one

    Raduziel
  • BleriotBleriot Member Posts: 31
    Dev6 said:

    Bleriot said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Well, it helps to remember that these "good" people have been sacking towns and executing people all thoughout their campaign. That being said, SoD gives a surprising number of chances to avoid a lot of direct fighting with them. (I don't want to spoil them in case you haven't finished yet).

    How much of it did you witness and how much of it is propaganda? Don't trust second-hand news, especially not in wartime. *The enemy eats babies alive...*
    This De Lancie isn't one on your side I would trust, by the way.
    CAELAR DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!!!11one
    SoD makes you experience it directly. You can walk into the crusaders camp prior the Cyric bridge and later outside Dragonspear walls. You talk to normal people and their wishes and sorrows - then do the same in coalition camp. What you see - no side is better or worse, all a wide range of people with all kinds of reasons why they ended up in one camp or the other.
    The ones to loathe are the Hepherniaans and Dukes and such, not Corwin or Caelar.

    Dev6RaduzielsemiticgodHalfOrcBeastmaster
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,431
    @Bleriot "no side is better or worse"

    Except you SEE the effects of the Crusade as you travel. Where exactly do you think all the refugees, all telling stories of a crusade led by a "Shining Lady" streaming into Baldur's Gate come from? The burned down inn and the now homeless people on the road who all claim that crusaders did this? There are Crusaders IN THE CRUSADER CAMP who talk about looting and burning towns they pass through. There is even a quest where you can help a crusader who warned his home town the crusade was coming so that the people could all escape safely? In fact, if you fail to get him out, he is EXECUTED and its explicitely stated for the reason of WARNING INNOCENT PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE SACKED.

    Tell me, what exactly puts the coalition on an even moral standing with a glorified band of raiders?

    Ardanisbooinyoureyessemiticgod
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
    My guess? Armies need supplies. Nobody is funding them. They are marching, and have no supply train or line. They need to live off the land. And they feel justified due to their religious convictions.

    If whimpering politicians refuse to help them, then they take what they need for their cause. They don’t kill anyone, they just take material goods. And if someone warns people to remove what the crusade needs...Well...that puts them at risk of starving, right?

    Dev6RaduzielHalfOrcBeastmaster
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,194
    ThacoBell said:

    Where exactly do you think all the refugees, all telling stories of a crusade led by a "Shining Lady" streaming into Baldur's Gate come from?

    Killing the thieving "refugee" invaders who stole my money and had the audacity to talk back some nonsense like "we did the right thing" also felt incredibly satisfying. I kinda wished the quest was extended so that I could find those poor starving sods and shake my money out of their sorry hides...

    RaduzielHalfOrcBeastmaster
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,431
    @Grum There a few instances of the Crusaders killing those who don't join their cause.

    booinyoureyes
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    You kill like everyone in these games. Half the time you're not even introduced to who the latest monstrous humanoid is and why you're fighting.

    Some pretty face says god is on their side and suddenly you feel guilty.

    Artona10Bazza11HalfOrcBeastmasterDesiderata
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    Grum said:

    You kill like everyone in these games. Half the time you're not even introduced to who the latest monstrous humanoid is and why you're fighting.

    Some pretty face says god is on their side and suddenly you feel guilty.

    In BG1 you kill...

    1: Kobolds
    2: Bandits
    3: Iron Throne Mercenaries
    4: Gnolls
    5: Xvarts
    6: Ogres
    7: Undead

    Most of whom are actively doing evil things. Only the xvart village makes me feel bad.

    BG2’s enemies are also pretty evil...

    1: Vampires
    2: Shades
    3: Beholders
    4: Some bandits and evil mercs
    5: Drow
    6: Sahugains
    7: Demons and Devils
    8: Undead

    So again...few enemies that you feel bad killing

    ToB has more of the same. Few foes you feel bad killing. Maybe the monks? Though they are made out to be heartless jerks.

    —-

    Here you have varied people, followering An Aasimar from a family of heroic Paladins. On a quest which a Charname could well be on. They act like a real world army of crusaders, with the good and the bad that comes of it.

    That’s...different. It makes slaughtering them feel less heroic. Much more conflicted.
    If by "actively doing evil things" you mean they had a red circle around them, sure.

    Again, you're not even introduced to most of these people. You often travel way out into the middle of nowhere to find them, far away from any non-monsterous civilization that they could be bothering. You don't know a single thing they've done, good or bad, let alone why they did it.

    You've already defended The Crusader's pillaging saying they need supplies to live. So, hypothetically speaking, if those ogres you met five miles from nowhere had been hassling the people of Nashkel, who's to say they wouldn't have some similar story? Do ogres not need to eat the same as anybody?

    ArtonaDev6
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    The crusaders have red circles around them to, so...

    Artonabob_vengsemiticgod
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
    Well...the ogres murder you. For walking by.
    Crusaders take your shyt for their war effort, as they plan to march on hell to free the souls of unjustly tortured people. In their minds, they’re risking their souls too...so you can suck it up and give them your food/whatever.

    One is actively evil. The other is being a huge jerk, but a realistic one.

    Killing one group makes me feel heroic. Killing the other makes me feel conflicted.

    BelgarathMTH
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    edited March 8
    The ogres were minding their own business until you came to them.

    The crusaders are enemy combatants in a war, actively running around leaving a trail of bloodshed wherever they go.

    Edit: They literally send assassins to you in your home within minutes of starting the game. You weren't really given an option to just live and let live with these guys.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,918
    edited March 8
    Grum said:

    Well...the ogres murder you. For walking by.
    Crusaders take your shyt for their war effort, as they plan to march on hell to free the souls of unjustly tortured people. In their minds, they’re risking their souls too...so you can suck it up and give them your food/whatever.

    One is actively evil. The other is being a huge jerk, but a realistic one.

    Killing one group makes me feel heroic. Killing the other makes me feel conflicted.

    I think this is a bit black & white (or maybe red and blue :D). There are plenty of situations in BGEE where things are much greyer:
    - do you actually pay the ogrillons guarding the bridge to the gnoll stronghold when they ask for a reasonable toll?
    - you've already mentioned the xvart village.
    - what about all the 'enemies' who only turn hostile because you've invaded their home (like Sunin)?
    - ever killed Shandalar's daughters?
    - have you obstructed the Flaming Fist just trying to do his job with Viconia (or Greywolf with Prism)?
    - is Bassilus actually evil or just a bit weird?
    - do you keep the Revenant's dagger, despite being told it has a legitimate claim on it (there's a similar situation with the Doomsayer)?
    - do you defend yourself when attacked by the paladin in Baldur's Gate (or Entillis Fulsom)? After all they are only attacking what they perceive to be evil.

    Post edited by Grond0 on
    Chronicler10Bazza11ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    Grond0 said:

    Grum said:

    Well...the ogres murder you. For walking by.
    Crusaders take your shyt for their war effort, as they plan to march on hell to free the souls of unjustly tortured people. In their minds, they’re risking their souls too...so you can suck it up and give them your food/whatever.

    One is actively evil. The other is being a huge jerk, but a realistic one.

    Killing one group makes me feel heroic. Killing the other makes me feel conflicted.

    I think this is a bit black & white (or maybe red and blue :D). There are plenty of situations in BGEE where things are much greyer:
    - do you actually pay the ogrillons guarding the bridge to the gnoll stronghold when they ask for a reasonable toll?
    - you've already mentioned the xvart village.
    - what about all the 'enemies' who only turn hostile because you've invaded their home (like Sunin)?
    - ever killed Shandalar's daughters?
    - have you obstructed the Flaming Fist just trying to do his job with Viconia (or Greywolf with Prism)?
    - is Bassilus actually evil or just a bit weird?
    - do you keep the Revenant's dagger, despite being told it has a legitimate claim on it (there's a similar situation with the Doomsayer)?
    - do you defend yourself when attacked by the paladin in Baldur's Gate (or Entillis Fulsom)?
    With Basilus I always got the impression the problem was he was re-animating the corpses of people's deceased loved ones, and acting out his mad fantasies with them.

    Like I guess technically it wasn't doing any tangible harm but it was quite disturbing for the people of Bereghost.

    You know I've never actually thought about this one in depth before...

    Grond0
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 1,195
    I was told they were the bad guys so no, they can drown in a lake of fire(balls).

    Raduziel
  • DaevelonDaevelon Member Posts: 485
    Always. I felt bad since the first run and still didn't change the feeling. Finally SoD brought us the background of a war without properly defined good and evil sides.
    My characters are always good-aligned (usually chaotic but can change) and for example

    i try to avoid combat against crusaders if unnecessary and for sure don't poison them when i've got the chance


    GrumQuartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,431
    @Grum the Crusaders aren't just looting, they are killing civillians. If not for that fact, I would see them as more grey.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,741
    If we're going by our own morals, the Crusaders could be anything from misguided soldiers to violent opportunists. If we go by the in-universe alignment system, the Crusaders are coded as overwhelmingly good-aligned if you try out Detect Evil or look them up in Near Infinity.

    GrumThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    Being good aligned doesn't mean much. It just means you tend to act on behalf of others instead of yourself.

    In the same way that you can't go around just killing anybody who scans positive on a Detect Evil spell, you also can't refuse to kill people just because they scan negative.

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