I'm in the Team Halfling on this. Wizard slayers need every protection they can get from weapons and armor (as they can't use potions). So Mazzy's sword from BG2 which protects agains stun (which is one of the most dangerous effects there) is a very good choice. This is one item to make possible a no-reload solo wizard slayer run.
You have to compensate halfling's 17 max STR, though: by your caster's Strength spell, by your innate abilities, by items (available further in BG1 and easily accessable in BG2).
Caster - mages, sorcerers and bards can cast Strength (lvl 2, long duration); clerics and druids can cast Strength of One (lvl 3, short duration).
If STR is not a worry, then CON shouldn't be either - there're rings of regeneration in BG2, and you can sue innate Draw Upon Holy Might to regenerate before resting/travelling.
I think halflings are better. Strength has almost no items that add to it, but plenty that completely replace it. The constitution difference will be felt during BG1, but I don't think it'll be much of an issue in BG2, while the dexterity difference will, after a temporary draw, make a comeback in Watcher's Keep.
Edit: Having said that, I feel compelled to point out that despite thinking that the halfling is better, I still prefer the dwarf. I can't plan a campaign without wanting the best endgame stats imaginable. And so a dwarf with the evil hell rewards, the Axe of Unyielding and Crom Faeyr could go meet Amelissan with the stats 25, 21, 24, which I find pretty rad.
The only way a halfling Wizard Slayer could exceed a base 18 STR is to use Crom Faeyr, Blackrazor, Angurvadal, Draw Upon Holy Might, get Hell and Machine of Lum the Mad Bonuses, have another character cast Strength or Champion's Strength on them, or have another character land the 25 stats Wish option. That's a lot of different options, but all of them are either temporary or come rather late in the game. The dwarf's STR can be higher and is also more reliable.
I am currently playing a Wizard Slayer and they can use magical helmets and boots. Rings, cloaks, amulets and bracers are a no go.
I'd lean closer to Halfling because of their +1 aim on missile weapons. A lot of mage fights start from a distance so getting that first hit in early (remember you can't rely on the boots of haste - edit, my bad, you can use boots) is essential.
Dwarves have the advantage of 19 CON, which is just 1 step away from 20. Given I wish to stick with what the description says (ti. no boots, gloves, helms, shields either), that means a dwarf don't have to visit and pay churches to get a full heal, can instead just sleep to get that with Tome of Constitution at hand.
On the other hand Halflings still get all 3 saves (unlike gnomes), and don't loose 2 CHA which means better rewards (including the +1 dagger at the start). They also loose 1 less maximum stat.
The reference in the description to armor is not intended to only refer to a hauberk (which is what goes in the 'armor' slot in the equipment screen), but all personal armor. As such it's not an anomaly that WS can use boots, helms and shields - the anomaly is that they can't use bracers. If you're allowing reloading then making things more difficult than required isn't a problem, though.
Note that WS can also use quite a number of items not mentioned in the very brief description in the game. That includes for instance healing potions and antidotes as well as tomes (you clearly already know of the latter). They can also use green scrolls - which is how you can do the sirines safely.
Whether a dwarf or halfling is preferable depends on your playstyle and which game you're playing. I would say the dwarf is a bit easier in BG1 thanks to the high strength. In BG2 the halfling does have a significant advantage in being able to use Mazzy's sword, while differences in stats make much less of a difference.
I am currently playing a Wizard Slayer and they can use magical helmets and boots. Rings, cloaks, amulets and bracers are a no go.
I'd lean closer to Halfling because of their +1 aim on missile weapons. A lot of mage fights start from a distance so getting that first hit in early (remember you can't rely on the boots of haste - edit, my bad, you can use boots) is essential.
+1 to hit with missile weapons only is nothing for a kit that gains -1 Thac0 every level.
And wizards have a lame AC anyway. If you can't touch a wizard will be due to PfMW, not AC/Thac0.
And both get shorty saves anyway - the dwarf benefits even more due to the CON boost: on top of the saves they may achieve regeneration, what opens cleric's spells slot to boost spells instead of healing.
Halflings may get a slightly higher AC (1 point lower than a dwarf if they both start with maximum Dexterity), but armor and shields are not a problem for the WS.
You're not missing "a single STR", but Exceptional Strength. That is very different.
Well, your argument about DUHM is cheating, as you're twisting the game mechanic to do something that the spell was not designed to do. High CON right from Chapter 1 will provide full healing when you sleep and every time you travel.
And if you're designing a character that will be fully developed only in ToB anything is viable.
But seems like you made your mind already, so this discussion is pointless.
You're not missing "a single STR", but Exceptional Strength. That is very different.
Well, your argument about DUHM is cheating, as you're twisting the game mechanic to do something that the spell was not designed to do. High CON right from Chapter 1 will provide full healing when you sleep and every time you travel.
And if you're designing a character that will be fully developed only in ToB anything is viable.
But seems like you made your mind already, so this discussion is pointless.
I believe the term for that is exploit. It's generally not considered "cheating" as such, but different players have different feelings about using them.
Sorry if I offend you. As a non native speaker cheating and exploiting sounds like the same to me.
I don't like them, so I don't use them and I don't plan anything based on them. But it is a personal taste, nothing against someone using them.
In fact, one of the players that I like to follow on the no-reload thread ( @semiticgod ) uses them a lot.
If you wanna take this path (exploit) I don't think I'm the right person to give advice, despite considering myself kind of an expert when it comes to WS.
The reference in the description to armor is not intended to only refer to a hauberk
Note that WS can also use quite a number of items not mentioned in the very brief description in the game. That includes for instance healing potions and antidotes as well as tomes (you clearly already know of the latter). They can also use green scrolls - which is how you can do the sirines safely.
Semantics, which the game might not be clear. Given how many anomaly coded into items, I have my doubts. Especialy as boots got allowed, but not belts? Or the other way: belts are not allowed, then why boots? On the other hand tomes and green scrolls are Clearly Not Magic. They are divine things, thus allowed. And who knows, maybe those healing potions and antidotes are not magical, but natural, ok? Btw, I wonder how many antimagic scrolls I'll need. There are syrens, dryads, basilisks...
Boots are allowed because they can be a form of armor. Belts are not allowed because they're not. As I said the treatment of armor is consistent with the exception of bracers which should really be allowed. Here's an article on medieval armor so you can see how designs cover the whole body.
As for tomes and scrolls I'm not sure why you think they are not magic. All the tomes in the game are specifically described as magical in the item descriptions. They are the result of spells being cast on the books, but even if they were divine in origin a wizard slayer should still not be able to use them. I suspect the reason why they are allowed is that players made a fuss during the early development of BG about the unreasonable disadvantage to WS of not being able to increase their stats.
By the way gaze attacks are not magical - so don't expect a protection from magic scroll to help against basilisks (protection from petrification will do so, however).
I've actually drifted away from using exploits lately. I haven't used them for either of my last two runs, nor am I using any for my current run.
I don't think DUHM for regeneration during resting is all that big of a cheat. You can already use the "rest until fully healed" option to heal to 100% HP during a rest; it just takes longer (which I think increases the risk of a rest ambush). There are a fair number of safe places to rest anyway. The DUHM trick is more of a convenience "cheat" than anything else. It doesn't let you do anything really dramatic or new; it just speeds up an existing process.
For what it's worth, in my experience, Bhaalspawn healing powers already factor into rests. My solo characters, none of which have ever had above 19 CON, usually only have to rest for 16 hours at most when wounded.
Yeah, you automatically cast any remaining heal spells when you rest. Wouldn't think the effect would be that profound though. It's only two castings of the weakest heal spell.
17 health per rest means that a level 8 Warrior with 19 CON, 10 + 7d10 + 40 which averages around 88-89 HP, requires 5 rests to get back 85 HP, and if you were lower than 3 hp you probably died anyways.
I’m definitely team Halfling here: get grandmastery on a ranged weapon early, and the regeneration won’t matter anyways. Low strength only really matters for carrying capacity and sling damage.
High CON right from Chapter 1 will provide full healing when you sleep and every time you travel.
While technically true that he can get the book in chapter 1, that's a bit misleading. In a no-reload solo game, you do not want to just run towards that cave right after Gorion's death.
Boots are allowed because they can be a form of armor. Belts are not allowed because they're not.
Holding up your mail shirt doesn't make it part of your armor? That's just mean. At least now we know why Baldur's Gate characters always hold their weapons in their hands. No suspension allowed. But why does the wizard slayer still have an inventory? Can a backpack be considered armor?
WS are not restricted at all in their use of mundane items - hence no problem with wearing a standard belt or backpack (I do realize of course that you can argue that with the amount of things you can put in a backpack it must in fact be magical ...).
Are they ethically allowed to carry magic items such as rings or scrolls in their backpack? I guess unidentified is okay unless the items gives off an aura of magic, but identified I can imagine that they are not allowed to carry them.
WS don't USE magic items. Carrying it around is fine. After all, how else you'd burn them at the stakes?
And there's a point on non-magical stuff. So the plain helmet is ok. See no point to wear the non magical boots though. And there are no non-magical belts in the game.
Dwarves have the advantage of 19 CON, which is just 1 step away from 20. Given I wish to stick with what the description says (ti. no boots, gloves, helms, shields either), that means a dwarf don't have to visit and pay churches to get a full heal, can instead just sleep to get that with Tome of Constitution at hand.
On the other hand Halflings still get all 3 saves (unlike gnomes), and don't loose 2 CHA which means better rewards (including the +1 dagger at the start). They also loose 1 less maximum stat.
Dwarven WS is slightly better. Throwing Axes > Slings.
Halflings are the best Swashbucklers.
I recommend Wizard Slayer Rebalancing mod - this is how the WS should be made in the original game in my opinion. For example, mod gives a special native ability (not HLA) called Shatter magic. When WS uses this ability his/her native magic resistance is nullified because now MR is used offensively, it is somewhat channeled by WS to perform the strike. After the strike is made, his MR is (temporarily) depleted and he can not perform any special actions for a couple of rounds until he recovers. Awesome. Simply awesome. How MR is made to be dynamic and the class becomes to be much more than the vanilla's common fighter with a cheesy MR as a bonus. Not to mention a neat, conceptually, thematically accurate HLAs that the mod adds. Rebalanced Wizard Slayer (and vanilla Barbarian) is the best fighter class in the game in terms of class balance and overall game design, in my opinion.
ps. I see you already went for the kneecaps, well, just my two cents.
WS are not restricted at all in their use of mundane items - hence no problem with wearing a standard belt or backpack (I do realize of course that you can argue that with the amount of things you can put in a backpack it must in fact be magical ...).
And they could wear standards boots too. I don't see how that's an argument. But then, I have always had trouble comprehending the idea behind wizard slayers. Limiting your use of magic depending on where on your body you are carrying something does not seem reasonable to me. Wearing a magical ring is not okay, but wearing a set of armor that is imbued with the exact same spell is completely fine? If I were to design the wizard slayer, I'd forbid any and all effects of arcane magic, but I'd give them a special ability to strike with any non-magical weapon as if it were magical.
It just seems strange a wizard slayer may carry around lbs and lbs of magic gear and not have the mindset to use them. Better to by default destroy every magic item that comes in their hands/backpack.
A wizard slayer technically has had a ritual done to bond a Nishruu to his body. So by lore, no magic items should work, or spells... but that breaks game balance immensely.
agarik
Member Posts: 18
Comments
You have to compensate halfling's 17 max STR, though: by your caster's Strength spell, by your innate abilities, by items (available further in BG1 and easily accessable in BG2).
If STR is not a worry, then CON shouldn't be either - there're rings of regeneration in BG2, and you can sue innate Draw Upon Holy Might to regenerate before resting/travelling.
Edit: Having said that, I feel compelled to point out that despite thinking that the halfling is better, I still prefer the dwarf. I can't plan a campaign without wanting the best endgame stats imaginable. And so a dwarf with the evil hell rewards, the Axe of Unyielding and Crom Faeyr could go meet Amelissan with the stats 25, 21, 24, which I find pretty rad.
Otherwise you will be stuck with STR 17 forever.
All that gear that sets or improved STR are out of reach.
Even with the Tome you will only get 18 - way less than any exceptional strength score.
The machine and the deck are way too close to the end of the game.
I'd lean closer to Halfling because of their +1 aim on missile weapons. A lot of mage fights start from a distance so getting that first hit in early (remember you can't rely on the boots of haste - edit, my bad, you can use boots) is essential.
Note that WS can also use quite a number of items not mentioned in the very brief description in the game. That includes for instance healing potions and antidotes as well as tomes (you clearly already know of the latter). They can also use green scrolls - which is how you can do the sirines safely.
Whether a dwarf or halfling is preferable depends on your playstyle and which game you're playing. I would say the dwarf is a bit easier in BG1 thanks to the high strength. In BG2 the halfling does have a significant advantage in being able to use Mazzy's sword, while differences in stats make much less of a difference.
And wizards have a lame AC anyway. If you can't touch a wizard will be due to PfMW, not AC/Thac0.
And both get shorty saves anyway - the dwarf benefits even more due to the CON boost: on top of the saves they may achieve regeneration, what opens cleric's spells slot to boost spells instead of healing.
Halflings may get a slightly higher AC (1 point lower than a dwarf if they both start with maximum Dexterity), but armor and shields are not a problem for the WS.
You're not missing "a single STR", but Exceptional Strength. That is very different.
Well, your argument about DUHM is cheating, as you're twisting the game mechanic to do something that the spell was not designed to do. High CON right from Chapter 1 will provide full healing when you sleep and every time you travel.
And if you're designing a character that will be fully developed only in ToB anything is viable.
But seems like you made your mind already, so this discussion is pointless.
I don't like them, so I don't use them and I don't plan anything based on them. But it is a personal taste, nothing against someone using them.
In fact, one of the players that I like to follow on the no-reload thread ( @semiticgod ) uses them a lot.
If you wanna take this path (exploit) I don't think I'm the right person to give advice, despite considering myself kind of an expert when it comes to WS.
Good luck!
As for tomes and scrolls I'm not sure why you think they are not magic. All the tomes in the game are specifically described as magical in the item descriptions. They are the result of spells being cast on the books, but even if they were divine in origin a wizard slayer should still not be able to use them. I suspect the reason why they are allowed is that players made a fuss during the early development of BG about the unreasonable disadvantage to WS of not being able to increase their stats.
By the way gaze attacks are not magical - so don't expect a protection from magic scroll to help against basilisks (protection from petrification will do so, however).
I don't think DUHM for regeneration during resting is all that big of a cheat. You can already use the "rest until fully healed" option to heal to 100% HP during a rest; it just takes longer (which I think increases the risk of a rest ambush). There are a fair number of safe places to rest anyway. The DUHM trick is more of a convenience "cheat" than anything else. It doesn't let you do anything really dramatic or new; it just speeds up an existing process.
For what it's worth, in my experience, Bhaalspawn healing powers already factor into rests. My solo characters, none of which have ever had above 19 CON, usually only have to rest for 16 hours at most when wounded.
I’m definitely team Halfling here: get grandmastery on a ranged weapon early, and the regeneration won’t matter anyways. Low strength only really matters for carrying capacity and sling damage.
The other is a hobbit.
At least now we know why Baldur's Gate characters always hold their weapons in their hands. No suspension allowed.
But why does the wizard slayer still have an inventory? Can a backpack be considered armor?
And there's a point on non-magical stuff. So the plain helmet is ok. See no point to wear the non magical boots though. And there are no non-magical belts in the game.
Halflings are the best Swashbucklers.
I recommend Wizard Slayer Rebalancing mod - this is how the WS should be made in the original game in my opinion. For example, mod gives a special native ability (not HLA) called Shatter magic. When WS uses this ability his/her native magic resistance is nullified because now MR is used offensively, it is somewhat channeled by WS to perform the strike. After the strike is made, his MR is (temporarily) depleted and he can not perform any special actions for a couple of rounds until he recovers. Awesome. Simply awesome. How MR is made to be dynamic and the class becomes to be much more than the vanilla's common fighter with a cheesy MR as a bonus. Not to mention a neat, conceptually, thematically accurate HLAs that the mod adds.
Rebalanced Wizard Slayer (and vanilla Barbarian) is the best fighter class in the game in terms of class balance and overall game design, in my opinion.
ps. I see you already went for the kneecaps, well, just my two cents.
I don't see how that's an argument. But then, I have always had trouble comprehending the idea behind wizard slayers. Limiting your use of magic depending on where on your body you are carrying something does not seem reasonable to me. Wearing a magical ring is not okay, but wearing a set of armor that is imbued with the exact same spell is completely fine?
If I were to design the wizard slayer, I'd forbid any and all effects of arcane magic, but I'd give them a special ability to strike with any non-magical weapon as if it were magical.