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Obvious Plot-Holes in Your Favorite IE Games

HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,580
I was thinking about this the other day, figured I'd throw it up here and see what else folks got. You see any obvious plotholes or items that just don't make sense?



Icewind Dale

- Books you can acquire in game that are dated post-1281 (The year when the game takes place).

- Wild Mages (Enhanced Edition Only) existing in the IWD setting. Wild Mages are a result of certain events occurring in the Time of Troubles... close to 80 years after this story.

- Arundel mentions it being "barely into Leafall, yet the passes are snowed in entirely". Leafall is Marpenoth, and the game takes place (per the EE Journal) in Mirtul... so spring, not autumn (actually going to submit this as a bug. I think in the original game, this was set properly to Autumn... EE may have changed this).

- Arundel *really* stretches when he sends you to look for the Heartstone Gem. Let's connect the facts.
1) Someone stole the Heartstone from Kuldahar a few years back.
2) Some cult was *rumored* to be founded in the Mountains some years after that.
3) Therefore, I have summarized that this cult has the Heartstone Gem in their rumored temple.


Post edited by HaHaCharade on
ThacoBellRaduzielContemplative_HamstersemiticgodGrumMelicampgorgonzolaSkatanDJKajuru

Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,380
    SomeSort said:

    The big one in the BG trilogy is stating at the outset that charname is ~20 years old, but also allowing players to select one of the longer-lived races, who would be virtual babies still at age 20.

    Elves in the Forgotten Realms don't actually work that way. They reach physical adulthood at roughly the same speed, then spend up to hundreds of years transitioning from adolescence to old age. A 20-year-old elf would look about the same age as a 20-year-old human. Not all stages of their development are slowed down; they don't spend years in the womb, either.
    SomeSort said:


    Also: the trilogy never explicitly states when all the Bhaalspawn were conceived. Most assume it was during the Time of Troubles. However, this means that Bhaal sired a dragon who not only grew to full maturity, but also birthed *another* dragon who grew to full maturity, all in the ~20 years since the Time of Troubles. (Again, this is retconnable: nothing says Bhaal *had* to sire his scores of mortal progeny during the Time of Troubles, and indeed there is anecdotal evidence aplenty to suggest he's been going about his task for centuries. But again, plot hole.)

    Yeah, Bhaal was said to have foreseen the Time of Troubles, but it was never specified when (or how). He could have started it hundreds of years before it actually happened, impregnating the longer-lived races before the short-lived races. If he timed it right, they'd all reach adulthood within a few years of each other, which meant all of them would start murdering each other at around the same time.

    The BG1 timeline is indeed pretty messy. Most importantly, we've got those contradicting stories about Charname in BG1 and ToB, which I've never heard fully resolved.

    ThacoBellDrakeICNGrumgorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    Where does the game state that you are 20? Not calling you out, I just don't recall. Aside from that, nothing in game says that every bhaalspawn was sired during the time of troubles, only that Bhaal knew that his death would occur during that time and that he started spawning to circumvent that.

    DrakeICN
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623


    The BG1 timeline is indeed pretty messy. Most importantly, we've got those contradicting stories about Charname in BG1 and ToB, which I've never heard fully resolved.

    Not sure exactly which contradictions you are refering to, but if it is the difference in bio in BG1+ the letters and hell trial with Alianna, I me personally have always assumed Gorion withheld some of the truth and polished other parts. Plenty of circumstancial evidence to suggest that, for instance the chapter zero dialogue "Dont worry, I will reveal everything as soon as there is time" - not to mention Gorion withheld that you are a Bhaalspawn, so what else was he not entirely honest about?

    It is also worth noting Bioware messed up the timeline bad, so Jaheira is probably supposed to be substantially older than Gorions ward. The occams razor approach suggest Khalid, Jaheira and Gorion used to harp and adventure together, but for whatever reason, they then parted ways, but kept in touch with each others. For instance, Jaheira and Khalid seem oblivious to the fact that Gorions Ward is a Bhaalspawn, so either she is really good at keeping secrets or the Bhaalspawn thing is kept on a need to know basis. The Jaheira romance plot lines to me bears the hallmarks that the current harper leadership is like "Wait what you're travelling with a Bhaalspawn that's probably bad lets improvise err... get rid of him/her!" while Elminster is all on the clear whats going on. So, Jaheira and Khalid probably did not assist with the raid on the Bhaal temple, suggesting Jaheira and Gorion parted ways more than 20 years ago. Thus, Jaheira is probably closer to 50-ish (she is a halfelf after all, so being 50 she is still young) than 22. Again, circumstancial evidence suggest this; Jaheira has a bit of a legal guardian attitude to Gorions Ward in BG1, which would be rather odd behavior from someone only 2 years older than you.

    Further, I have surmised that Gorions raid on the Bhaal temple was not authorised by the harpers and SoD* suggests his motivation was love (resolving difference between BG1 bio and hell trials BTW). After the raid Gorion was like "Errm okay... I have this baby from my love interest and an evil deity here, what now?", contacted the harpers, and - obviously, there was some disagreement on this in the harper leadership - it was decided that Gorion would "settle", trying to raise the Bhaalspawn to be a good person, therefore hopefully covertly inserting a harper chess piece in the game about to unfold. This is supported by circumstancial evidence in the Jaheira romance; if Gorions ward have a high reputation, then Jaheira is rewarded for sticking up for Gorions Ward against the local harper leadership. Unwittingly, that local harper was about to foil a plan concocted by someone higher up in the harper hierarchy. However, if Gorions ward have a low reputation, then Jaheira is reprimanded; since the plan of inserting a harper Bhaalspawn failed on account of Gorions ward turning out to be a general douchebag, the higher ups could care less if the local leadership decides to off it - and that makes Jaheiras actions treason!

    Finally, it is likely Imoen was captured in the same raid, and initially cared for in the same manner by another participant, but whom then had a change of heart and posted the child to Gorion, whom "suggested" to Winthrop that she is now his responsibility. Again, circumstancial evidence from chapter zero suggests that Gorion was persuasive that way. It is also curious that one of the dreams have Gorions Ward remembering Gorion arguing with the Candlekeep brass, suggesting Gorions ward was a toddler or even older when he / she arrived in Candlekeep, whereas it is without doubt Gorion aquired his ward while that latter was an infant, therefore suggesting Gorion travelled a bit before deciding to settle in Candlekeep. Of these early years, we know nothing of where Gorion went and why.

    *Still waiting for the android version, has not actually played it myself, I am using tidbits I have picked up from other threads.
    ThacoBell said:

    Where does the game state that you are 20? Not calling you out, I just don't recall. Aside from that, nothing in game says that every bhaalspawn was sired during the time of troubles, only that Bhaal knew that his death would occur during that time and that he started spawning to circumvent that.

    The first sentence in chapter zero intro.

    ThacoBelltbone1
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859

    Elves in the Forgotten Realms don't actually work that way. They reach physical adulthood at roughly the same speed, then spend up to hundreds of years transitioning from adolescence to old age. A 20-year-old elf would look about the same age as a 20-year-old human. Not all stages of their development are slowed down; they don't spend years in the womb, either.

    Forgotten Realms wiki says that gnomes don't reach maturity until 40, though it doesn't specify whether that's physical or social maturity. It also states that dwarves "reached physical maturity somewhat later than humans".

    It's not just the races, though. A lot of the choices available to players make zero sense in the context of the fixed backstory, especially now that EE is back-porting kits. How on earth did a kid growing up in Candlekeep become a barbarian? An assassin? A bounty hunter? A skald? Even without kits, though, it's hard to fathom how a kid trapped inside the walls of a library became a Druid or a Ranger.

    There's really not much solution other than restricting player choice, which might make things narratively more cohesive, but which certainly makes for a worse game.

    Balrog99gorgonzolaleeuxsarevok57
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    @Mirandel @DrakeICN Thanks for pointing it out, I couldn't remember where that was. Can you tell that I often skip text crawls?

    gorgonzolasarevok57
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,134
    Mirandel said:


    Indeed, in many games the only way to keep illusion of immersion is to divorce game-play from the story

    Ahhh yes, that does often help. :) I end up now making a new story to go along with the back story of the game to do just that with every new play through.

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,478
    The average lifespan of a chinchilla is 12 years.

    semiticgodThacoBellRaduzielNimran
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996
    Melicamp said:

    How's this for a plot hole: The entire Amnish army can't clear out the Nashkel mines of some Kobolds and a dimwitted Half-Orc?

    Ah, but Bhaalspwans have a mojo hand, as it were.

    sarevok57
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    edited April 2018
    deltago said:

    The average lifespan of a chinchilla is 12 years.

    Indicating that Bhaal, sick bastard that he was, created a very sizeable breeding colony of bhaalspawn chinchilla so as not to dilute the power over generations ....

    EDIT: Possibly, the entire Bhaalspawn thing was just a postfacto rationalization of the fact that Bhaal liked banging Chinchillas. :#

    GrumThacoBellronaldo
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100

    deltago said:

    The average lifespan of a chinchilla is 12 years.

    Indicating that Bhaal, sick bastard that he was, created a very sizeable breeding colony of bhaalspawn chinchilla so as not to dilute the power over generations ....

    EDIT: Possibly, the entire Bhaalspawn thing was just a postfacto rationalization of the fact that Bhaal liked banging Chinchillas. :#
    Now that’s a plot hole, as everyone knows that banging chinchillas doesn’t need any rationalizo

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    Does anyone else find it odd that the were chinchilla turns into a wolf form, rather than a human one?

  • Sam_Sam_ Member Posts: 159
    edited April 2018
    The guy at the beginning of SoD that makes off with all my gold and then "loses" it. I think the first time I started SoD I had around 500,000 GP, but that's not nearly the highest I have seen (with mods I have had close to double that before). Depending on your source, there are a variety of answers to how much gold weighs in AD&D, but let's go with the common answer of 10 GP weighs 1 pound (lb). That means my party was carrying around 50,000 lb of gold spread among six characters (one of which has 25 strength), and with quite a variety of bags of holding and gem bags to aid in the process.

    Not only would this guy have needed wheelbarrows and shovels and teams of horses and carriages to make off with all my gold, dumping that much in the streets or at a tavern would completely crash the economy of Baldur's Gate! All the beggars in the city couldn't make off with 50,000 lb of gold in a night if they stuffed their pockets and loaded up their arms, not even if they thought to bring buckets. Imagine the rioting this would cause!

    How the F did this guy "lose" so much gold??? MY gold!

    ronaldoThacoBell
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,380
    You can headcanon that most "gold" is actually stored as other units. PnP campaigns often involve carrying extra money in the form of precious gems and the like.

    Timbo0o0o0elminster
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,580

    Money is weightless because otherwise we'd have to bring banks into the equation and that's boring.

    Its not weightless in pen and paper AD&D, but I think video games always get a pass... you carry gems and they take up inventory slots. That's good enough for me.

  • _Connacht__Connacht_ Member Posts: 147
    SomeSort wrote: »
    There's really not much solution other than restricting player choice, which might make things narratively more cohesive, but which certainly makes for a worse game.

    It would require to use 3rd edition D&D rules and derail a bit by limiting available starting classes, then unlocking other choices later.

    Something like Dragon Age: the player can start only as a fighter, a caster or a rogue, but later by solving quests or talking with particular characters learns how to specialize and become templar (i.e. inquisitor), berserker, bard, assassin, shapeshifter, healer (i.e. cleric), arcane warrior (i.e. fighter/mage)...

    leeux
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,423
    edited September 2019
    the time of troubles is a huge mess that effects alot of dnd based game's timelines.

    leeux
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,297
    one of my favourite plot holes is when you save nalia from Isaea and he states; This is not over by any means!

    and then you never see or hear from him ever again lulz

    Balrog99ThacoBellgorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,425
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    one of my favourite plot holes is when you save nalia from Isaea and he states; This is not over by any means!

    and then you never see or hear from him ever again lulz

    Well, his father does come by with an army later...

    gorgonzola
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,423
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    one of my favourite plot holes is when you save nalia from Isaea and he states; This is not over by any means!

    and then you never see or hear from him ever again lulz

    Well, his father does come by with an army later...

    and the romance mod adds a quest that resolves the plot line.

  • DaevelonDaevelon Member Posts: 594
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    one of my favourite plot holes is when you save nalia from Isaea and he states; This is not over by any means!

    and then you never see or hear from him ever again lulz

    In Nalia ending it's showed that Roenalls invaded the de'Arnise keep, and her take it back once again

    gorgonzolaBalrog99
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,050
    edited September 2019
    Melicamp said:

    How's this for a plot hole: The entire Amnish army can't clear out the Nashkel mines of some Kobolds and a dimwitted Half-Orc?

    (Totally responding to you a year and a half later but...)

    If you are talking about the soldiers in town, you have a point. But I think the game establishes well enough that they are cowards.

    But in terms of their larger army, this is presumably because they are busy fighting a rebellion in the south of Amn (the game was originally set in 1370DR so this would have been the Sythillian uprising). They mention it in one of the letters that Davaeorn has as being a reason for Amn not being more involved with the Iron Crisis.

    ZaxaresThacoBelltbone1
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