Obvious Plot-Holes in Your Favorite IE Games
HaHaCharade
Member Posts: 1,644
I was thinking about this the other day, figured I'd throw it up here and see what else folks got. You see any obvious plotholes or items that just don't make sense?
Icewind Dale
- Books you can acquire in game that are dated post-1281 (The year when the game takes place).
- Wild Mages (Enhanced Edition Only) existing in the IWD setting. Wild Mages are a result of certain events occurring in the Time of Troubles... close to 80 years after this story.
- Arundel mentions it being "barely into Leafall, yet the passes are snowed in entirely". Leafall is Marpenoth, and the game takes place (per the EE Journal) in Mirtul... so spring, not autumn (actually going to submit this as a bug. I think in the original game, this was set properly to Autumn... EE may have changed this).
- Arundel *really* stretches when he sends you to look for the Heartstone Gem. Let's connect the facts.
1) Someone stole the Heartstone from Kuldahar a few years back.
2) Some cult was *rumored* to be founded in the Mountains some years after that.
3) Therefore, I have summarized that this cult has the Heartstone Gem in their rumored temple.
Icewind Dale
- Books you can acquire in game that are dated post-1281 (The year when the game takes place).
- Wild Mages (Enhanced Edition Only) existing in the IWD setting. Wild Mages are a result of certain events occurring in the Time of Troubles... close to 80 years after this story.
- Arundel mentions it being "barely into Leafall, yet the passes are snowed in entirely". Leafall is Marpenoth, and the game takes place (per the EE Journal) in Mirtul... so spring, not autumn (actually going to submit this as a bug. I think in the original game, this was set properly to Autumn... EE may have changed this).
- Arundel *really* stretches when he sends you to look for the Heartstone Gem. Let's connect the facts.
1) Someone stole the Heartstone from Kuldahar a few years back.
2) Some cult was *rumored* to be founded in the Mountains some years after that.
3) Therefore, I have summarized that this cult has the Heartstone Gem in their rumored temple.
Post edited by HaHaCharade on
9
Comments
SoD introduces a lingering plot thread with the soultaker dagger. @TrentOster should really get around to fixing that.
A ton of digital ink has been spilled on Jaheira, so I won't go too far down the rabbit hole, but: Charname is 20, Charname has been raised by Gorion since he was a little kid, so Gorion has been stuck in Candlekeep for... call it 12 years, conservatively.
Per her bio, Jahiera was born during the Tethyrian civil war, which started 1347. Per the dates in the journal, Baldur's Gate starts in 1369. Therefore, Jaheira is at most 22 years old.
Gorion says that Jaheira is an "old friend". Therefore, either she must have started adventuring at age 10 (before Gorion was chained to Candlekeep), or else Gorion has been sneaking out of Candlekeep to go on adventures (which seems like a dereliction of duty), or else Gorion lied.
(This is reconcilable. I head-cannon it as assuming that Gorion means that Khalid and Jahiera are members of his old friends, the Harpers. But still a major plot hole.)
Also: the trilogy never explicitly states when all the Bhaalspawn were conceived. Most assume it was during the Time of Troubles. However, this means that Bhaal sired a dragon who not only grew to full maturity, but also birthed *another* dragon who grew to full maturity, all in the ~20 years since the Time of Troubles. (Again, this is retconnable: nothing says Bhaal *had* to sire his scores of mortal progeny during the Time of Troubles, and indeed there is anecdotal evidence aplenty to suggest he's been going about his task for centuries. But again, plot hole.)
Really, the entire Baldur's Gate timeline is pretty squidgy.
The BG1 timeline is indeed pretty messy. Most importantly, we've got those contradicting stories about Charname in BG1 and ToB, which I've never heard fully resolved.
It is also worth noting Bioware messed up the timeline bad, so Jaheira is probably supposed to be substantially older than Gorions ward. The occams razor approach suggest Khalid, Jaheira and Gorion used to harp and adventure together, but for whatever reason, they then parted ways, but kept in touch with each others. For instance, Jaheira and Khalid seem oblivious to the fact that Gorions Ward is a Bhaalspawn, so either she is really good at keeping secrets or the Bhaalspawn thing is kept on a need to know basis. The Jaheira romance plot lines to me bears the hallmarks that the current harper leadership is like "Wait what you're travelling with a Bhaalspawn that's probably bad lets improvise err... get rid of him/her!" while Elminster is all on the clear whats going on. So, Jaheira and Khalid probably did not assist with the raid on the Bhaal temple, suggesting Jaheira and Gorion parted ways more than 20 years ago. Thus, Jaheira is probably closer to 50-ish (she is a halfelf after all, so being 50 she is still young) than 22. Again, circumstancial evidence suggest this; Jaheira has a bit of a legal guardian attitude to Gorions Ward in BG1, which would be rather odd behavior from someone only 2 years older than you.
Further, I have surmised that Gorions raid on the Bhaal temple was not authorised by the harpers and SoD* suggests his motivation was love (resolving difference between BG1 bio and hell trials BTW). After the raid Gorion was like "Errm okay... I have this baby from my love interest and an evil deity here, what now?", contacted the harpers, and - obviously, there was some disagreement on this in the harper leadership - it was decided that Gorion would "settle", trying to raise the Bhaalspawn to be a good person, therefore hopefully covertly inserting a harper chess piece in the game about to unfold. This is supported by circumstancial evidence in the Jaheira romance; if Gorions ward have a high reputation, then Jaheira is rewarded for sticking up for Gorions Ward against the local harper leadership. Unwittingly, that local harper was about to foil a plan concocted by someone higher up in the harper hierarchy. However, if Gorions ward have a low reputation, then Jaheira is reprimanded; since the plan of inserting a harper Bhaalspawn failed on account of Gorions ward turning out to be a general douchebag, the higher ups could care less if the local leadership decides to off it - and that makes Jaheiras actions treason!
Finally, it is likely Imoen was captured in the same raid, and initially cared for in the same manner by another participant, but whom then had a change of heart and posted the child to Gorion, whom "suggested" to Winthrop that she is now his responsibility. Again, circumstancial evidence from chapter zero suggests that Gorion was persuasive that way. It is also curious that one of the dreams have Gorions Ward remembering Gorion arguing with the Candlekeep brass, suggesting Gorions ward was a toddler or even older when he / she arrived in Candlekeep, whereas it is without doubt Gorion aquired his ward while that latter was an infant, therefore suggesting Gorion travelled a bit before deciding to settle in Candlekeep. Of these early years, we know nothing of where Gorion went and why.
*Still waiting for the android version, has not actually played it myself, I am using tidbits I have picked up from other threads. The first sentence in chapter zero intro.
It's not just the races, though. A lot of the choices available to players make zero sense in the context of the fixed backstory, especially now that EE is back-porting kits. How on earth did a kid growing up in Candlekeep become a barbarian? An assassin? A bounty hunter? A skald? Even without kits, though, it's hard to fathom how a kid trapped inside the walls of a library became a Druid or a Ranger.
There's really not much solution other than restricting player choice, which might make things narratively more cohesive, but which certainly makes for a worse game.
As to Gorion:
"Ya know son, ya mama was my friend, no err, she was my lover, no, no, no ( in the later letter in CK it all turns to lovers ). Ok, this is the truth. She was yo mama and a priestess of Bhaal and she died in childbirth (Sorry son, I had to go undercover, so we fooled around a bit- wait, did I tell you we were friends or just lovers, I don't remember ATM. Anyway... no wait, Bhaal moved in on my girl, yo mama). Me and my harper friends maybe roughed her and her friends up a little, and I took you away. I don't know who your daddy was, no wait, yo daddy was Bhaal. I know son, it gets complicated from here on out.
Oh, and we're being attacked by Saervok, who knows all about you, but I'm just gonna tell ya to run and guess on who's after you. It's probably not your bro, by the way. Now git!
I wouldn't trust him to fix me a nightshade free sandwich after a while, if he had lived much longer.
My friend and I were once discussing an NPC from another game that killed his enemy by rigging the fight. Friend was genuinely disgusted and angry. When I pointed out that she always plays as some variation of rogue in any game using traps, backstabbing and sneak attacks, and her characters are closer to chaotic neutral in moral decisions, her answer was "do not confuse game-play mechanics with the story".
Indeed, in many games the only way to keep illusion of immersion is to divorce game-play from the story, otherwise story often makes no sense. I'm afraid BG is one of that game. May be DnD in general is.
EDIT: Possibly, the entire Bhaalspawn thing was just a postfacto rationalization of the fact that Bhaal liked banging Chinchillas.
Not only would this guy have needed wheelbarrows and shovels and teams of horses and carriages to make off with all my gold, dumping that much in the streets or at a tavern would completely crash the economy of Baldur's Gate! All the beggars in the city couldn't make off with 50,000 lb of gold in a night if they stuffed their pockets and loaded up their arms, not even if they thought to bring buckets. Imagine the rioting this would cause!
How the F did this guy "lose" so much gold??? MY gold!
I once did a run as a Jester who spent the entire game invisible (back when singing didn't break invisibility), and head-cannoned it that Imoen was actually the only Bhaalspawn in Candlekeep, but seeing Sarevok kill Gorion triggered a dissociative event that caused her to hallucinate Charname, an invisible Bhaalspawn that only she could see, who wound up doing all of the evil and awful things while "Imoen" remained good and innocent. And as Bhaal's taint grew in Imoen, people would fly into murderous rages just after being around her.
It was one of my favorite runs, to be honest, partly because of all the challenges such emergent storytelling presents. For instance, how do I explain Chapters 2-4 of Shadows of Amn? (Solution: Minsc, Jahiera, and Yoshimo mounted the rescue with minimal sidequesting, Charname didn't do anything except keep himself invisible and out of sight until I got to Spellhold, then business as usual.)
Also, how to explain enemies who could see through invisibility and therefore target Charname? They're just highly attuned to the presence of Bhaal's taint in Imoen.
It would require to use 3rd edition D&D rules and derail a bit by limiting available starting classes, then unlocking other choices later.
Something like Dragon Age: the player can start only as a fighter, a caster or a rogue, but later by solving quests or talking with particular characters learns how to specialize and become templar (i.e. inquisitor), berserker, bard, assassin, shapeshifter, healer (i.e. cleric), arcane warrior (i.e. fighter/mage)...
and then you never see or hear from him ever again lulz
Well, his father does come by with an army later...
and the romance mod adds a quest that resolves the plot line.
In Nalia ending it's showed that Roenalls invaded the de'Arnise keep, and her take it back once again
I have to say, I think this is quite brilliant. I have actually played the game with Imoen as my Charname but it has never occurred to me to play it as her imaginary friend. I love it!
If you are talking about the soldiers in town, you have a point. But I think the game establishes well enough that they are cowards.
But in terms of their larger army, this is presumably because they are busy fighting a rebellion in the south of Amn (the game was originally set in 1370DR so this would have been the Sythillian uprising). They mention it in one of the letters that Davaeorn has as being a reason for Amn not being more involved with the Iron Crisis.