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Cyberpunk 2077

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  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,997
    The less crunch time for developers, the better.

    deltagoZaxares
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,809
    And of course it's delayed now. They're saying September 17th
    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/cyberpunk-2077-release-pushed-back-to-september-17-2020/

    They say it's technically complete, but they need more time for play testing and bug squashing.
    And of course it's delayed now. They're saying September 17th
    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/cyberpunk-2077-release-pushed-back-to-september-17-2020/

    They say it's technically complete, but they need more time for play testing and bug squashing.

    That's a good thing.

    I would rather have a complete game in September 2022 than an over hyped bug-ridden mess in April.

    JuliusBorisov
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,261
    Wow. O.o That is a considerable delay! Still, I'm OK about it. I got plenty of other games to play in the meantime, and I agree that crunch development is TERRIBLE for developers' mental health (and thus the studio's overall longevity and productivity). I was reading this article the other day about the slow collapse behind the scenes at Bioware and why ME: Andromeda and Anthem turned out to be such colossal failures, and it seems that the seeds for Bioware's destruction had already been sown much earlier, back when they were working on ME3 and DA:I, a result of the crunch culture creeping in.

    But anyway, back to CP2077. I wonder if this means that CDPR will publish some more Collector's Editions of the game. I've been wanting to get my hands on one, but unfortunately it seems that no store carries them in the country where I live, and online retailers are long since sold out. :(

    JuliusBorisov
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,619
    edited January 2020
    Zaxares wrote: »
    Wow. O.o That is a considerable delay! Still, I'm OK about it. I got plenty of other games to play in the meantime, and I agree that crunch development is TERRIBLE for developers' mental health (and thus the studio's overall longevity and productivity). I was reading this article the other day about the slow collapse behind the scenes at Bioware and why ME: Andromeda and Anthem turned out to be such colossal failures, and it seems that the seeds for Bioware's destruction had already been sown much earlier, back when they were working on ME3 and DA:I, a result of the crunch culture creeping in.

    But anyway, back to CP2077. I wonder if this means that CDPR will publish some more Collector's Editions of the game. I've been wanting to get my hands on one, but unfortunately it seems that no store carries them in the country where I live, and online retailers are long since sold out. :(

    I dont pretend to know much about this, but it sounds like CDPR had a really big Crunch in order to get Witcher 3 out the door in 2014. Additionally, it sounds like CDPR has admitted that the dev staff will have to work "long hours" to deliver the game by even the delayed date.

    But maybe that's still a reduction in Crunch? Taking it from extreme levels to just above average levels? /shrug

    Sad though. Looking forward to the game (but I am willing to wait).

    JuliusBorisov
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,799
    edited January 2020
    My guess is the entire 5 months will be crunch, and that it's going to be an extension of crunch already happening. What are we talking about when we say "crunch" in terms of a major video game release?? It's 18-20 hour days EVERY day, sometimes for a year at a time. It's literally living at your desk.

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,809
    Well the other thing with Crunch: no game, no money. So the longer it takes a game to get out, the more it actually has to sell for it to be profitable. So crunch time does have it benefits from at least a business standpoint.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,261
    deltago wrote: »
    Well the other thing with Crunch: no game, no money. So the longer it takes a game to get out, the more it actually has to sell for it to be profitable. So crunch time does have it benefits from at least a business standpoint.

    While that's true enough, it also means that something is severely dysfunctional at the development studio in terms of project management, feature creep, or trying to please executives by rushing out the game in less time than it really would take. Imagine if you hired somebody to build a house, they tell you they can get it done in 6 months, when in reality they know it would take 12 months and the only way they can get it to you in 6 months is either by cutting corners, forcing employees to work 18 hour days, or hiring cheap, illegal labour from overseas. Yes, they may get a product to you in the end, but still, that would not be an example of a well-run construction business.

    JuliusBorisov
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,809
    Zaxares wrote: »
    deltago wrote: »
    Well the other thing with Crunch: no game, no money. So the longer it takes a game to get out, the more it actually has to sell for it to be profitable. So crunch time does have it benefits from at least a business standpoint.

    While that's true enough, it also means that something is severely dysfunctional at the development studio in terms of project management, feature creep, or trying to please executives by rushing out the game in less time than it really would take. Imagine if you hired somebody to build a house, they tell you they can get it done in 6 months, when in reality they know it would take 12 months and the only way they can get it to you in 6 months is either by cutting corners, forcing employees to work 18 hour days, or hiring cheap, illegal labour from overseas. Yes, they may get a product to you in the end, but still, that would not be an example of a well-run construction business.

    But unlike building a house, there are a lot of unforeseen issues when it comes to creating a game. From balance issues to graphical glitches while attempting to create a game that will run on a infinite amount of unique machines. A lot of things can create a costly delay.

    Now that doesn’t mean mismanagement of resources don’t happen. Just look at what BioWare has become but IMO there is always a crunch time regardless of a project.

    JuliusBorisov
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,261
    deltago wrote: »
    But unlike building a house, there are a lot of unforeseen issues when it comes to creating a game. From balance issues to graphical glitches while attempting to create a game that will run on a infinite amount of unique machines. A lot of things can create a costly delay.

    Now that doesn’t mean mismanagement of resources don’t happen. Just look at what BioWare has become but IMO there is always a crunch time regardless of a project.

    A bit of crunch time is probably inevitable, I agree, but I'm of the belief that it shouldn't be EXPECTED (as in, it becomes common belief that the last 3-6 months of a project is ALWAYS going to be crunch time, and the management counts on it as part of a product's ship schedule). If the studio is routinely doing crunch time AND is at the stage where crunch time is being used to get the game to a level of quality that players would find acceptable at a minimum, then something is seriously flawed. Either the dev team is overextending itself through feature creep (in which case the project managers need to be firmer in deciding which features will or will not be present in the final game), or the project managers need to get better at gauging how much time they'll need to implement the project scope based on their knowledge of their team's skill and ability. Personally, I'd always err on the side of being overly cautious with extending the project scope, since we do live in an era where DLC is more or less expected by now. Any features that "would be nice, but isn't crucial to the original experience we pitched to the publisher/audience" ought to be shelved and then resold later as DLC once the original product has shipped and the dev teams can then turn their attention to completing stuff that they just never got around to because bigger features were taking priority.

    BallpointMan
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    Delayed again, looks like they're shooting for November, now.
    https://www.pcgamer.com/cyberpunk-2077-has-been-delayed-again/

    WIth all the lockdowns I can see most games in development right now being delayed.

    BallpointMan
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,799
    The game has been delayed again until December 10th, and at this point I have to wonder if some of their employees are just going to drop dead from the crunch they are undertaking.

    JuliusBorisov
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,799
    edited October 2020

    They may make great games , but this is a horrible company. Most of the speculation is that they can't get the game to run on current-gen systems adequately. How is that remotely possible when the game went into development when the PS4/XBox One were barely off the ground?? This is on management, 100%.

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,809
    jjstraka34 wrote: »

    They may make great games , but this is a horrible company. Most of the speculation is that they can't get the game to run on current-gen systems adequately. How is that remotely possible when the game went into development when the PS4/XBox One were barely off the ground?? This is on management, 100%.

    I don’t think it is a horrible company, they are just catching flak for stating that they will not be doing a ‘crunch’ period for the game, and now after 3 delays, they are. If they were actually doing crunch the way other game developers do, I don’t think this game would have been delayed this much.

    It’s their own fault for hyping this game for years, showing unbelievable graphics (that modern consoles and average computers wouldn’t be able to handle) from the beginning. It feels like another Watchdogs.

    But I’d rather them release a stable game in 2022 that looks out dated than a bug ridden mess.

    Gamers can whine all they want that this game is still delayed. They should learn their lesson and not preorder.

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    I think it's just further proof that crunch does not work. People are tired and overworked, so they're not working smarter and more prone to mistakes. A lot of research on the 4 day work week supports this, too. People tend to get the same amount of work done in less time if they're less burnt out.

    At least it's pushing out the need for a new graphics card out further ;)

    jjstraka34BallpointManZaxares
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,799
    edited October 2020
    I think it's just further proof that crunch does not work. People are tired and overworked, so they're not working smarter and more prone to mistakes. A lot of research on the 4 day work week supports this, too. People tend to get the same amount of work done in less time if they're less burnt out.

    At least it's pushing out the need for a new graphics card out further ;)

    This has made the decision to get this on the Series X to run in 4K all the easier, because it's now pretty clear to me their recommended specs stating a 1060 will be fine is a bunch of nonsense, which I always had a tough time believing. AC Valhalla is more than enough to get anyone through the first month of the new console til this arrives.

    BallpointMan
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,148
    edited October 2020
    Just read their notice on twitter (via a re-tweet) and they are saying they've got a 100% working game across all platforms. So why do they say they are delaying release? For a day zero patch to make the game even better. Don't they realise that loads (and loads) of gamers absolutely hate day zero patches! Are they going to become the new Bethesda (buy game on disk, forced to install under steam, finish installing game, mandatory patch larger than the game (you bought on disk to avoid having to download x number of gigs)).

    TR

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,261
    edited October 2020
    As someone who was eagerly looking forward to CP2077, I have to agree that following this latest delay, I'm also concerned that something has gone very wrong behind the scenes, even with the crazy spanner that is COVID-19 thrown into the works. It's not unheard of for games to have to be delayed, but 3 times in a row? Not to mention that all their official communication, including their Twitter channel, insisting that the Nov release date was on track just a few days before.

    I'm personally OK with the game being delayed even till next year (it's not like I have a shortage of games to play), but I do sympathise for all of the people who might have booked time off in advance in preparation, or who just want some good news and a much-needed escape into what looks like an amazingly creative world given the travesty that 2020 has turned out to be. Even so, I'm VERY concerned for all of this has to be doing to the staff pulling those insane crunch hours. I've read accounts of how badly things got for Bioware during the final weeks leading up to Andromeda's launch. To quote, "people were locking themselves in their offices and crying." This is the sort of project management debacle that can cost careers or permanently burn out promising staff. I really hope that once CP2077 is out the door, CD Projekt sits down and takes a good hard look at what went wrong and make sure it never happens again.

    Adam_en_tium
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,799
    Game is pre-loaded on my new RTX 2070 laptop. Reviews I've seen emphasize that side-quests are the bulk of the content, but that these side-quests materially alter the choices and outcomes in the main story.

    bleusteelBallpointMankanisatha
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,261
    It'll be a while before I can actually get to play CP2077. I've been trying to get my hands on a Collector's Edition, but they were entirely sold out where I'm currently living. I finally managed to track down some available copies on an overseas website, but they wouldn't ship it overseas. However, my brother happens to live in a country they DO ship to, and so he agreed to receive it for me. Due to COVID restrictions however, it's not known when he'll actually be able to send it to me. XD

    May be for the best though. Initial reviews have been... mixed. Mostly about bugs (nothing too game-breaking though, I hear) and the world feeling a bit empty, but these are issues that can be addressed with patches as time goes on. Not to mention a delay on my part also gives modders time to work their magic.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,299
    edited December 2020
    As usual speaking for myself and not Beamdog - as I no longer do regularly work for them

    State of the bugs

    I'd probably describe the game as being in a beta state. I'm using a GTX 970 on roughly the medium default and have only had one crash (which was probably related to me overclocking my card). But there are definitely a lot of random graphical bugs in the game. Especially involving characters doing weird things or characters mouths not opening when they are speaking.

    I can't really speak more to performance since I'm using a 6 year old graphics card :p

    There have been other bugs as well I've seen. Like if two people are trying to call you the game will put them both on at the same time.

    But anyways there is definitely refinement needed and it is very unpolished.


    Story

    I tried playing the corporate background story and quit after 15 minutes. It was very boring and filled with a lot of cutscenes (as well as those scenes where you are in a car and the radio is playing or someone is talking to you ... I'm not sure what to call them other than hidden load screens).

    The streetwise background seems alright. I don't care about any of these characters though.

    On top of that the dialog choices suck. At one point (minor spoiler for early on in the streetwise story)
    someone I didn't know held a gun to my characters face, and then minutes later my only dialog options were to like blame myself for the situation we were in, or to say "no worries" about the fact he held a gun to my face.

    The situation was that I broke into this car I was stealing. Then another thief, who I didn't know, stuck a gun to my head and told me to get out of the car. Shortly after that the cops came, we got arrested, but they just let us go and threw us in like an alley. That's when I had the dialog option.

    Ohh and you end up working together after that and you have no choice because its part of the main questline. Like what?

    Basically though the story is very linear and railroady. You'll do what the story wants you to do.


    Side Quests

    I've yet to encounter an interesting side quest in the game. Maybe there is one but most of them just seem really lacking in depth. Even by sidequest standards.

    NPCs

    15 hours in and the only NPC's name I remember is Jackie. They are really forgettable and never really seem to stick around long.


    The start of the game (first 5-10 hrs) is also really bad for this. So many of the NPCs you encounter just say one line and are just kind of there. They have no personality and you can't interact with them. I know this is regular for an open world game but what isn't regular is how few of them that you can interact with other than the ones directly connected to the main quest.


    Combat


    Starting weapons do very little damage. Especially the pistols. Even a head shot on someone from point blank will only take off maybe 20% of their health. I'm playing on normal difficulty.


    Combat UI

    The combat is really clunky. I'm playing a stealthy tech character so I need to hold down CTRL and also hold down tab and scroll through options if I want to do any tech things. That's on top of whatever things you normally need to do in any combat.

    I guess it just feels like they've created a complicated UI for the sake of creating a complicated UI.


    Gameplay


    It kind of feels like similar GTA games. Like the Saints Row series. Except the second you shoot a cop literally 10 cops will show up within 5 seconds. That's not even me being hyperbolic. It really is that over the top.


    Leveling

    There are way too many options during level up and I found it to be really confusing. Trying to piece together what is actually helpful for what I want. There are three different classes but I'm still not sure how much each really matter.

    Also the tier structure is really restrictive. I'm 15 hrs into the game and I haven't unlocked more than the first tier of abilities.


    Voice Acting/Music

    I wouldn't say any of the voice acting is jumping out at me. For good and for bad. I'd describe it as adequate. The music seemed good.


    Overall Score

    Gamespot was right when they gave it a 7/10.

    Post edited by elminster on
    megamike15
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,633
    it's pretty clear why cdpr would not let reviewers review the console versions. they run really badly epically on last gen systems.

    elminster
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,148
    I see there is a patch out now for PS and PC. XB to follow shortly.

    TR

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,809
    megamike15 wrote: »
    it's pretty clear why cdpr would not let reviewers review the console versions. they run really badly epically on last gen systems.

    Ya, I got it on PS4 and it's really choppy. Basically I need to play stealthy or the frame rate drops to almost unmanageable levels. That said, the only reason why I purchased it was due to CDPR offering free next gen upgrades and I wanted to review the story telling in the game. That front, it's slow paced which is surprising for the type of game it is, however, I am not that far into it so we'll see.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,799
    deltago wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    it's pretty clear why cdpr would not let reviewers review the console versions. they run really badly epically on last gen systems.

    Ya, I got it on PS4 and it's really choppy. Basically I need to play stealthy or the frame rate drops to almost unmanageable levels. That said, the only reason why I purchased it was due to CDPR offering free next gen upgrades and I wanted to review the story telling in the game. That front, it's slow paced which is surprising for the type of game it is, however, I am not that far into it so we'll see.

    The PS4 and XBox One cannot handle this game, and that's on CDPR. Their minimum and recommended specs for this game are horseshit. A 1060 can't reliably play this, and the PS4 is less powerful than that by a pretty decent margin. I wouldn't attempt this thing on anything less than a 1080 on PC, and the bare minimum needed to run this on console is a PS4 Pro or XBox One X. And, frankly, it is really only gonna shine with a PS5 or Series X. They kinda had to release this on the last gen systems because their release date falls at a time when only the lucky few have a next-gen system. But it shouldn't have been. It should have been held to March as a next-gen exclusive. Because the hardware can't keep up.

    elminstermegamike15Cahir
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    I'm having a ton of fun with it, but it's definitely glitchy. It's mostly just been minor visual things, like debris or random crap getting stuck in the air or someone's cigarette disappearing while I'm talking to them, which it makes it weird when they're still clearly holding it and blowing smoke. Or my character's model flickering in a T stance above my vehicle for a few seconds. It's not really anything that fallout 4 didn't do at release or still does occasionally. So far the only bad thing that glitched was I going around one curve on my motorcycle and it threw me off the bike and soaring all the way across the map. Reloaded and took the curve more carefully and it didn't happen. Game's been pretty smooth for me, but a lot of stuff like V's hair seems kind of blurry, and I'm running it at 4k. I wonder if it's DLSS, but I don't think it'd be smooth at 4k if I turned it off, even with a 3080RTX.

    I'm finally getting the hang of the stealth in the game. Stealth's definitely harder than most other stealth games like Deus Ex, AC or the Dishonored games.

    Which path did you guys do? I went with street kid, myself. Seemed like the best way to jump into things and I like the street warrior vibe.

    I've mainly been settling into blades and sniper rifles now that I've figured out what I like. It is fun to just ginsu mofos with a katana.

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,786
    edited December 2020
    deltago wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    it's pretty clear why cdpr would not let reviewers review the console versions. they run really badly epically on last gen systems.

    Ya, I got it on PS4 and it's really choppy. Basically I need to play stealthy or the frame rate drops to almost unmanageable levels. That said, the only reason why I purchased it was due to CDPR offering free next gen upgrades and I wanted to review the story telling in the game. That front, it's slow paced which is surprising for the type of game it is, however, I am not that far into it so we'll see.

    @deltago I (unfortunately) also got it on PS4 Pro and I'm utteterly angry at myself that I did not choose a PC version. Did you run the game with 1.04 patch already? Is there any difference? Is there a point to run it just now or wait a month or two until CDPR get it fixed? I mean, c'mon, games like Red Dead Redemption 2 or The Ghost of Tsushima shows that the game can look astounding on PS4 Pro.

    These are the patch notes: https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/37043/hotfix-1-04

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    Just happened to notice that RPS had some tips on getting the game running better for PC.
    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2020/12/11/cyberpunk-2077-the-best-settings-to-improve-your-pcs-performance/
    The system they were using only had an i5-10600K and geforce 1060, so with some tweaking it should be playable on a PC.

    I do feel like the game's not as pretty as it's performance would dictate. Seems like they've got a ways to go with optimizations for both consoles and PC. This is literally the first game I've cared about that had ray tracing and I'm not particularly impressed in that regard, but then again I've said ray tracing is not that pretty for the performance impact it causes. Man, I feel bad for anybody who bought first gen ray tracing hardware.

    Still, the game's fun as hell, I'll give them that much.

    I'm probably the only person that hates Keanu Reeves (See Dracula or Dangerous Liasons), so having him trapped in my head is like my own personal hell and a major motivator to get him out. At least the CGI version of him can actually emote. ;)

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,809
    Cahir wrote: »
    deltago wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    it's pretty clear why cdpr would not let reviewers review the console versions. they run really badly epically on last gen systems.

    Ya, I got it on PS4 and it's really choppy. Basically I need to play stealthy or the frame rate drops to almost unmanageable levels. That said, the only reason why I purchased it was due to CDPR offering free next gen upgrades and I wanted to review the story telling in the game. That front, it's slow paced which is surprising for the type of game it is, however, I am not that far into it so we'll see.

    deltago I (unfortunately) also got it on PS4 Pro and I'm utteterly angry at myself that I did not choose a PC version. Did you run the game with 1.04 patch already? Is there any difference? Is there a point to run it just now or wait a month or two until CDPR get it fixed? I mean, c'mon, games like Red Dead Redemption 2 or The Ghost of Tsushima shows that the game can look astounding on PS4 Pro.

    These are the patch notes: https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/37043/hotfix-1-04

    I was playing it on both the 1.02 and 1.04 patch. I didn’t find much a difference. My console also isn’t a Pro, just your standard PS4 rig. Yong Yeah has a good video on the issues with the PS4 version, comparing frame rates at certain parts of the game. I will also say, I am use to laggy games and it’s just going to actually take me a little time to get the timing down and actually be able to play it.

    When Dragon Age: Inquisition came out, I got it for the 360 and it was terrible. Graphics weren’t loading in properly and there was some stuttering during combat. I was still able to finish the game as it slowly stopped bothering me after a while as I got use to it.

    I knew the older console versions were going to be less than subpar, but a small part of me wanted to experience it instead of just going ‘I told you so.’ The graphic limitations aren’t going to bother me too much as I play because I am use to playing older games, and when I finally do get a PS5, I will be able to enjoy it how the game was suppose to be played.

    elminster
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