What would be the best way of making a pure Kensai?

2088432

I know I've done it in the past but that was so many ages ago... I hope you guys can help, anyways thanks for your time.

Permidion_Stark

If you want to be a melee fighter then I think the way to go is putting two points in single-weapon style, which will give you a -2 to your armour class and crits on a 19 or 20, then grab yourself a ring of protection +1 and the Shield Amulet from the Nashkel Carnival and assuming you have got 18 DEX your AC will be 1 without the amulet and -5 with it. This is plenty good enough to go toe-to-toe with most enemies in BG1.

Another alternative, which is a lot of fun, is to specialise in daggers and then use throwing daggers in combat. You can kill lots of enemies without them getting anywhere near you. I would still opt of single-weapon style because there will be times when you need to switch to your melee weapon (and it helps your armour class if ever you find yourself surrounded by bandits in an ambush).

Edit: I might have got my maths wrong. I'm not sure if you are -3 or -5 when Shielded. Someone more knowledgeable should be along soon.

StummvonBordwehr

The dagger throwing kensai is fun. If you play your cards right you will have a ac of 1

Potions can help you alot. Potion of invul. is especially good.

But potion of stoneform and defense are also good.

With potion of power, cloud giant str amd DUHM you will good to go.

The picture is pre Sarevok

But you will have to babysit the kensai a lot. They say its a glass cannon - and I tend to agree on that.

Borco

I'd recommend @Gate70's successful no-reload run back at Bioware forums for some inspiration. BG1 starts here and BG2 starts here.

OlvynChuru

Kensai in Baldur's Gate 1 are boring. They're mostly inferior to fighters. Their bonuses to hit and damage are offset by the fact that they can't wear Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise.

But Kensai are a lot of fun in Baldur's Gate 2. Their bonuses to hit and damage just keep increasing. If you play with a smaller party and your kensai reaches level 40, he or she will get +13 to hit and damage. I once did a BG2 playthrough with a kensai, though I used throwing axes rather than throwing daggers. Throwing daggers would be better.

Grond0

Permidion_Stark said:

Edit: I might have got my maths wrong. I'm not sure if you are -3 or -5 when Shielded. Someone more knowledgeable should be along soon.

-5 is indeed right. Shield sets base AC to 4, so improves by 6 from the standard unarmored 10. Shield adds a further -2 modifier for missile weapons, so enemies shooting at you will have an even harder time hitting.

sarevok57

if you are going the throwing route, throwing axes are a great choice

in patch 2.3 or higher i believe, taerom sells magical throwing axes at his smithy, and if you want to give him more throwing axes, buy some from him, then sell them back in packs to increase his supply ( so in theory infinite throwing axes +1 )

then late in chapter 6, you can find a returning +2 throwing axe ( which requires no extra ammo ) so that is solid

then in SoA basically as soon as you start chapter 2 you can go to the sewers in the temple district and get a throwing axe +2

or you can by a +3 throwing axe ( or at least i believe there is a +3 axe ) at bernard ( i believe his name is ) in the copper cohornet after you free hendak

also if you take bodhi's side in chapter 3, you will find a +3 throwing axe

and finally, in ToB you can buy a +4 throwing axe at the smugglers cave

Jaheiras_Witness

Worrying about AC as a Kensai and taking single weapon style to compensate is like choosing a mage and then being concerned your THAC0 isn’t too good.

It is not the purpose of the class. A kensai’s USP is unrivalled damage dealing capability, just as a mage’s is casting spells. A kensai is a glass cannon compared to most tanks, just embrace it and either keep him ranged (throwing daggers) or as a late entrant to melee. I would not waste slots on single weapon style when you can dualwield, use a two handed weapon or throwing weapons. Those options allow you to maximise your character’s strengths rather than make a small difference to his weakness.

StummvonBordwehr

Jaheiras_Witness said:

Worrying about AC as a Kensai and taking single weapon style to compensate is like choosing a mage and then being concerned your THAC0 isn’t too good.

I can agree on the AC boost shouldnt be the reason for picking simple weapon style.

In a recent run I did pick simple weapon style at creation, but that was for the improved crit range not the ac boost

If you want to throw knives, improve the odds any given way...

But in all I found the kensai and the weapon styles poorly implemented in the IE: the kensai is fun, but a beserker really is more powefull. Imo the Scales of Balance mitigates that a great deal, and the mod allows the kensai to shine a bit more - great mod imho.

ThacoBell

@StummvonBordwehr I mean, the berserker is basically more paowerful than almost anything. Its such a cheesy piece of crap that comparing any other figther to it is pretty meaningless.

StummvonBordwehr

@ThacoBell
Off course the beserker is awesome. I wont disagree on that. Its really great in a dual combo and solo. Much more so than the kensai.

But my objection is that the “sword saint” doesnt really shine. Sure it has a nice damage boost, but thats all. All the things that could make the kensai shine is bestowed on almost everyone. My issues are:

1) apr and GM

Yes it can GM in a weapon - neat but almost everybody can do that and your mother. Beserker 7 -> cleric 8 can GM (even a B7/thief or mage 8 can do that with abuse). A figther 3 -> mage 12 can even do that).

If GM belonged to the kensai and archers they could shine more).

An extra 1/2 apr at level 1, and exclusiveness on GM in martial weapons closes the gap on the beserker somewhat. They could really fit into different roles

2) armor, ac and movement speed

No armor, helmets and bracers is really restrictive. And what do they get? An ac boost of 2, and no progression on that. It should scale somewhat. A weapon can be used for dodging as well.

And bracers should be allowed. Just saying.

No movement speed bonus even though you run around naked? You could cut the carrying capacity in half, and let the naked guy/girl run free and faster.

To me the above could help the kensai a bit. Some mods let you so just that - and the mods prop. doesnt repair the broken parts of the engine... but perhaps the IE is broken beyond repair.

Permidion_Stark

I think the Kensai has been designed badly and doesn't really do what it should. The Kensai should be the character who when surrounded by loads of heavily-armoured samurai can dodge all their blows by moving fast. Kensais should be as much about clever defence as effective attack. In Baldur's Gate kensais have to hide behind the armoured guys in the party because they are afraid of getting hit.

I agree with @StummvonBordwehr that the AC boost should scale, movement speed should be increased and bracers should be allowed. That might make a kensais into viable melee fighters which is what they really should be.

ThacoBell

The Kensai is the best pick for a secondary melee line imo. Very large damage boosts and guaranteed max attack rolls are very powerful. All you need to do is have good positioning and their squishiness isn't an issue. Kensai are by far my favorite fighter kit.

Chronicler

Permidion_Stark said:

I think the Kensai has been designed badly and doesn't really do what it should. The Kensai should be the character who when surrounded by loads of heavily-armoured samurai can dodge all their blows by moving fast. Kensais should be as much about clever defence as effective attack. In Baldur's Gate kensais have to hide behind the armoured guys in the party because they are afraid of getting hit.

I agree with @StummvonBordwehr that the AC boost should scale, movement speed should be increased and bracers should be allowed. That might make a kensais into viable melee fighters which is what they really should be.

That seems like it would defeat the entire point of the Kensai.

If it has superior offense and superior defense to a standard fighter, then it's just a better fighter. What's the drawback in that scenario?

Permidion_Stark

Chronicler said:

That seems like it would defeat the entire point of the Kensai.

If it has superior offense and superior defense to a standard fighter, then it's just a better fighter. What's the drawback in that scenario?

I thought the point of a kensai was that it was supposed to be a way of playing a character like the hero in samurai movies: someone who relies on speed and agility rather than armour. At present the whole focus of the build is on dealing damage, which misses out half of what the character is about. These are characters who are focused on a single weapon and who shun all others - but they use that weapon for defence as well as attack. It is a shield as well as an offensive weapon.

It's fun to use them as knife or axe throwers and they are effective as second line fighters but it is hardly heroic and it seems to me it misses the point of the character class entirely.

Chronicler

Permidion_Stark said:

Chronicler said:

That seems like it would defeat the entire point of the Kensai.

If it has superior offense and superior defense to a standard fighter, then it's just a better fighter. What's the drawback in that scenario?

I thought the point of a kensai was that it was supposed to be a way of playing a character like the hero in samurai movies: someone who relies on speed and agility rather than armour. At present the whole focus of the build is on dealing damage, which misses out half of what the character is about. These are characters who are focused on a single weapon and who shun all others - but they use that weapon for defence as well as attack. It is a shield as well as an offensive weapon.

It's fun to use them as knife or axe throwers and they are effective as second line fighters but it is hardly heroic and it seems to me it misses the point of the character class entirely.

Yes, there are some movies where one kind of warrior is just superior in all respects to every other, but when translating these archetypes into gameplay there's gotta be a bit of give and take there.

As far as heroism goes, Kensai can encompass the entire alignment spectrum, so long as it's not chaotic, so that doesn't really seem relevant.

ThacoBell

Not to mention, there are no dodge mechanics in BG. FWIW, Kensai are only really squishy in BG1. I was able to pretty easily run a Kensai as a front liner through SoA and ToB.

StummvonBordwehr

Well I guess we will have to disagree. But I think we strayed to much from the topic, so I guess we should leave it be.

Mods can set it straight for me anyway so I cant complain - and others already have the kensai the way they want it.

former_customer

ThacoBell said:

Not to mention, there are no dodge mechanics in BG. FWIW, Kensai are only really squishy in BG1. I was able to pretty easily run a Kensai as a front liner through SoA and ToB.

How are you front-lining a kensai in SoA? Does he kill so fast that he doesn't deal with many incoming attacks?

Chronicler

former_customer said:

ThacoBell said:

Not to mention, there are no dodge mechanics in BG. FWIW, Kensai are only really squishy in BG1. I was able to pretty easily run a Kensai as a front liner through SoA and ToB.

How are you front-lining a kensai in SoA? Does he kill so fast that he doesn't deal with many incoming attacks?

Kensai get a boost to their speed factor that scales with their level, so they pretty much always attack first.

That might be part of it. Pretty much anything you can kill in 1 hit dies before it can touch you.

ThacoBell

@former_customer Pretty much. The only time I get in trouble is with Dragons and disablers. -5 AC in SoA is easy to do and -9 or -10 in ToB. I can also buff him with my bard or mage as well.

Neverused

Ilbratha helps too, mirror images pretty much can make hits irrelevant. Critical hits are still a problem if they get through, though, since you’re losing something like 70+ hp per crit lategame at some point.

Chronicler

Neverused said:

Ilbratha helps too, mirror images pretty much can make hits irrelevant. Critical hits are still a problem if they get through, though, since you’re losing something like 70+ hp per crit lategame at some point.

Can Kensai not wear helmets?

Neverused

Nope, one of the things that actually cripples kensai lategame.

Balrog99

Neverused said:

Nope, one of the things that actually cripples kensai lategame.

Mask of King Strohm can remedy that situation.

Skatan

StummvonBordwehr said:

Jaheiras_Witness said:

Worrying about AC as a Kensai and taking single weapon style to compensate is like choosing a mage and then being concerned your THAC0 isn’t too good.

I can agree on the AC boost shouldnt be the reason for picking simple weapon style.

In a recent run I did pick simple weapon style at creation, but that was for the improved crit range not the ac boost

If you want to throw knives, improve the odds any given way...

But in all I found the kensai and the weapon styles poorly implemented in the IE: the kensai is fun, but a beserker really is more powefull. Imo the Scales of Balance mitigates that a great deal, and the mod allows the kensai to shine a bit more - great mod imho.

The bonus from single weapon style doesn't add crit chance for throwing daggers, imho. It does work when/if you switch to melee if enemies close in on you though. I prefer dual weild though since, as others have said, I prefer kensai's defense to be to kill faster than being killed, hence maxing out their offense. Dualwielding Drizzt's scimitars is obviously the best choice for BG1 and SoD. In SoD you switch between the scimitar that add speed and remove the boots of speed for boots of +5 vs ranged when you face many ranged attackers, to still maintain the ability to move faster than enemies. It's situational though.

Add a druid to the team who can cast barkskin on you. Faldorn is the best in BG1 for being SC, but Jaheira will do if you don't like Faldorn. The added AC from barkskin is actually pretty decent together with the bump you get from Kensai kit. And as others have said, potions is your best friend. The cursed claw that adds AC can be used and since dwarves can be kensais you can reach very good saves (and CON) and mitigate the negative save from the claw. Switch between the shield amulet and the amulet of mind protection (forgot the name, the green one from Ulgoth's) and you get almost the same protection as a berserker.

In BG2 there's so many items that can help you, ie Ilbratha as mentioned for mirror images.

Regarding Kensai not getting an increase in AC from levels, it's kinda interesting from a character concept point of view that the better fighter (the kensai) doesn't get it, but the rogue swashbuckler does. I udnerstand why that is the way it is from a balance point of view, but from an RP point of view it's not so easily defended. it would make more sense that a sword saint learns how to not only kill fast, but also how to not die, since that's really their prime ability, heh..

ThacoBell

The AC bonus for single weapon is GREAT in early BG1. 2 AC is quite a lot early game. I always switch to two weapon by SoA though.