Skip to content

The Politics Thread

1296297299301302694

Comments

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,388
    If Democrats want the rich to pay more in taxes then why do they keep raising taxes on gasoline, a regressive tax which will punish poor people more than it will rich people?

    Taxes on items are one way to try and reduce the consumption of particular items (in this instance in order to mitigate climate change). That approach is being used more rather than just banning things - see the changes around the world on legalizing drugs for instance.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2019
    If Democrats want the rich to pay more in taxes then why do they keep raising taxes on gasoline, a regressive tax which will punish poor people more than it will rich people?

    Not all Democrats want the rich to pay more taxes. Your Nancy Pelosis, Chuck Schumers, and Joe Manchins don't. AOC and Bernie do but currently there's more 'moderate' Democrats and Blue Dog Democrats that don't particularly want to raise taxes on the top.


    Nearly 150 scholars, many who teach about the Holocaust, urged the US Holocaust Memorial Museum to retract its recent statement rejecting comparisons of the situation at the US southern border to concentration camps.

    "The very core of Holocaust education is to alert the public to dangerous developments that facilitate human rights violations and pain and suffering; pointing to similarities across time and space is essential for this task," the open letter reads, according to The New York Review of Books.

    "The Museum's decision to completely reject drawing any possible analogies to the Holocaust, or to the events leading up to it, is fundamentally ahistorical," the letter reads.

    Unfortunately, the chairman of the Holocaust museum board of directors, Howard Lorber (https://therealdeal.com/2018/08/15/howard-lorber-to-raise-money-for-trump-at-hamptons-mansion/), is a big Trump supporter and fundraiser, and several other directors are Trump appointees. Trump has quislings in place to use the prestige of the museum's name to defending him.

    Also, Elliot Abrams is on their "Commitee on Conscience". For years, the United States funded, trained and provided arms to Central American dictatorships and military groups that tortured and murdered thousands of innocent people. Elliott Abrams was a key architect of the United States' involvement. Today he is Trump's special envoy to Venezuela.

    https://act.credoaction.com/sign/elliott-abrams
    Post edited by smeagolheart on
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2019
    The Census is not going to be delayed and it won't have the citizenship question on it--nothing to see there.

    As Trump ponders census delay, missed deadlines could gum up logistics
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/as-trump-ponders-census-delay-missed-deadlines-could-gum-up-logistics-2019-07-01

    The Trump administration has missed its own July 1 deadline to print the paper forms needed for next year’s Census, NPR reports. A website tracking the progress of 2020 Census materials shows they’re yet to be officially approved by the White House's Office of Management and Budget, which is headed by Trump’s acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney.

    Justice Department attorneys said Monday that the administration hasn’t yet decided whether it’ll make another legal bid to force the addition of a controversial citizenship question to the Census form, after the Supreme Court last week shot down the administration’s dubious rationale for it.

    The count is still scheduled to begin in January in Alaska before rolling out to the rest of the country by April, but the printing delay for some 350 million forms could affect that schedule.

    On Monday, President Trump said he was looking “very strongly” at delaying the Census, adding that he wants the courts to “make a final and decisive decision” on whether the citizenship question can be added."

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited July 2019
    The Census is not going to be delayed and it won't have the citizenship question on it--nothing to see there.

    As Trump ponders census delay, missed deadlines could gum up logistics

    *shrug* I still think it will be okay but some people are still going to complain.

    *************

    It has already been established that burning an American flag is Free Speech and thus protected. Is it still Free Speech if I burn a rainbow flag? If not, why not?
    Post edited by Mathsorcerer on
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    semiticgod wrote: »
    I know lots of people who are far better educated than the average American and yet make well below the median wage despite working full time.

    Personal disclosure time: unfortunately, I am one of those people at this time. I got downsized in January, being sent from "making above the national average including bonuses" to "making below the national average". It sucks and I sometimes have a difficult time being thankful for what I do have, but in the meantime I have feelers out to get back over the median again. Even if there were a union I could join here I wouldn't do it because, to me, unions cause a lot more problems than they solve.

    *************

    If Democrats want the rich to pay more in taxes then why do they keep raising taxes on gasoline, a regressive tax which will punish poor people more than it will rich people?

    California has a new brief background check to purchase ammunition. According to this law, I could not simply give you some rounds---we would have to go to a dealer, the dealer takes possession of the rounds, then you go through the background check, and if you pass then you can receive the ammo from the dealer at no cost. How, exactly, will they police this? Are they going to be looking into my garage when I pass you a box of rounds to take with you on your deer hunting trip this fall? What if I drive over to Nevada, buy ammo there, then bring them back? Weak law is weak.

    So if you give ammo to a buddy during a hunting trip, I doubt the police will be barging through your door.

    However, if you lend ammo to a friend who then goes and uses that ammo to kill his wife and kids (or another person), then expect a knock at the door.

    ~~~

    Burning a rainbow flag is free speech. Saying “this is what I want to do to everyone who is gay,” prior to burning it, is not. One’s a statement, another is a threat.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I think the more germaine question is who on an equal level to the President of the United States is suggesting it should be illegal as Trump has OPENLY adovcated for in regards to the American flag. It would also depend on if they bought their own rainbow flag to burn or just torched someone else's. Mind you, once again, free speech is not freedom from social consequences. If you get filmed burning a rainbow flag, don't start bitching about your "rights" being violated when you get fired from your job because they aren't interested in alienating 10% of the population.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    "This will never happen, stop worrying."

    "So this just happened, whatever, I don't care anymore."

    Oh look, the "this can't happen." crowd has been wrong for the 2,000th time in a row. When are gonna stop moving the goal posts and pretending like they have any clue how bad things have already gotten, let alone will continue to get?

    We are literally at the point of our country putting children in concentration camps, starving them, letting die of sickness, and raping them. But oh no, calling them concentration camps is "unacceptable." But the icarcertaion of toddlers and rape of children is just peachy keen. Never mind that actual experts, historians, and people who have actually lived through these kinds of camps are outright saying that the tag is perfectly apprpriate. What's the next step? Firing squads for our children? Its a pretty small step from where we already are.
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 523
    Burning a rainbow flag falls in the hate speech category because it’s a statement against a protected group of people.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2019
    Multiple members of Congress have confirmed what AOC said she saw yesterday. Women being told to drink out of toilets instead of being given fresh water. Agents playing psychological mind games with them by waking them at all hours of the night. The guards literally laughing about the situation. They did this IN FRONT of a Congressional delegation. Because they know the man at the top has their back. They are PROUD of this. I warned for well over a year that Trump's dehumanization rhetoric would lead to this. All dismissed as "hysteria".

    We now have the posts of the secret Facebook group that literally HALF of Border agents belong to. Why would it surprise anyone they act out in the same way their words indicate?? The next thing we hear about will almost CERTAINLY be that these guards are demanding women perform sexual acts on them if they ever want to see their children again.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited July 2019
    bleusteel wrote: »
    Burning a rainbow flag falls in the hate speech category because it’s a statement against a protected group of people.

    So "American citizens" are not protected, which is why burning an American flag is acceptable? The rainbow flag does not equate to "LBGT people"--the symbol is not the same as the thing it represents, according to Joseph Campbell. If we cannot burn *all* flags then we should not be allowed to burn *any* flags.

    The "drinking from toilets" is a misnomer. For those of you who are unaware, the "toilets" in many detention facilities and prisons are a combined unit with a fountain up top and the toilet to the side--there is a poster in my other forum who works as a prison guard and we have mentioned this story. Although you may refer to this object as "the toilet" the people in these facilities are *not* getting down on hands and knees to lap water from the toilet basin as if they were a dog. Stop reacting to misleading news stories emotionally.

    By the way, the conditions in most of these facilities are at this time the same conditions which existed back during the Obama Administration and the Bush Administration before that; it is not a Trump thing. The facilities are only overcrowded now because of Obama's "come on in, the water's fine" policy, which led to migration surges.

    Of course, several months ago Democrats were saying "what crisis?" because they were convinced that the Mueller Report would nail Trump to the wall.

    edit/add: what the heck is wrong with police? Some guy in Illinois was taking a walk just to get some exercise while recovering from pneumonia--with his IV hooked up to him--when police showed up and accused him of stealing hospital equipment. I can't make up things that bizarre.
    deltago wrote: »
    However, if you lend ammo to a friend who then goes and uses that ammo to kill his wife and kids (or another person), then expect a knock at the door.

    Can they *prove* that I was the one who loaned him the ammo? No? Then I had nothing to do with it.
    Post edited by Mathsorcerer on
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited July 2019

    By the way, the conditions in most of these facilities are at this time the same conditions which existed back during the Obama Administration and the Bush Administration before that; it is not a Trump thing. The facilities are only overcrowded now because of Obama's "come on in, the water's fine" policy, which led to migration surges.

    Untrue. There was a legal limit put in place that prevented immigrants from being kept in these facilities for more than 72 hours. Trump has flouted that requirement and immigrants are left in these facilities for weeks on end, contributing to conditions far worse than under previous administrations. Obama also did not necessarily force asylum seekers into these facilities while they await judgement on their asylum pleas. Lastly - of course, he did not separate children from their families with a zero tolerance policy that Trump put in place.


    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/immigration/hundreds-of-minors-held-at-us-border-facilities-are-there-beyond-legal-time-limits/2019/05/30/381cf6da-8235-11e9-bce7-40b4105f7ca0_story.html?outputType=amp

    I saw another NPR article that said the worst detention got during the Obama administration was in 2014 when he average stay was 104 hours - well above the 72 legal limit. According to this article, the children alone average more than 6 days (or probably more, since that was what half of the children went through). Conditions are objectively worse under Trump.

    Of course, several months ago Democrats were saying "what crisis?" because they were convinced that the Mueller Report would nail Trump to the wall.


    .

    This is intellectually disingenuous. Democrats have been complaining about the detention of children in these horrible conditions almost since the moment it became public record. The "manufactured crisis" was over the deployment of national guard to the border to stop caravans that were months away.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I still can't get over the fact that 9800 of a total of 20,000 Border Patrol agents belong to a Facebook group that can only be described as eliminationist in it's rhetoric and it's barely a blip on the radar. It proves without a shadow of a doubt the culture among immigration authorities is beyond redemption. The views espoused by what ProPublica dug up are so far beyond the pale it's ridiculous. It's exactly what happens when you start labeling people as "parasites" and "vermin".
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited July 2019
    I suppose we could go back to the good old Bill Clinton days when he sent armed personnel to deport a child back to Cuba.

    Conditions are bad, to be certain, but apparently Trump's Administration won't listen to me when I give them advice on how they should be handling the situation.
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I still can't get over the fact that 9800 of a total of 20,000 Border Patrol agents belong to a Facebook group that can only be described as eliminationist in it's rhetoric and it's barely a blip on the radar. It proves without a shadow of a doubt the culture among immigration authorities is beyond redemption. The views espoused by what ProPublica dug up are so far beyond the pale it's ridiculous. It's exactly what happens when you start labeling people as "parasites" and "vermin".

    My concern is switching over to what will happen when--not if, but when--a group of people all wind up getting shot along the border in some sort of reaction to a "riot" or caravan. That crap is going to happen on my doorstep and it will make things much uglier than they already are.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    I suppose we could go back to the good old Bill Clinton days when he sent armed personnel to deport a child back to Cuba.

    Conditions are bad, to be certain, but apparently Trump's Administration won't listen to me when I give them advice on how they should be handling the situation.
    .

    I'll agree that no administration has a great track record of dealing immigrants. Trump seems to be far and away the worst, but that isn't me excusing the others.

    I actually was too young to have much of an opinion on Elian Gonzalez. I don't know if that was the right or wrong thing to do at all. I'd need to look into it first.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2019
    Elian Gonzalez was returned because his father was still in Cuba. His relatives had him in Miami. The question was whether the fact that Cuba was a communist country was a good enough reason to keep him away from his biological parent. The raid and infamous photo should have never been required. The relatives in Miami hating Castro was not sufficient reason to ignore his legal guardian's wishes.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2019
    My concern is switching over to what will happen when--not if, but when--a group of people all wind up getting shot along the border in some sort of reaction to a "riot" or caravan. That crap is going to happen on my doorstep and it will make things much uglier than they already are.

    It's definitely a "when". Either militia or the government are going to do it. They'll claim self defense. Trump already said he considers rocks to be a firearm, so he's giving his brown shirts and excuse to open fire and say "they were throwing rocks, just look at all the rocks!"

    ---
    Speaking of which there's a conspiracy theory, and I don't know how legit this site is, about in Hong Kong Police are threatening protesters and the guys watch says 5pm or something and there was a violent incident with literal false flags ("someone" put up a British flag) and destruction around 9pm and the video was released afterwards. Speculation is police are involved with escalating or even dressing up as protestors in order to smear the movement and justify violent crackdown.

    https://mothership.sg/2019/07/police-watch-warning-hong-kong-legco/

    ---
    finally, this speaks for itself. Conservatives have been complaining about socialism forever.

    scareword.jpg?resize=550,508
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/truman-socialism-scare-word/
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Can they *prove* that I was the one who loaned him the ammo? No? Then I had nothing to do with it.

    Then the whole going to a dealer thing is a moot point to begin with isn’t it?

    About armed militia eventually shooting migrants crossing the border:

    There need to be a lot of kudos going out to a lot of law enforcement groups for making sure this actually hasn’t happened yet.

    Although it does only take one to fall through the cracks so it is a matter of when and not if.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,388
    edited July 2019
    By the way, the conditions in most of these facilities are at this time the same conditions which existed back during the Obama Administration and the Bush Administration before that; it is not a Trump thing. The facilities are only overcrowded now because of Obama's "come on in, the water's fine" policy, which led to migration surges.

    Illegal immigration fell during Obama's presidency.
    2g9z6yxcrepx.png

    The point has also already been made that the policy on holding immigrants in camps has changed radically and that is the real reason why the camps are overcrowded. The rhetoric about immigrants is also bound to be responsible for at least part of the attitude of guards - either creating racism or giving implicit permission to be actively racist in a way that would not have been permitted in the past.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I don't believe Obama was exactly welcoming immigrants in, considering he deported a record number of illegals at the time. I'd credit the recession for the drop in immigration, though, rather than any particular Obama policy.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    semiticgod wrote: »
    I don't believe Obama was exactly welcoming immigrants in, considering he deported a record number of illegals at the time. I'd credit the recession for the drop in immigration, though, rather than any particular Obama policy.

    Well, the recession would have hit both economies at the same time. Typically large scale immigration issues happen around the time of economic slowdowns as people flee their country looking for economic security.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Totally normal. Tanks scheduled to roll down the streets of the nation's capital in peacetime strictly to appease the ego of the leader of the military:

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    semiticgod wrote: »
    I don't believe Obama was exactly welcoming immigrants in, considering he deported a record number of illegals at the time. I'd credit the recession for the drop in immigration, though, rather than any particular Obama policy.

    Well, the recession would have hit both economies at the same time. Typically large scale immigration issues happen around the time of economic slowdowns as people flee their country looking for economic security.
    Good point, though I was under the impression that the recession began in the U.S. and other countries were affected more indirectly, after a certain time delay.

    What else might explain the drop in immigration? I doubt it was the deportations, since that kind of more-subtle policy would take longer to have an impact, and the drop in immigration appears to have showed up rather early.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Totally normal. Tanks scheduled to roll down the streets of the nation's capital in peacetime strictly to appease the ego of the leader of the military:


    It's going to be another taxpayer funded rally for Trump.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2019
    I have to imagine this is the kind of grotesque shit you would have seen at the fall of the Roman Empire. Seriously, we're taking money from National Parks to fund a military parade. Trump has now hijacked the 4th of July and is turning it into a jingoistic campaign rally of militaristic masturbation. And money meant to keep some of this beauty in this country that is still left alive for awhile longer is being used to fund it. There is nothing to celebrate this 4th. Between what is going on in the camps and this, we should treat it more like a funeral:


    Any news network that carries this asinine spectacle should be ashamed of themselves. This is just flat-out disgusting. What an absolute pit of sewage this has all become. Where something that should be COMPLETELY unacceptable and seen as a profound and idiotic waste of money is just going to happen as everyone shrugs their shoulders. And that's without even bringing into the equation the propaganda element and that this has in every way basically morphed into a Republican fundraiser and campaign rally. This is all such a crock of shit. This is not how a serious country functions. If you can't see the problem with this, seek help. And shame on ANYONE who claims to "support the troops" and doesn't have a problem with this for making them participate in this fucking nonsense on a day the could have off with their family. And congratulations America, you've got yourself the Romanovs:

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    My only caveat with that editorial is the mention of military flyovers. I am pretty sure the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds have performed at these events in the past and is more of a tradition than a Trump’s “gaudy display of military hardware that is more in keeping with a banana republic than the world’s oldest democracy.”
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    My first reaction to the tanks in the parade story was: "That's going to rip the fuck out of the roads." I'm assuming the city of DC will get saddled with that bill. Too bad nobody thought of just using LAV-25's. It's not like Trump's smart enough to know the difference.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2019
    BillyYank wrote: »
    My first reaction to the tanks in the parade story was: "That's going to rip the fuck out of the roads." I'm assuming the city of DC will get saddled with that bill. Too bad nobody thought of just using LAV-25's. It's not like Trump's smart enough to know the difference.

    Trump still owes D.C. $7 million in inauguration costs, he's going to not pay DC again because that's what he does, he's rich but you can't see his taxes and he doesn't pay contractors or bills. He's been bankrupt several times. He's smart but he threatens jail if anyone releases his transcripts. He's a genius but he talks like an idiot. In other words, he's a fraud. A petulant narcissistic loser that way too many people pretend is something other than he is.


    Pay Me What You Owe Me: DC to Trump on $7 Million Unpaid Inauguration Bill Ahead of Planned July 4th Bash
    https://www.theroot.com/pay-me-what-you-owe-me-dc-to-trump-on-7-000-000-unpai-1835533554
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    congratulations America, you've got yourself the Romanovs:

    The Clintons are not in any political office at this time. Oh, wait--they are the Hapsburgs. My mistake.

    Meanwhile, in other un-American news, Frederica Wilson (D-FL) wants to make it a criminal offense to make fun of Members of Congress online. Making threats against people online is already a crime but this is her attempt to criminalize humor or parody.

    We are simply living in Rashomon now--everyone sees what they want to see only from their own perspective.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2019
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    congratulations America, you've got yourself the Romanovs:

    The Clintons are not in any political office at this time. Oh, wait--they are the Hapsburgs. My mistake.

    Meanwhile, in other un-American news, Frederica Wilson (D-FL) wants to make it a criminal offense to make fun of Members of Congress online. Making threats against people online is already a crime but this is her attempt to criminalize humor or parody.

    We are simply living in Rashomon now--everyone sees what they want to see only from their own perspective.

    I think you are getting your info from fake news there. This seems to be only a story on far right news outlets.

    She isn't against 'fun' in general. She was speaking about the disgusting Facebook group with the border patrol agents. A lot of their 'jokes' apparently crossed over into threats.

    Rep. Frederica Wilson (D., Fla.) said the border patrol agents who 'joked' about migrant deaths and posted sexist content in a Facebook group should be "prosecuted" during a press conference on Monday outside of a Homestead, Florida migrant detention center.
    These Facebook groups are also threatening members of Congress.

    Let's compare that to the other side shall we?
    Devin Nunes (R-CA) is suing ‘Devin Nunes’ cow’ Twitter account in court. That's actually just a fun thing, no threats, no death threats. He's doing something. In court.

    Trump (R-Russia) threatens reporters with prison time during interview and all the time really.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2019
    This is such BS. It's one thing if people who supposedly care about "fiscal responsibly" want to support (or vicariously take part in) Trump's act of overcompensation as he rolls a bunch of military phallic symbols through DC. It's quite another when the implicit message here is "the 4th of July is for my supporters only." And quite another when the RNC and Trump are MONETIZING the event and literally offering VIP access. It's one thing for us to pay for the President's transportation when he campaigns. This is a taxpayer funded campaign rally to help him get re-elected. Using money that has already been appropriated elsewhere. But once again, we stick to another ironclad rule of American politics, which is that conservatives get to complain ENDLESSLY about their taxdollars are spent and liberals are afforded no such courtesy in any conversation.
Sign In or Register to comment.