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  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I've complained about this tendency in the past--the fact that folks will not only fail to expect hard evidence, but not even demand a coherent storyline with specific details to it. When your standard for being convinced is for someone online to tell you "somebody did something bad and there's evidence," the problem is not that you're accepting that what you're being given is evidence, the problem is that you're taking a story about somebody you don't know, doing something left unmentioned, and then just filling in the blanks.

    It's one thing to assume a story is true before it's confirmed. It's another to assume a story is true when the story doesn't even have a who, what, when, where, how, or why.

    That's the beauty of conspiracy theories. You can fill in the blanks and just assume the bad guys are who you want them to be, and you can imagine they committed whatever you want them to.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited October 2020
    @Æmrys: If you really think this video is legit, I have a challenge for you. Find the full video of the National Press Club's press conference--if it actually exists, if such an event actually took place, then the first part of this video was at least not purely staged by random people from nowhere. If it does exist, it shouldn't be hard to find.

    If that part wasn't a fake, then maybe we can ask if that nameless Chinese guy is an actual source.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    Looks like I ruffled some feathers to the point of people accusing me of being an attention seeker. The videos are real. That is Hunter Biden in the video, there is a video of him having sex with a minor but I will not post it here. There is also videos of him physically abusing women while having intercorse with them.

    Say what you will or not, my opinions and the videos stand.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited October 2020
    Æmrys wrote: »
    Looks like I ruffled some feathers to the point of people accusing me of being an attention seeker. The videos are real. That is Hunter Biden in the video, there is a video of him having sex with a minor but I will not post it here. There is also videos of him physically abusing women while having intercorse with them.

    Say what you will or not, my opinions and the videos stand.

    First of all, I'm not going to SEEK OUT a video of someone having sex with a minor, because that is illegal in and of itself. I did click on no less than 5 videos on the GTV site, and not just your link. I went to the front page. The only actual video footage I found was the grainy foot-job. Now I'm being told there are more videos of him engaging in pedophilia and physical abuse. On the SAME website, I am now coming across videos that are claiming to be nude photos of Malia Obama. I'm spending my Sunday researching what essentially amounts to smut and pretending it's a political discussion.

    I have spent a good part of the day trying to find any kind of mainstream discussion of this taking place and it just doesn't exist. There aren't even any right-wing media outfits talking about it. It's not on Breitbart, it's not on TownHall, it's not even on Newsmax. That's as far into the cesspool as I am willing to wade. Because those guys will publish ANYTHING. But apparently not this.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    McConnell, just after the Senate votes to limit debate on Amy Coney Barrett:

    "A lot of what we’ve done over the last four years will be undone sooner or later by the next election. They won’t be able to do much about this for a long time to come."

    Even if Democrats win the Senate they won't be able to impeach Kavanaugh because like Trump it would take 66 votes to remove the sonofabitch and Republicans obviously will never do anything to the business criminals, liars, and sexual criminals in their party including their politicians wearing robes.

    Re: Hunter Biden: he's not running for anything who cares. This is pathetic.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    You all made it a political discussion or took it to heart, I said the videos are as real as the Trump pee pee videos and I did not think they would hurt Joe Biden. The credit card with the name of Obamas' daughter is out there now online fake as it is. People will see this stuff and it may change their decision on who they vote for. Nobody can say or see how someone will vote or how they determine who they vote for if we did then videos and smear campaign would not exist. Putting people to challenges and saying they are attention seekers, shaming or ridiculing is not healthy and leads to tribalism, the reason America is in the position it is today. I thought it was only a white supremacist thing.

    Searching and trying to discredit videos that may or may not be real shows just how low our political system has fallen. That we scream and yell that a Trump pee pee tape is reality but a Hunter Biden meth video is fantasy. Tribalism much.
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,177
    Given the increasing prevalence and quality of synthetic video footage - ‘deepfakes’- it is doubtful whether even a high quality video should be regarded as proof when it comes from a source without credentials. Especially anything pornographic as the technology is most advanced in that sort of area...
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    Mantis37 wrote: »
    Given the increasing prevalence and quality of synthetic video footage - ‘deepfakes’- it is doubtful whether even a high quality video should be regarded as proof when it comes from a source without credentials. Especially anything pornographic as the technology is most advanced in that sort of area...

    but Trumps pee pee tape is real tho cause orange bad.
    Put the tapes aside, Hunter Biden is a lobbyist, his father is a career politician and was wingman to one of the greatest presidents in American history. Let that sink in.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited October 2020
    Æmrys wrote: »
    You all made it a political discussion or took it to heart, I said the videos are as real as the Trump pee pee videos and I did not think they would hurt Joe Biden. The credit card with the name of Obamas' daughter is out there now online fake as it is. People will see this stuff and it may change their decision on who they vote for. Nobody can say or see how someone will vote or how they determine who they vote for if we did then videos and smear campaign would not exist. Putting people to challenges and saying they are attention seekers, shaming or ridiculing is not healthy and leads to tribalism, the reason America is in the position it is today. I thought it was only a white supremacist thing.

    Searching and trying to discredit videos that may or may not be real shows just how low our political system has fallen. That we scream and yell that a Trump pee pee tape is reality but a Hunter Biden meth video is fantasy. Tribalism much.

    There has never been more than ancillary discussion about the pee tape in this thread, and the overwhelming majority of posters, when it did come up said, "this is good for a laugh, but this probably isn't true". In the entirety of the last four years, it has been discussed FAR less in totality than the discussion about Hunter Biden this morning/afternoon. You are going to have to look long and hard to find someone going to the bat for the veracity of a tape no one has seen or knows anything about. I did a cursory search of "pee tape" and the phrase that was used about it was "if it exists", which isn't exactly a very declarative statement. I just found a quote of my own from 2017 on that very subject that says "I have no idea if the tape is real or not", and then dismissing the point of talking about it and immediately pointing at that the financial dealings of the discussion were far more relevant.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited October 2020
    Æmrys wrote: »

    Searching and trying to discredit videos that may or may not be real shows just how low our political system has fallen. That we scream and yell that a Trump pee pee tape is reality but a Hunter Biden meth video is fantasy. Tribalism much.

    Sorry - this rings exceptionally hollow/disingenuous. No one on here is arguing that the pee tape exists. I'm pretty sure the pee tape hasnt been discussed on here any meaningful sense in years, if ever. So you're falsely comparing a video you've proclaimed to be real despite its obvious authenticity issues to something... no one on here(but you) is talking about.

    Secondly - you're using that false equivalence to argue the political discussion has been demeaned. You're literally the only one who has brought up this ridiculous and salacious video/claim *and* the only one who has brought up the pee tape. Those of us pushing back are doing so to stop the political discussion in here from resembling a QAnon comment section

    We're trying to stop the very thing you're accusing us of being by pushing back on it. If someone posted a grainy video of a pee tape with clearly falsified circumstances, I'd push back on that too.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    edited October 2020
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Æmrys wrote: »
    You all made it a political discussion or took it to heart, I said the videos are as real as the Trump pee pee videos and I did not think they would hurt Joe Biden. The credit card with the name of Obamas' daughter is out there now online fake as it is. People will see this stuff and it may change their decision on who they vote for. Nobody can say or see how someone will vote or how they determine who they vote for if we did then videos and smear campaign would not exist. Putting people to challenges and saying they are attention seekers, shaming or ridiculing is not healthy and leads to tribalism, the reason America is in the position it is today. I thought it was only a white supremacist thing.

    Searching and trying to discredit videos that may or may not be real shows just how low our political system has fallen. That we scream and yell that a Trump pee pee tape is reality but a Hunter Biden meth video is fantasy. Tribalism much.

    There has never been more than ancillary discussion about the pee tape in this thread, and the overwhelming majority of posters, when it did come up said, "this is good for a laugh, but this probably isn't true". In the entirety of the last four years, it has been discussed FAR less in totality than the discussion about Hunter Biden this morning/afternoon. You are going to have to look long and hard to find someone going to the bat for the veracity of a tape no one has seen or knows anything about. I did a cursory search of "pee tape" and the phrase that was used about it was "if it exists", which isn't exactly a very declarative statement. I just found a quote of my own from 2017 on that very subject that says "I have no idea if the tape is real or not", and then dismissing the point of talking about it and immediately pointing at that the financial dealings of the discussion were far more relevant.

    Indirectly you are defending pee pee tape by even looking for it. Tribalism is a disease and it cannot be allowed to flourish in a open and democratic society.

    *Edit. Hunter Biden was and still is a lobbyist and broker, he never left his post. Does this have anything to do with the election, don't think it does but to say that the Democratic party shit don't stink.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    edited October 2020
    Æmrys wrote: »

    Searching and trying to discredit videos that may or may not be real shows just how low our political system has fallen. That we scream and yell that a Trump pee pee tape is reality but a Hunter Biden meth video is fantasy. Tribalism much.

    Sorry - this rings exceptionally hollow/disingenuous. No one on here is arguing that the pee tape exists. I'm pretty sure the pee tape hasnt been discussed on here any meaningful sense in years, if ever. So you're falsely comparing a video you've proclaimed to be real despite its obvious authenticity issues to something... no one on here(but you) is talking about.

    Secondly - you're using that false equivalence to argue the political discussion has been demeaned. You're literally the only one who has brought up this ridiculous and salacious video/claim *and* the only one who has brought up the pee tape. Those of us pushing back are doing so to stop the political discussion in here from resembling a QAnon comment section

    We're trying to stop the very thing you're accusing us of being by pushing back on it. If someone posted a grainy video of a pee tape with clearly falsified circumstances, I'd push back on that too.

    Of course you are right, I forgot about the mole in the White House Patriot that was being peddled, we forget too soon.

    And to answer your last comment, no you would not.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited October 2020
    The pee tape (from the ability I have to find old posts about it without going through THOUSANDS of pages one by one) was discussed here only in relation to the Steele Dossier. It was MOSTLY used to dismiss the entirety of the dossier, which was a raw intelligence report not meant to be taken as 100% factual without further verification. My own comments on it were:

    1.) I have no idea if it's real or not

    2.) Trump's general moral character does not make it impossible

    3.) This is a distraction and irrelevant compared to the financial ties discussed in the same document.

    That is it. That is as far as this thread (or the old one) EVER got to "taking the pee tape seriously". In other words, it never happened.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Æmrys wrote: »
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Æmrys wrote: »
    You all made it a political discussion or took it to heart, I said the videos are as real as the Trump pee pee videos and I did not think they would hurt Joe Biden. The credit card with the name of Obamas' daughter is out there now online fake as it is. People will see this stuff and it may change their decision on who they vote for. Nobody can say or see how someone will vote or how they determine who they vote for if we did then videos and smear campaign would not exist. Putting people to challenges and saying they are attention seekers, shaming or ridiculing is not healthy and leads to tribalism, the reason America is in the position it is today. I thought it was only a white supremacist thing.

    Searching and trying to discredit videos that may or may not be real shows just how low our political system has fallen. That we scream and yell that a Trump pee pee tape is reality but a Hunter Biden meth video is fantasy. Tribalism much.

    There has never been more than ancillary discussion about the pee tape in this thread, and the overwhelming majority of posters, when it did come up said, "this is good for a laugh, but this probably isn't true". In the entirety of the last four years, it has been discussed FAR less in totality than the discussion about Hunter Biden this morning/afternoon. You are going to have to look long and hard to find someone going to the bat for the veracity of a tape no one has seen or knows anything about. I did a cursory search of "pee tape" and the phrase that was used about it was "if it exists", which isn't exactly a very declarative statement. I just found a quote of my own from 2017 on that very subject that says "I have no idea if the tape is real or not", and then dismissing the point of talking about it and immediately pointing at that the financial dealings of the discussion were far more relevant.

    Indirectly you are defending pee pee tape by even looking for it. Tribalism is a disease and it cannot be allowed to flourish in a open and democratic society.

    What are you talking about?? I did it to research what was said about it in good faith because it's literally been YEARS since it was a topic here. I tracked down one of my OWN posts from years ago, which I was certainly under no obligation to do to see if I had, in fact, made a declarative statement about it like you have today in regards to Hunter Biden. And the very ACT of doing so means I'm giving life to it?? This was not my idea of a Sunday, I assure you.

    You chose it to be JJ, only you can choose what and what you don't do. Ive' said it before you are a very articulate and well rounded person, educated and compassionate but you are wound up too tight. I don't want to even think what people would do if trump did win next week.
  • MichelleMichelle Member Posts: 550
    It absolutely amazes me that people are still fighting masks. It comes from the top though and failure to make them mandatory. Seatbelts are mandatory, why not masks? Seatbelts save your life, masks save everyone else’s. I have only contempt for the anti maskers. I honestly think that will never go away. Someone who is stupid enough to support Trump or not wear masks, I will never respect again. My life doesn’t matter to them? Fine, nothing they do hereafter will matter to me. Ignorant people piss me off. County’s going off the charts with COVID-19 and only a little over a half of the people I see are wearing masks. A guy hit on me yesterday when I was getting my football beer for today.
    Gonna drink those all yourself?
    Well not all today, most is for football tomorrow.
    Can I join you? Or we can just hang out?
    Usually someone like that in front of a bunch of other people I will let them down as easy as possible unless they push it. He wasn’t wearing a mask though. I laughed at him. Yeah I feel bad, he looked like he was going to crawl inside his soul like a hermit crab and crawl away. As awful as it felt to hurt someone like that, they revolt me and it just popped out. Grr! Now I feel bad because someone didn’t want to wear a mask. Messed up huh? The world has gone crazy. I know I am not normal, kay not even close, but wow. It is beginning to feel like normal is a thing of the past, and not just because of COVID-19.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Forgive me, @Æmrys, but suggesting that @jjstraka34 would act hypocritically in a hypothetical circumstance is not fair--and it goes against his posting history. I remember him dismissing that issue (I hate to even use the phrase "pee tape" to describe it) as meaningless back when we first discussed it; I was there for that conversation. He's never deemed that issue meaningful before, even on the off chance there was any truth to it--and he's being quite honest when he said he never suggested there was.

    I've known him for many years and these salacious stories have never been on his radar. He's always viewed them as silly distractions, and described them as such. Normally he focuses on monetary and corruption issues.

    Not that an individual forumite's record is a valid subject for public criticism (I'm no longer a moderator, but I can confirm that would be against the thread rules--I would know; I wrote them), but for what it's worth, he's already on record applying the same standard to his political opponents, when it comes to that issue.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    It absolutely amazes me that people are still fighting masks. It comes from the top though and failure to make them mandatory. Seatbelts are mandatory, why not masks? Seatbelts save your life, masks save everyone else’s. I have only contempt for the anti maskers. I honestly think that will never go away. Someone who is stupid enough to support Trump or not wear masks, I will never respect again. My life doesn’t matter to them? Fine, nothing they do hereafter will matter to me. Ignorant people piss me off. County’s going off the charts with COVID-19 and only a little over a half of the people I see are wearing masks. A guy hit on me yesterday when I was getting my football beer for today.
    Gonna drink those all yourself?
    Well not all today, most is for football tomorrow.
    Can I join you? Or we can just hang out?
    Usually someone like that in front of a bunch of other people I will let them down as easy as possible unless they push it. He wasn’t wearing a mask though. I laughed at him. Yeah I feel bad, he looked like he was going to crawl inside his soul like a hermit crab and crawl away. As awful as it felt to hurt someone like that, they revolt me and it just popped out. Grr! Now I feel bad because someone didn’t want to wear a mask. Messed up huh? The world has gone crazy. I know I am not normal, kay not even close, but wow. It is beginning to feel like normal is a thing of the past, and not just because of COVID-19.

    I have no problem if people who don't wear masks feel shame for not doing so. Feeling shame is an admission they know they are wrong. If they know they should be doing it, and don't anyway, then their selfishness is pretty nakedly on display indeed.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited October 2020
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Forgive me, @Æmrys, but suggesting that @jjstraka34 would act hypocritically in a hypothetical circumstance is not fair--and it goes against his posting history. I remember him dismissing that issue (I hate to even use the phrase "pee tape" to describe it) as meaningless back when we first discussed it; I was there for that conversation. He's never deemed that issue meaningful before, even on the off chance there was any truth to it--and he's being quite honest when he said he never suggested there was.

    I've known him for many years and these salacious stories have never been on his radar. He's always viewed them as silly distractions, and described them as such. Normally he focuses on monetary and corruption issues.

    Not that an individual forumite's record is a valid subject for public criticism (I'm no longer a moderator, but I can confirm that would be against the thread rules--I would know; I wrote them), but for what it's worth, he's already on record applying the same standard to his political opponents, when it comes to that issue.

    I am also fairly clearly on the record stating that neither Trump nor Bill Clinton has been proven to be guilty of anything related to Jeffery Epstein, because no evidence suggests they did anything more than hang out with him in rich social circles. Trump clearly had a falling out with him at some point, and the MAIN girl in the Netflix documentary, who has NO trouble naming names said Clinton did nothing improper. There are people on the left AND right who insist one or the other is obviously a pedophile. We know no such thing. Trump does (very oddly) defend Ghislaine Maxwell in an off-hand way, but I suspect it's because he believes HE is always being persecuted, so it's likely other people are being persecuted as well.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Forgive me, @Æmrys, but suggesting that @jjstraka34 would act hypocritically in a hypothetical circumstance is not fair--and it goes against his posting history. I remember him dismissing that issue (I hate to even use the phrase "pee tape" to describe it) as meaningless back when we first discussed it; I was there for that conversation. He's never deemed that issue meaningful before, even on the off chance there was any truth to it--and he's being quite honest when he said he never suggested there was.

    I've known him for many years and these salacious stories have never been on his radar. He's always viewed them as silly distractions, and described them as such. Normally he focuses on monetary and corruption issues.

    Not that an individual forumite's record is a valid subject for public criticism (I'm no longer a moderator, but I can confirm that would be against the thread rules--I would know; I wrote them), but for what it's worth, he's already on record applying the same standard to his political opponents, when it comes to that issue.

    JJ can speak for himself and I value his opinions.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I remember a while ago I said that one should always be proud of one's views, and never be ashamed to express it. My corollary to that idea, though, was that if you couldn't be proud of your views, you should change them. I think a lot of folks these days--and to be clear, this is not something I've seen in this thread; it's a problem I've seen elsewhere--know on some level that they're doing or saying something wrong, and instead of changing it, they just want someone to reassure them that they have nothing to be ashamed of, and they want folks not to remind them of the conscience nagging at them.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    I think America one day will wake up from this nightmare and see how separating children from their parents at the border was wrong and to put in place laws not to let it happen again. To never take their foot off the accelerator when it comes to systemic racism and privilege. There will be a lot of gnashing of teeth before it happens though.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Forgive me, @Æmrys, but suggesting that @jjstraka34 would act hypocritically in a hypothetical circumstance is not fair--and it goes against his posting history. I remember him dismissing that issue (I hate to even use the phrase "pee tape" to describe it) as meaningless back when we first discussed it; I was there for that conversation. He's never deemed that issue meaningful before, even on the off chance there was any truth to it--and he's being quite honest when he said he never suggested there was.

    I've known him for many years and these salacious stories have never been on his radar. He's always viewed them as silly distractions, and described them as such. Normally he focuses on monetary and corruption issues.

    Not that an individual forumite's record is a valid subject for public criticism (I'm no longer a moderator, but I can confirm that would be against the thread rules--I would know; I wrote them), but for what it's worth, he's already on record applying the same standard to his political opponents, when it comes to that issue.

    I am also fairly clearly on the record stating that neither Trump nor Bill Clinton has been proven to be guilty of anything related to Jeffery Epstein, because no evidence suggests they did anything more than hang out with him in rich social circles. Trump clearly had a falling out with him at some point, and the MAIN girl in the Netflix documentary, who has NO trouble naming names said Clinton did nothing improper. There are people on the left AND right who insist one or the other is obviously a pedophile. We know no such thing. Trump does (very oddly) defend Ghislaine Maxwell in an off-hand way, but I suspect it's because he believes HE is always being persecuted, so it's likely other people are being persecuted as well.
    It annoys me that Trump is being accused of pedophilia on very weak grounds. The pieces of "evidence" for that that I've heard of make him look bad, but don't add up to that claim. I haven't criticized that view very much, though... maybe because it hasn't come up in this thread, where most of my political opinions get voiced, but maybe also just because I defended Trump against a lot of little things around 2016, and I've grown a little weary of defending a reputation that doesn't really deserve to be out of the gutter.

    I guess for the sake of purism I could issue a full-throated condemnation of the idea that Trump is a pedophile, but you kinda have to wonder what sort of hill you'd be willing to die on to say "sure, he's a petty, immature, dishonest criminal who's funneled millions of tax dollars into his hotels, openly advocated violence, encouraged white supremacists, promoted conspiracy theories, makes up absolute lies on a regular basis, has committed obstruction of justice and campaign finance violations, has credible rape allegations against him and has proudly admitted to molesting women, has spent his entire presidency whining about people not liking him enough on Twitter while letting a corrupt Congress do nothing but enrich the wealthy and stack every court they can, and is directly responsible for killing tens of thousands of Americans by explicitly telling people both in the government and in the general public NOT to protect themselves from a virus that's already killed over 220,000 Americans in less than a year, all while thwarting aid for ordinary people struggling to survive in the ailing pandemic economy, but I'm pretty sure he's not a pedophile."
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Frankly, I think the pedophilia accusation against Biden suddenly popping up in the last two weeks before Election Day is just a mark of the Trump campaign's total lack of ideas. It's the least creative personal attack you can make, the one you'd make when you can't think of anything more grounded in reality.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    DinoDin wrote: »
    Should be obvious what this person's agenda is now. And that's not to contribute sincerely to the discussions on here.

    Careful DD, wouldn't want you to get another strike.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the pedophilia accusation against Biden suddenly popping up in the last two weeks before Election Day is just a mark of the Trump campaign's total lack of ideas. It's the least creative personal attack you can make, the one you'd make when you can't think of anything more grounded in reality.

    This I agree with.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Æmrys wrote: »
    I think America one day will wake up from this nightmare and see how separating children from their parents at the border was wrong and to put in place laws not to let it happen again. To never take their foot off the accelerator when it comes to systemic racism and privilege. There will be a lot of gnashing of teeth before it happens though.

    There's already laws against it. Have been since the Obama administration when he attempted to hold families while waiting for decision. A federal judge struck that down, stating that holding any minors in that capacity was against federal law. Trump simply ignored it.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Æmrys wrote: »
    DinoDin wrote: »
    Should be obvious what this person's agenda is now. And that's not to contribute sincerely to the discussions on here.
    Careful DD, wouldn't want you to get another strike.
    This also is not open for public discussion. And for the record, no one here has a public rap sheet with the moderating team. If any user has received a "strike" (and the proper term is "warning" here), no other user outside the moderating team is informed of its existence--I know you don't know if someone else has ever received a warning.

    Public scolding is not how they do things here; that entire subject is confidential.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    Even though trump did perform better (which I state from a theatrical perspective) at the last debate he still had the same talking points and the 'I gotcha' moments. guess that comes from not being a politician. Joe Biden didn't sell it though, not enough to push that undecided on the fence voter, they're too small to make a difference anyway. Unless something huge happens I don't see how Biden can lose and the people can start to heal from a out of control rollercoaster of a presidential term.
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