@deltago: I appreciate you trying to stay focused on individual details and not making assumptions while the full story is not yet known. It's worth pointing out that we only know the broad strokes at this point; a lot of the events are currently in the fog of war to those of us who weren't there.
Hard to compare two cases and decide it's a total double standard when it's also a total false equivalency. Sorry - but you can spend as many 5 minute increments as you want posting protests at government buildings, they arent the same as a mob incited to violence attacking the seat of government for the sake of preventing the operation of democracy and overturning the results of a fair and free election.
Fascism is a hell of a drug.
It's a little game we play. You express wildly different sentiments about the exact same type of events, with no meaningful moral differences, I call you out on it, you say false equivalency. It's a game that never gets old, because there are an endless series of abstractions, minor details, or other minutae you can use to pretend that there is a semblance of consistency here. I know very well convincing you isn't a possibility. After all, in your eyes i'm a fascist, barely worthy of human rights, to be exterminated at the first convenient possibility. Dialogue is impossible in such circumstances.
You are trying to compare people yelling loudly in the hallways of the Kavanaugh hearings (at worst) with about a 1000 people breaking into the Capitol building by force and breaching both chambers of Congress. It isn't @BallpointMan who is inconsistent. You are comparing apples to grenade launchers.
Possession of a gun, or merely being in the proximity of a large group of people, maybe a handful of which have guns, makes you by definition not peaceful?
Yes, it does. Especially in the given context. This was not some hunting trip where you have no reason to fear your fellow hunters simply because they are carrying rifles. The storming of the Capitol is a different context altogether. Are you saying that law enforcement had no reason to believe that the protestors were armed and dangerous?
It was so obviously prima facie absurd I felt like it would be uncharitable of me to interpret the comment in that way. But I can't see any other way it can be interpreted.
Your interpretation of my comment is correct. My claim is, indeed, what you have stated: that the possession of a gun makes you by definition not peaceful. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're a peaceful person, there's no reason for you to own a gun. Now, there's nothing wrong with owning a gun per se, but if you do own one, then by definition you are not a peaceful individual. Just own up to the fact that you believe that violence is justified in some situations. By contrast, a peaceful person believes that violence is never the answer to anything. This is not my own point of view, because I do believe that violence is necessary sometimes. I suppose that the only difference between you and me on this point is that I'm simply saying it without trying to sugarcoat it one way or another.
As an aside, I didn't see a single person inside the Capitol with any sort of weapon and I highly doubt it happened because it would have been blasted on social media. Maybe they were a few guys outside with them, I didn't see them, but I believe it happened if you say it did.
You're being disingenuous, you don't and wouldn't believe me if I said it happened. I can post some photos if that's what you're requesting.
I will also say, when the Kavanaugh protests were happening, nothing was suppose to be predetermined. Politicians were suppose to be doing their job and vetting the candidate. The protesters were there to say that he should not be appointed to the supreme court. Once he was appointed, the protesters took the L and went home determined to keep holding the Senate responsible for their actions.
The outcome could have been changed. Here, what this mob was protesting couldn't be changed, only stopped. That's the difference.
Another point I want to address, because people are blowing over it. 52 people were arrested and charged by police. Who knows what they were charged with, however, I have yet to see a video of a person casually strolling through the building with a weapon. Police might have been selective with whom they were going after based on threat, and their low numbers.
Before it's the next example, the Wisconsin State House protests about, oh, 8-10 years ago now it seems, were basically a sit-in. And they were 110% peaceful, unless one considers Native American drum circles violent.
Hard to compare two cases and decide it's a total double standard when it's also a total false equivalency. Sorry - but you can spend as many 5 minute increments as you want posting protests at government buildings, they arent the same as a mob incited to violence attacking the seat of government for the sake of preventing the operation of democracy and overturning the results of a fair and free election.
Fascism is a hell of a drug.
It's a little game we play. You express wildly different sentiments about the exact same type of events, with no meaningful moral differences, I call you out on it, you say false equivalency. It's a game that never gets old, because there are an endless series of abstractions, minor details, or other minutae you can use to pretend that there is a semblance of consistency here. I know very well convincing you isn't a possibility. After all, in your eyes i'm a fascist, barely worthy of human rights, to be exterminated at the first convenient possibility. Dialogue is impossible in such circumstances.
The fact that you consider the attempted prevention of the functioning of democracy by attacking the seat of government and a protest at the SCOTUS to be the same thing belies either a willful misunderstanding of the situation based on ideological grounds - or ignorance.
I dont think you're ignorant.
Also: Where did I say you should be exterminated? Or that you arent worth human rights? Oh... I didnt. You're doing that thing where people mischaracterize the argument to try to obtain the moral high ground. You've got the invention of false aggrievement part of modern conservatism down pact, kudos for that.
I've been hoping Trumpism would fizzle out as people realized what a spectacular, stupid failure it was when it held power. I am less and less confident that they will just lose interest and walk away. Social media can spread any idea, however insane, and people will believe it if it makes them feel good or superior.
This does not make me feel good, and I do not feel proud that we've descended this far. I want to check out and forget it, but that just seems irresponsible.
I think we will see more violence. And just like the storming of the Capitol, it will be delusional fascists who believed random lies they heard on social media, attacking people who are just going through the normal motions of American democracy.
Yes, it does. Especially in the given context. This was not some hunting trip were you have no reason to fear your fellow hunters simply because they are carrying rifles. The storming of the Capitol is a different context altogether. Are you saying that law enforcement had no reason to believe that the protestors were armed and dangerous?
Was there or was there not armed groups of people storming the Capitol?
If there was, than I can see very good reasons for that person to be shot. But it was an unarmed woman, standing behind police officers. An entirely different scenario. How does your hypothetical apply to this person?
Your interpretation of my comment is correct. My claim is, indeed, what you have stated: that the possession of a gun makes you by definition not peaceful. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're a peaceful person, there's no reason for you to own a gun. Now, there's nothing wrong with owning a gun per se, but if you do own one, then by definition you are not a peaceful individual. Just own up to the fact that you believe that violence is justified in some situations.
Well then, there is no reason to go any further than that, is there? I explained why I feel perfectly justified in laughing that argument off. The belief in self defense is not what people are talking about when they describe protestors as peaceful or not, in any context. Protestors also have a legal and moral right to self defense, it turns out.
You're being disingenuous, you don't and wouldn't believe me if I said it happened. I can post some photos if that's what you're requesting.
Yes, I do want photos. I am also very suspicious of it because this has gotten nearly nonstop coverage and not a single source i've looked at has made any mention of this.
You are trying to compare people yelling loudly in the hallways of the Kavanaugh hearings (at worst) with about a 1000 people breaking into the Capitol building by force and breaching both chambers of Congress.
Isn't it incredible how the power of adjectives and limited context can make the exact same things seem so wildly different? It's a fun exercise in creativity, and I suppose it helps to alleviate cognitive dissonance.
The fact that you consider the attempted prevention of the functioning of democracy by attacking the seat of government and a protest at the SCOTUS to be the same thing belies either a willful misunderstanding of the situation based on ideological grounds - or ignorance.
Lmao. The next time I need to strike a death blow to the heart of a democratic republic, I suppose all I need to do is hire a group of stooges to wear animal skins and parade about the capitol floor for a couple hours. Truly, no free society can survive such an authoritarian deathblow.
Your exaggerations of this group of people has left reality so far behind I can't even pretend not to find it at least somewhat funny at this point. The sad part is, this is basically the consensus.
Also - to be clear, and stop the weird invented aggrievement argument from going further (I know this wont, but humor me):
It's just a goddamn tragedy that the woman at the riot was shot and killed. I sincerely hope they figure out who shot her and take all necessary steps to determine if it was remotely warranted. The videos I've seen dont make it seem like it was.
She was part of a mob assaulting the seat of power of the US government with the express aim of forestalling or preventing the transfer of power. That's damning and disgusting - but she didnt deserve to die for it. No one did.
Unfortunately - her blood is also on the hands of the people that help set her into that situation. That's Cruz. Hawley. Trump, and so on. It's also on the hands of the man who shot her.
The fact that you consider the attempted prevention of the functioning of democracy by attacking the seat of government and a protest at the SCOTUS to be the same thing belies either a willful misunderstanding of the situation based on ideological grounds - or ignorance.
Lmao. The next time I need to strike a death blow to the heart of a democratic republic, I suppose all I need to do is hire a group of stooges to wear animal skins and parade about the capitol floor for a couple hours. Truly, no free society can survive such an authoritarian deathblow.
Your exaggerations of this group of people has left reality so far behind I can't even pretend not to find it at least somewhat funny at this point. The sad part is, this is basically the consensus.
They literally achieved their goal for six hours. If they hadn't been cleared out, they'd still be achieving it. No member of the Legislative Branch was able to leave their office or where they were sequestered for that time period. Which means they were functionally hostages to the mob that had taken over. And since their ONLY duty yesterday was certification of the votes of the electors of the 50 states, democracy was held hostage for the exact same amount of time. As I said, the Constitution calls for this to take place on a SPECIFIC day. They caused it to technically take place the next day. It was temporary, but they did EXACTLY what they set out to do.
I'd blame whoever pulled the trigger first and foremost. But that bullet would have hit whoever was at the front of the charge. It wasn't the police that manufactured that moment or started the hostilities. The invasion had been going on well before then.
I'm scanning the first images that pop up and I'm struck by how many of the fascists are posing for pictures and taking pictures of the building they broke into. I have no doubt they are incredibly proud of themselves for overpowering the police--and it speaks to the sheer sense of impunity that made them think they could safely take pictures of themselves proving that they were part of the riot.
They had an absolute blast doing that. I bet they felt like kings. Like I said before about the alt right, much of the appeal is about having fun and feeling powerful and superior.
Remember that picture of that guy stealing an entire podium on his way out? The audacity is incredible.
I'd blame whoever pulled the trigger first and foremost. But that bullet would have hit whoever was at the front of the charge. It wasn't the police that manufactured that moment or started the hostilities. The invasion had been going on well before then.
I'm scanning the first images that pop up and I'm struck by how many of the fascists are posing for pictures and taking pictures of the building they broke into. I have no doubt they are incredibly proud of themselves for overpowering the police--and it speaks to the sheer sense of impunity that made them think they could safely take pictures of themselves proving that they were part of the riot.
They had an absolute blast doing that. I bet they felt like kings. Like I said before about the alt right, much of the appeal is about having fun and feeling powerful and superior.
Remember that picture of that guy stealing an entire podium on his way out? The audacity is incredible.
The cruelty is the point, but now so is "getting away with it", as I posted last night.
And after a long series of total failures of leadership, a pandemic that killed 350,000 people, countless acts of corruption and a record number of administration members being convicted of and pleading guilty to felonies, all under a president who spent most of his time watching TV and tweeting instead of working on anything, with no major legislation passed beyond massive tax cuts for the wealthy and a poorly handled pair of stimulus bills that also funneled money to the wealthy above all else, our only consolation is that we'll have a couple of years of quiet centrist rule. We don't even know how much the Biden administration will accomplish while the Democrats have both houses of Congress and the presidency.
The last time that happened, all we got was a compromise healthcare bill based on Romneycare and a bailout bill originally designed by the Bush administration. I think we're going to just have another couple years of Republican-lite policies.
They had an absolute blast doing that. I bet they felt like kings.
Probably, yeah. I can't see how it will do anything but energize them to do it more. It would be nice to see capital buildings across the country occupied by "fascists". "No justice, no peace" or whatever the young people say.
"Armed supporters of the recently defeated Nicolas Maduro stormed the National Assembly today, delaying a certification of the election winner."
"Armed supporters of the recently defeated Benjamin Netanyahu stormed the Knesset today, delaying a certification of the election winner."
"Armed supporters of the recently defeated Boris Johnson stormed the Parliament today, delaying a certification of the election winner."
"Armed supporters of Lopez Obrador stormed the Mexican legislature today, delaying a certification of the election winner."
We know what we would call these things if they happened in a country outside of the US. That some apologize for them and want to conflate them with unarmed, Code Pink style protesters delaying a mere hearing is illuminating.
It's also super valuable to connect the Georgia elections and the recent events at the Capitol.
While American conservatives were organizing an anti-democratic action intended to seize power, they squandered their last chance at maintaining, real, legitimate, democratic power. Two very narrow election losses in Georgia. A little more organizing from American conservatives and they could have won those.
But they chose to prioritize action in the Capitol instead. That says everything about where the movement's priorities are right now.
There is no way the Republicans are going to do anything but condemn these people, which doesn't surprise me in the least. Trump, Graham, etc. are already doing it, despite Trump himself being ultimately culpable for everyone being there. The President himself has said constantly that the election is an illegitimate fraud that has been stolen from him, acts invitational to them on Twitter, and ultimately acts like he has nothing to do with the group of supporters he incited to arrive in his name. The most shameful qualities in a leader I have ever seen. Conversely, I have nothing but the highest respect for people willing to risk their safety and security to stand up nonviolently for what they believe in.
The lady that died truly believed she was protesting against an illegitimate, rigged election, and probably believed Trump would protect them in some way. What an absolutely disgusting way to leave office. Banned on nearly every social media platform at this point, unable to even send his concession message from his own social media due to it, conceding the election after loudly calling it a fraud and asking the FBI to punish his own supporters for believing his own words.
I can't even properly describe my level of disgust right now.
It's also super valuable to connect the Georgia elections and the recent events at the Capitol.
While American conservatives were organizing an anti-democratic action intended to seize power, they squandered their last chance at maintaining, real, legitimate, democratic power. Two very narrow election losses in Georgia. A little more organizing from American conservatives and they could have won those.
But they chose to prioritize action in the Capitol instead. That says everything about where the movement's priorities are right now.
Well frankly - I think this reflects the political disposition of a significant number of people in the country. They'd rather don blackshirts and attack the seat of government than peacefully mobilize in order to win elections.
It makes a certain amount of sense in that the GOP has a real issue with winning elections via the popular vote. If you cant win elections, I guess the next best thing is to subvert democracy.
The irony being, of course, that they're assaulting the beloved Electoral College, which is the only byzantine institution that keeps conservatives in power. Without that, they'd actually need to adjust their politics so they arent so utterly unpopular.
The lady that died truly believed she was protesting against an illegitimate, rigged election, and probably believed Trump would protect them in some way. What an absolutely disgusting way to leave office. Banned on nearly every social media platform at this point, unable to even send his concession message from his own social media due to it, conceding the election after loudly calling it a fraud and asking the FBI to punish his own supporters for believing his own words.
I can't even properly describe my level of disgust right now.
This, at least, is accurate. I'd use the "they were told endless times" line, but it doesn't matter what they are told. People don't leave cults because they are persuaded to. In most cases they have to come to the realization themselves. And if anyone, from Mike Pence to the woman killed yesterday, at this late date, ACTUALLY still believed Donald Trump wouldn't turn on them or betray them, then that is the most concrete proof yet of how deep these people have gotten themselves. Because there isn't a single act he has taken in his entire life that would suggest he would act otherwise.
The lady that died truly believed she was protesting against an illegitimate, rigged election, and probably believed Trump would protect them in some way. What an absolutely disgusting way to leave office. Banned on nearly every social media platform at this point, unable to even send his concession message from his own social media due to it, conceding the election after loudly calling it a fraud and asking the FBI to punish his own supporters for believing his own words.
I can't even properly describe my level of disgust right now.
This, at least, is accurate. I'd use the "they were told endless times" line, but it doesn't matter what they are told. People don't leave cults because they are persuaded to. In most cases they have to come to the realization themselves. And if anyone, from Mike Pence to the woman killed yesterday, at this late date, ACTUALLY still believed Donald Trump wouldn't turn on them or betray them, then that is the most concrete proof yet of how deep these people have gotten themselves. Because there isn't a single act he has taken in his entire life that would suggest he would act otherwise.
If you agree, then maybe we can agree on one more thing: I don't think "fascist" is an appropriate term to describe someone who sincerely believes they are defending the sitting President from a case of a stolen election, similar to an actual coup. Hopelessly misguided, naïve, gullible, all of these things are accurate, but a hatred of democracy is not a trait I would ascribe to them.
Everyone has deeply held beliefs. What matters is which beliefs are actually the closest to the truth. Poisoning your kids because you thought, with all of your heart, that you were giving them medicine still means your kids are dead. What distinguishes a genius from an idiot is not who clings to their beliefs the most strongly.
The lady that died truly believed she was protesting against an illegitimate, rigged election, and probably believed Trump would protect them in some way. What an absolutely disgusting way to leave office. Banned on nearly every social media platform at this point, unable to even send his concession message from his own social media due to it, conceding the election after loudly calling it a fraud and asking the FBI to punish his own supporters for believing his own words.
I can't even properly describe my level of disgust right now.
This, at least, is accurate. I'd use the "they were told endless times" line, but it doesn't matter what they are told. People don't leave cults because they are persuaded to. In most cases they have to come to the realization themselves. And if anyone, from Mike Pence to the woman killed yesterday, at this late date, ACTUALLY still believed Donald Trump wouldn't turn on them or betray them, then that is the most concrete proof yet of how deep these people have gotten themselves. Because there isn't a single act he has taken in his entire life that would suggest he would act otherwise.
If you agree, then maybe we can agree on one more thing: I don't think "fascist" is an appropriate term to describe someone who sincerely believes they are defending the sitting President from a case of a stolen election, similar to an actual coup. Hopelessly misguided, naïve, gullible, all of these things are accurate, but a hatred of democracy is not a trait I would ascribe to them.
Nah.
The stolen election myth is a racist lie. Where was the election supposedly stolen? Atlanta, Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee. Let's not play dumb. We all know what that means. It's the exact same reason why people brandished confederate battle flags without an iota of shame at the Capitol assault. These people don't want fair elections. They are fascists.
Everyone has deeply held beliefs. What matters is which beliefs are actually the closest to the truth. Poisoning your kids because you thought, with all of your heart, that you were giving them medicine still means your kids are dead. What distinguishes a genius from an idiot is not who clings to their beliefs the most strongly.
It's reality.
This is extremely well said. People have confused having a strong opinion on something with virtue. It also grossly downplays two actual virtues -- skepticism and self reflection.
Was there or was there not armed groups of people storming the Capitol?
If there was, than I can see very good reasons for that person to be shot. But it was an unarmed woman, standing behind police officers. An entirely different scenario. How does your hypothetical apply to this person?
It doesn't. That woman should not have been shot. If you're asking me to condemn the officers involved in that incident, and their police department in general, then you don't have to try very hard. Of course I condemn them.
The entire operative was a disaster. What should have happened is immediate detainment of everyone that breached or attempted to breach into the building. That's it. Now, if things escalate from there, the appropriate response is to deescalate the situation. This shows once again the utter incompetence of almost every officer involved in yesterday's incident. Letting the protesters pass through is not deescalation. Finally, if all attempts at deescalation fail, only then you resort to force, and you do this within reason, i. e., by handcuffing people and placing them into custody, not by shooting an unarmed person.
Yes, I do want photos. I am also very suspicious of it because this has gotten nearly nonstop coverage and not a single source i've looked at has made any mention of this.
You're right. I was about to post several photos from different news sites, but after checking to make sure everything was accurate, it turns out that all of the photos are of the Michigan incident. So, no, there are not photos of armed protesters from yesterday's incident in Washington DC.
It was smart of them not to carry weapons to the protest, I'll give them that.
Why are we debating this moronic communist/fascist bullshit in this day and age? Right-wing nutjobs tried to overturn an election. Who gives a shit if they're called 'fascists' or not? I equally won't care if the next left-wing nutjobs who do something like this get called communists either. I do think these words are chosen deliberately though. 'Extremist' just doesn't evoke the same feelings of moral supremacy when uttered...
I'd argue fascist is important because it distinguishes people who are willing to work within legitimate democratic means and those who will take extraordinary means when they don't get their way.
Comments
You are trying to compare people yelling loudly in the hallways of the Kavanaugh hearings (at worst) with about a 1000 people breaking into the Capitol building by force and breaching both chambers of Congress. It isn't @BallpointMan who is inconsistent. You are comparing apples to grenade launchers.
Yes, it does. Especially in the given context. This was not some hunting trip where you have no reason to fear your fellow hunters simply because they are carrying rifles. The storming of the Capitol is a different context altogether. Are you saying that law enforcement had no reason to believe that the protestors were armed and dangerous?
Your interpretation of my comment is correct. My claim is, indeed, what you have stated: that the possession of a gun makes you by definition not peaceful. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're a peaceful person, there's no reason for you to own a gun. Now, there's nothing wrong with owning a gun per se, but if you do own one, then by definition you are not a peaceful individual. Just own up to the fact that you believe that violence is justified in some situations. By contrast, a peaceful person believes that violence is never the answer to anything. This is not my own point of view, because I do believe that violence is necessary sometimes. I suppose that the only difference between you and me on this point is that I'm simply saying it without trying to sugarcoat it one way or another.
You're being disingenuous, you don't and wouldn't believe me if I said it happened. I can post some photos if that's what you're requesting.
The outcome could have been changed. Here, what this mob was protesting couldn't be changed, only stopped. That's the difference.
The fact that you consider the attempted prevention of the functioning of democracy by attacking the seat of government and a protest at the SCOTUS to be the same thing belies either a willful misunderstanding of the situation based on ideological grounds - or ignorance.
I dont think you're ignorant.
Also: Where did I say you should be exterminated? Or that you arent worth human rights? Oh... I didnt. You're doing that thing where people mischaracterize the argument to try to obtain the moral high ground. You've got the invention of false aggrievement part of modern conservatism down pact, kudos for that.
This does not make me feel good, and I do not feel proud that we've descended this far. I want to check out and forget it, but that just seems irresponsible.
I think we will see more violence. And just like the storming of the Capitol, it will be delusional fascists who believed random lies they heard on social media, attacking people who are just going through the normal motions of American democracy.
Was there or was there not armed groups of people storming the Capitol?
If there was, than I can see very good reasons for that person to be shot. But it was an unarmed woman, standing behind police officers. An entirely different scenario. How does your hypothetical apply to this person?
Well then, there is no reason to go any further than that, is there? I explained why I feel perfectly justified in laughing that argument off. The belief in self defense is not what people are talking about when they describe protestors as peaceful or not, in any context. Protestors also have a legal and moral right to self defense, it turns out.
Yes, I do want photos. I am also very suspicious of it because this has gotten nearly nonstop coverage and not a single source i've looked at has made any mention of this.
Isn't it incredible how the power of adjectives and limited context can make the exact same things seem so wildly different? It's a fun exercise in creativity, and I suppose it helps to alleviate cognitive dissonance.
Lmao. The next time I need to strike a death blow to the heart of a democratic republic, I suppose all I need to do is hire a group of stooges to wear animal skins and parade about the capitol floor for a couple hours. Truly, no free society can survive such an authoritarian deathblow.
Your exaggerations of this group of people has left reality so far behind I can't even pretend not to find it at least somewhat funny at this point. The sad part is, this is basically the consensus.
It's just a goddamn tragedy that the woman at the riot was shot and killed. I sincerely hope they figure out who shot her and take all necessary steps to determine if it was remotely warranted. The videos I've seen dont make it seem like it was.
She was part of a mob assaulting the seat of power of the US government with the express aim of forestalling or preventing the transfer of power. That's damning and disgusting - but she didnt deserve to die for it. No one did.
Unfortunately - her blood is also on the hands of the people that help set her into that situation. That's Cruz. Hawley. Trump, and so on. It's also on the hands of the man who shot her.
They literally achieved their goal for six hours. If they hadn't been cleared out, they'd still be achieving it. No member of the Legislative Branch was able to leave their office or where they were sequestered for that time period. Which means they were functionally hostages to the mob that had taken over. And since their ONLY duty yesterday was certification of the votes of the electors of the 50 states, democracy was held hostage for the exact same amount of time. As I said, the Constitution calls for this to take place on a SPECIFIC day. They caused it to technically take place the next day. It was temporary, but they did EXACTLY what they set out to do.
I'm scanning the first images that pop up and I'm struck by how many of the fascists are posing for pictures and taking pictures of the building they broke into. I have no doubt they are incredibly proud of themselves for overpowering the police--and it speaks to the sheer sense of impunity that made them think they could safely take pictures of themselves proving that they were part of the riot.
They had an absolute blast doing that. I bet they felt like kings. Like I said before about the alt right, much of the appeal is about having fun and feeling powerful and superior.
Remember that picture of that guy stealing an entire podium on his way out? The audacity is incredible.
The cruelty is the point, but now so is "getting away with it", as I posted last night.
The last time that happened, all we got was a compromise healthcare bill based on Romneycare and a bailout bill originally designed by the Bush administration. I think we're going to just have another couple years of Republican-lite policies.
Probably, yeah. I can't see how it will do anything but energize them to do it more. It would be nice to see capital buildings across the country occupied by "fascists". "No justice, no peace" or whatever the young people say.
"Armed supporters of the recently defeated Benjamin Netanyahu stormed the Knesset today, delaying a certification of the election winner."
"Armed supporters of the recently defeated Boris Johnson stormed the Parliament today, delaying a certification of the election winner."
"Armed supporters of Lopez Obrador stormed the Mexican legislature today, delaying a certification of the election winner."
We know what we would call these things if they happened in a country outside of the US. That some apologize for them and want to conflate them with unarmed, Code Pink style protesters delaying a mere hearing is illuminating.
While American conservatives were organizing an anti-democratic action intended to seize power, they squandered their last chance at maintaining, real, legitimate, democratic power. Two very narrow election losses in Georgia. A little more organizing from American conservatives and they could have won those.
But they chose to prioritize action in the Capitol instead. That says everything about where the movement's priorities are right now.
I can't even properly describe my level of disgust right now.
Well frankly - I think this reflects the political disposition of a significant number of people in the country. They'd rather don blackshirts and attack the seat of government than peacefully mobilize in order to win elections.
It makes a certain amount of sense in that the GOP has a real issue with winning elections via the popular vote. If you cant win elections, I guess the next best thing is to subvert democracy.
The irony being, of course, that they're assaulting the beloved Electoral College, which is the only byzantine institution that keeps conservatives in power. Without that, they'd actually need to adjust their politics so they arent so utterly unpopular.
This, at least, is accurate. I'd use the "they were told endless times" line, but it doesn't matter what they are told. People don't leave cults because they are persuaded to. In most cases they have to come to the realization themselves. And if anyone, from Mike Pence to the woman killed yesterday, at this late date, ACTUALLY still believed Donald Trump wouldn't turn on them or betray them, then that is the most concrete proof yet of how deep these people have gotten themselves. Because there isn't a single act he has taken in his entire life that would suggest he would act otherwise.
If you agree, then maybe we can agree on one more thing: I don't think "fascist" is an appropriate term to describe someone who sincerely believes they are defending the sitting President from a case of a stolen election, similar to an actual coup. Hopelessly misguided, naïve, gullible, all of these things are accurate, but a hatred of democracy is not a trait I would ascribe to them.
It's reality.
Nah.
The stolen election myth is a racist lie. Where was the election supposedly stolen? Atlanta, Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee. Let's not play dumb. We all know what that means. It's the exact same reason why people brandished confederate battle flags without an iota of shame at the Capitol assault. These people don't want fair elections. They are fascists.
This is extremely well said. People have confused having a strong opinion on something with virtue. It also grossly downplays two actual virtues -- skepticism and self reflection.
It doesn't. That woman should not have been shot. If you're asking me to condemn the officers involved in that incident, and their police department in general, then you don't have to try very hard. Of course I condemn them.
The entire operative was a disaster. What should have happened is immediate detainment of everyone that breached or attempted to breach into the building. That's it. Now, if things escalate from there, the appropriate response is to deescalate the situation. This shows once again the utter incompetence of almost every officer involved in yesterday's incident. Letting the protesters pass through is not deescalation. Finally, if all attempts at deescalation fail, only then you resort to force, and you do this within reason, i. e., by handcuffing people and placing them into custody, not by shooting an unarmed person.
You're right. I was about to post several photos from different news sites, but after checking to make sure everything was accurate, it turns out that all of the photos are of the Michigan incident. So, no, there are not photos of armed protesters from yesterday's incident in Washington DC.
It was smart of them not to carry weapons to the protest, I'll give them that.