“That’s actually been one of the things that we’ve been struggling with, because it’s a very slow leveling process in the books,” he says. As D&D players will know, gaining ten or 12 levels on the tabletop is a journey that could last weeks, but for a videogame, it’s “not a lot.”
Nevertheless, Larian is making a D&D game. Therefore: “We wanted to stick to it. So we’re figuring out ways of letting you still feel that you’re progressing in a meaningful manner, but in a videogame manner.”
Does this mean showering the player with magical loot and a constant grind to upgrade equipment?
What else could you do to make players feel "progression"? There's only XP levels and equipment.
Magic items in BG feel special and magical, while in most modern games upgrading gear feels as special as taking out the trash or washing dishes. DOS2 is guilty of that as well. You find some "legendary" level 9 sword, and after 30 minutes of playing you have to upgrade it to some level 11 basic item. The compulsive need to put more GAME in the game makes everything feel bland. Sometimes less is more.
I'm sorry, but BG2 showers you with loads of gear.
“That’s actually been one of the things that we’ve been struggling with, because it’s a very slow leveling process in the books,” he says. As D&D players will know, gaining ten or 12 levels on the tabletop is a journey that could last weeks, but for a videogame, it’s “not a lot.”
Nevertheless, Larian is making a D&D game. Therefore: “We wanted to stick to it. So we’re figuring out ways of letting you still feel that you’re progressing in a meaningful manner, but in a videogame manner.”
Does this mean showering the player with magical loot and a constant grind to upgrade equipment?
What else could you do to make players feel "progression"? There's only XP levels and equipment.
Magic items in BG feel special and magical, while in most modern games upgrading gear feels as special as taking out the trash or washing dishes. DOS2 is guilty of that as well. You find some "legendary" level 9 sword, and after 30 minutes of playing you have to upgrade it to some level 11 basic item. The compulsive need to put more GAME in the game makes everything feel bland. Sometimes less is more.
I'm sorry, but BG2 showers you with loads of gear.
Yet it's completely different from games like Dragon Age Inquisition or DOS2 that make you constantly switch out your gear.
In other news: the Flaming Fist gets eradicated, Illithids have now human rights and are a valuable part of the community.
What could be wrong with allowing a species, which MUST devour at least one humanoid brain per fortnight, into an open society? That is, as if people, who give a beep about democracy would destroy it from within & without, never falling for the 'tolerance' nobody asked for. LOL.
I'm afraid it goes the other way around. Illithid are superior species to humans, primes should be concerned not about tolerating them, but being tolerated by them.
I think when Swen says something doesn't work in a video game, it's code for "it doesn't fit the sensibilities of the overwhelming majority of gamers today." Larian is pretty much stuck between a rock and a hard place creating a game that the fans of old-school CRPGs will scrutinize with a microscope, but which is also an AAA(ish) game that needs to sell well to people who have never played or seen a CRPG before and are coming to it with a completely different mindset.
And I hate to say it, but since the latter group likely makes up the majority of their target audience, I'm pretty doubtful that they will create a game with us veterans in mind. Call me a pessimist, but I've seen it happen over and over—it's the Elder Scrolls situation—once big money enters a franchise, the games are going to start reducing in complexity.
Or dare I say they're going to start getting... dumbed... down?
Of course they are getting dumbed down. But if you compare BG2 to to other cRPGs of that era, a lot of the non-combat roleplaying mechanics are very simplified, or even non-existent in BG2. PST, Fallout, Arcanum, even IWD - a linear h&s - have all more character interactivity in dialogues.
I've seen people complaining about skill checks, of all things, in PK, because it stops them from experiencing all game content.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. First off, I would say compared to IWD the character interactivity is *at least* as good, if not better in BG 2.
Sure, IWD has stats, race and class checks. But BG 2 also has some stat checks (not many, but i.e. the Spectator or whether CHARNAME knows what an Illithid is), it has specific stronghold quests for each class and most of the NPC party members have their own sidequests and content.
The other games you list were more or less in the same time period as BG and pioneered other aspects of gameplay than BG 2 did. Specifically, compared with older games in the same lineage BG was absolutely not dumbed down. This includes Goldbox, EotB, etc...
So it looks like they're perfectly aware of the TB/RtwP debacle, as well as questions about the isometric view.
My take is that they want to release (in the future) another detailed video (in their BG gazette aka a Kickstarter update) with an explanation why this or that decision was taken, and this explanation will be used in all media articles about that. It will allow the company to explain their position and probably manage requests.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. First off, I would say compared to IWD the character interactivity is *at least* as good, if not better in BG 2.
Sure, IWD has stats, race and class checks. But BG 2 also has some stat checks (not many, but i.e. the Spectator or whether CHARNAME knows what an Illithid is), it has specific stronghold quests for each class and most of the NPC party members have their own sidequests and content.
The other games you list were more or less in the same time period as BG and pioneered other aspects of gameplay than BG 2 did. Specifically, compared with older games in the same lineage BG was absolutely not dumbed down. This includes Goldbox, EotB, etc...
So what did BG pioneer in the way of non-combat roleplay? Romances? It has limited stat-based interactions, a linear main plot which in BG1 & 2 has only one possible outcome, reputation mechanics (and how is that not dumbing down on alignment?), and Arkanis Gath as a "can't do this" device in BG2, which imo is the absolute worst way to handle plot-relevant factions & npcs in games.
I think the question of whether Baldur's Gate pioneered anything does not relate to what I was trying to say.
Let my try again:
Dumbing down = over-simplifying systems or removing features that are standard, especially in the same RPG lineage (e.g. other D&D party-based games for Baldur's Gate)
Pioneering = adding features that are not yet standard
So Baldur's Gate at release could have been both not dumbed down while also not pioneering anything. That it lacks features you found in Fallout and Arcanum it would have been a sign of dumbing-down only if those features had been genre standard at that time, but in fact, those two games pioneered some of those features.
This being said, I think there are features pioneered by Baldur's Gate, e.g.
Real-time tactical combat with pausing
Improved D&D implementation (i.e. Goldbox had a really weak spell selection at high levels; some spell levels had only a single spell available)
Isometric engine using high-resolution individual background images, i.e. part of why the art of Baldur's Gate is so timeless is that many of the hand-painted backgrounds still hold up. Which is also why it was released on 5 or 6 CDs, which was also pioneering
Some of those (e.g. RtCWP) existed in a few games before, but BG definitely brought it close to mainstream.
On the other hand, I think IWD did not pioneer much, but it was also not dumbed down. It just took an existing engine & created a new game with it, with the focus being a bit more on combat.
And BG 2 improved the recipe by adding some features that had just been pioneered by other games, and adding them on top of BG 1.
@chimaera "You are not imaging things. I do wonder however, how much of it is Larian and how much is WotC, considering the marketing seems to be drumming up for their pnp adventure."
Nope, nope, nope. Larian has already stated in an interview that WotC gave them full freedom and that, "If the game sucks, we only have ourselves to blame." There will be no passing the buck here. Larian has openly accepted full responsibility for the game. Period.
@SkipBittman "As if you wouldn't move the goalposts if they said those exact words."
Yet another personal attack from a pro-"BG3" supporter. You are NOT winning anyone over with conduct like that.
@chimaera I'm not sure how they could pull that off. There is a lot of differences in what happened (and even what certain character were like) between the games and P&P. My biggest fear is this game is just a glorified sequel to P&P modules, and will be used to bury the legacy of the games.
@ThacoBell I personally think Baldur’s Gate 1 & 2 have already solidified their legacy. There is nothing that this new entry could do to them that would affect them negatively in my opinion.
@ThacoBell I personally think Baldur’s Gate 1 & 2 have already solidified their legacy. There is nothing that this new entry could do to them that would affect them negatively in my opinion.
Well yeah, its what you do when a band you likes start releasing bad albums. You ignore them. Ignorance is often a good stance to take with a lot of modern culture.
"The Divinity: Original Sin titles take a lot of inspiration from classic BioWare games, but Larian doesn’t want to simply recreate the gameplay from the first two titles. For one thing, Dungeons & Dragons is currently on its 5th Edition; a far cry from the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons rule set that the first two games used. But Baldur’s Gate is also starting to show its age.
“I’d like to believe we’ve done our best to not just rely on older design choices. We’ve been able to expand the computer RPG genre to try to experiment with new ideas."—Kieron Kelly, Product Manager for Larian Studios
“We love those games, but they were made 20 years ago,” Kelly said. “I’d like to believe we’ve done our best to not just rely on older design choices. We’ve been able to expand the computer RPG genre to try to experiment with new ideas. A lot of innovations have come from different genres. We’re trying not to limit ourselves.”
“[Baldur’s Gate] was revolutionary for its time,” Mearls added. “But if you just copy what it did, it won’t have the same effect. What’s important to me is that it has the same effect on players. They look at this game and go, ‘Wow, this isn’t like any other RPG I’ve played before.’”
“I’m delighted, but don’t mess it up,” Kelly said.
“We’re delighted with Larian, and that this partnership is very much mutual,” Mearls concluded. “We’re glad that we’re working together.”
@ThacoBell I personally think Baldur’s Gate 1 & 2 have already solidified their legacy. There is nothing that this new entry could do to them that would affect them negatively in my opinion.
Well yeah, its what you do when a band you likes start releasing bad albums. You ignore them. Ignorance is often a good stance to take with a lot of modern culture.
this is my approach to things. if there is bad sequel in something i like i ignore it.
escape from money island
most final fantasy games past 10. along with 1,2 and 3.
the Bethesda fallouts [ new vegas is an obsidian game before you say anything]
mass effect Andromeda
dragon age 2 and inquisition
*Controversial opinion time* I actually found Dragon Age 2 to at least be a more interesting a game than Origins, and for a game that had to be delivered in 11 months, which was really incredibly unfair, the product the devs managed to put out was in fact, really impressive, especially given they produced a much better looking game artistically (and it was good looking, when the last game was butt ugly even by the standards of the time it was released). I didn't hate my time with it, although it was obviously a bit janky to say the least when it came to inter-character relationships
Merril: "You smashed the Mirror. I hate you I hate you I hate you"
Next scene, she walks into my bedroom and we have fantasy lesbian sex.
Still a more likeable and relateable character than Morrigan XD
BG2 was created by BioWare many years ago. BGIII is being created by Larian, a completely different team of people, and nowadays. This alone explains why the games will be different. And the interview goes into details about why clinging to the past is not a good recipe.
Comments
I'm sorry, but BG2 showers you with loads of gear.
Yet it's completely different from games like Dragon Age Inquisition or DOS2 that make you constantly switch out your gear.
Can't he's dead. Buried out in some field.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. First off, I would say compared to IWD the character interactivity is *at least* as good, if not better in BG 2.
Sure, IWD has stats, race and class checks. But BG 2 also has some stat checks (not many, but i.e. the Spectator or whether CHARNAME knows what an Illithid is), it has specific stronghold quests for each class and most of the NPC party members have their own sidequests and content.
The other games you list were more or less in the same time period as BG and pioneered other aspects of gameplay than BG 2 did. Specifically, compared with older games in the same lineage BG was absolutely not dumbed down. This includes Goldbox, EotB, etc...
So it looks like they're perfectly aware of the TB/RtwP debacle, as well as questions about the isometric view.
My take is that they want to release (in the future) another detailed video (in their BG gazette aka a Kickstarter update) with an explanation why this or that decision was taken, and this explanation will be used in all media articles about that. It will allow the company to explain their position and probably manage requests.
I think the question of whether Baldur's Gate pioneered anything does not relate to what I was trying to say.
Let my try again:
Dumbing down = over-simplifying systems or removing features that are standard, especially in the same RPG lineage (e.g. other D&D party-based games for Baldur's Gate)
Pioneering = adding features that are not yet standard
So Baldur's Gate at release could have been both not dumbed down while also not pioneering anything. That it lacks features you found in Fallout and Arcanum it would have been a sign of dumbing-down only if those features had been genre standard at that time, but in fact, those two games pioneered some of those features.
This being said, I think there are features pioneered by Baldur's Gate, e.g.
Some of those (e.g. RtCWP) existed in a few games before, but BG definitely brought it close to mainstream.
On the other hand, I think IWD did not pioneer much, but it was also not dumbed down. It just took an existing engine & created a new game with it, with the focus being a bit more on combat.
And BG 2 improved the recipe by adding some features that had just been pioneered by other games, and adding them on top of BG 1.
The Nooberlithid is the final boss of BG3.
Unfair. Opponents are supposed to be beatable!
Nope, nope, nope. Larian has already stated in an interview that WotC gave them full freedom and that, "If the game sucks, we only have ourselves to blame." There will be no passing the buck here. Larian has openly accepted full responsibility for the game. Period.
@SkipBittman "As if you wouldn't move the goalposts if they said those exact words."
Yet another personal attack from a pro-"BG3" supporter. You are NOT winning anyone over with conduct like that.
Well yeah, its what you do when a band you likes start releasing bad albums. You ignore them. Ignorance is often a good stance to take with a lot of modern culture.
"The Divinity: Original Sin titles take a lot of inspiration from classic BioWare games, but Larian doesn’t want to simply recreate the gameplay from the first two titles. For one thing, Dungeons & Dragons is currently on its 5th Edition; a far cry from the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons rule set that the first two games used. But Baldur’s Gate is also starting to show its age.
“I’d like to believe we’ve done our best to not just rely on older design choices. We’ve been able to expand the computer RPG genre to try to experiment with new ideas."—Kieron Kelly, Product Manager for Larian Studios
“We love those games, but they were made 20 years ago,” Kelly said. “I’d like to believe we’ve done our best to not just rely on older design choices. We’ve been able to expand the computer RPG genre to try to experiment with new ideas. A lot of innovations have come from different genres. We’re trying not to limit ourselves.”
“[Baldur’s Gate] was revolutionary for its time,” Mearls added. “But if you just copy what it did, it won’t have the same effect. What’s important to me is that it has the same effect on players. They look at this game and go, ‘Wow, this isn’t like any other RPG I’ve played before.’”
“I’m delighted, but don’t mess it up,” Kelly said.
“We’re delighted with Larian, and that this partnership is very much mutual,” Mearls concluded. “We’re glad that we’re working together.”
More at https://www.tomsguide.com/us/baldurs-gate-iii-e3,news-30345.html
this is my approach to things. if there is bad sequel in something i like i ignore it.
escape from money island
most final fantasy games past 10. along with 1,2 and 3.
the Bethesda fallouts [ new vegas is an obsidian game before you say anything]
mass effect Andromeda
dragon age 2 and inquisition
Merril: "You smashed the Mirror. I hate you I hate you I hate you"
Next scene, she walks into my bedroom and we have fantasy lesbian sex.
Still a more likeable and relateable character than Morrigan XD