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Will be close to pnp??

SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
edited June 8 in Baldur's Gate III
Anyone knows if the game will be close to pnp or if they will gonna try to ""balance"" things, resulting on SCL2 instead of BG 3???? What i expect from BG 3 :.
  • No cooldowns
  • Realistic/pnp like range for bows/spells.
  • Multiple summons limited to your caster level.
  • No slow combat animations like dos2.
  • Spells like wish and stop time
  • Skill checks
  • Ohk spells like pnp.
  • Petrification, stat damage, like on pnp
  • More spells like teleport even if implemented in a limited way with an ser of locations to choose.
  • No artificially inflated enemy hp to create ultra long fights
  • No cooldown
  • Casts/rest like on pnp
  • Mature theme and story.

I honestly dint liked much larien games because they are too much contaminated with modern game design tropes, like longbows with 13m range and homogenization masqueraded as balance. Cooldowns and sponge enemies. I wanna fell like an necromancer raising an undead army, fell like an archer sniping enemies, fell like an develish warlock sending my enemies to the hell and permanently transforming then into a toad(worse fate than death)

Ps : i an on a cellphone. Will edit the formatation and grammar at home.


EDIT : I Own an 175 lb crossbow and have no problem hitting targets much smaller than the average human at 50m and practice it as an hobby. The idea that an archer that trains with his bow as if his life and his family's life depends on it can't hit an elephant sized target at 14m is so silly that remembers me the D3's monks wearing big and sharp axes only to use strong unarmed attacks. If was owlcat games, i wold be probably happy....

Post edited by SorcererV1ct0r on
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Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,058
    Any game that tries to be mature fails. Maturity isn't an objective. The only mature story is that story that is told without worrying about how mature it may or may not be.

    Arcanis
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Any game that tries to be mature fails. Maturity isn't an objective. The only mature story is that story that is told without worrying about how mature it may or may not be.

    I disagree. What is more mature? VtMB or Twilight?

    Raduziel
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,102
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Any game that tries to be mature fails. Maturity isn't an objective. The only mature story is that story that is told without worrying about how mature it may or may not be.

    I disagree. What is more mature? VtMB or Twilight?

    In all fairness, Twilight was targeted at young adults, so was purposely not mature.

    From what we've seen so far from the launch trailer, we can see that it'll have a mature horror aspect. Whether and how it deals with other mature themes is unknown, and even the horror aspect is barely scratched upon. I just hope it has better relationships than give gifts till sex pops out, like the Dragon Age games.

    ThacoBell
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 6,684
    If it is going to be a drop in/out multiplayer game, having a spell that others can troll you with like Time Stop would probably be a no go.

    Besides that, nothing is known except Larian said they have taken some liberties with some of the mechanics like to hit rolls. Which is troublesome, but hopefully rectifiable.

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,102
    deltago wrote: »
    If it is going to be a drop in/out multiplayer game, having a spell that others can troll you with like Time Stop would probably be a no go.

    Besides that, nothing is known except Larian said they have taken some liberties with some of the mechanics like to hit rolls. Which is troublesome, but hopefully rectifiable.

    Depends on exactly how they do it. If it's just pre-approved people that can drop into your game, or at least that's an option, then it could work. Although, most games have shied away from time stop type spells, lately.

    Besides, what qualifies as a troll spell? I mean if somebody dropped into your game and dump a cloud kill spell, depending on your level, you could be just as boned. It's really more behavior rather than spells that equates trolling. Even dropping common spells like fireball could be used to troll. So, I don't think just because a spell has trolling capability, that it should be banned.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    edited June 8
    deltago wrote: »
    If it is going to be a drop in/out multiplayer game, having a spell that others can troll you with like Time Stop would probably be a no go.

    Besides that, nothing is known except Larian said they have taken some liberties with some of the mechanics like to hit rolls. Which is troublesome, but hopefully rectifiable.

    Disable the spell by default on MP servers with an option to turn in for small people/coop servers. NWN1 has time stop and MP servers

    Or make time stop affect an area of effect

    PS : Za Warudo is not an "troll spell", is a amazing spell. Imagine the following, situation, you make 3 enemy group members unconscious and suddenly, you get hit by a delayed blast fireball, is in middle of a incendiary cloud with tentacles grappling you and 5 Efreets appears from nothing trowing fireballs at you.... And the caster is using stoneskin and haste running. See how effective this spell can be?

    For those who doesn't undertsand the Za Warudo reference
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Any game that tries to be mature fails. Maturity isn't an objective. The only mature story is that story that is told without worrying about how mature it may or may not be.

    I disagree. What is more mature? VtMB or Twilight?

    In all fairness, Twilight was targeted at young adults, so was purposely not mature.

    From what we've seen so far from the launch trailer, we can see that it'll have a mature horror aspect. Whether and how it deals with other mature themes is unknown, and even the horror aspect is barely scratched upon. I just hope it has better relationships than give gifts till sex pops out, like the Dragon Age games.

    They can make drop money and then it happens. Just kidding.


    Some of my ideas can sound "unbalanced", but remember, everything that an PC can do, an NPC can do. Is not as if Eldricht Spear on a NPC has less range than the same spell in a PC hands or that the PC is the unique guy on the multiverse that can cast time stop. If every NPC longbow has nerf range and the PC longbow has an historically accurate value, then will be an problem.

  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,599
    Well, games these days have to be dumbed down so kids can grasp it. Hack n Slash! Can't be bothered with skills, traits, reputation, % to hit, miss, things like that. :'(

  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,657
    CEO Sven Vinke in an interview with Venture Beat:
    “We started with a very rigorous port of the ruleset. Then we started looking at what worked and what didn’t work. Because obviously, it’s a video game, so not everything translates very well. We modified where it made sense to start modifying,” Vincke said.

    SorcererV1ct0r
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    edited June 8
    Well, games these days have to be dumbed down so kids can grasp it. Hack n Slash! Can't be bothered with skills, traits, reputation, % to hit, miss, things like that. :'(

    Yes, you can see this by the P:K criticism "mimimi i can't use an sword to kill an swarm of insects, so the game is unbalaced" I enjoy very action focused games from icewind dale to dark souls, but they need an bare minimum of depth and honestly think that consoles are the reason to the "dumb down" of RPG games(and FPS)

    You can see on 90s, while on PC you can play Might & Magic, Wizardry, Ultima, on consoles, they are very lacking. And the PC games that received an console "port", received massive "downgrades" and censorship for eg Ultima VII https://ultima.fandom.com/wiki/SNES-Port_of_Ultima_VII
    In-game
    • The game doesn't support a party systems, leaving player only able to control the Avatar - who is defaulted to their male version and who cannot be named.
    • Both the introduction and ending have been greatly reduced in size, and are limited largely to narrative text rather than animations.
    • The game world is much smaller than the original, and there are far fewer NPCs - all of whom lack daily schedules. Many characters have been replaced or altered drastically to conform to the new story, and the amount of dialogue in the game has been reduced.
    • The combat system is less automated and plays similarly to many action-adventure games. To showcase this aspect of the game, a number of dungeons have been added to the world map and most plot-important items must be retrieved from them.
    • The function of the day and night cycle has changed, with visibility being greatly reduced at night and certain items (such as the bedroll, or magic lantern) being only usable after sundown.
    • The game is divided into outdoor and indoor maps, which prevents the player from using the isometric view to look inside of unentered buildings.
    • The spell-casting system is streamlined such as to exclude reagents and spell purchasing, and there are only sixteen available spells instead of seventy-two. Spells not seen in the original game have also been added, such as Water Walk and Lifting.
    • Conventional ship travel is not available, limiting exploration to islands which may be reached via an item known as the Magic Boat. The Moongates are also completely non-functional throughout the game
    .

    Yes, PC's tends to be far more limited than pnp, but pnp developers don't limit their games to appeal to pc audience. With pc and consoles, something different happens. They appeal to the lowest common denominator.... Owlcat games is an exception. Why? Russian developer. Consoles barely exist on Eastern Europe.
    BillyYank wrote: »
    CEO Sven Vinke in an interview with Venture Beat:
    “We started with a very rigorous port of the ruleset. Then we started looking at what worked and what didn’t work. Because obviously, it’s a video game, so not everything translates very well. We modified where it made sense to start modifying,” Vincke said.

    This game will be more similar to SCL than to BG. Should be called Sword Coast Legends 2....

    PS : Any source of that information?

    EDIT : HEre is an interesting article https://www.tatech.org/baldurs-gate-iii-is-coming-for-pc-and-stadia-when-its-ready-takes-place-after-dds-descent-into-avernus/

    Reforces more that it will be "SCL2"

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,058
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Any game that tries to be mature fails. Maturity isn't an objective. The only mature story is that story that is told without worrying about how mature it may or may not be.

    I disagree. What is more mature? VtMB or Twilight?

    Neither. Twilight was targeted at teens and VtMB (and all of WoD in general) go so far past reality in how society is portrayed that its over-the-top and is almost a parody.

    megamike15DJKajuru
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    One of the modifications: Misses from dice rolls. “The very obvious one would be that you tend to miss a lot when you roll the dice, which is fine when you’re playing on the tabletop, but it’s not so cool when you’re playing a video game,” Vincke said. “We had to have solutions for that.” Source https://www.tatech.org/baldurs-gate-iii-is-coming-for-pc-and-stadia-when-its-ready-takes-place-after-dds-descent-into-avernus/

    Honestly, someone who says something like that did ever played BG2????

    You miss because makes sense. I mean, if you have an sword and the enemy plate armor and is traiend with the armor, you need a lot of skill and lucky to hit on armor gaps and deal any damage against him. This is not hard to understand.

    This game will be SCL2

    Ammar
  • 1varangian1varangian Member Posts: 313
    If you can't miss i.e. dodging and blocking are not part of combat, combat will indeed look very videogamey where people just bash through each others inflated HP pools.

    I like my RPG combat to look real. It makes the world feel more real and supports the narrative. Combat is all about NOT getting hit. Reflecting this is a good thing. I don't mean ultra realistic, but what BG and NWN already have. It's also really easy to read when the characters take damage and when they are in danger in those games.

    It seems Larians vision is something else. And I did hate DOS2 combat which is just that: smashing through huge HP pools after getting through another artificial HP buffer. Combat does not give as much feedback to the player in DOS either, it simply comes down to a HP bar that goes up and down.

    SorcererV1ct0r
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    1varangian wrote: »
    If you can't miss i.e. dodging and blocking are not part of combat, combat will indeed look very videogamey where people just bash through each others inflated HP pools.

    I like my RPG combat to look real. It makes the world feel more real and supports the narrative. Combat is all about NOT getting hit. Reflecting this is a good thing. I don't mean ultra realistic, but what BG and NWN already have. It's also really easy to read when the characters take damage and when they are in danger in those games.

    It seems Larians vision is something else. And I did hate DOS2 combat which is just that: smashing through huge HP pools after getting through another artificial HP buffer. Combat does not give as much feedback to the player in DOS either, it simply comes down to a HP bar that goes up and down.

    Yes, doesn't matter if is unarmed combat, melee with weapons or ranged combat, combat is all about hit and avoiding being hit.

    I din't liked DOS2 combat too. Not only due the lack of feedback and smashing huge inflated hp bars but because :
    1. Armor fells useless
    2. Ranged weapons are useless too. Come on, 13m range of an bow?
    3. Cooldowns
    4. Limited to one summon
    5. Wizardry 8 style slow animations
    6. And can continue listing

    Talking about spells, on D&D, spells fells like supernatural powers. Finger of the Death fells like an ability to purge the life force from someone elses and that can be resisted with lucky and "fortitude", not as just an arbitrary game mechanic, while on DOS2, they don't fell like supernatural powers.

    And are too dissociated from the "narrative", i mean, Dragon Age Origins blood magic works in lore, in cutscenes and in game in a consistent way. Having an mage able to do X on a cutscene but unable to do X on gameplay is silly IMO

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,314
    I really hope they'll implement a Core Rules difficulty with all the dice rolling back in.

    SorcererV1ct0r
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    mlnevese wrote: »
    I really hope th iey'll implement a Core Rules difficulty with all the dice rolling back in.

    Yes, let players choose between "alternative balanced rules" or "true 5e rules".

    Or at least make an moddable game, so players can fix the game.


    Changing one aspect of the rules will result in a chain reaction easily.

    Increasing the hit chance means that you need more HP or the combat will end quickly. Then you need more and more healing available because everyone has a lot of HP and get hurt with every hit. Every weapon swing hits the gap of enemy armor and no armor can deflect an arrow, regardless of the angle, distance and type of arrow. No archer misses, doesn't matter the windage, distance, moving target, etc, so ranges and damages needs to be redone. Now OHK spells like Wail of the Banshee are too strong since everyone has 50 hit dice of HP. Now you need to balance the magic system or have spells like Finger of Death being the best spells in the game and weak skeletons since always hit can destroy everything so summoning/creating undead needs to be balanced. Now the entire magical system needs to be "rebalanced" and.... The game is SCL2 with BG3 name.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,474
    edited June 10
    I think that to be able to evaluate the decision about the "missing" mechanic, we have to first play it and see how it plays. No matter what the opinion about "core rules", "DnD rules" is, the game should be "ok", fun/good to play. There's a chance they have a good reason for that decision, considering they've been developing the game for quite some time, and tried different mechanics, and decided it didn't work.

    My own feeling is that they are trying to implement the tabletop experience in a video game keeping the player agency and creativity:



    Baldur’s Gate 3 Interview With Larian And Wizards Of The Coast

    Catching up with Larian Studios Founder Sven Vincke and Mike Mearls of Wizards of the Coast and Creative Director of Dungeons & Dragons, we had a few burning questions in mind in the wake of the news that Larian Studios are working on Baldur’s Gate 3. The studio is well known for its Divinity Original Sin series, and we wanted to find out exactly how this whole thing fell into motion. It was Sven Vincke who originally approached Mike Mearls with the interest of developing BG3, but as we found out in this interview, a lot went into this collaboration.

    Baldur’s Gate 3 Interview With Larian And Wizards Of The Coast
    We knew fans would be eager to know how previous games would impact Baldur’s Gate 3, whether it would continue the story or use different time frames like their Divinity games. Vincke explained that there have been “several instalments of Baldur’s Gate involving the Forgotten Realm’s lore so you have Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2, as well as the tabletop campaigns”, with the newest one called called Descent into Avernus releasing on September 17th. Baldur’s Gate 3 will take place after these events “[meaning] you are going to see plenty of references to things that happened in city in the past” as well as seeing settings from BG1 was based on the Forgotten Realms, along with references to events that happened in the new campaign Descent into Avernus.

    Vincke assures that this will be a new story for fans to enjoy, with “several characters from the campaign” so you will see some familiar faces if you’re fan of the series. We had a number of questions pertaining how their experience with Divinity would influence their development with Baldur’s Gate 3 as well further details features, multiplayer and more.

    FL: What rule set will you be using?

    Vincke: Based on the 5th Edition because we ported all the rules to the computer game and looked at what worked and what didn’t work. There are somethings that don’t work for video games. But there is also the aspect if you’re playing tabletop, the game master and imaginations is a large part of it. There are things that are just not described in the rule set that you could do and we obviously have to make it work inside of the video game, that is something that we have to add on top of it.

    FL: Are you planning to add anything that you had done with Divinity to that, or will it be straight Dungeons and Dragons?

    Vincke: No, if you are in combat you say “I take the table and I throw it at him” right so that is something that we have to describe in the video game also, that’s an interaction with the environment, things like that you will see we have gone quite far.

    Mearls: We don’t have specific rules for all those interactions, its up to the game master to extend those rules.

    FL: How linear are you planning on making it?

    Vincke: It is similar to the original Baldur’s Gate, and especially in Baldur’s Gate 2 it has a really cool mechanic that I really liked and I referenced a lot throughout Divinity Original Sin to the team where it had earn I think it was 20,000 gold to be able to take a ship, that was the type of freedom that was present there which we offered in DOS and you will see in BG3.

    FL: Can you create a save based on the actions based on your actions in the previous games Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2?

    Vincke: No, as they are closed chapters.

    Will BG3 have multiplayer?

    Vincke: From DOS1 to DOS2 you saw a lot of change how we handled multiplayer. So from DOS2 to BG3 you will see an evolution on how we handle it. The party is a very big focus this time, the slogan of the game is “gather your party”. BG2 was very party focused, they had a lot of mechanics for that time, how they handled the party. So expect innovation in that direction. Yes it will have co-operative multiplayer.

    We did asked more specifics on the mechanics of parties and how many would in a party but Vincke was not willing to share exact details at this stage.

    FL: What engine are you using, is it the same as DOS2?

    Vincke: It’s the next generation of our own engine, Dragon Commander was 1.0, DOS1 was 2.0, DOS2 was 3.0 and Definitive Edition was 3.5. Now we are heading to 4.0, a completely new shift, we’ve upgraded the engine, there’s a lot tech that has been developed for quite some time.

    FL: In regards to the artstyle of the game is it going to be similar to Divinity or are you guys going in a different direction?

    Vincke: You’ve seen the teaser trailer? That sets the tone.

    FL: In terms of camera angles, are you going to use the top down isometric view or go with the approach that you had with the definite edition of DOS1?

    Vincke:[Laughs]You’ll see.

    FL: How long can we expect the game to be in terms of gameplay?

    Vincke: I expect players to spends 100 hours, if they go through everything. We’re making it a more a length to what we had in DOS2, its hard to tell until everything is done but I would say approximately 100 hours.

    FL: Are you going to keep the traditional D&D classes, will you maintain this or expand upon it?

    Vincke: Yes. If you know D&D 5th Edition and start Baldur’s Gate 3, you will know what to do.

    FL: Will you be able to take sub-classes like in other D&D games?

    Vincke: Yes you will.

    FL: Will you have any famous D&D players appear as Easter eggs in the game?

    Vincke: No comment.

    FL: This is a hugely anticipated sequel, how much pressure is that and how do you deal with that?

    Vincke: Well there is obviously a lot of expectations, people have been waiting for this game for a very long time. We try not to think of the pressure, we focus on making a good of a game as we can, our team is very very talented. We have Dungeons & Dragons we have Wizard of the Coast helping us, the collaboration is very close, we also have the funding to do this also without the publisher pressure as we are doing it ourselves. We have all the ingredients to make a really good RPG, we could still fuck it up, but there’s a really big drive and passion within the team to make it really good, more so than what we saw with DOS2. For a lot of the members of our team, their first RPG was Baldur’s Gate. There are a lot of tabletop sessions going on continuously in the offices and the different studios, so there is a lot of drive in this.

    This is what we’re trying to do with BG3, the video game is the game master we’re trying to give you as much possibility of doing things just like you would be able to in a tabletop, that’s literally the drive behind what we do.

    FL: In Divinity Original Sin you added a Dungeon Master mode, are you going to add something similar to that?

    Vincke: No comment.

    FL: Are you going to have modding tools?

    Vincke: No comment.

    FL: What platforms will it be released on?

    Vincke: PC and Stadia.

    So far PC and Stadia are the only platforms announced for Baldur’s Gate 3, Larian were unable to comment on whether it will be open to further platform in future.

    FL: What is your publishing time frame?

    Vincke: We have a time frame we’re looking at, we know people have been waiting on this game for sometime, they will probably will wait a bit longer. We need to get it right, we won’t release it if it’s not right. This is a game we want to play ourselves also, so it’s something we’ve been waiting for ourselves for a long time. We are going to try really deliver on it, we’ll see how much time it takes. We announce now because we to want to talk with the community, really understand what they are looking for, match it against our vision of what we’re doing, then together evolve.

    FL: Are you going to do an early access?

    Vincke: What we are not doing is a Kickstarter. We will announce when the time is right.

    FL: How do you guys know that Larian was the right studio?

    Mearls: I was involved in the business side of things, once the deal was signed. It was funny because when I first was told “oh we’re working with Larian” I was running many DD campaigns, there was one DD campaign I was running, I asked people at the table if they were to make Baldur’s Gate 3 who would you want to make it? They all answered Larian. So that told me we were on the right track. I remember when we first started working together, started collaborating, it was just a natural thing. On a creative level I think we have very similar attitudes towards roleplaying games whether they be tabletop or digital computer RPG, and I think we also have a similar sense in idea of developing the community. Roleplaying gamers, it’s funny, we each tell our own story but I think like the role of telling our own stories together, that there just a natural sense of community. That’s what happens when you bring people together in a tabletop, or even in a video game, the idea of sharing what you’ve done or playing co-op. So I think its kind of reflected in how we work together, it feels like almost this adventuring party getting together and plotting out the next great D&D story.

    One of our first meetings we just laid down a map of the Sword’s Coast in Baldur’s Gate, “what if we went here? What if we went to this location?” It just felt like a natural design jam, it just felt like the D&D team, it didn’t feel like outsiders coming in, it just felt natural. There’s stuff mechanically where we were thinking of making a change to one of classes of the tabletop game, so I sent email over to your side [Larian], Vicke said “oh we have something very similar, we’re already thinking of implementing”. Theres even some part we were working on in terms of the lore, that’s going to be coming back from the game to the sort of core of D&D, that might influence future tabletop stories. It feels very collaborative, if this wasn’t part of my career it would be something I would be dying to know about, it feels like a very natural partnership.

    Divinity Original Sin has been spiritual successor of Baldur’s Gate, it has the same agency, you can do so many things in different ways. From talking with both Larian studios and Wizards of the Coast, this seems to be a match made in heaven. Baldur’s Gate 3 appears to be in very good hands, not only taking inspiration from the previous titles, but adding their own uniqueness with their story as they plan together the next great adventure.

    https://fextralife.com/baldurs-gate-3-interview-with-larian-and-wizards-of-the-coast/

    Davseth
  • 1varangian1varangian Member Posts: 313
    I think people are just scared after Sword Coast Legends turned 5e into MMO-Diablo-lite. I know I am. It ruined the game for me when all I wanted was a digital 5e D&D game.

    But now speculating about what Larian will do is pointless. We just need to chill until they actually show the game.

    jonesr65shabadooZaxares
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    edited June 10
    JuliusBorisov, what game changed the rules and did an good job? Missing is an part of RPG's. When you try remove it, the same thing that happened to MOrrowint to Oblivion will happens. They will need to re write the combat and increase enemy HP, generating long boring fights... Even NWN could be better if followed more the pnp rules aka allowing arcane archers to imbue less resisted elements instead of only fire, giving +caster level to pale master. You see when nwnEE got announced, i registered here and most people requests that i saw was to make the nwn more pnp like.

    On nwn2, what are the most popular mods? Make warlock more pnp like, make spells more pnp like, etc.

    When someone plays an F1 game, the gamer expects that the game will follow the F1 rules. If you wanna make an racing game that will not follow F1 rules, why call it an F1 game in the first place?

    And if they say that "doesnt work on a video game", i an forced to assume that they not only din't played BG1/2, nwn,iwd,etc but they din't played other old school RPG's because missing is a crutial part of Daggerfall, Might & Magic, Wizardry...

    Post edited by SorcererV1ct0r on
    Ludwig_II
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 903
    With the latest interviews/news they have now floated the following systems as possibly unsuitable/not optimal for video games:
    • Missing (at least missing often)
    • Spell slots
    • Frequency of level ups/maximum levels

    For the level ups they said that they will stick with it as per D&D, but add something other, i.e. "ways of letting you still feel that you’re progressing in a meaningful manner, but in a videogame manner".

    Make of that what you will, but my first (very early impression) is that we should expect significant deviations from P&P.

    SorcererV1ct0r
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    edited June 12
    Ammar wrote: »
    With the latest interviews/news they have now floated the following systems as possibly unsuitable/not optimal for video games:
    • Missing (at least missing often)
    • Spell slots
    • Frequency of level ups/maximum levels

    For the level ups they said that they will stick with it as per D&D, but add something other, i.e. "ways of letting you still feel that you’re progressing in a meaningful manner, but in a videogame manner".

    Make of that what you will, but my first (very early impression) is that we should expect significant deviations from P&P.

    OMG. Each day, i lost more hope. If missing(at least often) is removed, if spell slots and level ups are changed, then WHAT FROM D&D THEY WILL MAINTAIN? Will be an DOS2/SCL with BG skin?

    About missing - to remove missing, you need to re write everything, including hwo bows, feats and magic works.

    About spell slots, is an better system than mana bar. Even dark souls uses it, except dks 3(worst one)

    About the frequency of lv up, on D&D is simple.

    LV 1 = Close to an commoner
    LV 20 = Clood to godhood.

    I an soloing IWD2 and honestly, level up realtive quickly. My lv 14 sorcerer can create shadowish cyclops from nothing and do all type of cool stuff. Leveling is one of the best aspects of this "old school rpgs". And to balance things, enemies are powerful too.
    b8z4h1xjrx331.png
    4jzb7ndnrx331.png

    If the player level up frequently, then will be an generic "everyone at max level but max level means nothing" mmo style. I don't wanna it in any cRPG BTW

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    1varangian wrote: »
    It all sounds more and more like Swen and Larian are really fixated on what's "good" in a video game. The stuff that's in DOS2.

    - lots of leveling
    - constant upgrading of equipment
    - HP based combat where everyone hits all the time and the focus is more on clever ability use and interacting with environment
    - cooldowns for abilities rather than slots e.g. X per rest abilities

    I disagree with basically all of it. I find even BG's 2nd edition rules much more fun than DOS2.

    Yes, if the game is named "divinity - in forgotten realms", or "sword coast legends 2", nobody will complain. But why call it Baldur's Gate 3 when it have more from DOS2 than from BG1/2?

    I know, some people liked both, BG and DOS, but honestly, i found DOS too contamined with the worst from modern gaming design.

    DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS’ LEVELING SYSTEM IS TOO SLOW FOR BALDUR’S GATE 3
    https://pcfiend.com/2019/06/12/dungeons-and-dragons-leveling-system-is-too-slow-for-baldurs-gate-3/

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,474
    1varangian wrote: »
    It all sounds more and more like Swen and Larian are really fixated on what's "good" in a video game. The stuff that's in DOS2.

    - lots of leveling
    - constant upgrading of equipment
    - HP based combat where everyone hits all the time and the focus is more on clever ability use and interacting with environment rather than the skill/power level of the characters themselves
    - cooldowns for abilities rather than slots e.g. X per rest abilities

    I disagree with basically all of it. I find even BG's 2nd edition rules much more fun than DOS2.

    I won't discuss DOS here, but where are these features mentioned in terms of BGIII?



    There Mike Mearls mentions Neverwinter MMO as a contrast to BGIII. While the former uses a MMO system with cooldown with some inspirations from the tabletop ruleset, BGIII will use the tabletop ruleset as a starting point.

  • 1varangian1varangian Member Posts: 313
    Understanding what the developer thinks "works in a videogame", based on BG3 interviews and having played the DOS games, gives an idea what kind of game they are working towards. They obviously think DOS systems are good or best in a video game because it's their own creation.

    How much 5e D&D and BG3 is influenced by that remains to be seen.

    kanisatharealshemp
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    edited June 12
    Julius, Might & Magic is clearly inspired by D&D in some aspects, but doesn't follow the rules and is an amazing game. Same with certain animes like Bastard and Overlord. Using the rules as "inspiration" or "starting point" can lead to the same outcome of neverwinter mmo/sword coast legends if they change too much.

    Anyway, why RPC is so popular for nwn? Maybe because people wanna play as necromancers controlling undead armies, something that is not possible due the "only one summon" limitation. There are a lot of things that if you alter, you can "kill". Monks having an "outsider" template at lv 20 on nwn-prc is cooler than they only having glowing eyes on nwn1. In fact, there are items on hotu that requires that you be an outsider but you can't use due the lack of template.

    That is the main problem of alternating rules. Is not like they are implementing classes like Dragon Disciple(for bg/iwd - the class is just an prestige class from newer editions) or new homebrew races that you can not play if you don't like. Nor optional abilities, like allow Warlocks replacing his Eldricht Blast damage type to fire, electricity, cold, etc depending theyr patron teachings. That will make each warlock more unique and adds to the gameplay. Not remove. Alterations almost always end up killing certain "class fantasies" and possibilities.

    And for then for eg, dices doesn't work on a video game(can name tons of games that works), leveling is too slow( https://pcfiend.com/2019/06/12/dungeons-and-dragons-leveling-system-is-too-slow-for-baldurs-gate-3/ ), so, if you level up faster, how each level can be impactfull?

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,474
    I think there're many ways to create a good RPG, and a good DnD RPG. From what I'm reading, they're trying to implement the 5E as best as possible to provide a good tabletop experience but in a videogame. They're also working with WotC very closely so every rule change/tweak gets feedback from the owners of the DnD brand.

    In a way, they try to find their own implementation of DnD in a modern AAA RPG, without using mechanics from BG 1&2. You can have different views on this matter, but I personally trust them.

    It won't be DOS, as Swen has mentioned the game will have classes. And I believe they'll implement summons according to DnD, without the "only one summon" per character limitation of DOS.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    edited June 13
    My fear is that there are a lot of aspects of modern RPG design that i particularly don't like. After SCL, every BG/D&D fan fears that they will try modernize the game and his comments doesn't help either.

    About the neverwinter mmo, i think that an good comparation is Dungeons & Dragons Online. The game has mmo mechanics such as cooldowns, and honestly, when i tried to play like BG/IWD with an sorcerer, i got bored pretty quickly. When i decided to play as an warlock like the game was an FPS, i had an interesting experience. Since my main skill is eldricht blast, in first person and most of my spells are summons/buffs/cc(Except tentacles, tentacles are must have for WLK), cooldown and the hp inflation doesn't affect me much. Bosses that i could never defeat as sorc, i could easily defeat in higher difficulty as WLK, on my first try https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1767000045

    Why? Because an zero cost spell in a world where everyone has inflated hp is ridiculous amazing. Not all "alterations" are bad either. As i've mentioned, your Patron that teaches you affecting the type of damage that your Eldricht Blast deals is an amazing idea of then. But the fact is, they tried to make the game more balanced and inflated things and the result is an game with an worse balance and worse in depth and freedom. This doesn't means that doesn't worth an try. And all good alterations that they did, is much more from giving more options to the player instead of restricting and handholding.


    Is sad how most modern RPG's tends to offer way less options, cool weapons, skills, cool enemies to fight, etc than 90s RPG's Implement the core rule, then think in how to give more cool stuff to players to do.

    Nobody criticized BeamDog when they created Dragon Disciple, that works much more like an homebrew class instead of 3e's prestige class. Why? IS one more OPTION that adds to the game. If instead of implementing an new class, the sorcerer class got replaced completely, then will be an problem. And is not only Sword Coast Legends that makes people fear the BG future. Diablo 3, Sacred 3, Dungeon Siege 3, dark souls 3, fable 3(...) now i understand why valve don' launch the hl3 A lot of relative modern games are awful and offers less things than his predecessors. That is sad.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,474
    You mention Sword Coast Legends a bit too often, I think. There's 0 ground to think Larian will create Sword Coast Legends 2, considering the DOS games are nothing like that. This is my personal opinion, of course.

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,759
    There will be changes from the pnp, there is no single slight of doubt to that. In one interviews the devs were mentioning changes to dice rolls, for example. Likewise, like BG1 and BG2 I don't expect things like spell components being implemented in the game.

    The good thing about Baldur's Gate or infinity engine games in general is that I don't need to be DnD nerd to enjoy the games. Strict implementation of PnP rules could change that.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,139
    edited June 13
    You mention Sword Coast Legends a bit too often, I think. There's 0 ground to think Larian will create Sword Coast Legends 2, considering the DOS games are nothing like that. This is my personal opinion, of course.

    DOS has nothing to do with BG/IWD too. And SCL/DOS has a lot of modern game deisign "tropes" that i particularly hate. I purchased DOS2 by Shadiversity(youtuber) recommendation and din't liked. Din't understood why some people see similarities between this two games. When they are extremely different games. Pathfinder Kingmaker yes, is very similar to old RPG's. But dos2?
    • Uses cooldownst
    • Uses ultra limited range for longbows, aka 13m(it kills my immersion. How i an supposed to feel like i an an might archer while on IRL i can hit targets dozens of time far way?)
    • Limits you to only 1 summon(it kills the class fantasy of necromancer) and you can't even have an cool minion like an undead dragon.
    • Has an turn based combat instead of RtWP
    • Enemies can soak a lot of damage needing to be on fire for 4 turns, then impaled into the head 20 times to die
    • But you never miss/evade/deflect
    • The combat is slower than Wizardry 8. An turn can take more than an minute while on BG, an turn takes 6 seconds
    • No epic skills for the player use. No time stop, finger of death, no wish...
    • No enemies that use epic skills against the player. Fight the minotaurs on M&M that can OHK me and an "boss" that can one hit eradicate me(eradication is death + lost of corpse, an far worst fate)
    • A lot of elemental interactions with the scenario
    • A lot of gimmicky / puzzle like combat
    • The game is too much gear dependent
    • Constant upgrade your gear makes the magical gear that you got fells worthless
    • Leveling fells much less impacting. I soloed IWD with an DD, from lv 1 to 20, my char goes from running from goblins that i failed to "charm" to shaping the reality with wish, summoning an Efreet army that i don't need to carry about colateral damage due my immunity and doing all types of cool stuff
    • (...)

    I an not saying that DOS2 is bad, only that is a good puzzle/tactical game, but offers far less immersion than old school RPG's and even modern games such as Pathfinder Kingmaker and PoE 2. I value a lot immersion, freedom to build your character, skills that looks like skills that can use instead of just gaming mechanics and character progression.

    If you go play DOS 2 expecting to solve some puzzle based combat with elemental interactions, you will get an good time. If you wanna feel like you are an might character in another world fighting migth creatures, pass it. And Baldur's Gate main appeal is the second case. In can be fully immersed on my "baalspawn character" on BG.

    kanisatha
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