Would you like to reintroduce the XP cap in Shadows of Amn before starting Throne of Bhaal?
_Connacht_
Member Posts: 169
In Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, the XP cap was originally set to 2 950 000 XP and players who completed every quest usually reached that point right before the final battle.
When Throne of Bhaal was released, a new cap of 8 000 000 XP was introduced, in order to improve characters to epic levels, summon planetars, get high level abilities, face new powerful enemies and wear bronze pantalettes. However, this increased cap was already effective while playing Shadows of Amn, meaning that if you played only the original content you could reach Irenicus while having more than 3 000 000 XP for Charname, possibly unlocking HLAs for the final battle.
This was probably due to the fact that players could also optionally reach the Watcher's Keep in the base game if they wanted, getting an additional huge amount of experience that otherwise would have been wasted (but in turn, along with the new items, it completely unbalanced the whole game as it was available since chapter 2, even reaching trivial outcomes when a cleric or paladin could farm Bodhi's lair in 5 minutes by simply activating turn undead).
This is in contrast with how, for example, Siege of Dragonspear manages the new XP cap: the previous one is still in action while you play the base game, but it raises once you get to the expansion with new content and new areas.
So, would you like to reintroduce the original XP cap in Shadows of Amn, and only get the higher cap when in fact you start Throne of Bhaal (a solution similar to Siege of Dragonspear)? Or are you satisfied with the current situation? Alternatively, would you even like, instead, a slightly higher cap in SoA, i.e. 3 000 000 or 3 500 000 XP, before starting ToB?
When Throne of Bhaal was released, a new cap of 8 000 000 XP was introduced, in order to improve characters to epic levels, summon planetars, get high level abilities, face new powerful enemies and wear bronze pantalettes. However, this increased cap was already effective while playing Shadows of Amn, meaning that if you played only the original content you could reach Irenicus while having more than 3 000 000 XP for Charname, possibly unlocking HLAs for the final battle.
This was probably due to the fact that players could also optionally reach the Watcher's Keep in the base game if they wanted, getting an additional huge amount of experience that otherwise would have been wasted (but in turn, along with the new items, it completely unbalanced the whole game as it was available since chapter 2, even reaching trivial outcomes when a cleric or paladin could farm Bodhi's lair in 5 minutes by simply activating turn undead).
This is in contrast with how, for example, Siege of Dragonspear manages the new XP cap: the previous one is still in action while you play the base game, but it raises once you get to the expansion with new content and new areas.
So, would you like to reintroduce the original XP cap in Shadows of Amn, and only get the higher cap when in fact you start Throne of Bhaal (a solution similar to Siege of Dragonspear)? Or are you satisfied with the current situation? Alternatively, would you even like, instead, a slightly higher cap in SoA, i.e. 3 000 000 or 3 500 000 XP, before starting ToB?
- Would you like to reintroduce the XP cap in Shadows of Amn before starting Throne of Bhaal?33 votes
- Yes, limit it to 2950000 XP as it was in the original SoA, only raise to 8000000 when you start ToB3.03%
- No, leave the 8000000 XP limit introduced with ToB and get HLAs earlier87.88%
- Have a slightly higher XP limit than 2950000 in SoA but not too much9.09%
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Comments
maybe just because the first time i reached the needed xp and was expecting to finally be able to cast those very high level spells and i did hit the cap, without knowing its existence, i found the thing so annoying.
also i find caps quite artificial and not natural in general, even the 8M xp one.
if you run a small party you gain level faster, but you have less firepower (party apr) compared to a full party, so imho there is anyway a balance.
also with the mods i usually play with and for some runs the soa late game would become incredibly hard.
to beat tactics mod improved irenicus in hell without hla and lev 9 spells for a solo mage or sorcerer would be borderline to impossible.
and to have him struggle so much in that last soa battle and then at the beginning of tob becoming 10x his previous power would break my immersion.
i feel more problems, having a very high level solo charname, in tob. and often i quit playing him because he can easily win almost every battle, taking down foe like draconis in few rounds without even getting scratched.
i find that mods that lower the rate the party gets XP are a much better solution then capping xp for those runs where the power ramp is too steep, the player can tune quite well the balance between the party and the enemies, given his party composition and more or less completionist style, without those artificial steps like the transition from soa to tob in a sod like mode or without completely loosing legittimate xp like with a simple cap.
but in the end the introduction of a cap would not cause me any problem, as i would use a cap remover mod and if needed a mod to reduce the xp.
while who like the cap introduction has no mean to do it in the game like it is now.
but maybe a mod for it can be created by some modder if enough players vote for the cap introduction.
8 million was never a problem, at least if you're playing with a 6 member party- parties in vanilla TOB could never really reach the cap. Even with SoD, I think you still need some mods to provide enough XP to reach 8 million in a 6 member party. But you absolutely could hit 2.95 million xp in SoA, and it made the last parts of the game feel a little more unfulfilling.
it was done as an experiment fighting for RL hours the WK boss, having great care to not damage him and killing the ever spawning helpers, was hard (as i did chose to not force savegames fake exiting the area) and a single error could be the end of hours of battle, and fun.
but yep, in a normal way it is impossible with a full party that does not use my special power leveling strategy
I always use a cap remover for it, i can't stand reaching the cap in the first quarter of my run.
A completist run of SoA without Watcher's Keep can get a full party to around 4 million XP, or more if you abuse scribing XP and then recruit a party to take advantage of the catch-up XP mechanic. The 2.95 million cap would reliably cut off experience to more than just the last fifth of SoA. If you want to go that way, you're better off leaving the cap as it is and just not hitting the levelup button once a character reaches 3 million total XP.
are you running mods? or are you playing the vanillas where you gain a +10% bonus from everything expect quest XP?
because for me i always start SoA with 161 000 xp per character, and i scribe every scroll i find ( dont use any xp exploits ) and i even finish off all the cowled wizards and kill off perhaps 100 or so amnish guards, and do EVERY quest ( except for perhaps joinable team mate quests ) and at best i hit around..... 3.7 milllion or so xp per character in SoA ( without watcher's keep ) and when it comes time to ToB my absolute best without excessive grinding was somehow 7.2 million xp per character ( usually im lucky to even hit 7 million per character ) - and this is just before chapter 10 starts in ToB
Also, that was the Final Save totals I reported - the very end of the game.
[Edit note: that run did have extra monsters by virtue of being on Insane difficulty. No extra XP for each monster, but more of them in a number of places.]
I'm running mods now, but no big quest mods - just the little Unfinished Business quests and some extra monsters from SCS. The current run is at about 2.3 million average XP in the party - and they haven't even gone to Spellhold yet, or visited several of the major chapter 2 quest areas. If I finished off those quests, I'd be on the brink of HLAs entering Spellhold, which is just ridiculous.
The key to that? Don't recruit the party right away. Instead, shoplift the scrolls and scribe your way to a million XP on the protagonist. Then, recruit the party and start playing normally - they all get catch-up experience, which means they start at a million too.
even if my characters have HLA in SoA i just dont use them, except for UAI for thieves just out of convenience ( and that is usually just for weapons )
thankfully as well, if you are truly a stickler for not going pass the 3 million xp mark, you dont have to worry about losing HLA slots upon multiple level ups because you can now choose multiple abilities at a time if need be
For BG1:
89 k, 161 k or 500 k
For SoD:
161 k, 500 k or 2.900 k (old BG2 cap?)
For BG2:
2.900 k, 8.000 k or no cap
ToB:
2.900 k, 8.000 k or no cap
The idea wasn’t implemented (off course), but I am still hoping...
Personally I like to disable the XP cap when ever I can. I am playing on iOS, so an in game toggle function would be nice - it would save me the trouble of re modding the game when new updates arrive...
It does not make that much of a difference when playing a party of six, but sometimes I like doing solo/duo/trio runs wither alone or with RL friends. And the XP cap is annoying.
So I voted to leave it at 8mil.
On the other hand certain classes have HLAs so powerful that the game basically ends at this point. A specialist mage with Improved Alacrity and Project Image is a good example.
My personal favourite class for the transition to HLAs is the thief. Some massive power gaming bumps in effectiveness, some awesome role playing potential, the chance to use all that epic loot overflowing your bag of holding, and even a couple of surprises like the first time your time stop trap hits certain late-game enemies.
the reason?
lev 7 fighter has 14 thac0 and 7d10 hp, 38.5 on average.
lev 17 fighter has 4 thac0 and 9d10+24 hp, 73.5 on average.
every dual from lev 7 fighter that is not dual into cleric will be far from perfect as fighter in late soa and the whole tob, even a dual into mage will use its mage's thac0 from lev 22 mage, for dual into rogues an druids it happens even earlier. cleric can fix the thac0 and to some extent the hp with his self buffs, but is the only class that can do it without completely blocking the spell casting.
on this i agree, the mage is a very powerful class in end game, and even without improved alacrity would continue to be so. CC, the trigger and sequencers are a viable alternative to unleash many spells/round.
what makes the mage and sorcerer super powerful at high level is a combination of 3 different factors.
1. PI, that let a mage spend his whole spell book, for a sorcerer use all the spells he knows, that is even more powerful as different PI can cover different roles inside a single day (given spell memorization).
2. improved alacrity, the only HLA related factor.
3. the AoP and RoV that cutting the casting time let really shine the previous factors.
i think that to avoid to kill the game a player has to use some self restrain, the party mage or sorcerer can be used to bomb the enemies, lowering their MR and ST and spamming damaging, killing or disabling spells, a barrage of MM and skull traps, finger of death or enough flash to stone or feeblemind, to win the battle on his own.
but he can also be used to buff the other toons (haste and elemental protection spells), take down the enemy defenses (breach, spellstrike, dispel magic or whatever), can be the party's turbo charger instead of the party's gun.
the player can also avoid the use of PI, even if this don't really cut his power, just compell the party to more rests, and avoid the use of the robe and amulet, thing that makes the improved alacrity way less effective.
or he can enjoy the power of his archmage and be happy.
after all HLA share a caracteristic of many of other things of this game. there are tactics and spell combinations that at every level make the game quite easy, is completely up to the player to use them or not depending on his game settings and the level of challenge he want.
i make only few examples:
1. shield of balduran against the beholders
2. green scrolls against undeads
3. bombing from the fog of war enemies that are not scripted to react
4. using metagame knowledge to set traps
5. spamming multiple webs and other spells
i could continue as the examples are many, but i think that my point is clear enough with the given ones.
and i am happy and fine with this game characteristic, as i am fine with the fact that a character can have completely different hp pools depending on stats and using the hp dice roll on leveling up or having it maxed.
i love the fact that different players can play in completely different environments with completely different levels of challenge depending on their own choices, and modding or not modding the game is a part of it.
a player start to do his choices at the very moment he start a game, spending more or less time to roll the stats and minmaxing or not them, and continue to choose up to the very end.
i highly value the freedom of the players to play the game as they like, the way that bring them fun, and as there are both mods to lower the rate the party gets xp and the choice to not level up in soa, doing it in tob without wasting xp, like a cap would cause, i think that the HLA, even the most powerful ones, after all are not a problem that has to be fixed, the player that likes to seek easy routes would have plenty of them even with a soa cap, and the one that loves challenge can have it right now, both if he uses the HLA and chose hard settings (modded game, low stats and hp pool, no reload, LOB mode) or if he delay leveling until tob is reached.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/78441/shadows-of-amn-xp-cap
A bigger problem than the extra levels is getting HLAs designed for ToB in SoA. They come a bit early anyway for some classes - i.e. there is a severe problem with mages getting HLAs which are nominally level 10 spells at the same time as they get the first level 9 slots. With Sorcerers it is even worse as the HLAs also make a mockery of the class restriction of having a very limited selection per spell level.
The best option might be too put the SoA xp cap at 3.4 million XP to account for SoD and start giving HLAs at 3.5 million XP instead of 3.
PS: on the linked mod, I am not personally a fan of just holding those levels in reserve and instantly granting them in ToB. This will lead to a weird power jump.
1) For BG1:ee,
either 89 k, 161 k, 500 k or 2.900 k
2) For SoD:ee,
either 161 k, 500 k or 2.900 k
3) For BG2:ee
either 2.900 k, 8.000 k or none
4)For ToB
either 2.900 k, 8.000 k or none
All xp that you get above the cap would be forfeit.
For those who play it on a Mac or PC it’s not a big deal because of mods and all, but for those on a phone/tablet or a console it’s a quick fix that would vastly improve the game.
Perhaps for 2.7?
Yeah, my mod was something that Julius requested I make for him. I likely would not have even uploaded it if he didn't say that it would be valuable to the community. It is in no way a perfect fix for the xp cap problem. Fixing the sudden xp jump on removal of the lowered cap was a bit beyond the scope of how involved I wanted to get into this. Maybe some day, I could fix it... but not now. In the mean time I would suggest just using the console/eekeeper to manually lower XP to whatever level you want it at before removing the cap.
Also, the inclusion of Watcher's Keep in SoA makes this a difficult issue to deal with, as it is a very difficult dungeon with many foes using HLAs of their own, unlike the entire rest of SoA. This is part of the reason I suggested removing the cap file whenever you felt like doing so.
The thing is, I want to do those challenging fights without relying on extra levels and HLAs myself.
For me personally, something like handling the Improved Ust-Natha or Tactics Irenicus without access to GWW and Planetars sounds like an ultimate challenge, pure fun.
even if i don't like at all the concept of xp cap i often use self restrain fighting the most challenging battles, like doing them with spells only or only ranged or only mlee, without casting.
it obviously depends on the party i am using and on the particular battle, tactics irenicus is hard enough even using all the tools at your disposal, i surely am not strong as player to beat him ranged only, but i don't see all that need that the restrain should come from the engine, like in the case of a xp cap, it is perfectly possible to avoid certain spells, items and hla simply deciding to not use them.
If someone wants to spend their time in a singleplayer game grinding xp beyond the imagination of the game designers, then let them.. limiting xp just lazy game design.
I don't think the devs of bg2 were ever thinking people would be theorycrafting the best builds or best way to reach max xp 20 years later.
At some point though, you're gonna have to stop developing new levels and progression.. such as maximum class level being 40, regardless of xp cap.. this i can understand.. because lvling past 40 in any single class really is quite meaningless.. and in a normal run, played by someone for the first 1-3 times the lvl cap won't really be an issue.. in bg2 anyway, capping in bg1 is too quick.
I like how in IWD you can reach 40/40/40 in a triple class.. makes much more sense than some arbitrary xp cap.
"I am sorry godchild.. it appears your brain is full and you may no longer learn any new party tricks, not until you've progressed past Irenicus and go on your way to Saradush.. because then I, Ao the overgod, will magically allow you to develop new synapses in your brain and let you grow stronger.." .... seems kinda silly.
i think that a mod that slow down the xp you get, both from the kills and completing quests, is the solution, while a cap, both retaining or loosing the xp gained after reaching it, would give to the solo runs a big steps feeling. you reach a top, then stop with no rp reason at all, to get better until you hit a game point where you become much more powerful, in an instant if the xp is not lost, but anyway very fast if it is lost as in tob you are granted with much more xp then in soa.
and the same problem is there for small parties, 2 or 3 people, as they get anyway a little less then 3x or 2x the xp the game was designed for, as the developers gave almost for granted that the player would run a full 6 people party.
about this i almost agree with you.
and i don't understand why if in original, removing the xp cap, it was possible, in EE the triple class are prevented to learn hla lev 9 spells.
this change to the game is based on the assumption that there is an xp cap and even hitting it a triple class lacks of the levels to cast lev 9, and this is true.
but it is a "metagame based" logic, there is no real reason, rp wise or else, why a triple class mage should not get those hla, if the 2 classes multi can do it, even if they have to split their learning effort between the mage class and an other, why a toon that split his effort between mage and 2 other classes should not, given that he study for enough time (gets enough xp)?
that change was done while the EE developers perfectly knew that some players chose to go with an xp cap remover. and only those players can reach enough xp to get the lev 9 mage hla, is not something that can affect a "normal" player, that does not remove the cap with a mod or editing the game files.
and this is an other example of how the EE developers, even if they say that they change the game, removing exploits and changing mechanics, only if those exploit can create a problem to normal players, actually try to enforce their own vision of the game on the players, well beyond the purpose of saving the "normal players" from having their game ruined by those exploits.
the xp cap protect the normal players from getting lev 9 spells and hla for their triple class as well as the minimum level of awareness of what they are doing protects them from setting a CC with 3 PI inside on helpless condition and then cast a PI to get 4 clones at the same time...
i am also convinced that a player that run a party with 2 or more bards and has them singing at the same time, or that cast many misleads from his bard and has them singing, and maybe hiding the clones very far behind a closed door that the ai does not how to open, is perfectly aware of what he is doing, is not a thing that can affect a player not willing to use those exploits.
the latter, and the fact that the interaction between autopause on round end and the bard song has been changed, make for me impossible to cast and attack in the same round, thing that was a pillar of my way to use the bards and my beloved blades. in EE if i want to have the song active without loosing the bard's attacks i have to use mislead, and i don't like to do it, i don't want to do it, as i consider it a cheap mean to have no retaliation at all from the enemies as it apply invisibility right after each attack or after each true sight.
EDIT: it is certainly not the first time that i rant about the changes to the game mechanics from the EE developers, and it will surely not be the last one.
i am convinced that who is in charge has the right to take his decisions, but i am also convinced that some coherence is needed doing that.
if the EE developers would have told: "we do those changes because we think that the game play becomes better with them" then ok, i own also the original version of the game and i can play (actually i do it) that one instead.
but as they told: "we do those changes to protect the players that don't like those exploits to be affected by them" my feelings are that they are trying to cheat on me and on those players that actually like and use those exploits, as many of them have almost no chance to happen if the player is not willing them to happen.
i would have expected more coherence between what the EE developers say and what they do.
and i tell this while still being perfectly aware of how they improved the game in other aspects, reload times, better ui and the rest. and mainly of how they with the EE brought new players and interest to the games so new modders come into the scene, the longevity of those games is exceptional, but they gave to them a new life, while without EE the interest would have probably faded, as the old players that play them since the beginning had few to learn or tell about them that was not already told.