Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Diablo IV(4)

12467

Comments

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    edited November 2019
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Love how now that Path of Exile is going mobile, apparently the internet consensus in the ARPG community is that mobile games are perfectly ok, even awesome. The more divorced we get from the Diablo Immortal announement, the more I'm ashamed I was even slightly upset about it. We now know how disingenuous the outrage actually was.

    I have long defended Path of Exile's microtransactions. It's how they keep the lights on. But now they have gone full holier than thou, somehow suggesting their cosmetics and loot-boxes are more pure than everyone else's and it's really turning me off. There is no evidence Blizzard will go beyond cosmetics in Immortal. They have never ONCE sold an actual piece of gear in any of their games, and I doubt they'd start now.

    I strongly agree that PoE microtransactions are fine. I just hate lootboxes. IMO they pray on addictive personalities. Let me pay for the item, not the chance of getting the item.

    As for mobile gaming, the greatest problem of mobile is that the controls are awful. But is path of exile team developing it, but announce a mobile game after almost a decade after the previous game, announce only a mobile game in a event where virtually everyone is a PC gamer.

    And here, at 31:20 he mentions mobile ""problems"" and even joked about "a year ago" at 33 min



    But at 10:40 he mentioned that skills GEMS will be finally UNTIED TO ITEMS that means that i will be able to complete the game naked, I love it.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,666
    edited November 2019
    I mean, yeah. Blizzard could have absolutely done what Bethesda did and announced Diablo IV when they had absolutely nothing to show people a year ago. I predict if they had done so they would have still gotten 90% of the hate they got anyway. If people were really that swayed by a video of some rocks and the words "The Elder Scrolls VI" then I really don't know. I think everyone was well aware that Diablo IV was in development. Anyone who cared enough to be angry about Immortal knew it was being worked on. It wasn't ready to be shown to the public. So they went with what they had. It just so happened they also had virtually nothing else to announce last year in terms of new titles.

    To be perfectly honest, the Path of Exile port looks like absolute shit compared to the gameplay footage from Immortal. But I don't begrudge anyone playing on whatever platform they want. It's just gate-keeping. The problem is, it now seems like it was more about bashing Blizzard than it was about actually being against mobile games. At this point we KNOW Grinding Gear is going to have microstransactions. We know no such thing about Immortal (although it certainly will).

    There were three things that supposedly upset the community last year:

    1.) The idea of a mobile game in and of itself
    2.) The anticipation of microtransactions
    3.) The way it was announced.

    I'd argue the third was way less of a factor than the first two if you rewind the clock to a year ago, and now all of a sudden everyone is pretending like the first two arguments never existed. Because the very idea behind supporting Grinding Gear is that they would NEVER do such a thing. Except, they are. To appeal to the exact same Asian market.

    BelleSorciere
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    Nah, I meant if they'd been able to present what they did this year last year. I agree they couldn't have done that.

    That said, I get the impression they've been working on it for longer than the past year.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    Victor: You create a character by selecting their class and gender and give them a name. You find gear in the game itself which you can choose to use, sell, salvage, etc. You can transmogrify and dye your items so your armor and weapon have a consistent look. Paragon levels allow you to customize your character to a degree, after leveling up to the level cap..

    Create a character/selecting class and gender - Can do that in many FPS games and is not a necessity for RPG's. See for example Gothic, Vampyr and Witcher
    Give a name - Not a RPG element. I can name my soldier in heroes & generals
    Find gear - Not a RPG element. I i can unlock new gear in tons of FPS
    Dye and change the visual of your items - Again, Not a RPG element.
    Leveling - IS debatable if is a RPG element or not. But there are some games without general character level, for example VtMB.
    Paragon - Not a RPG element is account wide.

    I created a soldier on heroes and generals and leveled him until i unlocked PzB 39, can change his clothing, etc. It doesn't make H&G a RPG. If you can somehow make your guy with a anti tank rifle different than another guy, not just using different gear, like for example, having a different sprinting speed, resistance, accuracy, carry weight limit, scope sway, etc; then at least will have some RPG elements.

    But War Thunder is more RPG than WoW and Diablo 3 combined. At least on WT, if you train your crew, you can have a crew able to repair more serious damage once the plane lands, or able to resist more G-force, or able to reload faster, etc.

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I think those looking for a D2 experience should.....play Diablo 2. It exists. It's as good as it ever was. You can play it on official servers or with any number of mods. But as I said before, it's been nearly 20 years. We aren't going back to the time of Baldur's Gate 2, Morrowind, Mandate of Heaven, Diablo 2. And not for nothing, but between Path of Exile and Grim Dawn, they have everything a D2 player is looking for. Diablo IV will be it's own game. I like re-playing old stuff as much as anyone on Earth, but the series can't just constantly look to the past.

    I said D2-like experience, which implies a game that's similar to D2 but that isn't D2. After a while, every game suffers from diminishing returns on replays, so don't pretend that we don't all want more of the games that we love.

    Diablo IV will be its own game, that's obviously the case. But the fact is, it's being developed by the studio that made Diablo III, and not by the studio that made the first two games, and it's also obvious that this will be reflected in the game's design and mechanics. That's what I meant to convey, and you can take it how you will.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    Adul wrote: »
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I think those looking for a D2 experience should.....play Diablo 2. It exists. It's as good as it ever was. You can play it on official servers or with any number of mods. But as I said before, it's been nearly 20 years. We aren't going back to the time of Baldur's Gate 2, Morrowind, Mandate of Heaven, Diablo 2. And not for nothing, but between Path of Exile and Grim Dawn, they have everything a D2 player is looking for. Diablo IV will be it's own game. I like re-playing old stuff as much as anyone on Earth, but the series can't just constantly look to the past.

    I said D2-like experience, which implies a game that's similar to D2 but that isn't D2. After a while, every game suffers from diminishing returns on replays, so don't pretend that we don't all want more of the games that we love.

    Diablo IV will be its own game, that's obviously the case. But the fact is, it's being developed by the studio that made Diablo III, and not by the studio that made the first two games, and it's also obvious that this will be reflected in the game's design and mechanics. That's what I meant to convey, and you can take it how you will.

    Yes, Diablo 2 is completely different than Diablo 1. But Diablo 3, looks like a Isometric WoW.

    The skill trees on D4 Blizzcon was looking like WoW trees, not D2 trees. Still better than every lv 70 char of the same class being a clone, the artstyle is much more true to Diablo, but don't get me wrong. I still think that will spend more time on PoE2 than on D IV. Mainly if they untie skill gems from items.

    Adul
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 959
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    People are complaining about D4 becoming too MMO-like, but that is EXACTLY what Blizzard North was designing their D3 to be.

    It's worth noting the timeline.

    D2 came out in 2000, LOD came out in 2001. That was when MMOs were in an expansionary time before WoW went for lowest common denominator.
    It's okay for games to be fun, dude.

    I'm not so sure about this, given the endless calculations and theorycrafting people can do for games.

    Or, to illustrate with an illustration:
    https://www.nerfnow.com/comic/285

    SorcererV1ct0r
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    Quickblade wrote: »
    D2 came out in 2000, LOD came out in 2001. That was when MMOs were in an expansionary time before WoW went for lowest common denominator.

    Well said. Before WoW, mmos was extremely different. Compare Ultima Online with Everquest. Both are COMPLETELY different. Now, the unique post wow mmo who is not a wow clone that i know, is Eve Online... Maybe Legend of Aria and Project Gorgon, but they still very niche games. Whiel UO and EQ was two of the most mainstream 90s mmoRPG's.

    Anyway, D1 is the best diablo. Can you do that? On D2? D3? D4? Or cooldowns won't allow?
    kllcOsd.png
    And be able to play offline means that i can install mods like belzebub
    zZaI19I.jpg

    Belzebub is a amazing mod, but unfortnetly adds a small(1 sec) CD on certain spells(nova, fire wall, guardian, etc) but allow you to play as a necromancer, barbarian and assassin. And adds cool spells and QoL changes.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    Quickblade wrote: »

    I'm not so sure about this, given the endless calculations and theorycrafting people can do for games.

    Or, to illustrate with an illustration:
    https://www.nerfnow.com/comic/285

    I think that misses the point, though?

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019

    Create a character/selecting class and gender - Can do that in many FPS games and is not a necessity for RPG's. See for example Gothic, Vampyr and Witcher
    Give a name - Not a RPG element. I can name my soldier in heroes & generals
    Find gear - Not a RPG element. I i can unlock new gear in tons of FPS
    Dye and change the visual of your items - Again, Not a RPG element.
    Leveling - IS debatable if is a RPG element or not. But there are some games without general character level, for example VtMB.
    Paragon - Not a RPG element is account wide.

    Stop shifting the goalposts. All of those elements were and remain key to RPGs, and were adopted for use in other genres. These don't stop being RPG elements because other games have increasingly adopted them.

    Character leveling was invented for RPGs, btw. But whatever, you're allowed to hate Diablo III, I just find it concerning that in order to justify that dislike you seem to have the facts about the game itself extremely wrong.

    Post edited by BelleSorciere on
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164

    Create a character/selecting class and gender - Can do that in many FPS games and is not a necessity for RPG's. See for example Gothic, Vampyr and Witcher
    Give a name - Not a RPG element. I can name my soldier in heroes & generals
    Find gear - Not a RPG element. I i can unlock new gear in tons of FPS
    Dye and change the visual of your items - Again, Not a RPG element.
    Leveling - IS debatable if is a RPG element or not. But there are some games without general character level, for example VtMB.
    Paragon - Not a RPG element is account wide.

    Stop shifting the goalposts. All of those elements were and remain key to RPGs, and were adopted for use in other genres. These don't stop being RPG elements because other games have increasingly adopted them.

    Character leveling was invented for RPGs, btw. But whatever, you're allowed to hate Diablo III, I just find it concerning that in order to justify that dislike you seem to have the facts about the game itself extremely wrong.

    You din't understood my point. I asked for a RPG element present on D3 AND not present in a FPS like Heroes & Generals, to illustrate that. Once you reach lv 70, your char, lets suppose a monk, he is equal to everyone else's lv 70 monk. They have exactly the same muscle mass, looking, skills ,etc. Even honest game players mocked D3 by it



    And can you name one RPG where it happens?

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,291
    Hehe, every character in BG2? ;) Obviously a bit jokey, but seriously, how many different 'builds' in BG/BG2 is there actually? Sure, there are some differentiations, but most ppl end up using mostly the same items on the same kind of characters and if you start with the same min/maxed stats you will also end with mostly the same stats of tomes, trials etc.

    I do get your point @SorcererV1ct0r, I just don't agree to your definitions. I think it's perfectly fine different games use different mechanics even if it's not my own preferable style of mechanics.

    BelleSorcierekanisatha
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    You din't understood my point. I asked for a RPG element present on D3 AND not present in a FPS like Heroes & Generals, to illustrate that. Once you reach lv 70, your char, lets suppose a monk, he is equal to everyone else's lv 70 monk. They have exactly the same muscle mass, looking, skills ,etc. Even honest game players mocked D3 by it



    And can you name one RPG where it happens?

    I did understand your point. However, if you eliminate every mechanic currently used in other games, then there's literally nothing left for RPGs, meaning RPGs don't exist, meaning your argument is still specious. Who knew that other game genres borrowing RPG elements would literally steal those elements making then definitionally not RPG?

    Honest Game Trailers is not an argument.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    Skatan wrote: »
    Hehe, every character in BG2? ;) Obviously a bit jokey, but seriously, how many different 'builds' in BG/BG2 is there actually? Sure, there are some differentiations, but most ppl end up using mostly the same items on the same kind of characters and if you start with the same min/maxed stats you will also end with mostly the same stats of tomes, trials etc.

    You CAN make a clone of a character on BG. On D3, everyone, regardless of your choices IS a clone. Pick Pathfinder Kingmaker for eg, two lv 20 sorcerers has :
    • Different heritages
    • Different attributes
    • Different skills
    • Different alignment
    • Different religion
    • Different spells
    • Different innate powers, eg, some gain wings, some gain +attributes, etc
    • Different relationships with NPC's
    • Solved some quests in different ways
    • (...)

    While on D3, two lv 70 wizards has NOTHING different.
    You din't understood my point. I asked for a RPG element present on D3 AND not present in a FPS like Heroes & Generals, to illustrate that. Once you reach lv 70, your char, lets suppose a monk, he is equal to everyone else's lv 70 monk. They have exactly the same muscle mass, looking, skills ,etc. Even honest game players mocked D3 by it



    And can you name one RPG where it happens?

    I did understand your point. However, if you eliminate every mechanic currently used in other games, then there's literally nothing left for RPGs, meaning RPGs don't exist, meaning your argument is still specious. Who knew that other game genres borrowing RPG elements would literally steal those elements making then definitionally not RPG?

    Honest Game Trailers is not an argument.

    No, the bare minimum that i use to consider something a RPG is mechanical character building + narrative character building. Sure, Diablo 1/2 was very poor in narrative character building, so other 90s RPG's like M&M VI~VIII but due the mechanical character building, they get a "pass".

    And lets look to wikipedia definition of RPG

    "A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,666
    This echos statements by Brevik in the past, but the Diablo 2 Remaster probably isn't happening for the same reason the Icewind Dale 2 Enhanced Edition isn't. The art assets don't exist:

    https://www.gamespot.com/articles/diablo-2-devs-recount-almost-losing-the-game-expla/1100-6471517/

    BallpointMan
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,291
    Skatan wrote: »
    Hehe, every character in BG2? ;) Obviously a bit jokey, but seriously, how many different 'builds' in BG/BG2 is there actually? Sure, there are some differentiations, but most ppl end up using mostly the same items on the same kind of characters and if you start with the same min/maxed stats you will also end with mostly the same stats of tomes, trials etc.

    You CAN make a clone of a character on BG. On D3, everyone, regardless of your choices IS a clone. Pick Pathfinder Kingmaker for eg, two lv 20 sorcerers has :
    • Different heritages
    • Different attributes
    • Different skills
    • Different alignment
    • Different religion
    • Different spells
    • Different innate powers, eg, some gain wings, some gain +attributes, etc
    • Different relationships with NPC's
    • Solved some quests in different ways
    • (...)

    While on D3, two lv 70 wizards has NOTHING different.

    I know that's your opinion, but it's not entirely true. PKM, as any game where you can affect your skills, have meta choices that are superior over others. Tell me a single sorcerer in PKM that doens't have Persuade? Can you find one? Can you find a single sorc that doesn't start with either 18 or 20 in CHA at char creation? I'm pretty sure you can't.

    Religion doesn't exist in PKM as a skill AFAIK? Sure a cleric can choose a god and get the domain's, but even DIablo had different gods, like barbs having bul kathos or whatever. Also, innate power in you list is the same as the heritage, so that's not really two points but one since one is dependent on the other. Solving quests in different ways is classic RPG, not aRPG, which of course is much more linear by default.

    And comparing a game that is a classic RPG with multiple classes and the potential for multiclassing with a game that has not is comparing apples to oranges.

    BelleSorciereJuliusBorisov
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    This echos statements by Brevik in the past, but the Diablo 2 Remaster probably isn't happening for the same reason the Icewind Dale 2 Enhanced Edition isn't. The art assets don't exist:

    https://www.gamespot.com/articles/diablo-2-devs-recount-almost-losing-the-game-expla/1100-6471517/

    They can't really remaster it properly, but they can update it for modern monitors. Can't do much about battle.net, though. It's fine, though, we have plugy.

    Another RPG element in any action RPG including Diablo III is that when you invest time in a character, that's your character. Sure other Crusaders may be similar to mine, but mine is the one I've spent time on, run bounties with, run rifts with, run greater rifts with, spent blood shards for, enchanted items for, upgraded rares for.

    Also I'm not sure if it was clear that paragon points are spent differently per character. Being account wide doesn't really mitigate it being an RPG feature. It's still something you earn for your characters. If account wide paragon levels makes it less of an RPG, shouldn't account wide stashes as well?

    I have a great time with Diablo III. I have a great time with Grim Dawn. I have a great time with Path of Exile. I have a great time with Torchlight 2. I have a great time with Diablo and Diablo II. They're all fun games. It's fine to not like them all, because everyone likes what they like. It's not necessary to justify hating a game by claiming it's not something it is or it is something that it's not. You can just hate it. And even hate it for those features you've stated. I just don't agree those features make it not an ARPG.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    edited November 2019
    Sure other Crusaders may be similar to mine

    They are not similar. They are completely clones.

    At 37:20, Jay Wilson says openly said that in a post mmo age, characters are disposable on post mmo age




    I honestly NEVER saw anyone complaing about D1/D2 """"problems"""" that Jay Wilson mentioned in that video. In fact, i looked into GOG reviews of D1 and on the first pages
    • ZERO people complaining that fire wall heat is not tied to the size and sharpness of the caster's axe
    • ZERO people complaining about the lack of cooldown
    • ZERO people complaining about the dark athmosphere and that the game doesn't hide succubus breast
    • ZERO people complaining that they did a awful choice on building their char
    • (...)

    But when i click on the GDC video, i see EVERYONE on top rated comments heavily criticizing his changes. Diablo 3 is the best example of how a solution to a (non) problem could be far worse than the ""problem"" itself.


    You liked D3 but you also liked WoW and honestly. I have the impression that they are trying to appeal to WoW demography, not diablo demography. That said, except by giving blood magic to necro and by removing gender lock, i can't see any improvement of D3 over D2. D4, i see a lot of improvement over D3, but "decline" in relation to D2.
    Skatan wrote: »
    [Hehe, every character in BG2? ;) Obviously a bit jokey, but seriously, how many different 'builds' in BG/BG2 is there actually? Sure, there are some differentiations, but most ppl end up using mostly the same items on the same kind of characters and if you start with the same min/maxed stats you will also end with mostly the same stats of tomes, trials etc.
    [/quote]

    I saw a Abyssal melee sorcerer who started with 16 CHA and believe or not reached ludicrous high stat on end game. But having a optional choice doens't mean that is s illusion of choice. Someone can quit a high paying job to go to the bar everyday. This is a bad choice, but still a choice.

    As for ARPG's being more linear, i consider Dark Souls and Gothic ARPG's and they are not exactly "linear".

    Post edited by SorcererV1ct0r on
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,666
    edited November 2019
    The non-linear nature of Dark Souls is way overstated. Sure, you CAN go to the Catacombs before heading up to the Undead Burg, but 95% of people are going to get one-shot by a skeleton and turn around, which is the whole intent. The people who DO go that way aren't even really playing the game. They are simply running past enemies to get the Zweihander or, in more extreme cases, running past everything in the Catacombs to get to Pinwheel and get the Rite of Kindling. The only thing the options in Dark Souls really do (throw the Master Key in as well) is help with speed runs. But you absolutely CANNOT advance in the game without ringing both Bells, and you cannot access the Lord Souls without finishing Anor Londo.

    BelleSorciere
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    The non-linear nature of Dark Souls is way overstated. Sure, you CAN go to the Catacombs before heading up to the Undead Burg, but 95% of people are going to get one-shot by a skeleton and turn around, which is the whole intent. The people who DO go that way aren't even really playing the game. They are simply running past enemies to get the Zweihander or, in more extreme cases, running past everything in the Catacombs to get to Pinwheel and get the Rite of Kindling. The only thing the options in Dark Souls really do (throw the Master Key in as well) is help with speed runs. But you absolutely CANNOT advance in the game without ringing both Bells, and you cannot access the Lord Souls without finishing Anor Londo.

    In ONE part. The order that you defeat the four bosses that you require is up to you. With 1 mi SM on 2, you can skip bosses, the most challenging bosses like Ancient Dragon, are optional.... Dark Souls 3 is the unique very railroad game...

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    Escape the Undead Asylum -> Ring the Bells of Awakening -> Get the Lord Vessel -> Gather the Lord Souls -> Fight Lord Gwyn

    I'd say it's only cosmetically nonlinear in that you can choose whether to fight Seath before the Bed of Chaos before the Four Kings before Gravelord Nito or some different order.

    If you have the master key, you can of course ring the Blight Town bell before the Undead Cathedral bell, but again it's a matter of cosmetics. You can't bypass entire swaths of story.

    Reminds me of the criticisms about how Neverwinter Nights and Knights of the Old Republic were about gathering maguffins from four different locations in any order you want.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,291
    edited November 2019
    Skatan wrote: »
    [Hehe, every character in BG2? ;) Obviously a bit jokey, but seriously, how many different 'builds' in BG/BG2 is there actually? Sure, there are some differentiations, but most ppl end up using mostly the same items on the same kind of characters and if you start with the same min/maxed stats you will also end with mostly the same stats of tomes, trials etc.


    I saw a Abyssal melee sorcerer who started with 16 CHA and believe or not reached ludicrous high stat on end game. But having a optional choice doens't mean that is s illusion of choice. Someone can quit a high paying job to go to the bar everyday. This is a bad choice, but still a choice.

    As for ARPG's being more linear, i consider Dark Souls and Gothic ARPG's and they are not exactly "linear".

    For every Sorc with 16CHA starting points in PKM, I'm very sure I can find a non-cookie cutter build in D3. I know, I know, you've made up your mind and there's really no point in discussing it with you. I'm really not trying to convince you otherwise, but rest assured even though I to a large extent actually do agree with you about ie D3's choice of mechanics is not the best choice from a RP perspective, I still find your rhetorics to be far, far to categorical.

    Also, D3 by default is about loot-hunting rather then story etc. You're not expected to build a char that progress through the story and then the game ends like with ie PKM or similar RPGs etc. You are pretty much expected to continue playing even far beoynd any character builds reach their limit (sure, paragons exist etc, but still) and that makes item hunting the prime motivator, the very kernel of the game. So if the items you hunt for didn't enhance your character, then why hunt for them? It's just something that gotta exist for you as a player to stay motivated. If you only enhanced your character from leveling and then reach a max, then what's the point? (EDIT: with "you" I don't mean you personally, I mean it generally speaking)

    BelleSorciereBallpointMan
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    edited November 2019
    Skatan wrote: »
    Skatan wrote: »
    [Hehe, every character in BG2? ;) Obviously a bit jokey, but seriously, how many different 'builds' in BG/BG2 is there actually? Sure, there are some differentiations, but most ppl end up using mostly the same items on the same kind of characters and if you start with the same min/maxed stats you will also end with mostly the same stats of tomes, trials etc.


    I saw a Abyssal melee sorcerer who started with 16 CHA and believe or not reached ludicrous high stat on end game. But having a optional choice doens't mean that is s illusion of choice. Someone can quit a high paying job to go to the bar everyday. This is a bad choice, but still a choice.

    As for ARPG's being more linear, i consider Dark Souls and Gothic ARPG's and they are not exactly "linear".

    For every Sorc with 16CHA starting points in PKM, I'm very sure I can find a non-cookie cutter build in D3. I know, I know, you've made up your mind and there's really no point in discussing it with you. I'm really not trying to convince you otherwise, but rest assured even though I to a large extent actually do agree with you about ie D3's choice of mechanics is not the best choice from a RP perspective, I still find your rhetorics to be far, far to categorical.

    Also, D3 by default is about loot-hunting rather then story etc. You're not expected to build a char that progress through the story and then the game ends like with ie PKM or similar RPGs etc. You are pretty much expected to continue playing even far beoynd any character builds reach their limit (sure, paragons exist etc, but still) and that makes item hunting the prime motivator, the very kernel of the game. So if the items you hunt for didn't enhance your character, then why hunt for them? It's just something that gotta exist for you as a player to stay motivated. If you only enhanced your character from leveling and then reach a max, then what's the point? (EDIT: with "you" I don't mean you personally, I mean it generally speaking)

    Again, have optional builds doesn't take out your choices.

    The problem with D3 is that """building"""" is much more akin to a LOADOUT in a FPS game than to building a actual character in a RPG.

    AS for gear, look to Diablo 1. The strongest unique longbow is not exponentially better than the regular "white" longbow. Loot only becomes ludicrous OP on Diablo franchise after 1.10 path of Diablo 2. And on Diablo 1/2, gear enhances your build. You can beat Diablo 1 naked. You can beat Diablo 2 naked. On 3, gear determines your build. Your character is disposable like the D3 designer said. Is just a blank statement to put gear on it... That is a huge difference.

    Diablo 1/2 are proper ARPG's. Diablo 3 is a wow feat slot machine simulator.

    This is why if Blizzard remaster/remake D1/D2, i don't wanna chances except bug fixes. There are a bug that kills one of the most gorgeous set transformations IMO



    And note that on D1/D2 see someone at LV cap is EXTREMELY rare. The idea that the game needs to start at lv cap and should have nothing but gear farming and everyone needs to be the same is post wow mmo-bs...

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,666
    edited November 2019
    The game starting at level-cap is all relative. There is a significant portion of the WoW player-base that enjoys nothing more than rolling endless alts (I know @BelgarathMTH is exactly this type of player). For many people, the game ENDS long before they ever set foot in an end-game raid or dungeon.

    Diablo is far easier to participate in endgame, because there is nothing that can't be done solo with enough gear and the right build (this is even true of Uber Tristram in Diablo 2). And while D2, doesn't have an OFFICIAL endgame, players made one themselves. It consists of running about 6 things thousands of times. Baal, Mephisto, Countess, Chaos Santuary, The Pits, and maybe the rest of Worldstone Keep. I don't see how Rifts and Greater Rifts (becoming Key Dungeons in Diablo IV) is in any way inferior to this kind of insane repetitiveness. And the reason these are the places that get run to the exlcusion of all others is because the game files tell us they are the places that can drop the most loot or Runes per hour.

    As for diversity of builds......look, you CAN make anything you want in Diablo 2. You absolutely cannot beat Hell with any old build. If you are serious about Magic Finding, it is pretty much mandatory to have a Sorceress to do so. And while I understand the challenge appeal of beating the game naked, the reason the Necro can do this is because his minions are doing passive damage to everything while you throw out Curses or Decrepify. And the idea that 99.9% of people are interested in wearing NO gear in a game that is fundamentally BASED on acquiring gear seems odd to me. Why would this be a concern of developers??

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    BelleSorciereSkatanJuliusBorisovBelgarathMTH
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    Diablo 2 also took away the beyond naked mage option, for that matter. That is, a mage wearing nothing but cursed items.

    Post edited by BelleSorciere on
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    Also, 70 isn't Diablo III's real level cap. It's just when you stop getting new skills and runes.

    Also, all ARPGs are slot machine simulators.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    Also, 70 isn't Diablo III's real level cap. It's just when you stop getting new skills and runes.

    Also, all ARPGs are slot machine simulators.

    Not true. ARPG = Action Role Playing game.

    That said, Gothic 1/2/3, Dark Souls 1/2/3, etc ARE ARPG's. If D2 had maintained organs, they would be a ARPG too.
    Diablo 2 also took away the beyond naked mage option, for that matter. That is, a mage wearing nothing but cursed items.

    That is sad. Very sad.

    I don't agree with D2 fanboys who believe that D2 is perfect. I have many critiques towards D2. For example
    • 1.10 runewords are broken OP
    • Power creep mainly after LOD
    • Only sorceress has a good mobility skill(teleport), barbarian leap is far worse than insta reach the boss to farm gear.
    • Purple potions should heal overtime like normal potions
    • Cooldowns on some druid skills and sorc skills (at least are small cooldown)
    • Gender locked classes
    • No more cursed gear
    • Succubi is far worst on D2 than on D1.
    • The game needs more diminishing returns on most things, including CC on bosses. Clay golem + decrepify can make any boss into a cakewalk
    • Respec is too easy
    • Attributes needs to be re worked. Energy should be useful for more builds than just "energy shield sorceress"
    • Immunities should be more rare.
    • Enemies could use more non damaging spells, like curses against the player.
    • (can continue listing)

    For me, the best Diablo is Diablo 1. But D1 also has a problem. Lacks content. I mean, 16 floors and that is it. Compared to other 90s RPG's, D1 is very short.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,666
    edited November 2019
    I think it's best to clarify what we're talking about here. I understand many of the games you mention are "Action Role-playing games". But when many people (like myself) use the acronym "ARPG", we are talking about a specific thing, which is, essentially, games DIRECTLY influenced by Diablo to the point that they are commonly called "Diablo-clones". And honestly, I can name every significant one off the top of my head. Diablo, Diablo 2, Diablo 3, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Torchlight, Torchlight 2, Sacred, Sacred 2, Path of Exile, The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing, Victor Vran, Throne of Darkness, Fate, Nox, Dungeon Siege, Din's Curse, and, if you want to throw it in there even though it sucks, Kult: Heretic Kingdoms. I mean, I might be missing a few, but nothing significant. Wolcen and Last Epoch are in production but have a LONG way to go to convince me they are worthwhile.

    SorcererV1ct0rBelgarathMTHBelleSorciereSkatan
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I think it's best to clarify what we're talking about here. I understand many of the games you mention are "Action Role-playing games". But when many people (like myself) use the acronym "ARPG", we are talking about a specific thing, which is, essentially, games DIRECTLY influenced by Diablo to the point that they are commonly called "Diablo-clones". And honestly, I can name every significant one off the top of my head. Diablo, Diablo 2, Diablo 3, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Torchlight, Torchlight 2, Sacred, Sacred 2, Path of Exile, The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing, Victor Vran, Throne of Darkness, Fate, Nox, Dungeon Siege, Din's Curse, and, if you want to throw it in there even though it sucks, Kult: Heretic Kingdoms. I mean, I might be missing a few, but nothing significant. Wolcen and Last Epoch are in production but have a LONG way to go to convince me they are worthwhile.

    Yes, but ARPG's was never defined as clickers isometric loot hunters.

  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 959
    Also, 70 isn't Diablo III's real level cap. It's just when you stop getting new skills and runes.

    Also, all ARPGs are slot machine simulators.

    Annnd now I don't think I'll be able to look at the games the same now.

Sign In or Register to comment.