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Diablo IV(4)

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  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    edited November 2019
    Zelda is not a RPG/ARPG. There are no character building. Link is Link regardless what you do... You mostly only progress on eqquipment. Morrowind is not a ARPG too. Has some ARPG's elements like real time, but is much more dependent on the char's skill than on player skill.... ARPGs like Gothic 1/2/3, Diablo 1/2 and even Dark Souls generally require more of the player and less of the char.

    As for Diablo, i would classify :
    Diablo 1 - ARPG (clicker) with some horror elements and looter elements
    Diablo 2 - ARPG(clicker) with looter elements
    Diablo 3 - Looter hack & slash
    Diablo 4 - ?????

    My guess is that D4 will be a looter with RPG elements(not present on D3)

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,632
    edited November 2019
    Adul wrote: »
    There were also plenty of huge Western ARPGs before Diablo, such as Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Arena... the list is enormous.

    We're now classifying grid-based dungeon crawlers that literally REQUIRE mapping on graph paper or a hint book with the maps to complete them ARPGs?? And as for The first 3 Elder Scrolls games, the determining factor in whether you hit or not is still based on DICE ROLLS. There is a distinct difference between "real-time" and "action".

    BelleSorciereSkatanJuliusBorisov
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,560
    Zelda is not a RPG/ARPG. There are no character building. Link is Link regardless what you do... You mostly only progress on eqquipment. Morrowind is not a ARPG too. Has some ARPG's elements like real time, but is much more dependent on the char's skill than on player skill.... ARPGs like Gothic 1/2/3, Diablo 1/2 and even Dark Souls generally require more of the player and less of the char.

    As for Diablo, i would classify :
    Diablo 1 - ARPG (clicker) with some horror elements and looter elements
    Diablo 2 - ARPG(clicker) with looter elements
    Diablo 3 - Looter hack & slash
    Diablo 4 - ?????

    My guess is that D4 will be a looter with RPG elements(not present on D3)


    You're entitled to your own definition of an RPG, but there are plenty of people (myself included), who do not believe that there is some hard and fast rule that requires character building for a game to be an RPG.

    Based on a few searches on the internet, it seems that Zelda is broadly considered to be a part of the ARPG genre.

    BelleSorciereAdul
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    Zelda is not a RPG/ARPG. There are no character building. Link is Link regardless what you do... You mostly only progress on eqquipment. Morrowind is not a ARPG too. Has some ARPG's elements like real time, but is much more dependent on the char's skill than on player skill.... ARPGs like Gothic 1/2/3, Diablo 1/2 and even Dark Souls generally require more of the player and less of the char.

    As for Diablo, i would classify :
    Diablo 1 - ARPG (clicker) with some horror elements and looter elements
    Diablo 2 - ARPG(clicker) with looter elements
    Diablo 3 - Looter hack & slash
    Diablo 4 - ?????

    My guess is that D4 will be a looter with RPG elements(not present on D3)


    You're entitled to your own definition of an RPG, but there are plenty of people (myself included), who do not believe that there is some hard and fast rule that requires character building for a game to be an RPG.

    Based on a few searches on the internet, it seems that Zelda is broadly considered to be a part of the ARPG genre.

    Some people consider Zelda a RPG and some doesn't consider. But EVERYONE consider Baldur's Gate a RPG for eg.

    A good comment "Zelda is an Action Adventure. It can simplistically be called an RPG without RPG elements. However, Fantasy setting doesn't make a game an RPG."


    For some people every game in fantasy settings is a RPG regardless of if it has mechancial or narrative cahracter building...

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,632
    Zelda is.....right on the edge. Zelda II actually probably IS an RPG (even if totally rudimentary) because you can choose where to put your point upgrades. And Breath of the Wild is HEAVILY influenced by Dark Souls and Skyrim. Heavily. What it comes down to is that alot of people put way, WAY more value in having total control of their character right down to the last decimal point than I do.

    Not every game classified as an RPG has to included a D&D tabletop character sheet to get in the club. It isn't just RPGs that are influenced by Dungeons and Dragons, it's pretty much ALL of gaming. It's the single most influential factor in the history of the medium, even for games that only have incremental power-ups.

    BelleSorciereJuliusBorisov
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Not every game classified as an RPG has to included a D&D tabletop character sheet to get in the club. It isn't just RPGs that are influenced by Dungeons and Dragons, it's pretty much ALL of gaming. It's the single most influential factor in the history of the medium, even for games that only have incremental power-ups.

    I think that the main difference between CoD and Fallout New Vegas is that CoD has a loadout system. FNV has a caracter sheet. Two guys handling the same weapon, a anti materiel rifle on FNV can have extremely different experiences. On CoD, they handle in a identical way. Having a character sheet with attributes, skills, etc describing what your char can and cannot do is one of the most basic RPG elements.

    Diablo 3, Albion Online, WoW, etc has loadout system and that is why they aren't proper RPG's.

    Anyway, did you knew? Diablo 2 had a 3e D&D adaptaiton. HEre is a stream



    Due the non OGL nature of the ruleset, i can't detail much, but there are huge differences. Mana instead of casts for rest, is for eg, a huge difference.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    Diablo 3, Albion Online, WoW, etc has loadout system and that is why they aren't proper RPG's.

    This is misinformation. RPG isn't defined in terms of which games you like and which games you do not.


    BallpointMan
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    edited November 2019
    Diablo 3, Albion Online, WoW, etc has loadout system and that is why they aren't proper RPG's.

    This is misinformation. RPG isn't defined in terms of which games you like and which games you do not.


    Not true. I love ArmA 3. It doesn't make ArmA 3 a RPG. I also like borderlands, not as much as FNV but it doesn't make BL a RPG. The maojority of people alse consider BL as a shooter with light RPG elements ( https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120408190424AAgstNg )

    But there are a huge difference and having RPG elements and the RPG being the focus. Look to GTA. It has racing. Is a racing game? No. At the same way that a puzzle in Dragon Age Origins doesn't make it into a puzzle game...

    This games has no mechanical or narrative character building...

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,282
    OK, this thread is derailing quite a bit. Discussing genres and definitions can be fun, but we're straying quite far from DIV more and more.

    For discussions about RPG, there was at least one old thread (maybe there's more):
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/56413/what-is-an-rpg

    Perhaps those discussions could go there? I could also split out the posts there if you want to.

    JuliusBorisovSorcererV1ct0rAdulBallpointMan
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    edited November 2019
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Adul wrote: »
    There were also plenty of huge Western ARPGs before Diablo, such as Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Arena... the list is enormous.

    We're now classifying grid-based dungeon crawlers that literally REQUIRE mapping on graph paper or a hint book with the maps to complete them ARPGs?? And as for The first 3 Elder Scrolls games, the determining factor in whether you hit or not is still based on DICE ROLLS. There is a distinct difference between "real-time" and "action".

    Even if you don't count dungeon crawlers, the list is still enormous. Google "80s action rpgs" and "90s action rpgs".

    IMO it's more a matter of the control scheme in place. In CRPGs you order your character to carry out actions, in ARPGs you carry out the actions yourself, as your character. In CRPGs actions are governed by rounds, delays, or countdowns, in ARPGs actions are governed by animation frames. Generally.
    Skatan wrote: »
    OK, this thread is derailing quite a bit. Discussing genres and definitions can be fun, but we're straying quite far from DIV more and more.

    For discussions about RPG, there was at least one old thread (maybe there's more):
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/56413/what-is-an-rpg

    Perhaps those discussions could go there? I could also split out the posts there if you want to.

    I vote for splitting, this is more interesting. :D

    Skatan
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    Well, is hard to pick every post here talking about definitions and move to what is an rpg?

    Anyway, about the lore, i really wanna understand more about a very mysterious figure in Diablo universe.

    Trang'Oul

    "Trag'Oul (lit. The One Who is Forever, among other translations of the name)[2] is an ancient and mysterious dragon-like being who guards Sanctuary and maintains the Balance between the High Heavens and the Burning Hells, intent on keeping Sanctuary free from angelic and demonic influences. His fate is tied to that of Sanctuary.[3]" https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Trag'Oul

    latest?cb=20120714034727


    What i know about Trag?
    • He is Rathma(first nephalem and first necromancer) MASTER
    • He is concerned about balance
    • The magic the he teached Rathma is much more about controlling live and unlife, than manipulating elements of sorc or the nature itself(druid)
    • The full set of Trag on D2 transform the caster into a vampire and bestow some fire spells that only vampire mobs and sorc can use
    • Despite being a balance protector, undeads are often used by demons but NEVER by angels
    • HE is neither nephalem, nor demon, nor angel. What he is?

    PS : Not bringing back to D2 and lod "op gear", discussion, but here is a amazing build that can deal 77k poison damage

    Adul
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,632
    edited November 2019
    With all the talk of Diablo and Path of Exile, it's worth pointing out (especially given this new update) that Grim Dawn continues to beat the socks off both of them:


    How did Crate handle "microstransactions"?? They released two Loyalist packs that basically said "if you appreciate the work we've done, consider spending another $7". It was just some transmog looks, and it wasn't on sale for a limited time. I bought both the moment they were available, even though I have never actually used anything in them. Because they deserved the support.

    BelleSorciereBelgarathMTH
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    I've used them and they're fun, but lots of really cool looking stuff just in the game.

    Been waiting for the update.

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    What i know about Trag?
    • He is Rathma(first nephalem and first necromancer) MASTER
    • He is concerned about balance
    • The magic the he teached Rathma is much more about controlling live and unlife, than manipulating elements of sorc or the nature itself(druid)
    • The full set of Trag on D2 transform the caster into a vampire and bestow some fire spells that only vampire mobs and sorc can use
    • Despite being a balance protector, undeads are often used by demons but NEVER by angels
    • HE is neither nephalem, nor demon, nor angel. What he is?

    I really would love to know more about Trag'oul and how he came to be. It could be that he was a response to Anu and Tathamet (my brain always wants to type Anu and Padomey there), preexisted Anu, or came into being for some other reason.

    I wonder if he exists because of Sanctuary, Nephalem (always want to spell this Nephilim), and ultimately the depowered humanity.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    My hypotheses is that after the worldstone was "sealing" the human's power, so much power needs to go to one place. Maybe Trang is literally created by the power drain from the humanity and the desire to protect the sanctuary... If this is truth, he with the power of millions of nephalem should be able to easily obliterate all archangels and prime evils without any problem.

    BelleSorciere
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,615
    @jjstraka34 , Grim Dawn is the game I've been spending way too many hours playing over the past three or four weeks. I also got a new LG HDTV recently that makes it look fantastic in the dark areas. (They're *really* pitch black dark for me now, adding to the mood.)

    I was delighted when this huge new patch hit yesterday, right when I was beginning to level my second Oathkeeper. (I wanted to see how Aegis of Menhir paired with Judgment as my main two attacks would compare to my Oathkeeper using Righteous Fervor and Vire's Might. Respec, reschmec, I want two separate characters of the same class using different abilities. That's how crazy I can be with alts. And kudos to the talent tree system in Grim Dawn that you can get half a dozen or more totally different builds going out of a single mastery, without even going into dual mastery combos. :) )

    jjstraka34BelleSorciere
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,632
    @jjstraka34 , Grim Dawn is the game I've been spending way too many hours playing over the past three or four weeks. I also got a new LG HDTV recently that makes it look fantastic in the dark areas. (They're *really* pitch black dark for me now, adding to the mood.)

    I was delighted when this huge new patch hit yesterday, right when I was beginning to level my second Oathkeeper. (I wanted to see how Aegis of Menhir paired with Judgment as my main two attacks would compare to my Oathkeeper using Righteous Fervor and Vire's Might. Respec, reschmec, I want two separate characters of the same class using different abilities. That's how crazy I can be with alts. And kudos to the talent tree system in Grim Dawn that you can get half a dozen or more totally different builds going out of a single mastery, without even going into dual mastery combos. :) )

    I'm trying to figure out by looking at the Rares in my bank if they have the new stats on them, or if you need to get them to drop again. I honestly can't see any difference in the ones in my stash, so I'm thinking it's the later.

    BelgarathMTH
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    About my Trang hypoteses, was wrong. He existed before the worldstone started to seal human power( a detailed discussion here > https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/e0hqu3/what_is_tragoul_was_he_created_by_the_worldstone/ )

    Anyway, IMO Blizzard should hire the path of diablo devs to make D IV.

    BelleSorciere
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    @jjstraka34 , Grim Dawn is the game I've been spending way too many hours playing over the past three or four weeks. I also got a new LG HDTV recently that makes it look fantastic in the dark areas. (They're *really* pitch black dark for me now, adding to the mood.)

    I was delighted when this huge new patch hit yesterday, right when I was beginning to level my second Oathkeeper. (I wanted to see how Aegis of Menhir paired with Judgment as my main two attacks would compare to my Oathkeeper using Righteous Fervor and Vire's Might. Respec, reschmec, I want two separate characters of the same class using different abilities. That's how crazy I can be with alts. And kudos to the talent tree system in Grim Dawn that you can get half a dozen or more totally different builds going out of a single mastery, without even going into dual mastery combos. :) )

    I really like the dual-classing built into the game, plus the constellations adding more bonuses and skills on top of that.
    About my Trang hypoteses, was wrong. He existed before the worldstone started to seal human power( a detailed discussion here > https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/e0hqu3/what_is_tragoul_was_he_created_by_the_worldstone/ )

    Anyway, IMO Blizzard should hire the path of diablo devs to make D IV.

    It wasn't a bad idea, but yeah. We also don't know how Anu came to be, only how he made Tathamet and they got into a fight to the death. But I am curious as to what was going on there.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    Rhykker posted his round up today, with some information about Diablo IV:



    Linked to the time the Diablo stuff starts.

    The Diablo IV dev blog he's talking about: https://us.diablo3.com/en/blog/23232022/system-design-in-diablo-iv-part-i-11-19-2019

    Also, apparent confirmation that the pale guy in the cinematic trailer is Rathma:

    Almost forgot to add this demo gameplay comparison between Diablo IV at Blizzcon and Path of Exile 2 at Exilecon:

    SorcererV1ct0rAdulSkatan
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,632
    edited December 2019
    Kind of surprised how often they are giving updates in blog posts this far out. In short, there are going to be requirements for gear that meet one of 3 criteria, and Ancient items are not returning, though since they were only added to 3 to give a reason to keep playing after you had enchanting your regular pieces perfectly, this isn't much of a loss:

    BelleSorciereSorcererV1ct0r
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    David Kim is amazing. I an having hoppes for D4 now.

    I liked the idea of Algelic power, Demonic power and Ancient power, is IMO better than STR/DEX/INT that many RPG's including G3 use.


    Not trying to make this thread a "D3 *****" tread, but the same things who happened with D3 happend on other ARPG's of the earlier 2010's. Notably Sacred 3 and ArcaniA - Gothic 4. On Gothic 4 is worse because not only they made your char's DNA 100% tied to gear and added cooldowns and a ultra raildoaded experience, but they also destroyed the game's lore. Rune Magic that Xardas supposedly destroyed on the beginning of G3 is not only back but with CDs and the game gave no explanation to both BS. They even renamed the game to put gothic 4 in the subtitle to avoid fan backlash...

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,632
    To be fair, those are games absolutely no one has a high opinion of. They are both awful, derivative pieces of junk.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    edited December 2019
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    To be fair, those are games absolutely no one has a high opinion of. They are both awful, derivative pieces of junk.

    Well, Blizzard store doesn't allow reviews. I believe that if D3 was on GOG/STEAM, they will have a similar rating to ArcaniA and Sacred 3, there are people who wrote positive/5 star reviews on both games. But the places where people can write reviews, like metacritic, people don't rate D3 in a positive way...


    About D4. According to what i read
    • Power will not be 100% tied to gear
    • Attributes are back and different than D2
    • The design of certain classes looks less wow like and more diablo like (my male necro on d3 looks extremely androgynous)
    • Cooldowns unfortunately will stay
    • Level cap progression
    • Weapon and armor design = ?????? The blizzcon demo looks good but PLS. No Bikini armor with 50kg Pauldron
    • (...)

    In other words, looks like will worth to be played. Will not be the Diablo of my dreams, but will be a decent game. Lets see if they can execute well this ideas.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    Some armor design for D4

    Sorc


    Druid


    Barb


    IMO is better htan D3, but still too much ""flamboistic""...

    Gothic 1/2/3 and Dark Souls 1/2 IMO had the best armor design of the ARPGs...

    Skatan
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,632

    I don't think anyone was expecting this til the end of next month. That said, it's clear this game has at least 18 months of development time in front of it. Even a 2021 release at this point is wildly optimistic.

    JuliusBorisov
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,632
    edited May 2020
    Well, it looks like we probably ARE getting that Diablo 2 Remaster coming later in the year, and it looks like it's been outsourced just like Warcraft III. A word of warning in advance: the MAIN issue with WCIII Reforged is that they made the old game not accessible to download even off your Blizzard account page. I (and I can't stress this enough) STRONGLY suggest every get a copy of the 1.12 installers from somewhere (either from your original discs or anywhere else you can find them) as well as Patch 1.13c and save them to an external hard drive or anywhere you keep your stuff stored. Because in all likelihood, you won't be able to download the original client anymore once it's out.

    SorcererV1ct0r
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,162
    My fear is if Blizzard decides to CUT stuff from D2 or worst. Try to "balance" things, putting cooldowns on skills like Teleport, making your spells scale not with your skill level but with the size and sharpness of your axe and make all assets far more "carnavalesque". If use mods like Path of Diablo becomes harder, it would be a problem too. Imagine if they make offline play impossible...

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,618
    edited May 2020
    I never had any doubt the remaster would be released this year. They needed it to build hype for D4, because D4 is inspired by D2.

    Having just beaten D2 with a hardcore character, here is a list of things I'd appreciate from a D2 remaster:

    - upgraded visuals
    - bigger or unlimited storage space
    - more low- and mid-level runewords

    That's all. Having a game with those features would prolong the longevity of D2 for me for another 15 years. :)

    And I'd bet they are not fools to repeat ANY issue from the WoW launch last year.

    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
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