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Diablo IV(4)

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  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125

    Yes, but ARPG's was never defined as clickers isometric loot hunters.

    Diablo III is not a "clickers isometric loot hunters." But all ARPGs are, at least in part, about the loot hunt. The defining game for the genre is Diablo II and what did the most invested people spend most of their time doing in that? Running Baal, Pindleskin, etc. Many people simply ran bots to get as much loot as possible, usually to sell them via third party websites. the games that followed - Fate, Titan Quest, Torchlight, Torchlight II, etc... put a lot of energy into designing rewarding loot systems.

    jjstraka34's definition of ARPG is the one I'm using, not the goalpost shifting necessary to include games that don't fit as a counter argument.
    Quickblade wrote: »

    Annnd now I don't think I'll be able to look at the games the same now.

    Sorry!

    SkatanBelgarathMTH
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    Diablo III is not a "clickers isometric loot hunters." But all ARPGs are, at least in part, about the loot hunt. The defining game for the genre is Diablo II and what did the most invested people spend most of their time doing in that? Running Baal, Pindleskin, etc. Many people simply ran bots to get as much loot as possible, usually to sell them via third party websites. the games that followed - Fate, Titan Quest, Torchlight, Torchlight II, etc... put a lot of energy into designing rewarding loot systems.!

    ARPG = Action Role Playing Game.

    That said, Gothic 1/2/3 is not about loot hunt. Dark Souls can be beaten by a naked guy with a sticky

    Adul
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,659
    Diablo III is not a "clickers isometric loot hunters." But all ARPGs are, at least in part, about the loot hunt. The defining game for the genre is Diablo II and what did the most invested people spend most of their time doing in that? Running Baal, Pindleskin, etc. Many people simply ran bots to get as much loot as possible, usually to sell them via third party websites. the games that followed - Fate, Titan Quest, Torchlight, Torchlight II, etc... put a lot of energy into designing rewarding loot systems.!

    ARPG = Action Role Playing Game.

    That said, Gothic 1/2/3 is not about loot hunt. Dark Souls can be beaten by a naked guy with a sticky

    Gothic 1 and 2 are contemporaries of Morrowind (they also have the most counter-intuitive keyboard control scheme in the history of gaming). Dark Souls draws it's DNA mostly from Castlevania and Metroid with the severe death penalties of Rogue-likes. They really have nothing to do with Diablo whatsoever. They are games that are played for completely different reasons.

    BelleSorciereJuliusBorisov
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Diablo III is not a "clickers isometric loot hunters." But all ARPGs are, at least in part, about the loot hunt. The defining game for the genre is Diablo II and what did the most invested people spend most of their time doing in that? Running Baal, Pindleskin, etc. Many people simply ran bots to get as much loot as possible, usually to sell them via third party websites. the games that followed - Fate, Titan Quest, Torchlight, Torchlight II, etc... put a lot of energy into designing rewarding loot systems.!

    ARPG = Action Role Playing Game.

    That said, Gothic 1/2/3 is not about loot hunt. Dark Souls can be beaten by a naked guy with a sticky

    Gothic 1 and 2 are contemporaries of Morrowind (they also have the most counter-intuitive keyboard control scheme in the history of gaming). Dark Souls draws it's DNA mostly from Castlevania and Metroid with the severe death penalties of Rogue-likes. They really have nothing to do with Diablo whatsoever. They are games that are played for completely different reasons.

    My point is that loot and ation role playing games are two different things.

    Loot is important for Diablo, but is not the unique thing and also declined a lot.

    Diablo 1 - OMG. I found this amazing piece of armor who can increase my AC by a lot and make enemies far more likely to miss and is magically enchanted to resist fire, so some demons will not be a problem anymore;
    Diablo 3 - OMG - I found the final piece of a set. Now i have +67537437538654 weapon damage to make my unarmed strikes more strong, and my muscle mass is 500 times bigger now.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    Dark Souls isn't an ARPG. It's similar in some ways but is really its own genre now, including From Software's games, The Surge, Nioh, Salt & Sanctuary, etc. ARPGs are designed around killing monsters so you can get better gear so you can kill tougher monsters so you can get better gear so you can kill tougher monsters etc. The genre mostly gets called "Souls-like" in a manner similar to how FPSes were called Doom clones early on.

    Gothic isn't an ARPG. It's an RPG, certainly, but it's not really related to Diablo, Diablo II, Diablo III, Torchlight, Torchlight II, Torchlight: Frontiers, Fate, Hellgate: London, Marvel Heroes, Path of Exile, Victor Vran, Van Helsing, etc. are ARPGs. It Lurks Below is an ARPG, even though it also a survival game and a sidescroller in a similar vein to Terraria.

    All of these games are not just about killing things, but gearing up, leveling up, and in general improving your character to take on greater challenges.

    Also, I'm perfectly aware of what ARPG means, given that I've been playing them since Blizzard released the Diablo demo. The issue here is not that I do not understand what you're saying. The issue here is that you're constantly shifting the goalposts and that I disagree strongly with your attempts to muddle the definition of an action role-playing game.

    SkatanJuliusBorisov
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    Dark Souls isn't an ARPG. It's similar in some ways but is really its own genre now, including From Software's games, The Surge, Nioh, Salt & Sanctuary, etc. ARPGs are designed around killing monsters so you can get better gear so you can kill tougher monsters so you can get better gear so you can kill tougher monsters etc. The genre mostly gets called "Souls-like" in a manner similar to how FPSes were called Doom clones early on.

    Gothic isn't an ARPG. It's an RPG, certainly, but it's not really related to Diablo, Diablo II, Diablo III, Torchlight, Torchlight II, Torchlight: Frontiers, Fate, Hellgate: London, Marvel Heroes, Path of Exile, Victor Vran, Van Helsing, etc. are ARPGs. It Lurks Below is an ARPG, even though it also a survival game and a sidescroller in a similar vein to Terraria.

    All of these games are not just about killing things, but gearing up, leveling up, and in general improving your character to take on greater challenges.

    Also, I'm perfectly aware of what ARPG means, given that I've been playing them since Blizzard released the Diablo demo. The issue here is not that I do not understand what you're saying. The issue here is that you're constantly shifting the goalposts and that I disagree strongly with your attempts to muddle the definition of an action role-playing game.

    "Action role-playing video games (abbreviated action RPG or ARPG) are a subgenre of role-playing video games. The games emphasize real-time combat where the player has direct control over the characters as opposed to turn or menu-based combat. These games often use action game combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games. Action role-playing games may also incorporate action-adventure games, which include a mission system and RPG mechanics, or massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) with real-time combat systems."

    No mention to loot in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_role-playing_game

    Wikipedia consier the following subgenres on ARPG's
    • First-person dungeon crawler
    • Point and click
    • RP shooter

    On steam top sellers of ARPG category > https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Action+RPG#p=0&tab=TopSellers

    You can see even Fallout New Vegas and Dark Souls 2 Sotfs

    Adul
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    I've always counted every Western RPG that isn't a CRPG (i.e. not focused on tactical fights) as ARPG. This includes everything from Diablo to Morrowind and beyond. There are subcategories for loot-centric ARPGs such as hack-and-slash and looter shooter.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    edited November 2019
    One more thing. Looks like D 4 will not be a BARBIE dressing game
    Kim wrote:
    The community has shared many good points on the topic of power sources and we’re reevaluating how much power comes from each source at any given time.

    However, we want to clarify that in Diablo IV, power doesn’t come mostly from items. We want to have a good mix of power sources: characters naturally get stronger as they level up, skills have ranks that increase power, talents provide specific playstyle choices and additional character power, and of course items grant power and meaningful choices as well.

    Something else to keep in mind is Legendary powers are just one part of an item’s power, and they won’t invalidate all other Affixes due to how powerful they are. For example, two to three normal Affixes are currently equivalent in power to a Legendary power on most items.
    source https://us.diablo3.com/en/blog/23232022

    A good commented video. See at 6:30 for the power source

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,659
    I guarantee Legendary Items in each slot are still going to be ideal for nearly every situation. Personally, I find this idea that at least 3 or 4 slots need to be really good rares to more nonsense nostalgia for the original Diablo 2 before Lord of Destruction. Because it sure as hell wasn't like that afterwards. Thing is, Vanilla Diablo 3 WAS like this, and everyone hated it anyway because legendary items were absolutely useless 90% of the time. Unique/Legendary/Set/Runewords are fun. It feels awesome when they drop, it feels awesome to put them on and get more powerful. Saying you are more excited if some "Eagles Talon of the Barbed Monkey" yellow that happens to roll with great affixes 1 time out of every 100,000 is just contrarian BS.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    edited November 2019
    jjstraka34, people hated vanilla D3 because Jay Wilson ruined EVERYTHING. RoS saved part of itemization. Classic D2 is amazing. Legendaries are not broken OP on D1 and on D2 pre LoD

    If you see the interview of Jay "shut up pvp" Wilson, he criticizes heavily D2 LOD itemization. People hated D3 itemization but i don't know anyone who hated D1/D2 itemization.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    Adul wrote: »
    I've always counted every Western RPG that isn't a CRPG (i.e. not focused on tactical fights) as ARPG. This includes everything from Diablo to Morrowind and beyond. There are subcategories for loot-centric ARPGs such as hack-and-slash and looter shooter.

    That's certainly valid as a personal definition, but in terms of game evolution since the 90s, it's not exactly accurate. Diablo essentially introduced the ARPG genre, and Diablo II made it much better. Everything that qualfies as ARPG since can trace influences back to that point.

    Morrowind is not an ARPG. Neither are the Infinity Engine games, Neverwinter Nights, etc. By defining all western CRPGs as ARPGs the term has literally no meaning. And then you have Japanese games that are far closer to ARPG than any western CRPG, such as Dark Souls (although I don't think it's an ARPG either).

    JuliusBorisov
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    On steam top sellers of ARPG category > https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Action+RPG#p=0&tab=TopSellers

    You can see even Fallout New Vegas and Dark Souls 2 Sotfs

    Wikipedia isn't a primary source, and shouldn't be cited. Also, if you define ARPG that broadly, then you have zero standing to argue that Diablo III isn't an ARPG.

    Steam tags are user-defined.

    JuliusBorisov
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,291
    jjstraka34, people hated vanilla D3 because Jay Wilson ruined EVERYTHING. RoS saved part of itemization. Classic D2 is amazing. Legendaries are not broken OP on D1 and on D2 pre LoD

    If you see the interview of Jay "shut up pvp" Wilson, he criticizes heavily D2 LOD itemization. People hated D3 itemization but i don't know anyone who hated D1/D2 itemization.

    Some people might have hated D3 indeed, but they still have a failry good amount of players who play regularly, their expansions sold well and there are many who enjoy the streamlined mechanics and approach.

    You really should stop using your own personal opinions as some kind of truth.

    JuliusBorisovBelleSorciere
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,659
    edited November 2019
    jjstraka34, people hated vanilla D3 because Jay Wilson ruined EVERYTHING. RoS saved part of itemization. Classic D2 is amazing. Legendaries are not broken OP on D1 and on D2 pre LoD

    If you see the interview of Jay "shut up pvp" Wilson, he criticizes heavily D2 LOD itemization. People hated D3 itemization but i don't know anyone who hated D1/D2 itemization.

    In regards to PVP......Diablo 3 had more official implemented PvP content than Diablo 2 ever had. Because Diablo 2 didn't have any. It had a toggle switch that made you attackable by other players. That's it. Diablo 3 had an actual arena. Diablo 3 players CHOOSE not to create a PvP scene. You know why?? 1.) The PvP enthusiasts for these types of games have a WAY over inflated perception of how many of them there are and 2.) Blizzard refused to balance the class skills around garbage PvP mechanics.

    Good. A toggle is all they should have in IV too. Path of Exile has no PvP scene to speak of. Grim Dawn doesn't even have it as an option, nor did Torchlight 2. Because everyone understands this isn't a PvP game. The Diablo 2 PvP crowd is a loud minority that back in the day mostly consisted of dupers wanting to one shot people in the Rogue Encampment. In Diablo 1 it was even worse. Guess what?? No one will toggle themselves on in Diablo IV either. Because 95% of the playerbase has no interest in it.

    The last thing we need in Diablo is skills like Frozen Orb getting nerfed because it's too powerful in PvP. Literally EVERY other Blizzard game has an extensive, compex PvP system. But apparently it's too much to ask that PvE players get even ONE franchise to themselves.

    JuliusBorisovBelleSorciereSkatan
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    edited November 2019
    Adul wrote: »
    I've always counted every Western RPG that isn't a CRPG (i.e. not focused on tactical fights) as ARPG. This includes everything from Diablo to Morrowind and beyond. There are subcategories for loot-centric ARPGs such as hack-and-slash and looter shooter.

    That's certainly valid as a personal definition, but in terms of game evolution since the 90s, it's not exactly accurate. Diablo essentially introduced the ARPG genre, and Diablo II made it much better. Everything that qualfies as ARPG since can trace influences back to that point.

    Not true. ARPGs are one thing. Isometric loot hunters clickers are a subgenre of ARPG.

    And D2 din't made it much better. D2 mainly post 1.10 runewords brought many problems and power creep to the game.
    Skatan wrote: »
    jjstraka34, people hated vanilla D3 because Jay Wilson ruined EVERYTHING. RoS saved part of itemization. Classic D2 is amazing. Legendaries are not broken OP on D1 and on D2 pre LoD

    If you see the interview of Jay "shut up pvp" Wilson, he criticizes heavily D2 LOD itemization. People hated D3 itemization but i don't know anyone who hated D1/D2 itemization.

    Some people might have hated D3 indeed, but they still have a failry good amount of players who play regularly, their expansions sold well and there are many who enjoy the streamlined mechanics and approach.

    You really should stop using your own personal opinions as some kind of truth.

    The expansion actually sold. poorly Even blizzard higher ups realized that D3 is broken beyond repair. "The overall sense on the team, at least in my impression, was that there was a vote of no confidence from the executive. They thought Diablo 3 was a giant f**k-up."" https://screenrant.com/diablo-3-second-expansion-canceled-explained/

    And Diablo 1 already had streamlined game mechanics.

    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    jjstraka34, people hated vanilla D3 because Jay Wilson ruined EVERYTHING. RoS saved part of itemization. Classic D2 is amazing. Legendaries are not broken OP on D1 and on D2 pre LoD

    If you see the interview of Jay "shut up pvp" Wilson, he criticizes heavily D2 LOD itemization. People hated D3 itemization but i don't know anyone who hated D1/D2 itemization.

    In regards to PVP......Diablo 3 had more official implemented PvP content than Diablo 2 ever had. Because Diablo 2 didn't have any. It had a toggle switch that made you attackable by other players. That's it. Diablo 3 had an actual arena. Diablo 3 players CHOOSE not to create a PvP scene. You know why?? 1.) The PvP enthusiasts for these types of games have a WAY over inflated perception of how many of them there are and 2.) Blizzard refused to balance the class skills around garbage PvP mechanics.


    As RPG codex review of Diablo 3

    "Last, but not least, comes the lack of a PvP mode. In the eyes of many players PvP was the gameplay mode of Diablo. People grinding experience for hours, collecting the best pieces of gear there were, coming up with countless builds - all this existed so you could test your prowess against another, presumably as clever and well-prepared human opponent. And it’s not there now. It’s pretty perplexing to see such an important part of the series' gameplay completely ignored. Granted, Blizzard promised to introduce PvP at a later point, but this still leads to doubts. First, as beta-tests have long passed by, who is going to ensure the balance between various load-outs? Secondly, some of the skill and rune effects already strike me as completely unsuitable for a PvP game. How are they going to be tailored to this mode without sacrificing the already established balance? Next, with the gameplay focused on the character’s gear and nothing else, it’s hard to imagine PvP being anything different than a fashion display in which whoever has better equipment wins. Finally, why should the player put up with a developer who releases an unfinished product?
    " https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8240

    This was before RoS powercreep. Now how have PvP when a GR 50 guy is hundreds of times stronger than a GR10 guy?????

    On steam top sellers of ARPG category > https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Action+RPG#p=0&tab=TopSellers

    You can see even Fallout New Vegas and Dark Souls 2 Sotfs

    Wikipedia isn't a primary source, and shouldn't be cited. Also, if you define ARPG that broadly, then you have zero standing to argue that Diablo III isn't an ARPG.

    Steam tags are user-defined.


    Any definition of ARPG consider Diablo as a subgenre of RPG. And Diablo 3 is not a ARPG because lacks the minimum of character development to be considered more RPG than Gauntlet...

    Since you don't like wikipedia, see the britannica encyclopedia https://www.britannica.com/topic/role-playing-video-game



    As for Path of Exile, do you know why there is PoE in the first place? Everyone hated D3 and PoE got crowdfunded by the old diablo fanbase. Like everyone hated D&D 4e who was heavily inspired on wow(3.5e was also inspired by video games, but was mostly 90s rpg's) and 5e despite being much more streamlined than pathfinder, returned to his roots.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,659
    edited November 2019
    When they say many players, they are, again, vastly overstating their own importance and numbers. The Diablo 2 PvP crowd would have you believe the game was nothing but Pking and duels. This is exactly what I would expect from the Codex. A site where, incidentally, they think so little of Diablo-type games that they didn't rank either 1 or 2 in their top 50 CRPGs, which is straight-up lunacy.

    If the PvP crowd was so important why has no other ARPG attempted to foster a PvP community in the years since?? And why has the Diablo 2 scene not continued to "thrive" in absence of these other options?? The answer is that a bunch of really vocal elitists think their niche experience was actually universal. Virtually none of the prominent Diablo 2 YouTube personalities focus on PvP. It is all builds, gear, loot hunting, and speed runs.

    I have the Diablo 2 manual in my hand. It is 120 pages long. There is exactly one paragraph about going hostile. The online aspect of the game was OVERWHELMINGLY designed to kill monsters cooperatively.

    Diablo IV should be like the first 3. An option to fight that has no bearing on the core gameplay. I don't even want a currency or crafting mats from player kills.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    JuliusBorisov
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    Any definition of ARPG consider Diablo as a subgenre of RPG. And Diablo 3 is not a ARPG because lacks the minimum of character development to be considered more RPG than Gauntlet...

    Since you don't like wikipedia, see the britannica encyclopedia https://www.britannica.com/topic/role-playing-video-game

    That article is about RPGs in general and mentions Diablo once in reference to it being action-oriented. It makes no other claims about ARPGs, and the first paragraph describes Diablo III to a T. Perhaps not to the degree you prefer, but it still fits. Diablo III is fully valid as an ARPG.
    As for Path of Exile, do you know why there is PoE in the first place? Everyone hated D3 and PoE got crowdfunded by the old diablo fanbase. Like everyone hated D&D 4e who was heavily inspired on wow(3.5e was also inspired by video games, but was mostly 90s rpg's) and 5e despite being much more streamlined than pathfinder, returned to his roots.

    I have no doubt people turned to Path of Exile because they felt Diablo III wasn't what they wanted in a game, but arguing about stuff that happened from 2007-2012 in 2019 when both games have been developed well beyond their initial design is pointless. The people who turned to PoE because they didn't like Diablo weren't reacting to Reaper of Souls + Necro + Adventure mode + Rifts + no AH + drops because that would have been physically and temporally impossible.

    I also don't really think you can reasonably claim that PoE's success was entirely or even mostly due to Diablo III, nor claim that it would not have been funded if Diablo III had been the platonic ideal of an ARPG. Path of Exile had already built up hype and interest for approximately two years prior to the crowdfunding campaign.

    Also, people compared D&D4e to WoW because they hated WoW, not because 4e was actually like WoW. It was actually a good game although definitely based on stuff that would work better in an RPG, and the only problem 4e had was that it replaced 3.5e in terms of publication. Had it been its own game, reception would have been more positive (although much less profitable).

    As far as PVP goes, it's always been my impression that the popular view of PVPers in Diablo and Diablo II was that they were by and large griefing town killing cheaters. I only recall positive comments about Diablo II's PVP as criticisms of Diablo III's lack of open world PVP, but the griefers did love to pull mobs into New Tristram until that loophole was closed off.


    JuliusBorisovSkatan
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    edited November 2019
    People compare D&D 4e and Diablo 3 to WoW exactly because they are extremely similar to WoW.

    Anyway, can you imagine a novel working in the same logic of D3/WoW???

    A master necromancer saying to his apprentice how he become a master


    Master -"i was defending the city. The undead attacking the city was too strong. One skeleton mage manages to incinerate my fire golem and i lost him, luckly, one of then died by my poison, so i found a amazing big and sharp axe and a amazing boot. That boot boosted my IQ by 646543*10²³ points and the big and sharp axe was so deadly that all of my skeletons become exponentially stronger. Then a single poison cloud casted by myself was destroying a lot of the enemy undead. But by no reason took a long time since i could only use this deadly poison once per a arbitrary amount o time. After i destroyed the skeleton army with my deadly poison, i found this amazing gloves who also boosts my iq by 765376537635 points and managed to get revenge upon my fire golem who was burned to death"

    Apprentice - Interesting, but where should we start to pratice and study?

    Master - Study? Practice? Are you crazy? Every necromancer in the world knows everything about necromancy and can animate the same amount of skeletons. The unique way to make your skeletons stronger is by finding a bigger and shaper axe. Now stop practicing your skills and go find a bigger and sharper axe, remember, without my boots/gloves, i will have the same IQ as you and my skeletons will be far weaker without this big and sharp axe also remember that you can only give a order to your skeleton once per a arbitrary amount of seconds"

    Adul
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,659
    I think we're all aware that weapon damage is a bit too prevalent in Diablo 3, and that skill points were missed by a sizable chunk of people. Which is why they are bringing them back. Diablo 2 wasn't like Diablo 1 either. There are no skill trees in first game. Ranks of spells are learned by reading the same book half a dozen times. This mechanic does not exist in the second game. Does anyone REALLY prefer getting Fire Wall to drop 5 times to placing points in it??

    BelleSorciereJuliusBorisovAdul
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    edited November 2019
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I think we're all aware that weapon damage is a bit too prevalent in Diablo 3, and that skill points were missed by a sizable chunk of people. Which is why they are bringing them back. Diablo 2 wasn't like Diablo 1 either. There are no skill trees in first game. Ranks of spells are learned by reading the same book half a dozen times. This mechanic does not exist in the second game. Does anyone REALLY prefer getting Fire Wall to drop 5 times to placing points in it??

    Not true. Each tome requires more magic. A warrior can learn lv 1 fireball without +stat bonus from gear(max = 50), but can't learn lv 2. There are no clear indication that is the same tome...

    As for Firewall, i love firewall on D1. Why? No cooldown. On D2, it had 1.4 seconds cooldown which is awful but on D3, is 8 seconds( https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_Death )....

    PS : My joke din't mentioned only WD. Also mentioned the stat sticky gear, lack of resistances/immunities and other post wow bs.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    People compare D&D 4e and Diablo 3 to WoW exactly because they are extremely similar to WoW.

    No, they're not. I'm familiar with D&D 4e, WoW, and Diablo III, and while 4e certainly has a lot of video game logic, it's not that specific. The only genuinely "WoW" thing I recall is reducing magic items to enchanting components.
    Anyway, can you imagine a novel working in the same logic of D3/WoW???

    This is specious. The vast majority of novels don't use game logic, regardless of setting. This is because medium makes a significant difference. Movies, television, plays, novels, etc. don't need to account for gameplay or separate gameplay from the narrative because there is no gameplay. Even in works based on games, this is typically the case.

    I don't even remember now why you turned a thread about Diablo IV into a complaint session about Diablo III, so it might be great to stop trying to convince everyone to agree with you on Diablo III's quality or genre.



  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    I look forward to the next update in a few months (February?) But I really like the sound of the skill system + talent system they talked about. I suspect it'll evolve more than a bit before launch, but the way they divided things seems promising.

    Moving away from the Nephalem is good, and I actually rather hope we see one or a few who turned to evil.

    I'm dubious as to the pale guy being Rathma.

    Lilith's definitely not acting in humanity's favor. Not sure if she still has the same goals she did during the Sin War or before she was first imprisoned, but if she is I imagine she sees humanity as pawns to deploy, not her grand x forever children.

    I know people are hoping for the necromancer in the initial release. I suspect, but am not positive, that as a consequence of things going to hell in Sanctuary, we might not see a paladin, crusader, or monk-type class. I do want an amazon- or assassin-style DPS class. The fifth could be anything, but I'm not holding out for anything at this point.

    SorcererV1ct0rJuliusBorisov
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    BelleSorciere, there are little to no "video game logic" on most pre wow RPG's... Overlord novel for example is a world extremely inspired by D&D and i don't see much "video game logic" moments on Overlord. Most 90s/earlier 00s games was much more close "live in a fantastic novel world" than just games and i love it about then. When i play Diablo 2 or Might & Magic VIII as a necromancer, i feel like i an living in another world and that i an a necromancer. Something that is impossible on D3 due his mechanics... Sure, there are some things that makes no sense. For eg, i can't use a bone wall to produce skeletons but can use insect swarm to produce skeletons...

    And i really wish that D4 becomes more akin to older games in that aspect.

    Dark Souls is the best game in the "linking" lore and gameplay. Even your revive has a lore explanation. Why souls can make you stronger and more intelligent has a lore explanation, a random ring says that a boss is blind? The boss is blind and you can use it in your favor.



    About how Lilith sees humanity, i strongly agree with you, she NEVER demonstrated motherly feelings about the humanity or succubi on Diablo lore

    For those who are interested, here is a playlist about Diablo lore
    Click here if the video won't load.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,616
    Isn't Diablo IV releasing for mobile platforms only, or did I misunderstand that? If there is no PC version, then I can ignore everything about it, as I won't be playing it. I don't even own a console or a mobile device that plays games.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,164
    Isn't Diablo IV releasing for mobile platforms only, or did I misunderstand that? If there is no PC version, then I can ignore everything about it, as I won't be playing it. I don't even own a console or a mobile device that plays games.

    No, that is Diablo Immortal. Blizzard had the """genial""" idea of announcing a mobile game in a place fulfilled with hardcore PC gamers...

    AdulBelgarathMTH
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    edited November 2019
    Adul wrote: »
    I've always counted every Western RPG that isn't a CRPG (i.e. not focused on tactical fights) as ARPG. This includes everything from Diablo to Morrowind and beyond. There are subcategories for loot-centric ARPGs such as hack-and-slash and looter shooter.

    That's certainly valid as a personal definition, but in terms of game evolution since the 90s, it's not exactly accurate. Diablo essentially introduced the ARPG genre, and Diablo II made it much better. Everything that qualfies as ARPG since can trace influences back to that point.

    Morrowind is not an ARPG. Neither are the Infinity Engine games, Neverwinter Nights, etc. By defining all western CRPGs as ARPGs the term has literally no meaning. And then you have Japanese games that are far closer to ARPG than any western CRPG, such as Dark Souls (although I don't think it's an ARPG either).

    You must have misunderstood what I said. I said I count every Western RPG video game that isn't a CRPG as an ARPG. So Western RPGs have two subcategories: CRPGs (tactical combat) and ARPGs (action combat). They're non-overlapping. ARPGs don't include any CRPGs, and vice-versa. (Though there could be hybrid games that I'd count as both, even though I cannot think of one at the moment.)

    Diablo is more definitive of the hack-and-slash and looter genres than of the umbrella genre ARPG. ARPG includes a lot more than just hack-and-slash games.

    I also count Morrowind and Dark Souls as ARPGs. So does Wikipedia. I know Wikipedia's not an authority, but it certainly shows that I'm not alone with this classification.

    The IE games and NWN aren't ARPGs, we can certainly agree there. Those are CRPGs.

    Post edited by Adul on
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
    edited November 2019
    Adul wrote: »

    You must have misunderstood what I said. I said I count every Western RPG video game that isn't a CRPG as an ARPG. So Western RPGs have two subcategories: CRPGs (tactical combat) and ARPGs (action combat). They're non-overlapping. ARPGs don't include any CRPGs, and vice-versa. (Though there could be hybrid games that I'd count as both, even though I cannot think of one at the moment.)

    Diablo is more definitive of the hack-and-slash and looter genres than of the umbrella genre ARPG. ARPG includes a lot more than just hack-and-slash games.

    Diablo literally introduced ARPGs, which are also the "hack-and-slash looter" genre. Before Diablo, there weren't ARPGs or anything recognized as such, even though Elder Scrolls: Arena and Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall came out close to the same time. No one then would have placed them into the same category, Morrowind is an evolution of those (although losing many features in the process).
    Adul wrote: »
    I also count Morrowind and Dark Souls as ARPGs. So does Wikipedia. I know Wikipedia's not an authority, but it certainly shows that I'm not alone with this classification.

    The IE games and NWN aren't ARPGs, we can certainly agree there. Those are CRPGs.

    Morrowind's an open world CRPG which uses numerous mechanics that undermine any claim to "action RPG." Dark Souls is its own genre, which was introduced with Demon's Souls. That's why we call games like Nioh, the Surge, Lords of the Fallen, Salt & Sanctuary, etc. "soulslikes" instead of "ARPGs." Or why From's games are often referred to as "Soulsborne" games. Also, this genre tends toward very tactical.

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    edited November 2019
    My argument has entered the Wikipedia quotebot phase:

    "Action role-playing video games (abbreviated action RPG or ARPG) are a subgenre of role-playing video games. The games emphasize real-time combat where the player has direct control over the characters as opposed to turn or menu-based combat."

    It just makes sense to use this classification. The "A" in ARPG stands for action. Every RPG that's action-oriented is an action RPG. It doesn't matter which game the first big ARPG was or what other subgenres that game belonged to.

    Would you accept the argument that The Great Train Robbery was the first big action movie, so only movies about train robberies are action movies?

  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,564
    Not to intrude on a debate, but I've always considered that the Zelda Franchise largely lines up as an ARPG. It's perhaps a little heavier on the A than the RPG, but I believe that it's generally considered to be an ARPG by society, and was around quite a long time before Diablo.

    So I dont think I'd ever say Diablo "invented" ARPGs.

    Adul
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    There were also plenty of huge Western ARPGs before Diablo, such as Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Arena... the list is enormous.

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