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Web too powerful

Hey all,

New here, decided to give this legendary game a try and haven't played it before. Not a total noob as played fantastic more recent RPGs like DAO, DOS, and NWN so excuse my unawareness.

Trying here solo and was looking good and very strong with Barbarian however I get systematically stopped at the Cloakwood second area with the spiders and the notorious Web traps.

The problem is two-fold. The barbarian class has no solution to the traps and more importantly the Web trap is way too powerful implemented. In fact it can decimate even a whole 6 party group.

I like the spell but is it should be relaxed. The immobility is okay and sound but the inability to retaliate melee or inability to shoot arrows or even cast spell just makes no sense. Why it this spell implemented so punishing ? Shouldn't the character at least be able to cast or fight from the immobile position ? This spell acts like a total paralysis.

So my Barbarian gets stopped solo there. Need a thief combo apparently, like FMT.

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Comments

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 719
    I don't play solo, but if I was trying to get a lone barbarian through the spider map in the Cloakwood, I'd try to get my hands on some potions of freedom, and/or a potion/ring of invisibility. Potions of freedom will make you immune to web. With invisibility, you can avoid the spiders all together. Even if you do trigger a web trap, nothing can see you to attack you and you can either wait until the effect ends or until you make your save and can start moving again.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,801
    @Soido The game is not designed for solo play. Its POSSIBLE if you really know what you are doing, but no single class has a solution or defense against every situation. The is designed to be tackled with a party of varied classes.

    StummvonBordwehrConjurerDragonQuartz
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 47
    Right is not designed as a solo but not excluding solo either.

    Drinking a pition of mobility assumes that you would be able to drink one. Alas you are paralyzed and can't drink one. Nor can cast invisibility, or drink invisible potion.

    See this is the problem with this spell. You can't do anything and that is not cool. It just eliminates any tactical solutions. You are done.

    1. This spell holds a very long time
    2. Has wide area, enough to paralyze 6 party group
    3. Hard to save against
    4. You cannot retaliate at least melee (like Blind allows)
    5. Is relatively fast cast and not enough to escape the area when you spot it coming
    6. The spell follows the target. If you are fast walker like Barbarian it leads to comical situation when the trap follows you from across the map, as if traps have eyes
    7. Is cheap level 2 spell

    I think this spell is misconfigured. It should be immobilize spell but nothing more. Cast it on tactical grounds. Immobilize the enemy, root him and shoot him to death from safe distance. Currently this is not a tactical spell, it is just doom and gloom spell.

  • dp85dp85 Member Posts: 10
    You're not wrong. Web's too strong both ways in these games. With a full party, it's usually too strong in the player's favor. With the soloing thing, because the game wasn't designed for that, it requires a lot of metagaming or, if it's your first playthrough, trial and error (ie. you need to know about the web traps beforehand even if your characters realistically don't).

    With the tactics things, I'll agree with you. Spells especially largely feel like they're designed with powergaming in mind, which is fine imo (spells should be powerful due to limited casts), but if you prefer more tactical combat like the Divinity OS games, you won't get it here without mods. Some other games around that time like Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale 2 handle the tactical combat aspects much better.

    SoidoQuartz
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 777
    I usually play solo, and will agree that the spell is annoying.

    I seldom play mages, thieves, bards, druid and priests so I get your drift.

    Mages and bards can use invisibility, priest and Druid can use the free action spell (level 4) and thieves can just disarm the trap.

    But warriors have other means.

    There is a ring of free action
    Dushai in Ulgoths Beard has it, you can kill her on site, or charm her and lead her away.
    Algernon in Beregost has a cloak that can cast the spell - kill him for his cloak
    Your reputation might take a dent...

    Otherwise there a potions of free action. Thalantyr has some and there is one in the valley of tombs.

    But actually I seldom use the tactics above. The web traps in cloak wood can be triggered without retaliation if you have killed the enemies first.
    The first web trap can be triggered once you have lured the two first spiders into attacking you. It takes some practice and have auto pause when enemy spotted active - and deactivate AI.
    Once the 2 first spiders are dead, you can trigger the trap and withdraw as soon it is triggered.

    There are some more traps on the map
    By the ettercaps. Use the same tactics as above. Lure the ettercaps too you, and kill all of them before triggering the trap and withdraw once the trap is triggered

    It takes practice, but once you got this, you can
    Clear the spider lair in the middle - it’s main treasure is a 2 handed sword +2 with free action
    And voila. Web is no longer a problem.

    But as said in the beginning. Web is damn annoying

    SoidoSkatan
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 47
    Here is a screenshot from my in-game showing you that Web is so powerful that a whole party gets paralyzed. Mind you that this party is level 6-7. All except the main Barbarian are paralyzed, some are even poisoned, one about to die just 15 seconds into the fight.

    The enemy is below average for this powerful party. As you can see these are one of the best NPCs rendered useless in a mediocre encounter.

    The party cannot do anything and just await its death. Probably matter of time the Barbarian gets paralyzed too, although for now he seems to be the only hope there.


    mng7sifczpt8.png

  • NoonNoon Member Posts: 185
    It doesn't look like a mediocre encounter then.
    The trick is to not trigger the traps. Let Coran in detect trap mod as soon as you spawn (by turning the ai off) and fight the ettercarps without moving (or barely) until you can see the traps.
    The cloakwood area is designed to be dangerous, even with good characters. There is no fun if it is easy.

    ConjurerDragonThacoBellsarevok57Quartz
  • AaezilAaezil Member Posts: 169
    You want to change the functionality of a spell in a 20 year old “6 man party style” dnd game because its too punishing for solo play?

    Yikes

    ConjurerDragonThacoBellQuartz
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 47
    I demonstrated in my screenshot that Web is not just a solo issue and can decimate a full party. I demonstrated that Web has some logical DnD problems, like the paralysis effect. You have a potion of mobility but unable to drink it when caught in the web. So something is amiss. Why would I carry and equip such a potion when it is too late to drink it ? It would be much more sense cool and fair to be able to do at least potion drinking or spell casting. Come on give me a standing chance with this spell.

    By the way I think Web was changed in later editions of DnD and was relaxed. I haven't played NWN long time so others could confirm this if possible but I don't remember such a severe penalty with Web when I played NWN.

    No I don't expect anyone to change the spell. You are right after 20 years it will remain as is. But please don't yikes at me for stating my opinion. If you have played Diablo 3 you should know that the developer often takes the community ideas seriously and changes the rules from season to season when something is reported as overly powerful in the builds. Of course Blizzard does appropriate testing as well to confirm.

    If changing the spell is too much to ask for, then how about we simply rename the spell from Web to Mass Paralysis ? Then there would be no questions asked :)

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 707
    The devs dont have permission to change the spell name or function that hard as i know.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 47
    Probably something along these lines. I read recently an interesting article about the development of BG3 by Larian. It appears that Larian had to obtain permission by Wizards of the Coast to make the sequel BG3 (proprietary rights). But more interestingly, and kinda on this topic exactly, the article mentioned that Larian insisted that some of the rules need to be changed because nowadays modern RPGs do not perform mechanically well under strict DnD rules. Very interesting to see how it will look like when they finish it.

    By the way I am waiting for another title to come out...been quite the wait so far. Wasteland 3. So I think in the next 1-2 years we are going to get 2 awesome isometric RPGs coming.

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,373
    Soido wrote: »
    Here is a screenshot from my in-game showing you that Web is so powerful that a whole party gets paralyzed. Mind you that this party is level 6-7. All except the main Barbarian are paralyzed, some are even poisoned, one about to die just 15 seconds into the fight.

    The enemy is below average for this powerful party. As you can see these are one of the best NPCs rendered useless in a mediocre encounter.

    The party cannot do anything and just await its death. Probably matter of time the Barbarian gets paralyzed too, although for now he seems to be the only hope there.
    mng7sifczpt8.png

    All of the encounters where the party is waylaid in Cloakwood are designed to be tough and there is a good chance that the first time you play you are going to lose some characters to poisoning by wyverns, giant spiders or ettercaps. However, in every case the encounter is simple to survive once you know what to do. You just need to head straight for the left edge of the map as soon as the encounter starts and you can escape before any of the enemies can attack. In the case of the ettercaps, by running away you will spring the trap but even though the web fires you will be able to reach the map edge before it takes effect.

    StummvonBordwehrSkatanQuartz
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 47
    Yes I fell into the traps like a noob. It was first time I visited Cloakwood with my solo Barbarian and I just did not expect so many Webs there. And I did not even know these are traps, I thought the spiders are causing it or that it is just designed Webs.

    Then I decided to call in the whole party the heavy artillery and only then I first realized that the whole wood area is trapped. Coran the thief spotted them. Wow up to that point I was clearing forests with no difficulty with my Barbarian and never saw traps inside forests, never expected a trap in a forest so I initially rushed the area....lol only to fall into the traps like a noob. I usually am trained to expect traps in dungeons but a forest surprised me and that's why I was totally unprepared to deal with that situation.

    Maybe will attempt a FMT solo next. But unwillingly, I prefer the Barbarian because of the speed factor movement, fast and brutal fighter with maces with comfortable tons of health. But I came to a point where I see his limitations. So FMT next. Or as someone suggested above, a 2H sword apparently is available in the east woods of the map which give complete immunity to Web. So I can grab that sword, equip it (no need to specialize, just equip is enough) for the immunity. Once I get out of the Web area I can re-switch to my specialized maces.

    Permidion_Stark
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,373
    edited November 24
    @Soido If you are playing an FMT there is a Ring of Free Action (called Edventar's Gift) that you can get very early in the game if you have got decent pickpocketing skills.
    It is in the possession of a gnome called Dushai in Ulgoth's Beard. You can get there easily by casting invisibility on yourself to get past the Ankhegs north of the Friendly Arm Inn.

    Even when I am in theory soloing I often 'pay' a bard or thief to acquire it for me (I take them into the party just to get the ring and give them a major magic item for their troubles). I play with a tweak that moves the locations of various NPCs so that they can be acquired earlier so I generally use Eldoth to perform the task. I've even done it when playing as a Cavalier, which is fairly ridiculous I know but I can persuade myself that Eldoth stole the ring and sold it to me without me knowing where it came from.

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,373
    Just to derail the thread a bit, it has always seemed a bit strange to me that thieves are able to disarm spiders' web traps. I mean how do they do it? And don't spiders hunt by vibration rather than sight, so if someone is tampering with your web aren't you going to scuttle over and see what is going on?

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,408
    edited November 30
    Your barbarian has a solution to get through there. Thalantyr sells a few Potions of Free Action. Also, you can go to Ulgoth's Beard and buy a Greenstone Amulet. I think that merchant may also have some Potions of Free Action, but I'm not sure. There are also Rings of Free Action around if you know how to get them.

    Soloing requires some metaknowledge, as you have to know what the game is going to do to try to kill you so you can have the right countermeasures available at the right time, and you have to know where to go and what to do to obtain those countermeasures.

    As you've pointed out, that spider map is going to kill even a full party if the player isn't aware of the danger and ready with a solution. Each of the encounters is like a puzzle you have to solve. The answers are there in the game, but it's not always easy to figure it out. The game was designed to kill the new player many times over, and require a lot of saving and reloading to figure things out. It was a different time, and that's how games were made and what players expected back then.

    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
    JuliusBorisovdunbar
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 868
    Soido wrote: »
    I like the spell but is it should be relaxed. The immobility is okay and sound but the inability to retaliate melee or inability to shoot arrows or even cast spell just makes no sense. Why it this spell implemented so punishing ? Shouldn't the character at least be able to cast or fight from the immobile position ? This spell acts like a total paralysis.

    For a level 2 spell, it sure is damn powerful. But I'd say it makes perfect sense that you can't shoot arrows or fling spells when you're covered in a big ball of gluey fibers.

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,373
    Your barbarian has a solution to get through there. Thalantyr sells a few Potions of Free Action. Also, you can go to Ulgoth's Beard and buy a Greenstone Amulet.

    Whilst the Greenstone Amulet protects you from being held (and other forms of paralysis) it doesn't protect you from a web - so if you are relying on it you are going to come to a sticky end.

    BelgarathMTH
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,079
    JoenSo wrote: »
    Soido wrote: »
    I like the spell but is it should be relaxed. The immobility is okay and sound but the inability to retaliate melee or inability to shoot arrows or even cast spell just makes no sense. Why it this spell implemented so punishing ? Shouldn't the character at least be able to cast or fight from the immobile position ? This spell acts like a total paralysis.

    For a level 2 spell, it sure is damn powerful. But I'd say it makes perfect sense that you can't shoot arrows or fling spells when you're covered in a big ball of gluey fibers.

    That tends to be how immobilizing effects in general work.

    Not like you can do all that stuff when held or stunned or asleep but the webs are uniquely debilitating.

    The only thing they have that really gives web a leg up over any of the other similar spells of its level is the -2 penalty to your saving throw, which is nothing to sneeze at but it's not like it's outlandish or crazy or anything.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 47
    A few questions

    1. Are these ankegg beatable by a Barbarian level 7 ? For meta gaming purposes I play the Barbarian a dumb guy who gets easily enranged and charges at everything that crosses his path, even Flamefist Guards. He does not accept the option to retreat. Because he is dumb. He often enters inns and rooms asking the customers directly if they have any valuables hidden in that chest in the room and is not very polite guy.
    2. How much pickpocketing is needed to rob the gnome Dushai ? I might try it with Garrick, or Selana.
    3. The Spider Bane, is this guarded by Spiders ? Are there any Webs there ? I think I have scouted spiders there in one of my initial experimental rolls. If there are Webs there would be counter productive and difficult getting the sword.
    4. In general, how do you justify going north of Friendly Arms Inn early in the game ? Do you go to the city of Baldur's Gate that early and at which point usually ? I haven't been there because I expect the main guest to send me there so what business do I have there early ? This is for Dushai's ring.
    5. The greenstone amulet, so it is a charge. Is the charge immediate effect or has a delay ? But seems like pickpocketing is the preferred way.

    I have no problem bringing the party, need not be 100% solo. The reason I play soli Barbarian is to speed up the process. I can't be bothered bringing a whole party for mediocre enemies. But no problem to bring them for a boss fight. Edwin scouted the Coakwood invisible and I saw there is a boss fight in a cave - 2 sword spiders, 2 ettercaps, 2 giant spiders, and something looking like a broodmother. That is no fight for solo Barbarian so my party is always geared up and ready to be called in.

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,373
    1. A 7th level Barbarian shouldn't have much trouble in defeating an Ankheg. The only real problem occurs when you encounter two at once (which generally only happens in one area of the map). They can do a lot of damage and you can find your hit points suddenly disappearing rapidly. But the good news is you don't have to stand and fight them, you can just run past. You can probably get across the whole map without getting hit at all.
    2. You need 60 in pickpocketing to get the ring off Dushai. Bear in mind though that you can still fail and if you do she will turn hostile and start chucking spells at you. However, if that happens you can just run away, get your thief to steal Algernon's Cloak, go back and charm her and then try again. Once the charm has worn off she will turn hostile again but you can easily lead her to a secluded part of the map and leave her there and she won't trouble you again. Algernon's Cloak can be obtained by pickpocketing
    the fat guy upstairs in Feldepost's Inn in Beregost
    3. Spider's Bane itself isn't actually guarded by any webs but there are some quite nasty critters defending it (and you will have to get past some other webs to get to its location). The sword is in
    the cave you scouted with Edwin
    4. In RP terms I can't really justify stealing Dushai's ring. There is no way you would know she possesses it so unless you are a thief who pickpockets everyone in sight it is unlikely you would ever obtain it. I justify going north by the fact that most of the characters I play have zero interest in solving the iron crisis and are likely to ignore any advice Gorion gave them.
    5. There is a slight delay with activating the Greenstone Amulet and it taking effect. But it won't protect you from webs in any case. It protects against hold, stun, charm and other mind affecting spells but won't stop you getting stuck in a web. It is however well worth buying because it makes fights against spellcasters much easier and protects you against sirines and the like.

    Grond0StummvonBordwehr
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 47
    edited November 24
    I tested the suggestions. So a few things

    1. The Ankhegs are no match for a solo Barbarian. That is good. At level 7 he has THACO 8/10 (6/8 enraged) with damage +11 on maces so they fall very quickly (3-4 hits)
    2. The Greenstone Amulet does NOT protect against the hold effect of Web. Still getting paralyzed.
    3. Pick-pocketing the gnome Dushai requires two successful attempts in a row (yes 60-65 is enough). But it requires two attempts because the gnome holds two items and the ring is queued as the second item. However, if you fail stealing, killing the gnome does NOT aggravate the villagers and he drops the ring. But he has a quest so the quest has to be solved before robbing/killing him. Yes I agree there are some role-playing issues with that.

    So after all this discussion it appears the most reasonable and acceptable way is to bring Coran and the whole party in the Cloakwood and let Coran do his job. Soloing that area Barbarian proves challenging or requires messing up with the rpg storyline elements too much and rushing to Uthgard. Not ideal RPG experience rushing to Uthgard.

    EDIT: I still think something is not right with Web. Because one of the Rage immunities states "protection against hold". Web does several things, and hold is one of them. You can notice in the log in-game that when you get webbed the log says "status:Held". It does NOT say "Webbed", or "Entangled" telling you that this is a new kind of effect; rather it suggests it is a hold effect which Barbarian is supposed to be immune against. This could be some kind of bug or a miscommunication as the implementation suggests that Web must be a new stronger kind of effect and not just a hold.

    EDIT2: One possible explanation might be that Rage makes you immune to what looks like mind-related effects. Holds, charms, confusions, which come through attacking the mind. So the Barbarian is immune to mind affects as he enters a raging mental state. Web on the other hand does not affect the mind, it is rather a physical type of attack and entanglement.

    Post edited by Soido on
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,373
    Soido wrote: »
    EDIT: I still think something is not right with Web. Because one of the Rage immunities states "protection against hold". Web does several things, and hold is one of them. You can notice in the log in-game that when you get webbed the log says "status:Held". It does NOT say "Webbed", or "Entangled" telling you that this is a new kind of effect; rather it suggests it is a hold effect which Barbarian is supposed to be immune against. This could be some kind of bug.

    I don't think it is a bug, it is just that there are two different states both of which are referred to as being 'held'. One is the effect that is caused by the hold person spell and the other is the effect of the web spell. What the rage effect and the Greenstone Amulet protect you against are the former but you need Free Action (from a spell, potion or item) to protect you from the latter. Basically rage stops someone controlling your mind while Free Action prevents someone from controlling your body.

    SoidoThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,079
    I think an ideal implementation of the barbarian rage would protect you from more effects as you level.

    So early on it'd protect you from like minor mental magics and stuff, but as you got stronger it would go into "The Bars! They Bend and Twist with my Berserker Strength!" territory, as it becomes progressively harder to stop or contain you.

    Under that implementation I think it would eventually protect against stuff like Spider Webs.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • BelacRLJBelacRLJ Member Posts: 45
    Web's usefulness is also limited by its power. Not party-friendly, not really useful indoors due to its large area of effect, requires use of ranged weapons to take out the enemy (thus not useful against enemies with certain immunities). Allows a save each round, thus can't reliably shut creatures down long-term.

    I generally prefer Horror/Glitterdust for my anti-mob 2nd-level arcane spells, for that reason.

    If it's being cast on you, the web itself can be outrun if you see it coming, and if you adopt a loose formation you can easily save the majority of your party. For a solo run, it's practical to acquire at least consumable immunity to most harmful status effects, including this one.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 47
    Glitterdust is good, a mass blind plus more benefits. But enemies can cast and fight if you stand right next to them !

    Horror, I don't like it much. Makes me chase them across the map and sometimes aggro more enemies.

  • PingwinPingwin Member Posts: 228
    You want Horror for enclosed spaces where you don't have the space to use other spells without hitting your own party.

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