Web too powerful
Soido
Member Posts: 344
Hey all,
New here, decided to give this legendary game a try and haven't played it before. Not a total noob as played fantastic more recent RPGs like DAO, DOS, and NWN so excuse my unawareness.
Trying here solo and was looking good and very strong with Barbarian however I get systematically stopped at the Cloakwood second area with the spiders and the notorious Web traps.
The problem is two-fold. The barbarian class has no solution to the traps and more importantly the Web trap is way too powerful implemented. In fact it can decimate even a whole 6 party group.
I like the spell but is it should be relaxed. The immobility is okay and sound but the inability to retaliate melee or inability to shoot arrows or even cast spell just makes no sense. Why it this spell implemented so punishing ? Shouldn't the character at least be able to cast or fight from the immobile position ? This spell acts like a total paralysis.
So my Barbarian gets stopped solo there. Need a thief combo apparently, like FMT.
New here, decided to give this legendary game a try and haven't played it before. Not a total noob as played fantastic more recent RPGs like DAO, DOS, and NWN so excuse my unawareness.
Trying here solo and was looking good and very strong with Barbarian however I get systematically stopped at the Cloakwood second area with the spiders and the notorious Web traps.
The problem is two-fold. The barbarian class has no solution to the traps and more importantly the Web trap is way too powerful implemented. In fact it can decimate even a whole 6 party group.
I like the spell but is it should be relaxed. The immobility is okay and sound but the inability to retaliate melee or inability to shoot arrows or even cast spell just makes no sense. Why it this spell implemented so punishing ? Shouldn't the character at least be able to cast or fight from the immobile position ? This spell acts like a total paralysis.
So my Barbarian gets stopped solo there. Need a thief combo apparently, like FMT.
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Comments
Drinking a pition of mobility assumes that you would be able to drink one. Alas you are paralyzed and can't drink one. Nor can cast invisibility, or drink invisible potion.
See this is the problem with this spell. You can't do anything and that is not cool. It just eliminates any tactical solutions. You are done.
1. This spell holds a very long time
2. Has wide area, enough to paralyze 6 party group
3. Hard to save against
4. You cannot retaliate at least melee (like Blind allows)
5. Is relatively fast cast and not enough to escape the area when you spot it coming
6. The spell follows the target. If you are fast walker like Barbarian it leads to comical situation when the trap follows you from across the map, as if traps have eyes
7. Is cheap level 2 spell
I think this spell is misconfigured. It should be immobilize spell but nothing more. Cast it on tactical grounds. Immobilize the enemy, root him and shoot him to death from safe distance. Currently this is not a tactical spell, it is just doom and gloom spell.
A solo barbarian must rely on meta knowledge and bring the appropriate potions along that would protect you from the various effects the game throws at you.
The game was written in the expectation that you would bring a full party and that you would have to reload a bunch of times.
If you stray off the path and go to Mutamin's Garden without understanding what monsters live there, your party will probably be annihilated.
The easiest way to defend yourself against Web is, as @OrlonKronsteen has pointed out, the Potion of Freedom (to be drunk before you get stuck in the web). There are other means and if you like two-handed swords you will find one such means in the very spider-infested area of the cloakwood forest that you are currently struggling with.
With the tactics things, I'll agree with you. Spells especially largely feel like they're designed with powergaming in mind, which is fine imo (spells should be powerful due to limited casts), but if you prefer more tactical combat like the Divinity OS games, you won't get it here without mods. Some other games around that time like Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale 2 handle the tactical combat aspects much better.
I seldom play mages, thieves, bards, druid and priests so I get your drift.
Mages and bards can use invisibility, priest and Druid can use the free action spell (level 4) and thieves can just disarm the trap.
But warriors have other means.
There is a ring of free action
Algernon in Beregost has a cloak that can cast the spell - kill him for his cloak
Your reputation might take a dent...
Otherwise there a potions of free action. Thalantyr has some and there is one in the valley of tombs.
But actually I seldom use the tactics above. The web traps in cloak wood can be triggered without retaliation if you have killed the enemies first.
Once the 2 first spiders are dead, you can trigger the trap and withdraw as soon it is triggered.
There are some more traps on the map
It takes practice, but once you got this, you can
But as said in the beginning. Web is damn annoying
The enemy is below average for this powerful party. As you can see these are one of the best NPCs rendered useless in a mediocre encounter.
The party cannot do anything and just await its death. Probably matter of time the Barbarian gets paralyzed too, although for now he seems to be the only hope there.
The trick is to not trigger the traps. Let Coran in detect trap mod as soon as you spawn (by turning the ai off) and fight the ettercarps without moving (or barely) until you can see the traps.
The cloakwood area is designed to be dangerous, even with good characters. There is no fun if it is easy.
Yikes
By the way I think Web was changed in later editions of DnD and was relaxed. I haven't played NWN long time so others could confirm this if possible but I don't remember such a severe penalty with Web when I played NWN.
No I don't expect anyone to change the spell. You are right after 20 years it will remain as is. But please don't yikes at me for stating my opinion. If you have played Diablo 3 you should know that the developer often takes the community ideas seriously and changes the rules from season to season when something is reported as overly powerful in the builds. Of course Blizzard does appropriate testing as well to confirm.
If changing the spell is too much to ask for, then how about we simply rename the spell from Web to Mass Paralysis ? Then there would be no questions asked
By the way I am waiting for another title to come out...been quite the wait so far. Wasteland 3. So I think in the next 1-2 years we are going to get 2 awesome isometric RPGs coming.
It's certainly a powerful spell, but as others have said there are ways to deal with it. Apart from free action or invisibility there are more specialist methods (like mustard jelly or spider form), as well as boosting saving throws. Unlike paralysis, you get regular chances to break free of a web, so saving throws are important even if you happen to fail the first of those.
More relevant I think is the way you set up and explore with your party. Using a scout to see what's coming up rather than moving all your party into un-scouted territory will avoid the vast majority of encounters becoming dangerous for your PC (who should not be the scout if you don't have meta-knowledge of what to expect). There are a few situations where you might be caught out anyway (and that web-trap in an ambush area you've taken a screenshot from is one of those). However, those reflect the different philosophy that applied to games 20 years ago - it's expected that you will die on a number of occasions before you gain the knowledge and experience required to play safely.
All of the encounters where the party is waylaid in Cloakwood are designed to be tough and there is a good chance that the first time you play you are going to lose some characters to poisoning by wyverns, giant spiders or ettercaps. However, in every case the encounter is simple to survive once you know what to do. You just need to head straight for the left edge of the map as soon as the encounter starts and you can escape before any of the enemies can attack. In the case of the ettercaps, by running away you will spring the trap but even though the web fires you will be able to reach the map edge before it takes effect.
Then I decided to call in the whole party the heavy artillery and only then I first realized that the whole wood area is trapped. Coran the thief spotted them. Wow up to that point I was clearing forests with no difficulty with my Barbarian and never saw traps inside forests, never expected a trap in a forest so I initially rushed the area....lol only to fall into the traps like a noob. I usually am trained to expect traps in dungeons but a forest surprised me and that's why I was totally unprepared to deal with that situation.
Maybe will attempt a FMT solo next. But unwillingly, I prefer the Barbarian because of the speed factor movement, fast and brutal fighter with maces with comfortable tons of health. But I came to a point where I see his limitations. So FMT next. Or as someone suggested above, a 2H sword apparently is available in the east woods of the map which give complete immunity to Web. So I can grab that sword, equip it (no need to specialize, just equip is enough) for the immunity. Once I get out of the Web area I can re-switch to my specialized maces.
Even when I am in theory soloing I often 'pay' a bard or thief to acquire it for me (I take them into the party just to get the ring and give them a major magic item for their troubles). I play with a tweak that moves the locations of various NPCs so that they can be acquired earlier so I generally use Eldoth to perform the task. I've even done it when playing as a Cavalier, which is fairly ridiculous I know but I can persuade myself that Eldoth stole the ring and sold it to me without me knowing where it came from.
I'm not 100% sure but that first web trap in Cloakwood, if you have someone scouting ahead, I think they'll spot the spiders on the other side of the trap before triggering the trap. Charging into melee with even the weakest spiders is generally a bad idea in case they get lucky and land a poison bite so I'd have thought for most parties who have failed to spot the trap, the way that encounter plays out is you fill the spiders with arrows, then blunder into the trap and you just have to wait for it to wear off. Then you continue on with the knowledge that the rest of the area is potentially trapped.
Soloing requires some metaknowledge, as you have to know what the game is going to do to try to kill you so you can have the right countermeasures available at the right time, and you have to know where to go and what to do to obtain those countermeasures.
As you've pointed out, that spider map is going to kill even a full party if the player isn't aware of the danger and ready with a solution. Each of the encounters is like a puzzle you have to solve. The answers are there in the game, but it's not always easy to figure it out. The game was designed to kill the new player many times over, and require a lot of saving and reloading to figure things out. It was a different time, and that's how games were made and what players expected back then.
For a level 2 spell, it sure is damn powerful. But I'd say it makes perfect sense that you can't shoot arrows or fling spells when you're covered in a big ball of gluey fibers.
Whilst the Greenstone Amulet protects you from being held (and other forms of paralysis) it doesn't protect you from a web - so if you are relying on it you are going to come to a sticky end.
That tends to be how immobilizing effects in general work.
Not like you can do all that stuff when held or stunned or asleep but the webs are uniquely debilitating.
The only thing they have that really gives web a leg up over any of the other similar spells of its level is the -2 penalty to your saving throw, which is nothing to sneeze at but it's not like it's outlandish or crazy or anything.
1. Are these ankegg beatable by a Barbarian level 7 ? For meta gaming purposes I play the Barbarian a dumb guy who gets easily enranged and charges at everything that crosses his path, even Flamefist Guards. He does not accept the option to retreat. Because he is dumb. He often enters inns and rooms asking the customers directly if they have any valuables hidden in that chest in the room and is not very polite guy.
2. How much pickpocketing is needed to rob the gnome Dushai ? I might try it with Garrick, or Selana.
3. The Spider Bane, is this guarded by Spiders ? Are there any Webs there ? I think I have scouted spiders there in one of my initial experimental rolls. If there are Webs there would be counter productive and difficult getting the sword.
4. In general, how do you justify going north of Friendly Arms Inn early in the game ? Do you go to the city of Baldur's Gate that early and at which point usually ? I haven't been there because I expect the main guest to send me there so what business do I have there early ? This is for Dushai's ring.
5. The greenstone amulet, so it is a charge. Is the charge immediate effect or has a delay ? But seems like pickpocketing is the preferred way.
I have no problem bringing the party, need not be 100% solo. The reason I play soli Barbarian is to speed up the process. I can't be bothered bringing a whole party for mediocre enemies. But no problem to bring them for a boss fight. Edwin scouted the Coakwood invisible and I saw there is a boss fight in a cave - 2 sword spiders, 2 ettercaps, 2 giant spiders, and something looking like a broodmother. That is no fight for solo Barbarian so my party is always geared up and ready to be called in.
2. You need 60 in pickpocketing to get the ring off Dushai. Bear in mind though that you can still fail and if you do she will turn hostile and start chucking spells at you. However, if that happens you can just run away, get your thief to steal Algernon's Cloak, go back and charm her and then try again. Once the charm has worn off she will turn hostile again but you can easily lead her to a secluded part of the map and leave her there and she won't trouble you again. Algernon's Cloak can be obtained by pickpocketing
5. There is a slight delay with activating the Greenstone Amulet and it taking effect. But it won't protect you from webs in any case. It protects against hold, stun, charm and other mind affecting spells but won't stop you getting stuck in a web. It is however well worth buying because it makes fights against spellcasters much easier and protects you against sirines and the like.
1. The Ankhegs are no match for a solo Barbarian. That is good. At level 7 he has THACO 8/10 (6/8 enraged) with damage +11 on maces so they fall very quickly (3-4 hits)
2. The Greenstone Amulet does NOT protect against the hold effect of Web. Still getting paralyzed.
3. Pick-pocketing the gnome Dushai requires two successful attempts in a row (yes 60-65 is enough). But it requires two attempts because the gnome holds two items and the ring is queued as the second item. However, if you fail stealing, killing the gnome does NOT aggravate the villagers and he drops the ring. But he has a quest so the quest has to be solved before robbing/killing him. Yes I agree there are some role-playing issues with that.
So after all this discussion it appears the most reasonable and acceptable way is to bring Coran and the whole party in the Cloakwood and let Coran do his job. Soloing that area Barbarian proves challenging or requires messing up with the rpg storyline elements too much and rushing to Uthgard. Not ideal RPG experience rushing to Uthgard.
EDIT: I still think something is not right with Web. Because one of the Rage immunities states "protection against hold". Web does several things, and hold is one of them. You can notice in the log in-game that when you get webbed the log says "status:Held". It does NOT say "Webbed", or "Entangled" telling you that this is a new kind of effect; rather it suggests it is a hold effect which Barbarian is supposed to be immune against. This could be some kind of bug or a miscommunication as the implementation suggests that Web must be a new stronger kind of effect and not just a hold.
EDIT2: One possible explanation might be that Rage makes you immune to what looks like mind-related effects. Holds, charms, confusions, which come through attacking the mind. So the Barbarian is immune to mind affects as he enters a raging mental state. Web on the other hand does not affect the mind, it is rather a physical type of attack and entanglement.
I don't think it is a bug, it is just that there are two different states both of which are referred to as being 'held'. One is the effect that is caused by the hold person spell and the other is the effect of the web spell. What the rage effect and the Greenstone Amulet protect you against are the former but you need Free Action (from a spell, potion or item) to protect you from the latter. Basically rage stops someone controlling your mind while Free Action prevents someone from controlling your body.
So early on it'd protect you from like minor mental magics and stuff, but as you got stronger it would go into "The Bars! They Bend and Twist with my Berserker Strength!" territory, as it becomes progressively harder to stop or contain you.
Under that implementation I think it would eventually protect against stuff like Spider Webs.
I generally prefer Horror/Glitterdust for my anti-mob 2nd-level arcane spells, for that reason.
If it's being cast on you, the web itself can be outrun if you see it coming, and if you adopt a loose formation you can easily save the majority of your party. For a solo run, it's practical to acquire at least consumable immunity to most harmful status effects, including this one.
Horror, I don't like it much. Makes me chase them across the map and sometimes aggro more enemies.