Huh, I don't know about companion spoilers, but so far (I have 30 hours in the game):
I would definitely say that a paladin, a ranged monk, a witch girl, a cleric definitely look, speak and behave like good characters. There is also a neutral thief who behaves, well, neutrally and reminds me of a mix of Leliana, Zevran and your favourite goody puppy. There is also a neutral mage fitting any party.
As I understand, I will meet another good character later.
I would say it's more than enough for a good team.
Based upon what I've read there seem to be three good npcs and one npc that can be convinced to become good, whilst seven npcs are evil or can become evil with some convincing. Seems a bit odd for a crusade against evil and like the devs remembered and took personally the lack of evil npcs in bg2 vs the number of good ones. Not sure I want to play when there aren't even enough good npcs to form a team.
I can understand why someone might think this. I will say that this game is very (VERY) grimdark at times. Like... yikes. I personally love it, and think it fits when fighting demons and cultists, but it does create an environment/atmosphere that allows for some NPCs to stretch their legs in less than "Good aligned" ways, even when they seem to be fairly good people at other times.
Based upon what I've read there seem to be three good npcs and one npc that can be convinced to become good, whilst seven npcs are evil or can become evil with some convincing. Seems a bit odd for a crusade against evil and like the devs remembered and took personally the lack of evil npcs in bg2 vs the number of good ones. Not sure I want to play when there aren't even enough good npcs to form a team.
I do not think it´s a crusade against evil, it´s a crusade against pure chaos. Your allies are the ultra-lawful hellknights, devils from hell, Aions, elder fay, reformed demons, non-chromatic dragons, etc
wich are not the nicest people in the world =D
You could do pretty awful things to achieve your goals, but mendelevian crusaders have some rules that could cause that you´ll be punished if you break them.
That could explain why so many evil or neutral companions fit perfectly in the fifth crusade army. you cannot have all the companions at the same time or in the same run. Two companions are only for evil playthroughs and some companions leave if you choose the evil or lawful mythic paths.
If you pick the most extreme paths some companions abandone you. you will have to fight alone or make a party of undead or mercenaries if you do not have the means to convince some of the npcs to follow your ways. That is why you can turn several of them to the dark side and you only need to turn one of the evil guys to goodness.
That said, You have a paladin, a monk, a good witch (her patron is an empyreal), a cleric of Shelyn and
Arueshelae and Nenio,
that, despite their alignment, they are good gals (you only have to check the dialogues) unless you corrupted them, plus the other neutral ones so I do not think you have a problem if you want to make an all-good party.
Daeran is great. Sosiel... less so. I'm guessing the majority of those romances will be for Daeran : P
I´ll go for a 80% daeran 20% Sosiel... =D Daeran is a very charismatic character for many. I had him in all my parties and he is the nicest not-nice person in all of them.
Sosiel is.. uh, I think the name says all. Soso él
@PsicoVic I'm not really sure how one would reach that interpretation. Its literally an army raised by the church fighting against an invasion of demons from Hell. Its literally THE classic good vs. evil trope. The existence of mercenaries and other entities in your army who recognize the danger this poses doesn't somehow make it morally ambiguous.
@PsicoVic I'm not really sure how one would reach that interpretation. Its literally an army raised by the church fighting against an invasion of demons from Hell. Its literally THE classic good vs. evil trope. The existence of mercenaries and other entities in your army who recognize the danger this poses doesn't somehow make it morally ambiguous.
A question, are you playing the game?
Because @PsicoVic is actually exactly right. The game goes to great lengths to just to explain why the crusade in the worldwound isnt just a "Good vs Evil" trope, but is actually a collection of factions that all have their own reasons for participating. In that collection you can certainly find the pious do-gooders like Crusaders, but then you also find Hellknights who would happily sacrifice many many innocents in order to achieve a tactically significant victory.
One of the stronger narrative aspects Owlcat has managed in all of this is that they've made you feel like ANY character to roll and bring can be a commander in the Crusade. They needed to find a way to allow you to transform your character in a Lich and still have it make sense that you're a part of the crusade.
They dont execute perfectly on this point, but they do a damn good job. Better than I expected, if I am being honest.
@PsicoVic I'm not really sure how one would reach that interpretation. Its literally an army raised by the church fighting against an invasion of demons from Hell. Its literally THE classic good vs. evil trope. The existence of mercenaries and other entities in your army who recognize the danger this poses doesn't somehow make it morally ambiguous.
It is not an invasion of demons from hell. They are from the Abyss
In Golarion, lawful devils are from the plane of hell. Chaotic demons are from another plane, called Abyss. To keep it short, souls of the worst sinners were sent to that plane by Pharasma, they became larvae. It was a plane first inhabited by the Qlippoth, but some experiments made by the Daemons fused larvae and qlippoth, causing the apparition of entities of pure chaos, the demons. A demon fights its way until they evolve into more and more vicious forms until they became a full demon and even more powerful entities. The most powerful of them became Demon lords. When they finished to violently get free of the Daemons and almost wipe out the qlippoth of the plane they started to find new places to corrupt. They are basically enemies of almost any other creatures in existence, and most of the time, demon lords are also enemies between them.
The Worldwound opened a direct way to this plane and Sarkoris, in Golarion; with the consequences you can imagine...
Demons and devils (and Daemons or the Qlippoth) hate each other. So the devils from hell (and the diabolist nation of Cheliax and his Hellknights) are supporting the crusade, among many others, for plenty of reasons. And I assure you, the crusaders are not the most virtuous of the lot, mainly the opposite most of the time.
As @BallpointMan pointed out, the game shows that it´s a battle between Order and Chaos, with factions from all the axis good-evil in between. So you can roleplay any character and having reasons to fight the Deskarites. Good guys may want to save the people, evil guys want to survive, neutral characters may want to stop the demons to tear apart the barriers of the reality.
Ingame it makes sense that even a Liche or a Demon are fighting Deskari and Areelu´s schemes.
@JuliusBorisov If someone wants to make a specifically good-aligned team, neutral characters don't really cut it.
One word. Jaheira. She's an essential part of any good-aligned team. And she behaves, at least according to some players, like a good character. So the written alignment sometimes doesn't mean a lot.
Can you also call Jan not good enough for a good party? Or Neera? Or Wilson? If you tell me Wilson doesn't fit a good party, I'll growl.
__
Also, if the player really wants, they can include custom-made companions, and for that, they don't need to start the game anew (unlike original BG).
Jaheira was alignment restricted to true neutral as a druid.
It's not about whether the people you mention are "good" enough (though apart from Jaheira I think BG gets the alignment of the npcs pretty well right), the point is this is the first game I think I've ever played where you can't field, or it is very difficult to field, a full team of npcs that are "good" according to their ingame behaviour and their character sheets. Which I maintain is weird in any d&d title with apparently about 16 joinable npcs. This is before you consider you are fighting in a "crusade" against an evil force.
Also from what I have read Lann is apparently happy to lean in to evil stuff and quite a good depiction of lawful neutral.
Jaheira was alignment restricted to true neutral as a druid.
It's not about whether the people you mention are "good" enough (though apart from Jaheira I think BG gets the alignment of the npcs pretty well right), the point is this is the first game I think I've ever played where you can't field, or it is very difficult to field, a full team of npcs that are "good" according to their ingame behaviour and their character sheets. Which I maintain is weird in any d&d title with apparently about 16 joinable npcs. This is before you consider you are fighting in a "crusade" against an evil force.
Also from what I have read Lann is apparently happy to lean in to evil stuff and quite a good depiction of lawful neutral.
Uh, maybe because it´s not a D&D title?
Pathfinder´s a Paizo IP. The mechanics may look like D&D 3.5, but the Lore and setting of Pathfinder are original.
And as stated before, the story it´s not a classic "good vs evil" trope ( look at previous posts). It`s an "everybody vs Dekaris" the crusaders could be lawful knights, hired assassins, or devil cultists, and many times you can do very bad things to defeat the demons with the approval of your fellow comrades.
It has several shades of grey. Do not think that your allies or your party are good just because you are fighting demons. You can safely say that you are trying to restore order to Sarkoris, but you are not doing good all the time. If you seek the evil path you do not automatically join the "dark side". You do the same as the lawful good mythic path, fighting Deskaris and Areelu, and most crusaders do not care if you are an undead liche, a Demon incarnate or the Swarm-that-walks, because evilness was not the point if you can close the worldwound.
it´s not a classic good vs evil story, despite what you have heard.
I personally do not consider Lann a "depiction of lawful neutral". Hés the one that advocates for bringing down the council of nobles, asks you to let curl the cutpurse flee, and advises you to hire veteran soldiers instead of career bureaucrats to be your army´s quartermasters as the Mendevian traditions dictate? He is more an idealistic rebel, a reformist in a "power for the people" way than a classic lawful neutral character.
Sometimes it´s better to avoid some doubtful opinions on the net and take a look at the games yourself, many times are biased or lack information.
@JuliusBorisov If someone wants to make a specifically good-aligned team, neutral characters don't really cut it.
One word. Jaheira. She's an essential part of any good-aligned team. And she behaves, at least according to some players, like a good character. So the written alignment sometimes doesn't mean a lot.
Can you also call Jan not good enough for a good party? Or Neera? Or Wilson? If you tell me Wilson doesn't fit a good party, I'll growl.
__
Also, if the player really wants, they can include custom-made companions, and for that, they don't need to start the game anew (unlike original BG).
I guess I didn't make my point clear/precise enough, my bad. The way I read the original comment, isn't that neutral characters can't act good enough to work in a good-doing party, but that there are not enough companions that are specifically of the good alignment to fill a party.
I will say that Jaheira and Wilson do not act neutral and totally should have been good aligned. But 2e, what can one do?
I think we're just sort of seeing a trend in crpgs from large numbers of available NPCs that each one has maybe 1 quest associated with them into more of a smaller group of NPCs that are given more screen time and are more three dimensional as a result. I think it's a major improvement, if I'm being honest (except for if all the npcs are awful/boring/uninteresting - which is thankfully not the case here in my opinion).
For example - I remember a few conversations I've had with Seelah (Lawful Good paladin) where I selected the Chaotic option, and on more than a few occasions, she's been like "Hell yeah, good call Commander!". She can still be lawful and think that giving the garrison a bunch of booze before a big fight is a good time.
Owlcat has done a good job depicting the alignment system a grid, and allowing some Lawful characters the opportunity to be a bit chaotic on one or two points while not subverting their nature entirely. Honestly, it's just a more realistic depiction, and I'm very much here for that
I really like this game so far. I actually felt genuine sympathy for Lann in the prologue when I lied about the sword right in front of him. I'm making an Elemental Witch-Winter Witch-Lich combo, and I'm TRYING to do it on my own rather than follow a guide. My understanding is just to pump and select anything that has to do with cold damage. Apparently as soon as halfway through the game, they get feats that ignore immunity to that element, and the Lich has a toggle that turns everything to cold damage.
The mythic paths is an interesting idea. I find myself thinking of what path I would take, and I haven't even decided if the game is worth getting yet.
The mythic paths is an interesting idea. I find myself thinking of what path I would take, and I haven't even decided if the game is worth getting yet.
It's the best replay incentive I've seen in the genre since the three Houses and conflicting guild dynamics in Morrowind.
The mythic paths is an interesting idea. I find myself thinking of what path I would take, and I haven't even decided if the game is worth getting yet.
It's the best replay incentive I've seen in the genre since the three Houses and conflicting guild dynamics in Morrowind.
For a second I thought you were talking about Fire Emblem : P
The mythic paths are interesting. The underrated aspect about them is how mechanically interesting they are: You can see some really fun synergies to opt into with some of the feats/abilities/traits available.
I think with the use of mythic paths they improved a lot the narrative. You get new mechanics and roleplay options in the same brush, and they can be combined with any combination of class, race, background, etc that you choose at character creation.
The addition of the background for characters in the way of PF2e does, was a good choice in my opinion (in PF1e you do not have backgrounds, you have traits that do not always add a backstory for your character). I kinda appreciate more dialogue options to establish your previous story, but since the game does not use "Origin" characters like dos, bg3 or the witcher it´s understandable.
@PsicoVic "It is not an invasion of demons from hell. They are from the Abyss"
Its the place demons come from. It's A hell, and an evil place.
Ok, gotcha. In pathfinder "Hell" is the name of the plane where the uber-lawful devils live, in contraposition with the chaotic demons of the Abyss.
In my defence you wrote "Hell" with capital letters in the post previous to this, hence my confusion.
@PsicoVic "Ok, gotcha. In pathfinder "Hell" is the name of the plane where the uber-lawful devils live, in contraposition with the chaotic demons of the Abyss.
In my defence you wrote "Hell" with capital letters in the post previous to this, hence my confusion.
"
Also in your defense, I didn't specify that I was talking about themes, rather than mechanics.
Talking about buffing, my life improved a lot when they finally ported the "auto-buff" bot mod to Wotr. I think I would be able to actually have social life instead of spending my time buffing the characters after every fight =D
I recommend it to everyone, it does not add any cheesing, it only makes your characters cast a predetermined set of buffs to your party that you can set, only by pressing one button.
Do you folks auto-level companions?? I feel like this makes a fair bit of sense, since they aren't your character, and they have all been programmed to choose certain feats and skills to end up a certain way. In BG, choosing what to do with each party member is relatively easy. In Pathfinder, manually leveling 6 classes and doing it well just seems like too much work.
- don't use any AI settings for party members;
- never auto-level them and actually like the moments when I level up the whole party (and for Pathfinder, it means more than 6 characters) the most - choices are so cool;
- don't use auto-buffs;
- heck, don't even use auto-pause.
When any of these elements are taken away from me, I feel robbed. I learn so much about the game I play when I look at possible level options, including possible MC-ing, especially for classes that feel less understandable to me (for Wrath, these are all Wrath-added classes and subclasses, if compared to Kingmaker).
I too control my character's leveling process. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldnt let the AI control them for classes that I understand less (I dont have a good feeling for Hexes, or Slayer talents, etc). I figure the best way to learn is to go for it.
That said, I'll admit that sometimes I almost get annoyed when I level up. Great. Now I get to spend 30 minutes leveling up all my companions and individually selecting their feats...
I also pre-buff a ton, but I dont use a tool for it. Maybe I will next playthrough, but for now - I kindof feel like a badass when I set up 10+ spells for buffing.
That is one of the best charm points of Owlcat´s pathfinder games (and many others based in d&D, like NWN or bg2 series), to be able to customize your party with a robust character creation system.
So I always micromanage my party members and the pets , even respec them if it´s allowed. That makes successful runs with the same characters more fun.
The flexibility of the PF1e system allows you to make very different builds with the same characters, so I like to explore that.
My MCs are callous leaders that give advice about how to fit in the unit and train them accordingly if they want to stay in the group, Regill-style.
Like @JuliusBorisov I also usually play in TB, with the Ia off and even use mods to take control of my summoned monsters, I prefer to fully manage my party.
I also pre-buff a ton, but I dont use a tool for it. Maybe I will next playthrough, but for now - I kindof feel like a badass when I set up 10+ spells for buffing.
There´s not such things as too much buffs! There´s always room for more. When the bot finishes the set I end up adding delay poison, and death ward... uh... and remove fear just in case!
It does not help that I usually make parties of casters and half-casters.
I dont know if anyone here has done the quest at The Shrine of the Three yet, but... ugh. WotR is a very good game, but that is a very poorly conceived encounter.
Thankfully it's a side quest, from what I can see. Encounter information in the spoiler tag below.
You're forced into Turn Based mode against a set of enemies that continually spawn in, several of which have a large number of spells that can knock out a group of your party through CC (greater command) along with several full self heals.
Apparently to end the never-ending spawn you have to run through to 3 different statues and turn them off. There are traps in the way that prevent you from passing for awhile, and the enemies can choke up the only ways to the statues too.
So if you dont have a bunch of dimension doors readily available, you're going to spend literal hours grinding through an encounter.
I just gave us. Wasnt worth it. Hope Owlcat either allows me to do the quest in RtwP or adjusts the particulars of the encounter.
I dont know if anyone here has done the quest at The Shrine of the Three yet, but... ugh. WotR is a very good game, but that is a very poorly conceived encounter.
Thankfully it's a side quest, from what I can see. Encounter information in the spoiler tag below.
You're forced into Turn Based mode against a set of enemies that continually spawn in, several of which have a large number of spells that can knock out a group of your party through CC (greater command) along with several full self heals.
Apparently to end the never-ending spawn you have to run through to 3 different statues and turn them off. There are traps in the way that prevent you from passing for awhile, and the enemies can choke up the only ways to the statues too.
So if you dont have a bunch of dimension doors readily available, you're going to spend literal hours grinding through an encounter.
I just gave us. Wasnt worth it. Hope Owlcat either allows me to do the quest in RtwP or adjusts the particulars of the encounter.
[/spoiler[
What would be the point of doing this other than to "showcase" turn-based mode for people who wouldn't otherwise consider it?? Reminds me of an achievement during Children's Week in WoW where, if you want to complete it, you have to enter 3 battlegrounds and do 3 specific things. So people who hate PvP are pulling their hair out trying to complete things they've never done, and the people who PvP regularly have their BGs ruined for a week by people who aren't even there to complete the normal objectives.
I dont know if anyone here has done the quest at The Shrine of the Three yet, but... ugh. WotR is a very good game, but that is a very poorly conceived encounter.
Thankfully it's a side quest, from what I can see. Encounter information in the spoiler tag below.
You're forced into Turn Based mode against a set of enemies that continually spawn in, several of which have a large number of spells that can knock out a group of your party through CC (greater command) along with several full self heals.
Apparently to end the never-ending spawn you have to run through to 3 different statues and turn them off. There are traps in the way that prevent you from passing for awhile, and the enemies can choke up the only ways to the statues too.
So if you dont have a bunch of dimension doors readily available, you're going to spend literal hours grinding through an encounter.
I just gave us. Wasnt worth it. Hope Owlcat either allows me to do the quest in RtwP or adjusts the particulars of the encounter.
[/spoiler[
What would be the point of doing this other than to "showcase" turn-based mode for people who wouldn't otherwise consider it?? Reminds me of an achievement during Children's Week in WoW where, if you want to complete it, you have to enter 3 battlegrounds and do 3 specific things. So people who hate PvP are pulling their hair out trying to complete things they've never done, and the people who PvP regularly have their BGs ruined for a week by people who aren't even there to complete the normal objectives.
There is a meta reason, I think. The NPC you interact there talks a great length about how they wish combat was decided by "tactics" and not by who swung an axe harder. I think it was kind of a meta-joke-concept by the developers. Honestly - it wouldnt even be bad, if they set it up so the fight itself wasnt terrible. At first, I was kind of into it, until 45 minutes had gone by and realized I was never going to finish the right without some kind of cheese.
Any recommendation for a pure arcane caster build that does not use the Lich mythic path? Lich is supposed to be strongest, but I don't feel like it - was considering Aeon, but not sure if the synergies are there.
Any recommendation for a pure arcane caster build that does not use the Lich mythic path? Lich is supposed to be strongest, but I don't feel like it - was considering Aeon, but not sure if the synergies are there.
There are a lot of options. I like Azata Mythic path, with favourable magic and Zippy magic. You can do some crazy stunts with those ones. I think it suits arcane characters just fine and the spellbook does not overlap. Aion provides protection and immunities, both to the aion and to the party but not much that could help arcane casters specifically unless you go
devil
later on. Cool story and roleplay options tho.
As for classes, I personally enjoy elf or half-elf Ley-line or stigmatized witches. They do not have as many offensive spells as wizs but the combination of spells and hexes makes that you seldom run out of spells. They also have access to positive/negative energy-based spells. Undead or demons are rarely resistant/immune to those. That´s a mythic feat more you can use to get another ability instead of one ascendant element.
I do not know what type of mage you want, but if I want to be a pure caster, I prefer to wreak havoc with my spells instead of using a crossbow. (Not that arcane tricksters, kineticists or eldritch archers are not powerful, they are arguably better damage dealers. it´s just another playstyle. You can even have both at the same party).
You also have the divine bolt cantrip like other divine casters (it does divine damage instead of elemental damage, so it harms all demons and undead) so you can forget about using weapons with this one if you want and keep the arcane enhancing staffs in your hands at all times.
You can try arcanists too, They have the versatility of wizards and the huge spell-ammo-clip of sorcerers. With exploits like potent magic, they are very good at "save-or-suck" spells and dispelling magic, if not the best. You can try a gnome arcanist with illusion spells and switch them to another school when needed (i.e if facing undead). They even have a gnome-only archetype for that (it's not the most powerful build but it's fun and a cool concept for a character)
They have some archetypes that excel at supporting your party, like brown-fur transmuters or white mages, but they have a limited day spell selection so you may be stretching too thin and I´m not sure if you want more a blaster-type.
There´s also Cruoromancers, the Dhampir blood mages, but those may be better suited for a lich path.
If you want an option to spice up your classic casters, check the loremaster or Hellknight signifier prestige classes, they add some interesting abilities, maintaining your casting capabilities and pure casters have little problem fulfilling the requirements for those as early as level 6.
How heavily do the game encounters rely on magic to solve? I tend to run magic light parties.
I´ve seen party builds made only by warriors and half-casters to buff so I think it´s doable. It could also be less taxing since you do not have to rest so often, you can fight several skirmishes in a row and you do not have to seek holy places to stave off demonic corruption so often. I didn´t try it personally.
Comments
I would definitely say that a paladin, a ranged monk, a witch girl, a cleric definitely look, speak and behave like good characters. There is also a neutral thief who behaves, well, neutrally and reminds me of a mix of Leliana, Zevran and your favourite goody puppy. There is also a neutral mage fitting any party.
As I understand, I will meet another good character later.
I would say it's more than enough for a good team.
I can understand why someone might think this. I will say that this game is very (VERY) grimdark at times. Like... yikes. I personally love it, and think it fits when fighting demons and cultists, but it does create an environment/atmosphere that allows for some NPCs to stretch their legs in less than "Good aligned" ways, even when they seem to be fairly good people at other times.
I do not think it´s a crusade against evil, it´s a crusade against pure chaos. Your allies are the ultra-lawful hellknights, devils from hell, Aions, elder fay, reformed demons, non-chromatic dragons, etc
wich are not the nicest people in the world =D
You could do pretty awful things to achieve your goals, but mendelevian crusaders have some rules that could cause that you´ll be punished if you break them.
That could explain why so many evil or neutral companions fit perfectly in the fifth crusade army. you cannot have all the companions at the same time or in the same run. Two companions are only for evil playthroughs and some companions leave if you choose the evil or lawful mythic paths.
If you pick the most extreme paths some companions abandone you. you will have to fight alone or make a party of undead or mercenaries if you do not have the means to convince some of the npcs to follow your ways. That is why you can turn several of them to the dark side and you only need to turn one of the evil guys to goodness.
That said, You have a paladin, a monk, a good witch (her patron is an empyreal), a cleric of Shelyn and
I´ll go for a 80% daeran 20% Sosiel... =D Daeran is a very charismatic character for many. I had him in all my parties and he is the nicest not-nice person in all of them.
Sosiel is.. uh, I think the name says all. Soso él
A question, are you playing the game?
Because @PsicoVic is actually exactly right. The game goes to great lengths to just to explain why the crusade in the worldwound isnt just a "Good vs Evil" trope, but is actually a collection of factions that all have their own reasons for participating. In that collection you can certainly find the pious do-gooders like Crusaders, but then you also find Hellknights who would happily sacrifice many many innocents in order to achieve a tactically significant victory.
One of the stronger narrative aspects Owlcat has managed in all of this is that they've made you feel like ANY character to roll and bring can be a commander in the Crusade. They needed to find a way to allow you to transform your character in a Lich and still have it make sense that you're a part of the crusade.
They dont execute perfectly on this point, but they do a damn good job. Better than I expected, if I am being honest.
It is not an invasion of demons from hell. They are from the Abyss
In Golarion, lawful devils are from the plane of hell. Chaotic demons are from another plane, called Abyss. To keep it short, souls of the worst sinners were sent to that plane by Pharasma, they became larvae. It was a plane first inhabited by the Qlippoth, but some experiments made by the Daemons fused larvae and qlippoth, causing the apparition of entities of pure chaos, the demons. A demon fights its way until they evolve into more and more vicious forms until they became a full demon and even more powerful entities. The most powerful of them became Demon lords. When they finished to violently get free of the Daemons and almost wipe out the qlippoth of the plane they started to find new places to corrupt. They are basically enemies of almost any other creatures in existence, and most of the time, demon lords are also enemies between them.
The Worldwound opened a direct way to this plane and Sarkoris, in Golarion; with the consequences you can imagine...
Demons and devils (and Daemons or the Qlippoth) hate each other. So the devils from hell (and the diabolist nation of Cheliax and his Hellknights) are supporting the crusade, among many others, for plenty of reasons. And I assure you, the crusaders are not the most virtuous of the lot, mainly the opposite most of the time.
As @BallpointMan pointed out, the game shows that it´s a battle between Order and Chaos, with factions from all the axis good-evil in between. So you can roleplay any character and having reasons to fight the Deskarites. Good guys may want to save the people, evil guys want to survive, neutral characters may want to stop the demons to tear apart the barriers of the reality.
Ingame it makes sense that even a Liche or a Demon are fighting Deskari and Areelu´s schemes.
One word. Jaheira. She's an essential part of any good-aligned team. And she behaves, at least according to some players, like a good character. So the written alignment sometimes doesn't mean a lot.
Can you also call Jan not good enough for a good party? Or Neera? Or Wilson? If you tell me Wilson doesn't fit a good party, I'll growl.
__
Also, if the player really wants, they can include custom-made companions, and for that, they don't need to start the game anew (unlike original BG).
It's not about whether the people you mention are "good" enough (though apart from Jaheira I think BG gets the alignment of the npcs pretty well right), the point is this is the first game I think I've ever played where you can't field, or it is very difficult to field, a full team of npcs that are "good" according to their ingame behaviour and their character sheets. Which I maintain is weird in any d&d title with apparently about 16 joinable npcs. This is before you consider you are fighting in a "crusade" against an evil force.
Also from what I have read Lann is apparently happy to lean in to evil stuff and quite a good depiction of lawful neutral.
Even in Kingmaker, there were a few companions listed as Neutral that played perfectly well in a "Good" party imo. Valerie is the obvious example.
Uh, maybe because it´s not a D&D title?
Pathfinder´s a Paizo IP. The mechanics may look like D&D 3.5, but the Lore and setting of Pathfinder are original.
And as stated before, the story it´s not a classic "good vs evil" trope ( look at previous posts). It`s an "everybody vs Dekaris" the crusaders could be lawful knights, hired assassins, or devil cultists, and many times you can do very bad things to defeat the demons with the approval of your fellow comrades.
It has several shades of grey. Do not think that your allies or your party are good just because you are fighting demons. You can safely say that you are trying to restore order to Sarkoris, but you are not doing good all the time. If you seek the evil path you do not automatically join the "dark side". You do the same as the lawful good mythic path, fighting Deskaris and Areelu, and most crusaders do not care if you are an undead liche, a Demon incarnate or the Swarm-that-walks, because evilness was not the point if you can close the worldwound.
it´s not a classic good vs evil story, despite what you have heard.
I personally do not consider Lann a "depiction of lawful neutral". Hés the one that advocates for bringing down the council of nobles, asks you to let curl the cutpurse flee, and advises you to hire veteran soldiers instead of career bureaucrats to be your army´s quartermasters as the Mendevian traditions dictate? He is more an idealistic rebel, a reformist in a "power for the people" way than a classic lawful neutral character.
Sometimes it´s better to avoid some doubtful opinions on the net and take a look at the games yourself, many times are biased or lack information.
In all fairness, I only have a tabletop version of the campaign, which paints it very much as "church vs. demons."
@PsicoVic "It is not an invasion of demons from hell. They are from the Abyss"
Its the place demons come from. It's A hell, and an evil place.
I guess I didn't make my point clear/precise enough, my bad. The way I read the original comment, isn't that neutral characters can't act good enough to work in a good-doing party, but that there are not enough companions that are specifically of the good alignment to fill a party.
I will say that Jaheira and Wilson do not act neutral and totally should have been good aligned. But 2e, what can one do?
For example - I remember a few conversations I've had with Seelah (Lawful Good paladin) where I selected the Chaotic option, and on more than a few occasions, she's been like "Hell yeah, good call Commander!". She can still be lawful and think that giving the garrison a bunch of booze before a big fight is a good time.
Owlcat has done a good job depicting the alignment system a grid, and allowing some Lawful characters the opportunity to be a bit chaotic on one or two points while not subverting their nature entirely. Honestly, it's just a more realistic depiction, and I'm very much here for that
It's the best replay incentive I've seen in the genre since the three Houses and conflicting guild dynamics in Morrowind.
For a second I thought you were talking about Fire Emblem : P
The mythic paths are interesting. The underrated aspect about them is how mechanically interesting they are: You can see some really fun synergies to opt into with some of the feats/abilities/traits available.
The addition of the background for characters in the way of PF2e does, was a good choice in my opinion (in PF1e you do not have backgrounds, you have traits that do not always add a backstory for your character). I kinda appreciate more dialogue options to establish your previous story, but since the game does not use "Origin" characters like dos, bg3 or the witcher it´s understandable.
Ok, gotcha. In pathfinder "Hell" is the name of the plane where the uber-lawful devils live, in contraposition with the chaotic demons of the Abyss.
In my defence you wrote "Hell" with capital letters in the post previous to this, hence my confusion.
In my defence you wrote "Hell" with capital letters in the post previous to this, hence my confusion.
"
Also in your defense, I didn't specify that I was talking about themes, rather than mechanics.
I recommend it to everyone, it does not add any cheesing, it only makes your characters cast a predetermined set of buffs to your party that you can set, only by pressing one button.
ed: added link https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/15
- don't use any AI settings for party members;
- never auto-level them and actually like the moments when I level up the whole party (and for Pathfinder, it means more than 6 characters) the most - choices are so cool;
- don't use auto-buffs;
- heck, don't even use auto-pause.
When any of these elements are taken away from me, I feel robbed. I learn so much about the game I play when I look at possible level options, including possible MC-ing, especially for classes that feel less understandable to me (for Wrath, these are all Wrath-added classes and subclasses, if compared to Kingmaker).
That said, I'll admit that sometimes I almost get annoyed when I level up. Great. Now I get to spend 30 minutes leveling up all my companions and individually selecting their feats...
I also pre-buff a ton, but I dont use a tool for it. Maybe I will next playthrough, but for now - I kindof feel like a badass when I set up 10+ spells for buffing.
So I always micromanage my party members and the pets , even respec them if it´s allowed. That makes successful runs with the same characters more fun.
The flexibility of the PF1e system allows you to make very different builds with the same characters, so I like to explore that.
My MCs are callous leaders that give advice about how to fit in the unit and train them accordingly if they want to stay in the group, Regill-style.
Like @JuliusBorisov I also usually play in TB, with the Ia off and even use mods to take control of my summoned monsters, I prefer to fully manage my party.
There´s not such things as too much buffs! There´s always room for more. When the bot finishes the set I end up adding delay poison, and death ward... uh... and remove fear just in case!
It does not help that I usually make parties of casters and half-casters.
Thankfully it's a side quest, from what I can see. Encounter information in the spoiler tag below.
You're forced into Turn Based mode against a set of enemies that continually spawn in, several of which have a large number of spells that can knock out a group of your party through CC (greater command) along with several full self heals.
Apparently to end the never-ending spawn you have to run through to 3 different statues and turn them off. There are traps in the way that prevent you from passing for awhile, and the enemies can choke up the only ways to the statues too.
So if you dont have a bunch of dimension doors readily available, you're going to spend literal hours grinding through an encounter.
I just gave us. Wasnt worth it. Hope Owlcat either allows me to do the quest in RtwP or adjusts the particulars of the encounter.
[/spoiler[
What would be the point of doing this other than to "showcase" turn-based mode for people who wouldn't otherwise consider it?? Reminds me of an achievement during Children's Week in WoW where, if you want to complete it, you have to enter 3 battlegrounds and do 3 specific things. So people who hate PvP are pulling their hair out trying to complete things they've never done, and the people who PvP regularly have their BGs ruined for a week by people who aren't even there to complete the normal objectives.
There is a meta reason, I think. The NPC you interact there talks a great length about how they wish combat was decided by "tactics" and not by who swung an axe harder. I think it was kind of a meta-joke-concept by the developers. Honestly - it wouldnt even be bad, if they set it up so the fight itself wasnt terrible. At first, I was kind of into it, until 45 minutes had gone by and realized I was never going to finish the right without some kind of cheese.
There are a lot of options. I like Azata Mythic path, with favourable magic and Zippy magic. You can do some crazy stunts with those ones. I think it suits arcane characters just fine and the spellbook does not overlap. Aion provides protection and immunities, both to the aion and to the party but not much that could help arcane casters specifically unless you go
As for classes, I personally enjoy elf or half-elf Ley-line or stigmatized witches. They do not have as many offensive spells as wizs but the combination of spells and hexes makes that you seldom run out of spells. They also have access to positive/negative energy-based spells. Undead or demons are rarely resistant/immune to those. That´s a mythic feat more you can use to get another ability instead of one ascendant element.
I do not know what type of mage you want, but if I want to be a pure caster, I prefer to wreak havoc with my spells instead of using a crossbow. (Not that arcane tricksters, kineticists or eldritch archers are not powerful, they are arguably better damage dealers. it´s just another playstyle. You can even have both at the same party).
You also have the divine bolt cantrip like other divine casters (it does divine damage instead of elemental damage, so it harms all demons and undead) so you can forget about using weapons with this one if you want and keep the arcane enhancing staffs in your hands at all times.
You can try arcanists too, They have the versatility of wizards and the huge spell-ammo-clip of sorcerers. With exploits like potent magic, they are very good at "save-or-suck" spells and dispelling magic, if not the best. You can try a gnome arcanist with illusion spells and switch them to another school when needed (i.e if facing undead). They even have a gnome-only archetype for that (it's not the most powerful build but it's fun and a cool concept for a character)
They have some archetypes that excel at supporting your party, like brown-fur transmuters or white mages, but they have a limited day spell selection so you may be stretching too thin and I´m not sure if you want more a blaster-type.
There´s also Cruoromancers, the Dhampir blood mages, but those may be better suited for a lich path.
If you want an option to spice up your classic casters, check the loremaster or Hellknight signifier prestige classes, they add some interesting abilities, maintaining your casting capabilities and pure casters have little problem fulfilling the requirements for those as early as level 6.
I´ve seen party builds made only by warriors and half-casters to buff so I think it´s doable. It could also be less taxing since you do not have to rest so often, you can fight several skirmishes in a row and you do not have to seek holy places to stave off demonic corruption so often. I didn´t try it personally.