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Might and Magic 6-7-8 Merge Mod

BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
edited February 2020 in Off-Topic
Hello, I've just been playing with the relatively new Merge Mod for Might and Magic 6, 7, and 8. It combines all three original games with the Greyface Patch, and converts everything into HD widescreen with HD textures. Here are a few screen shots:

New Sorpigal:

The sky and sea off the shore of New Sorpigal:

The character screen. Note that this minotaur character started in MM6 and is leveling as an MM6 knight as opposed to as an MM8 minotaur:

All items and most art assets are available across all three of the games. You choose which continent to start your adventure on - Enroth, Erathia, or Jadame.

So far I've only started in MM6, so I haven't seen how the new merge handles moving across games yet. There's a monster scaling feature built in that's supposed to make changing to a new continent level-appropriate when you go to the former beginner's areas, but I haven't gotten that far to evaluate how well it works.

Note that you can have a five-member party in MM6 or MM7 as in MM8. They also tweaked trainers and placed joinable NPC's in the training centers in MM6 and MM7 if you want to start with a single character and find your companions as in MM8.

Moderators, if you think this makes too many Might and Magic threads, you can merge this one with one of the others. I just thought that this merge deserves its own topic, and it needs way more promotion, as few people who are former or current fans of the Might and Magic games seem to know about it.

If anyone wants to see more screenshots of anything else, let me know, and I'll try to make more.



  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 309
    As I am in the middle of a M&M6 run at the moment, these screenshots look awesome to me. There is a huge difference in terms of graphical quality, especially for M&M6. I will try this mod after my current run finishes, but I’d like to ask you one question as you are currently playing it.

    Did they change the skill system for M&M6 to be like in M&M7-8? Like did they add grandmastery, and the additional skill upgrade limitations of the classes of M&M7? I hope they did, because M&M 6 skill system is inferior to 7 in my opinion

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    @Ludwig_II , the short answer is yes. Notice the skill lists for my minotaur knight and my druid include armsmaster, dodging, and alchemy. Also notice that my minotaur knight has shiny new plate armor since the last screenshots I posted. :)


    Some combat screenshots. Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes!

    Meet the first "boss" of Might and Magic 6. We were well prepared, though, so he wasn't that bad. Also, since the merge has added body and mind resistances as things, Shari's (Jaheira's) and my Harm spells were highly effective. I don't know if the mod writers gave him any body magic resistance, but I'm pretty glad if they didn't, since Jaheira and I kind of owned the boss who usually owns early game MM6 parties. :)

    Also note that you can now use movement during turn-based mode from MM7 and MM8 in MM6 now. That also makes encounters that used to be pains in the behind much more manageable and doable.

    Also, the merge uses the spells and spellbooks from MM8. Among many other things, my cleric's Turn Undead from spirit magic is now *highly* effective. Effective as in, I can send mobs of skeletons running in turn-based mode in the Temple of Baa by casting it every turn. The things rarely even get close enough to swing at us. That made my cleric very, very fun, and to feel more like a proper D&D cleric with a useful Turn Undead ability.

  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 309
    Cool, thanks for the response. Screenshots look great. However, do you know if it's now possible to get until grandmastery in skills in MM6, just like in MM7 and 8? Because that would mean designing additional skill promoters, and grandmastery effect for each skill. Or, they could just use the grandmastery effects from 7 and 8, but it would still mean having additional instructors to be able to promote to grandmaster.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,266
    I never played the M&M games (I did play the HoMM games, but for some reason I never picked up or got into the M&M games), but man, those screenshots are bringing back memories of Daggerfall and the 90's era when RPGs were making their forays into 3D technology. XD

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    @Ludwig_II , There are additional trainers. For example, the master trainers also teach grandmastery, and there's an armsmaster trainer in Free Haven. I'm having to explore all the houses again to find what's different. So far I still haven't found an alchemy trainer, but I'm hoping there's one somewhere.

    You basically have to re-explore the game to find everything new, and I'm not that far in yet. All I know so far is that the master magic trainers on Mist Island can teach grandmastery. It's rank 7 for mastery now, and I think rank 10 for grandmastery. Some spells are harder to get, for example, Fly is now a master level spell only sold in Free Haven, and I still haven't seen a Fireball spell.

  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 309
    Awesome, thanks a lot for the information. Sounds great to me. Now I cant wait to play this.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,062
    I decided to give it a try, and just cleared the abandoned temple near New Sorpigal. It was very cool to find a random NPC in the training building, - a lvl 10 (!) druid. The fact the game can generate random NPCs is an additional plus.

    Another small feature I like is bounties. No longer you have to go for a titan month 1 - instead, the game generates a requested monster somewhere on the map.

    Oh, and you can play Archmage in MM6 now. ;)

    A question: I see the reputation/diplomacy system is not like in vanilla MM6. Have you figured out, @BelgarathMTH, how the reputation works here? Should I retrieve the candelabra for Andover Potbello? Or is it just giving some positive reputation like in MM7 if you complete quests (affecting prices)?

    Have you found alchemy trainers yet?

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,238
    M&M lost me after #5. I'm not sure I could enjoy going back 20 years in computer technology but I am intrigued by the thought. Maybe when my daughter goes off to college and I'm comfortably retired I'll give this a go. Until that time I'll happily read the posts!

  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 309
    Hey Balrog99, if you don’t mind, could you please tell me why it lost you after 5? I though it only got much better by 6 & 7, and then it started to decline. But happy to hear your opinion on it as I never played the ones before 6

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,238
    Ludwig_II wrote: »
    Hey Balrog99, if you don’t mind, could you please tell me why it lost you after 5? I though it only got much better by 6 & 7, and then it started to decline. But happy to hear your opinion on it as I never played the ones before 6

    Both M&M and the Wizardry games got too repetitive for me and the Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights and Elder Scrolls games captured my imagination. Heroes of Might and Magic also absorbed a lot of my gaming time back then and I never looked back after that.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,062
    I found an alchemy trainer in Castle Ironfist (search for the second floor of the castle itself / the roof).

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    @JuliusBorisov , I never really understood how the reputation score worked in vanilla. :)

    So, no, sadly, I don't understand the revamp either. I turned in the Baa candelabra, and I'm not seeing any negative effects after, but I haven't actually checked my score lately. I hired a scholar early on and had to threaten him into the party after begging didn't work, but hiring my enchanter when I finally found one went smoothly. I've never really seen any effect of reputation in the game other than in hiring npc's, although I read in the mod notes (the "tracker" - you can access it via a link in Templayer's signature in the thread for the mod on Celestial Heavens) that reputation now affects store prices.

    One person with "hated" reputation posted that even with master merchant skill, the shops were actually charging *more* than the markup for zero merchant skill. "I normally sell this item for 100 gold, but I will offer it to you for 110 gold." They were getting dialogue like that in the shops , and they thought it was a bug at first.

    I haven't found an alchemy trainer yet, but I haven't been to Free Haven, where I'm hoping I can find one. I just finished up the Temple of Baa last night and walked to Bootleg Bay when I had to stop. Sadly, I have little to no time to play during the work week and can mostly only play on weekends, so my progress is very slow.

    Turn Undead made the Temple of Baa a lot easier to beat than usual. The priests' elemental attacks don't seem to be doing as much damage as they used to. I'm wondering if the resistances in MM8's engine work differently in a way that is making formerly scary enemies from MM6 a good bit less scary.

    I read in the Tracker notes that certain enemies' signature spells in MM6 don't exist in MM8, so those creatures are nerfed now. For example, minotaur kings no longer cast Finger of Death, because that spell doesn't exist in the MM8 engine. I'm wondering if the diamond gargoyles of Silver Cove are still going to be as painful and dangerous to fight with their paralyzing attacks. Remove Paralysis is now a master level mind spell, I think, so I'm planning to avoid Silver Cove until I can learn the spell. And you can't mix purple + green Potions of Restoration to remove conditions any more, which used to be my solution for dealing with gargoyles.

    Of course, the master mind teacher is in Silver Cove. And it's going to be a really long delay before I can safely get my druid there on the right date to get her class promotion.

    One more caveat I haven't mentioned - the in-combat banter lines only trigger for the MM8 character templates. So, if you use any of the characters from MM6 or MM7, you won't get voiced lines during combat. Those lines are an important part of my enjoyment, which is why I chose all MM8 character templates for my game.

    It's really interesting to me to explore the game again to find out new problems and new solutions to those problems. Some things are easier than before, some things are harder. And I continue to be amazed by the stunning visual environment. Seeing the game in beautiful HD widescreen is probably the main draw for me.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    I found an alchemy trainer in Castle Ironfist (search for the second floor of the castle itself / the roof).

    OMG, I would never have looked there! Thank you so much!

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,062
    edited February 2020
    The thing with reputation is, in MM6 vanilla it's a very important part of the game, needed for mastering Light and Dark. It's also decreasing over time.

    However, in MM7 reputation changed a lot, see (so it now became different for different areas, stopped decreasing over time, started to only affect prices).

    And in MM8 reputation didn't matter at all. Now, looking at my Neutral 1 and then Neutral 2 increase I see that the reputation is now like in MM8 but it actually works (most likely, only in the context of store prices). Judging by the term "Neutral" I understand the vanilla MM6 system is gone. I wonder how it will affect mastering Light and Dark. And yes, I didn't notice any consequence after returning the candelabra.

    The improved visual environment makes the game feel different from what I have used to, especially dungeons. I also like that my party, at least visually, isn't consisting of only humans.

    One aspect I find questionable is that now Meditation also affects Regeneration of Spell points. It's as if you have spell points regeneration items equipped from the start of the game. You can just wait a bit and your cleric will be able to heal everyone. And then again.

    Maybe the damage you mention @BelgarathMTH (The priests' elemental attacks don't seem to be doing as much damage as they used to) - is actually because your characters with Meditation regenerate spell points now and you can easily heal the party.

    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 309
    edited February 2020
    The more you guys continue explaining the changes on this mod, the more I can't wait to finish my current run and start on this one. Honestly, most of the changes you guys describe here sound awesome to me. Thanks a lot for all the info. It sounds an even more awesome mod than I initially thought.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 846
    Make sure to use the community branch patch - Rodril (the Merge Mod's original author) tends to get buried in Real-Life Issues at the drop of a hat due to their job.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    @Pokota , I'm using that community branch patch you mention. It might be worth saying that the only link I could find to it was in the Tracker. I'll try copying it here:

    Last night I found trainers for all levels of alchemy and armsmaster in Free Haven. There's also been an Adventurer's Inn added for swapping out NPC's.

    Filling out spellbooks is going to be a challenge, since as far as I can tell, master and grandmaster level spells are only sold in the Free Haven guilds, and they compete for RNG slots with expert and even basic books. That is, there are fewer slots available for the game to generate spells like Fly, Town Portal, Lloyd's Beacon, and Remove Paralysis. (Remove Paralysis is expert level instead of master, as it turns out, but last night I only found one copy at the mind guild, when I wanted two copies so my cleric and druid could back each other up. There was no Fly spell at the air guild. I forgot to try save-scumming before opening the door to see if that still works.)

    Maybe the Silver Cove guilds have master level spellbooks? I haven't been there yet. I wonder if the guilds of Light and Dark are still there? @JuliusBorisov , I'm also curious how the merge is going to handle Light and Dark magic, and how it will handle the branching storylines in MM7.

    I noticed that Meditation was regenerating spell points early on. I actually kind of like that, although it does act as a nerf to difficulty. I'm wondering if higher ranks of Meditation increases the speed of the regeneration? I'm still early in, and I haven't wanted to invest more than one point in Meditation for each caster in favor of developing other skills.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 846
    Your best bet for finding spellbooks (outside of the forced ones in the MM6 dungeons because of course those are untouched) is going to be in Antigarich, since it has the full gamut of guilds there for all mastery tiers across all spell schools. Enroth and Jadame only have their normal two guilds per school, which Enroth is hit pretty hard by the spellbook "rebalancing".

    Invest in a Town Portal NPC.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    edited February 2020
    I found a Fly spell in a chest in the Temple of Tsantsa that has the graphic of MM6. I hope it works when I get my sorcerer to air magic mastery. It gave the "you don't have the skill" message when I tried to learn it without mastery.

    My sorcerer got water mastery and learned Town Portal. I went to Silver Cove to get my druid's first class promotion. We were suddenly "accosted" by a new NPC who gave us info about how to change continents. Here are the screenshots, but they're a huge spoiler if you want to be surprised.

    Note that you only need skill 7 in water magic to achieve water mastery and learn mastery level town portal which brings up the MM6 teleport map. It will not work near monsters without grandmastery. But the "10 percent chance to work per skill point" is gone. In the MM8 engine, you would not have even been able to learn the spell in the first place without mastery level water magic.

    I promoted my druid to grand druid or whatever the first promotion is called, and took the quest for archdruid. I am wondering how I'm supposed to know the phases of the moon in the MM8 engine so I can pray at the altar for the Ritual of the Moon on a full moon at midnight. I don't see any way to tell what phase the moon is in in the MM8 interface. I'm afraid I'm going to have to rest over and over in there for a whole month, praying at midnight each day, until I catch the right day.

    EDIT: Btw, the Light guild in Silver Cove does not teach basic Light magic any more. I'm afraid that Light and Dark magic are no longer learnable in MM6 if you start there. You would need to start in either MM7 or MM8 and achieve the right flags for either Light or Dark magic, as far as I can tell. And the one will exclude the other. I'm in favor of that. I always thought it was bogus to have Light and Dark magic masters in the same party. The one should refuse to have anything to do with the other.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 846
    edited February 2020
    The Master trainers in Enroth also teach Grandmastery in Merge, and I prefer starting in Enroth since Water/Air mastery are so ridiculously easily accessible there (plus Enroth's Dimension Door locations are safe compared to Antigarich's and Jadame's)

    Light and Dark Magic can no longer be learned by the generic starting classes, you need to have promoted. I believe with an Enroth start you need to be fully promoted, which means repairing the Free Haven Temple and replacing the Chalice for Clerics, and finding the Fountain of Magic and recovering the Crystal of Terrax for Sorcerors.

    E: Please note that only Grandmastery in Dark/Light requires choosing a Path. You can still master both if you start from Enroth (at the cost of never grandmastering either)

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 846
    Something I forgot to mention: The months are all the same 28-day length in Might and Magic 6-8+Merge, so the full moon is on the same day every month. (I know this because wishing genie strength in 7 is also based on the day/week of the month - never use a genie lamp on the weekend)

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    edited February 2020
    @Pokota , or anyone, do you happen to know which day? Is it maybe the 14th? (I tried Googling and couldn't find that information.)

    One correction from a previous post of mine - the master/grandmaster alchemy trainer is above Castle Stone, not in Free Haven. I must have misread something the night I was exploring Free Haven, or I was tired after work or something. You'll have to have access to the Fly spell before you can get to it.

    And would you believe I just realized today that map notes from MM8 are available now on MM6 maps? That is going to make finding stuff in Free Haven so much easier!

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,851
    Half these posts I go "wow that's great". And then the other half I think "well, that's pretty terrible". Kinda torn on trying this.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 846
    edited February 2020
    It runs on the MM8 engine, so it's probably "Great And Terrible".

    Ohh that reminds me: Make sure you learn how to dismiss and reclaim your characters if you started with a full party of 5 - the Jadame story quests still require you to recruit/escort/deliver certain characters, and (ending spoilers)
    The first time you reach the very definitely final area, the rest of your party is removed and spread out across the map. If your "Hero of Jadame" can't cast at least Water Walk, keep a Water-Breathing Potion on hand at all times

    E: @BelgarathMTH re Full Moon: I know you got "just show up at midnight" on the CH forum, but for reference in Vanilla MM6 the full moon is on the 15th of the month.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    @Pokota, thanks. :)

    So, I just had my first run in with the Merge's level scaling system at level 24. I don't know if it was my level that triggered it, or my promotion levels. I currently have everyone in my party at first promotion level, and my archer at the second promotion level.

    Anyway, I went into the Temple of the Moon to work on my druid's second promotion, and the snakes in there were *way* more powerful than usual.

    I first entered expecting an easy time, and then almost got my behind handed to me with almost every party member poisoned, and physical hits from queen snakes doing half our health's worth of damage, and me without a Cure Poison spell or enough purple potions. (I've also noticed that fire archers anywhere and everywhere are significantly more dangerous than in vanilla, if you can believe that.)

    So, I went back out for more potions and to buy a Cure Poison spellbook with my last coins. I wish there had been two, one for me (cleric) and one for Jaheira, but there was only one. (BTW - attempting to save scum at the doors of the guilds appears to be no longer a thing. Their inventories seem to be set upon entering a map.)

    Say a prayer for me as I go up against level-scaled medusas. I'm not at all certain I'm not about to meet a horrible stony death.

    I think there may be a bug with fire guild expert spellbook generation in Enroth, because *every* expert fire spellbook I've seen in every elemental or fire guild since I started the game has been a Haste book. That smells fishy, because it's as if the *only* expert level fire spell is Haste.

    Anyhow, I just wanted to say I'm still having a blast with the mod. The level-scaling seems to make it so that no dungeon is able to be overwhelmed by superior levels any more, even before moving to a new continent. I guess that's both a blessing and a curse.

    I do think that maybe regeneration from a single point of meditation needs to be toned down, as running out of mana no longer seems to be a thing with only the single point. Maybe the extreme level-scaling compensates that?

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 846
    Yeah, I set Bolster to 5% as a matter of principle - I still get monsters with new/varied skills but without all the excessive health/armor class.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    edited February 2020
    @Pokota, wow, that's cool, man. I'm loving the newness of MM6 this mod is giving me.

    Okay, so I finished the archdruid quest in the Temple of the Moon. It was about January 3, I think, so apparently the phase of the moon does not exist in MM8 and has been made irrelevant. You only need to pray there with your druid at exactly midnight on any day of the month to finish the quest and the promotion.

    So, the medusas were significantly less scary because Master Protection from Magic. That spell also prevents poison. I had forgotten to cast it before, which is why we almost got poisoned to death. However, the gorgons were still scary because of massive physical damage from the scaling. My cleric almost got one-shot killed.

    As I've said before, some things are easier than vanilla, some things are harder. Blue cloaked druids don't seem to do spell point drain any more, but their Fireballs seem to be much stronger.

    It's looking to me like there was a lot of give and take in how MM6 in the MM8 engine has been balanced and tuned, but I'm liking it so far, especially with the enormous graphical upgrade. It's so nice to see the world in wide screen, with an appropriately unobtrusive interface, instead of the vanilla MM6 interface taking up half the screen as it does, with my viewing area confined to the upper left 1/3 or so of my screen. That's not to mention the vastly improved textures - no more pixelation.

    I guess I'll keep reporting in the thread as I discover new things.

    EDIT: BTW, training now takes a week per level, so no more speed running unless you use the Dragonsand exploit and do it as level one characters. I used to kind of obsess over finishing MM6 within one year and not wasting time, but in the vanilla game, you can train any number of levels in one week. That's gone. One thing I do like about it is that there's no longer a reason to put off training until you can bunch up levels. If you qualify to train a level, you might as well do it, because more than one level is going to take more than one week. Ten levels would take ten weeks.

    EDIT 2: I forgot to mention, I think druids may be overpowered now, because the restriction against grandmastery of any magic school has been removed. That means there's no reason at all to take a cleric over a druid except Light or Dark magic, and I've always found both of those to be very underwhelming. I guess I'll eventually try to get grandmaster Light magic with my cleric just to make him different from my druid, and see whether I think that was worth not just making him a druid.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 846
    GM Light Magic is the second-most important skill you can have for Enroth, though.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,649
    @Pokota, why so?

    I just found that one limiting factor in the merge is money, even more so than in vanilla. Grandmaster spellbooks cost an enormous amount of money. You have to combine that consideration with the fact that you now have *five* "mouths to feed" instead of four. I've found that expert Heal isn't worth much on fully promoted characters. You really need at least master Heal.

    If you're running both a druid and a cleric, as I am, you have to still make some choices while leveling. I'm a fan of alchemy, so my druid is leveled to 10 in that and now has grandmaster alchemy. Which still requires me to buy formulae and reagents to be any good. (And I shamelessly save-scummed several times to solve what formula puzzles I could afford. Of which I could only solve about 2 of 5 or 6 from what reagents I could find and afford. Alchemy is a very demanding mistress, unless you flat out cheat by looking up all the solutions in the Tracker.)

    Leveling my druid in alchemy has given her less skill points to spend in self and elemental magic. Many build choices still have to be made among my cleric, my druid, and my sorcerer.

    Only my knight is very good with weapons. My archer is limited to expert level in everything but bow, my druid can only be an expert in mace or staff, but a master in daggers, my sorcerer can only master in staff while being limited to expert in daggers, and my cleric can only master maces.

    Similar considerations abound across the board.

    I don't know about "better" or "worse", but it's certainly a different game now. I'm fascinated to see where my KACSD party winds up in the long run.

    "Different" is very, very good for such an old game. :)

    Current skills:

    Note that my druid is still one level behind my original selection of four party members because she was one level behind when I recruited her from the training center in New Sorpigal a ways into the game. I've invested a bit more into Learning for her hoping to help her close the gap.

    I've taken to calling my archer "Imoen", and my druid "Jaheira". Even their voiced lines in the game resemble those characters with those portrait/avatar sets. The temptation to create and run a Baldur's Gate inspired party through the whole trilogy is always there.

    I've been watching the Syfy network series "The Magicians" lately, so I've started to think of my sorcerer as "Penny", since he looks and sounds just like that guy, and has the same powers. (Town Portal and Lloyd's Beacon).

    I lost my "no-reload" status already and I'm up to one "death". Actually, I never have reloaded except for those alchemy experiments. I accepted the consequences of the one death and lost about 5,000 gold. It happened when I got overconfident and tried to close to melee range with several master archers ("fire archers"), and promptly got party wiped via Fireballs.

    Maybe I shouldn't have taken those reloads for the alchemy experiments. Right now, I'm into playtesting the Merge and seeing where it goes, but I still think this game lends itself very well to a no-reload challenge, especially now that the Merge gives the opportunity to do the Baldur's Gate equivalent of a trilogy no-reload run.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 846
    edited February 2020
    Enroth has the most monsters to chew through out of the three continents by a very wide margin - Might and Magics 7 and 8 went less with "Sea of Monsters" style difficulty and more with "Few Super Strong Monsters."

    Since you have to chew through a sea of monsters to get through a few of the plot-critical dungeons in Enroth, you want to have your best buff spells at the ready. Guess what school of magic they all ended up in...?

    To better explain the difference in design style, consider the uselessness of Finger of Death - it's useless in MM6 because there are too many monsters to justify spending the MP on it, while in MM7/8 the enemies you'd want to use it on if it still existed are immune to the spell school anyway.

    Post edited by Pokota on
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