Any good tutorial on how to learn to mod IE? I wanna make a 5e warlock class.
SorcererV1ct0r
Member Posts: 2,176
First, why i wanna create a WLK mod?
Initially i was thinking on making a 3.5e warlock into 2, but seems extremely hard to make most invocations work since it will be a new spell effect for each invocation. There are some actual warlock mods but they seem extremely similar to nwn2 ultra nerfed version of warlock where his invocations doesn't scale to his level, chilling tentacles never grapples, word of changing can't transform enemies into toads, etc. And warlocks always was good as sorcerers/wizards, on 2e(as a kit, not a class), on 3.5e(complete arcane) and 5e(Core class). Other problem of 3.5e is the non OGL nature of the complete arcane. Despite being my favorite version, i think that i will use the 5e version and do some changes not to nerf, but only to add more flavor and make the pact more important. It would be a SUBclass of sorcerer. With far less spells know, like only one lv 1 spell at lv 1 instead of 2 spells knowns but at hither level the warlock would be able to cast each spell like 9 times per day instead of 6. And gain increased casting speed.
It is a fair interpretation of 5e warlocks which regain power on short rest and 3.5e warlocks with unlimited power adapted to 2e.
The details of the class.
Hit DICE = d6. Everything else, like sorcerer kit.
Base kit = Sorcerer.
He will maintain the trading versatility for more power that is present in all iterations of WLK(2e,3.5e and 5e). The class description would be something like
One change inspired by DDO that i think that would be cool and make each pact more unique is if half of eldritch blast damage is magical and half dependent on your patron(that the player will chose as a sorcerer subkit. Each one with a alingment restriction. Eg - Fiends = only evil. Water Elemental = only chaotic, etc). Eg >
The EB would be on "powers", not spells since they are at will. Each warlock would also get a at will invocation(on power) on lv 10(at 11 on 3.5e, they get a greater invocation)
On NWN1 with PRC mod, the grapple check for Warlock Black Tentacles is the following
I don't know how to implement something like this on 2e. Is possible to try hit the enemy with a attack and if hit, inflicts paralyzes and give +1 THAC0 per caster level?
Now my problem
I spended 3 hours reading a lot of topics mentioning WEIDU and NOTHING.
Din't even find how to downlaod on the site and configure the game directory. How to open scrips, how to compile and do other things. Learning how to code for web or desktop was extremely more easy than it. I can't know anything. I don't even know if i downloaded the right thing since they only talk about dialog and i don't wanna change dialog, i wanna change the class features.
Should i download DLTCEP? Some people recommended it but seems like the link is offline.
I can't even learn the basic. Is just too confuse.
Anyone know a good tutorial that shows everything, like where to donwload, how to configure, HAS EXAMPLES of changes made in kits and etc?
I know that will give me a lot of work and soon i will have less free time, so even if i learn how to mod, don't expect this mod soon. If i an having trouble even making weidu work, imagine making proper major changes to spells per day, spell lists, giving new abilities, implementing new powers, etc.
Initially i was thinking on making a 3.5e warlock into 2, but seems extremely hard to make most invocations work since it will be a new spell effect for each invocation. There are some actual warlock mods but they seem extremely similar to nwn2 ultra nerfed version of warlock where his invocations doesn't scale to his level, chilling tentacles never grapples, word of changing can't transform enemies into toads, etc. And warlocks always was good as sorcerers/wizards, on 2e(as a kit, not a class), on 3.5e(complete arcane) and 5e(Core class). Other problem of 3.5e is the non OGL nature of the complete arcane. Despite being my favorite version, i think that i will use the 5e version and do some changes not to nerf, but only to add more flavor and make the pact more important. It would be a SUBclass of sorcerer. With far less spells know, like only one lv 1 spell at lv 1 instead of 2 spells knowns but at hither level the warlock would be able to cast each spell like 9 times per day instead of 6. And gain increased casting speed.
It is a fair interpretation of 5e warlocks which regain power on short rest and 3.5e warlocks with unlimited power adapted to 2e.
The details of the class.
Hit DICE = d6. Everything else, like sorcerer kit.
Base kit = Sorcerer.
He will maintain the trading versatility for more power that is present in all iterations of WLK(2e,3.5e and 5e). The class description would be something like
"some people learn magic by studding, other by blood, but you learn by becoming a apprentice of a outsider force which you serve in exchange of eldritch knowledge. You are not like a cleric which draws his power from a deity but defying your master is not a wise action. If you do things against your master(or change your alignment), you can no longer learn for your master and consequently will not level up again."
One change inspired by DDO that i think that would be cool and make each pact more unique is if half of eldritch blast damage is magical and half dependent on your patron(that the player will chose as a sorcerer subkit. Each one with a alingment restriction. Eg - Fiends = only evil. Water Elemental = only chaotic, etc). Eg >
- Water elemental/Lurker = Half damage cold / Half magical -> d4 damage per caster level.
- Devil/Demon = Half fire / Half magical -> d4 damage per caster elvel
- Great Old One = Half Acid / Half Bludgeoning 0> d4 damage per caster level
- Undying pact = d4 magical damage / caster level
The EB would be on "powers", not spells since they are at will. Each warlock would also get a at will invocation(on power) on lv 10(at 11 on 3.5e, they get a greater invocation)
- Devil/Demon will get Eldritch cloud = Similar to incendiary cloud but has smaller area and deals half magical damage and half fire damage
- Undying pact would get a at will animate dead.
- Great old one would get "acid tentacle" which is similar to 3.5e black tentacles but deals acid damage and d4 damage/ caster level
- Water;Kurker would get the "frost tentacle" which is similar to 3.5e black tentacles but deals cold damage and d4 damage/ caster level
On NWN1 with PRC mod, the grapple check for Warlock Black Tentacles is the following
1d20 + caster level (to a maximum of 20) + 4(tentacle's strength modifier) + 4(tentacle's size modifier) versus 1d20 + base attack bonus + strength modifier + size modifier.
I don't know how to implement something like this on 2e. Is possible to try hit the enemy with a attack and if hit, inflicts paralyzes and give +1 THAC0 per caster level?
Now my problem
I spended 3 hours reading a lot of topics mentioning WEIDU and NOTHING.
Din't even find how to downlaod on the site and configure the game directory. How to open scrips, how to compile and do other things. Learning how to code for web or desktop was extremely more easy than it. I can't know anything. I don't even know if i downloaded the right thing since they only talk about dialog and i don't wanna change dialog, i wanna change the class features.
Should i download DLTCEP? Some people recommended it but seems like the link is offline.
I can't even learn the basic. Is just too confuse.
Anyone know a good tutorial that shows everything, like where to donwload, how to configure, HAS EXAMPLES of changes made in kits and etc?
I know that will give me a lot of work and soon i will have less free time, so even if i learn how to mod, don't expect this mod soon. If i an having trouble even making weidu work, imagine making proper major changes to spells per day, spell lists, giving new abilities, implementing new powers, etc.
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Comments
While 5E's warlock is a bit more approachable I think, I'd try to set your initial expectations lower so that you can then build things up as you get more comfortable with WeiDU/scripting/etc.
Yep this is basically everyone's initial experience with modding these games. WeiDU is a powerful tool, but dear lord is figuring out how to use it awful (especially if you're programming background emphasizes languages with silly features like objects and good control structures
For example, I learned the basics of writing kit mods by reading through the code of G3's Divine Remix. For figuring out how to mod mages/sorcerers, I'm gonna self-promote and suggest that you take a look at Tome and Blood (my first big mod, currently being maintained by SubtleDoctor). Feel free to ping me if you have questions about things, I'd be happy to help where I can.
Thanks for the hint, but even the basic i can't learn. I don't know even how to configure WeiDU and download the DLTCEP. Not after i make a script, how i compile? How i pick the sorcerer kit and change the spells per day and number of spells learned? After it, i can just learn how to create spells, create few spell like abilities and that is it. Most of things that i want will be on the class.
NWN2 is far easier to mod.
Anyway, thanks for the hint. I can't even make WeiDU work. NWN2 was far easier to mod.
As for kjeron's warlock mod for IWDEE, seems AMAZING. Most faithful 3.5e adaptation ever. Can i use it on other games like BG:EE? And it has multiple summons? I hate being capped to a single summon! I will download and test it.
Thanks so much for your mod. All others warlock mods used the Butchered NWN2 version of warlock and din't cared about 3.5e. My unique concern was guys asking for one summon limit on your thread(why? I hate being capped into only one summon in any game). Even if is bugged due the lack of updates, worth a try. dDespite the only one summon limit, other thing that makes me concerned is that on P&P chilling tentacles have Caster Level Duration. On your Mod is just 4 rounds(which ruins the invocation at higher levels). And that Word of Changing seems to have a HP cap contrary to P&P which can transform even dragons into chickens. 60 hp cap kinda ruins any practical use of the invocation.
But still far better than any other WLK mod that i saw.
How did you learned how to use WeiDU? Is just the hardest tool to learn that i saw. I an honestly even thinking on giving up. Is just too hard and nobody shows how to make even the basic things. Honestly is being extremely frustrating. In all tutorials, they put piles and piles of texts showing scripts but NOT HOW TO MAKE IT RUN, how to configure, etc. Where i put my scripts. How i can load the sorcerer class and make alterations on it, etc.
And all tutorials are the same thing. No one teaches the basic.
Imagine learning how to program in C that way. They show a bunch of codes, but nobody saying how to use a Compiler, what is a .h archive and a .c archive, what is a make, etc. It would be equally frustrating seeing a lot of codes and being unable to use then. And that is my experience with WeiDU. A lot of useless readings and no clue about the most basic thing.
One thing that makes me hate nwn2 wlk is that now everyone who din't played P&P 3.5e seems to think that they are "lesser archers" and not a sorcerer/wizard equivalent(they are on 2e, on 3.5e, on 5e and witches on pathfinder are similar to warlocks) and even sorcerers/witchers received massive butchering/nerfs on nwn2.
Is WeiDU kind of awful to learn? Yes. Are there alternatives? Not really at this time.
This is even giving me PTSD's of the times that i had to spend nights to learn how to use 80s tools that nobody uses due awful university professor demands and was a endless stress of try and error, read, read, try and error.... I an not joking, even had to start to use medications due the amount of frustration and stress. If someone put a friendly tutorial showing the basic of WeiDU, MAYBE i change my mind but i will not spend my sanity and time trying to learn something that require endless hours of trying and error or IRL divination magic to work.
I will just hope that someday, someone will mod the 3.5e warlock WITHOUT NERFS or the nwn2 butchered version or the 5e warlock into Infinity Engine...
Much like other languages, WeiDU has a long uptake time where you get comfortable with the syntax, the file structures, and the tools (namely NearInfinity and DLTCP). Honestly, if you are prone to frustration about a programming language being unintuitive, you should probably just turn back now. I'm not saying that lightly; I'm saying that because a lot of the time I spend/spent working on my mods was finding the boundaries of what WeiDU/the engine would even let me do. There aren't clear demarcations between what is and what isn't doable, and figuring them out requires a LOT of trial and error. For example, I do not believe that the engine would let you set a creature's alignment to one you created outside of the core 9, and even if it looked like it did, it would probably treat it equivalently to True Neutral. I still run into this type of problem... some 6 years after I started modding.
If you do want to learn, download NearInfinity, a copy of WeiDU, and a kit mod of your choice (I'll plug Tome and Blood again, but any of the dozens of kit mods will do). Open up the .tp2 and .tpa files in a text editor, and read through what the modder is doing in the section that is relevant for you (hint: use the search term "ADD_KIT" to find sections in a mod file where the modder is adding a new kit to the game). Install that kit into your game (through the usual WeiDU executable), and then go and open any files that are mentioned (e.g. .spls, .itm, .eff, etc) in NearInfinity to see what they're doing. There really isn't any other way to learn, unfortunately. Look up the ADD_KIT function as well as how CLAB files work in the documentation to understand how kits are added to menus, how things like proficiencies and ability score requirements are generated, and how class abilities are distributed.
Once you understand generally what is happening, try to recreate the kit you're looking at by yourself (using mod files you've been looking at for guidance). By doing this, you'll learn how to make each of the relevant file types, how to write your ADD_KIT commands, and how to structure your own mod files. Once it installs, you should know enough to begin working on your own.
IDK... maybe I'm wasting my time. WeIDU doesn't really have shortcuts, and there is a lot of hidden engine functionality that isn't fully understood even today. If those things bother you, maybe this isn't for you.
No AoE spell in these games lasts one round / caster level (there are technical reason for this, in addition to balance), so that won't be happening in any of my mods, those that would last a fixed 1 turn. I didn't give it the 1 turn duration most others have because the existing AoE spells are either damaging or disabling, rarely both, as Chilling Tentacles is. It may work in PnP because monsters aren't stupid enough to run through and stand around in them, and some games fix this through AI, but not these games.
As for the summon limit - when updated, the deterioration mechanic will be simplified (and subsequently reduced), thanks to new mechanics. Utterdark Blast will also be able to remove any current deterioration from them, in addition to healing them, allowing them to be maintained indefinitely with it, as intended.
It still won't last too long without Utterdark though, since Animate Dead only lasts 8 hours in BG, and resting will no longer affect The Dead Walk's duration.
Was not hard to learn C/C++. On technical school, the professor showed a lot of examples and install the first IDE(Dev Cpp) was extremely easy. Next, Next and confirm. Qt Creator and Visual Studio din't required 1% of the wasted effort to make Weidu works... Netbeans for Java was easy to install too and learn. Python, i was using Chatterbot and doing AI stuff literally one month after my "hello world". When i worked as a pascal developer, i literally learned Pascal in a weekend to do a job testing on Monday and somehow got approved. Get used to the specific code standards to the job was far harder but nothing impossible.
I only had problem learning a little of WEB and for Android(i really miss Nokia Symbian, was so easier); a lot of disconnected texts that don't say anything that you need to know.
If i could just read the archives and then edit, then i will try to make this mod work.
Thanks a lot for your answer. And thanks a lot for your mod. After i finish my Pale Master IWD run, i will install your mod. Looks by far the best. I understand that there are engine limitations.
Pathfinder Kingmaker has a invocation called Deadly Earth. It has lesser duration than Chilling Tentacles(is your CON modifier), only slows instead of disable but deals a lot of damage. Magma deadly earth is a WIN BUTTON. Not only due enemy AI but also because winged creatures can't just ignore ground effects.
But...
On DDO, Black Tentacles is even better than P&P, despite the small duration, a single cast and... 5d4 * Caster Level damage on total + additional (d4 / caster level) if they fail the saves, they can take 10d4*cater level "(...)While inside the zone, enemies are Slowed (no save). Every 2 seconds, enemies within the zone must make a successful Strength save or become Entangled by the tentacles for 10 seconds. All enemies within the zone take 1d4 Bludgeoning damage per caster level (Scales with Spell Power) every 2 seconds as the tentacles try to grab them, and an additional 1d4 per caster level if Entangled. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half. Tentacles may continue to hold enemies after the zone fades, though they will not deal damage."
https://ddowiki.com/page/Evard's_Black_Tentacles
The unique thing that i hate on DDO is the cooldowns and the attribute inflation + spellpower meaning that you can do thousands of points of damage at epic levels. Ahh and you can use metamagic(empower and maximize) on black tentacles. And they seem to grapple larger creatures(which on P&P they can't grapple but i an not sure) And other spells don't have this huge buff. Fireballs for eg, deals 10d6 max damage.
I an not asking to change, in fact i an really grateful to your hard work. Only showing how things are on other games. Seems that you can have multiple undeads(thus they aren't long lasting undeads which is amazing non the less).
All of this talk is just a talk about how a spell can the worthless in some games(nwn2) and the main reason to why people consider WLK superior to wiz/sorc in other games and ask this spell to be added to wiz/sorc spellbook list ( https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/501110-Evard-s-black-tentacles-poll?p=6156251&highlight= )
BUT, to put frustration of inability to learn WeiDu on modders is in my opinions inappropriate. They are trying to help you, they all learned WeiDu the hard way.
You are right. Sorry if i was uneducated towards someone. I just got a lot of frustration and was unprepared.
But honestly. I will not do the mod that I was planning unless someone develops an better tutorial or a better tool which allow me to change things like resistances by just setting a "pointer", like i can do with CE(CE is not a good modding tool but you got the idea)
What i honestly din't liked on EVERY warlock mod that i saw is that due the """""balancing""""" dogma in a SP game(the focus on balance rather than challenge, fun and immersion is why 4e existed, why we don't have good modern D&D adaptations and BG3 will gonna be low level only), not considering purists mods like warlock reworked for nwn2 and PRC for nwn1, the best iteration of WLK that i saw was on DDO a MP game where balance is more important. And the class is only powerful because is a premium class. Nobody would pay VIP or for the class on the store, if the class is under-performing.
I tough that 5e warlock would be easier to mod since you don't need to implement dozens of new spells. Implementing Eldritch Blast and Tentacles for a lurker warlock and more one or two powers depending on your pact and set the sorcerers tables to have less spells known but more spells per day(which i can just use the same pointer). Maybe a little of resistance depending your pact too. Din't seem that hard to implement.
WeiDU is not the problem. The problem is that nobody explains the basic.
On NWN2, i can literally with notepad open spells.2da and change a spell school and range or the metamagic applicable. I can make If i wanna change the animate dead spell, i just need o change the file. If i wanna add the "lurker warlock" class and restrict the alignment to non lawful, i can just copy the variable from the flag "AlignRestrict" of the Barbarian on the classes.2da to the new class. Can change the class icon to use any icon, etc.
If i wanna make any spell change, i can just find on spells.2da, find the script, change the .NSS and then compile. But there are already amazing nwn2 mods that fixes spells and classes.
Anyone who knows the basics on codding can make anything on nwn2.
However, the Aurora Engine was designed to give players all the tools they wanted. Along with the PRC mod you have mentioned, there is also this mod:
https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/warlock-reworked-102g
You also have to take note the rules this or that game uses. It's apparent the vision you have about warlocks would suit NWN (if anything) more than BG. @AionZ created a mod for IE based on how IE games play, not based on "one true PnP implementation".
With additional customization the EE has allowed for, you'd have a much easier and better experience trying to mod the warlock as you wish in NWN than in BG.
Thanks a lot for the answer. About AionZ mod, is not inspired by any P&P ruleset but looks like he took inspiration in nwn2 version of warlock which IMO is by far the worst iteration. I an not criticizing him, only saying that i like when someone who makes a pact and learn magic from a dangerous outsider patron is not weaker than a wizard or a sorcerer. Is that way that WLK's worked in all P&P iterations(2e as a wiz subkit, 3.5e - complete arcane, 5e, pathfinder 1e, pathfinder 2e as witch...), more raw power but less versatility. But some people like "balance" above immersion, challenge, fun, variety, etc; And it is just my personal taste.
That said, Witches and Winter Witches will come on Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous. 5e Warlocks of Great Old One pact and Fiend pact will come on Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access. So, if i wanna really hard play as a apprentice of a eldritch outsider force, i can
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/warlock:great-old-one
And honestly, Grasp of the Deep on a turn based game would be so awesome...
I know it's not particularly helpful, because you've already seen it, but this kit tutorial helped me create my own:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/34119/how-to-making-kit-mods-for-the-ee/p1
I have to reread tutorials a few times over to really grasp the info, sometimes. Take it line by line, and when you run into a genuine hurdle you can identify a specific problem you need help with.
It's frustrating at first, but not as daunting or as hard as it looks.
The first time I don't even think I touched Weidu. I was looking at DLCTEP and WEIDU documentation, and was so overwhelmed with all of the things involved that I gave up. It wasn't like NWN's toolset at all. Not what I was looking for, or so I thought.
The second time I got a lot closer. I was in college, a few years transitioning from a music composition major to a creative writing major and minoring in computer science. It was stressful, and I was playing Baldur's Gate to relive good old days, and greatly enjoyed some NPC Mods I had downloaded from Lava and wanted to give it a try. It took days to make any progress, but I had an NPC that was finally spawning in, a halfling wizard (Totally illegal, I know!). Her conversations weren't working though, and eventually I did something that just broke everything (Probably a bad ~, to be honest with myself. Sad times.) I gave up.
I tried a third time, which I detailed a little bit here. https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/74509/a-new-modder-s-experience/p1 . And now I have five different mods done, with hopefully more to come in the future.
So I would discourage you from giving up. Instead, ask us what you are looking for. Most of us can get you started and looking in the right direction. It will require patience, but that's key to programming anyway. It takes some people years to get their first mod, so don't worry about not having time. If you have a passion, go for it. Let nothing stop you.
That Eldritch Glaive pun pun warlock on 3.5e that can dish 68d6 damage in a single round or 238 average damage if the four attacks hit(17d6). And i an not considering his metamagic on spell like abilities.. And even at range, he can deal 17d6 damage at 250 feet targeting touch attack and no reflex save like a wiz. That is far more than any archer a +5 bow can do. And since is a warlock, he can fly, become invisible, teleport, throw tentacles to grapple enemies with 28 AB at lv 20. Even without min maxing, a warlock 20, can deal 4 * 9d6 damage with eldritch glaive.
Anyway, a meme