Since there is a "positive ONLY, no criticism" thread, shouldn't this thread be "criticism ONLY"?
well this thread is the only place criticism is allowed. we arnt allowed to do it in the annocement thread. and we have to have played the game to do it in the spoiler thread.
Yes exactly. This thread is where those of us who are critics have been banished to. So at least in this thread I for one would like to be free of: "Rah, rah BG3!! Awesomest game ever made!!" kind of stuff. Because if certain forumites are "tired" of having to read through our critical posts, then I too am equally tired of having to read through the cheerleading posts with the ridiculous level of spinning for BG3 as the game that is beyond any and all criticism.
One more criticism to sort of mirror something in the positive thread about the first companion being someone you do not expect being a good thing. Maybe.
One problem I have with the companions is how much gameplay trumps story here - none of them feels like he should be a level 1 PC. It is like BG 1 having Gorion join you and then he is a level 1 mage.
To be fair this is true to some extent in the old games. Khalid and Jaheira were on the low side, though to be fair they were a level higher and that D&D edition had the level 2 = elite warrior (think Special Forces). Aerie was a bad offender as well in the opposite direction. But in BG 3 it seems like every single NPC.
It's obviously done for balance reasons, but it's a pattern in every RPG. Often it can be handwaived away, but some obvious cases are hard to stomach. Shepard in Mass Effect is, depending on your background, an N7 combat veteran. Who is lvl 1.
Or more on-topic: Asterion. A centuries old vampire who has been working all that time for his sire. Lvl 1. It's not his most annoying trait though.
And it could be just his own bravado, but Gale is supposed to be this grand wizard. My dude, I can see your character sheet and spell list. Scrub.
80-90% of the containers in the game are empty. It gets to be a bit tiring frankly to look in a crate and find nothing. Especially when there are so many containers .
Is there also no button to highlight them, like there isn't in DOS2?
Isn't a criticism of the game per se, but I went to the steam forums on the game and I see way to many people getting banned or threads locked for legit criticism.
Isn't a criticism of the game per se, but I went to the steam forums on the game and I see way to many people getting banned or threads locked for legit criticism.
from what i'm hearing the steam forum has alot of negativity in it and also alot of fanboyism.
Isn't a criticism of the game per se, but I went to the steam forums on the game and I see way to many people getting banned or threads locked for legit criticism.
Who does this? Is it Steam or is it Larian that has this power?
Isn't a criticism of the game per se, but I went to the steam forums on the game and I see way to many people getting banned or threads locked for legit criticism.
from what i'm hearing the steam forum has alot of negativity in it and also alot of fanboyism.
I heard that too. I rarely venture into the Steam forums, and if I do it is for old games, so I just never saw it before.
Who does this? Is it Steam or is it Larian that has this power?
reading the steam forum now those defending the game are calling people saying it's not a real bg game "trolls."
Try saying something bad about BG3 on the Reddit *BG 1 and 2* forum. Watch your "karma" total fall from the massive downvotes.
EDIT: I think it's a symptom of our social-media obsessed society's being sick to the core that merely expressing an unpopular opinion online causes extreme hostility and division into "us vs. them". I include myself among the guilty people susceptible to being swept up by this problem, to the point I have to meditate, connect to the Source, and remind myself how trivial it all is, and that I need to reduce my social media use for my own mental health and spiritual enlightenment.
Ya the Steam forum is quite toxic. It had little moderation until like a week ago.
There are about 4 or 5 Larian Fanboys who troll anyone who comes into complain until those complaining say something that is a bannable offence then they flag the criticizer to get them banned.
They will repeat the same arguments over and over again so that another poster will do the same and then get them banned for spam as an example.
It is a quite pathetic place IMO. I pipe up now and again there to put them in there place but really, it’s not worth it anymore.
Until last week Steam handled the moderation through the flagging system. Now there is at least one mod hired by Larian (kinda like what @Bengoshi does on the EE Steam pages) that has taken over.
I do lurk the forums there as I attempt to get as many view points on this game as possible, I am still interested in it but I am going to wait until it is at least fully released and then discounted. How discounted depends on the overall vibe I get about the game.
80-90% of the containers in the game are empty. It gets to be a bit tiring frankly to look in a crate and find nothing. Especially when there are so many containers .
Is there also no button to highlight them, like there isn't in DOS2?
There is the Alt key but in my experience you also get plenty of containers/monsters that have loot in them. I'm not sure how effective it is.
Also frankly having to down a key any time I want to know if I should look at a container just seems excessive. Just have less containers or have containers that, when clicked on, don't open up but instead just given an overhead message like "this container is empty". Right now you still have to click to close the window for empty containers.
Ya the Steam forum is quite toxic. It had little moderation until like a week ago.
There are about 4 or 5 Larian Fanboys who troll anyone who comes into complain until those complaining say something that is a bannable offence then they flag the criticizer to get them banned.
They will repeat the same arguments over and over again so that another poster will do the same and then get them banned for spam as an example.
It is a quite pathetic place IMO. I pipe up now and again there to put them in there place but really, it’s not worth it anymore.
Until last week Steam handled the moderation through the flagging system. Now there is at least one mod hired by Larian (kinda like what @Bengoshi does on the EE Steam pages) that has taken over.
I do lurk the forums there as I attempt to get as many view points on this game as possible, I am still interested in it but I am going to wait until it is at least fully released and then discounted. How discounted depends on the overall vibe I get about the game.
If you want to see toxic check out what people wrote about this guys review of the game. Someone who actually worked on the original games.
(or maybe don't check it. I can't guarantee the comments won't have spoilers and some of them get pretty nasty over a review).
That's an interesting perspective to read. Folks should click and follow the link, even if they don't scroll to the comments.
However, I take a bunch of issues with his comparisons. I'll isolate one here, which has gotten alot of mileage on this forum: lack of NPC choice. I don't think the NPC choice early in BG1 or even BG2 is actually as great as he's remembering.
I don't think it's fair to include the EE companions in this comparison. Maybe when BG3 gets all its DLC or its own EE (like with OS) in a few years. So I'm going to compare to the base game.
An Early Access of BG1 probably might've been just enough to get you through the Nashkel mines. So I think that's a fair comparison point. What NPC's are generally available here, in a typical playthrough?
No good-aligned wizards for one. Xzar and Edwin. Dynaheir way far out of the way for a new, low-level party to get to safely imo. That seems beyond what we're getting in the EA here. Xan would be available only at the very tail end of this segment. Essentially not available for playing through the meat of the EA.
Your only cleric: Branwen. And acquired kind of late.
Your only druid: Jaheira.
Thieves: Montaron or Imoen.
Your only bard: Garrick -- and thus only non-evil arcane magic user.
Pretty good spread on the fighters: Khalid, Minsc, Kivan (maybe included), Kagain. No paladins though.
I know I'm excluding some higher level areas that veteran players know you can sneak into and snatch NPC's like Viconia or Ajantis from. But again, would those sections be fair to compare to this EA? I don't think so. Forgive me if I missed some here. Also this number has to be larger given the party size difference.
That is a big selection but keep in mind all these NPC's were made with little backstory, almost no personal quests among them, no bearing on the main plot. The problem in BG2 is actually imo quite comparable to what people are complaining about now in BG3 EA. Because both games focused on fewer but deeper NPC's. Want a good-aligned cleric, or an evil one? You have one option. Both of whom come off as arrogant and obnoxious on first joining imo. The thief NPC options for the full BG2 are notoriously limited in their breadth.
And further the review goes into favorably comparing PoE to BG on this point... which, seems flat out wrong to me. One NPC of every class, with several classes missing except in the DLC, is not great. Especially considering the combat prowess of certain classes in that game -- notably Cleric and Wizard. I will however agree with that reviewer that Kingmaker did a pretty good job on the NPC's.
Ya the Steam forum is quite toxic. It had little moderation until like a week ago.
There are about 4 or 5 Larian Fanboys who troll anyone who comes into complain until those complaining say something that is a bannable offence then they flag the criticizer to get them banned.
They will repeat the same arguments over and over again so that another poster will do the same and then get them banned for spam as an example.
It is a quite pathetic place IMO. I pipe up now and again there to put them in there place but really, it’s not worth it anymore.
Until last week Steam handled the moderation through the flagging system. Now there is at least one mod hired by Larian (kinda like what @Bengoshi does on the EE Steam pages) that has taken over.
I do lurk the forums there as I attempt to get as many view points on this game as possible, I am still interested in it but I am going to wait until it is at least fully released and then discounted. How discounted depends on the overall vibe I get about the game.
If you want to see toxic check out what people wrote about this guys review of the game. Someone who actually worked on the original games.
(or maybe don't check it. I can't guarantee the comments won't have spoilers and some of them get pretty nasty over a review).
Well I agree with the review, and basically what I have been saying since its announcement (even the joke Baldur's Gate: (Incoming) Illithid Invasion or BG:III). It's going to be a good game, but they shouldn't have called it BG3. The name carries expectations, and those expectations are going to be missed.
Onto the comments... yep, more people who just can't comprehend that Baldur's Gate uses D&D mechanics and is not D&D. And actually I also want to start the discussion of what real time with pause is. It's converting rounds to its real time equivalent of six seconds. Which I don't think people who harp on it realizes. It is AD&D mechanics as the mechanics are happening and a computer calculates all the rolls in the background. Characters move at the speed they do because that is how far they can travel in a round (or 6 seconds).
A couple of others complaining about design choices of a 20 year old game that actually modernized how crpgs are made and missing one of the reviewers biggest points that games should improve with time, not lie stagnant. Read 7 pages of the comments, I think I have more important things to do, like clean the mildew out of my shower. Others going to the well used 'boomer' insult as if it has meaning in an discussion...
Not really that toxic though. A few trolls... forums are much worse.
My basic opinion at this point is that it reminds me of Dragon Age. Not in playstyle or aesthetic but in the sense that it is above average, but not great.
I expect more out of anything carrying the BG title, but I can't say I hate the game. I also can't say I love it either.
(or maybe don't check it. I can't guarantee the comments won't have spoilers and some of them get pretty nasty over a review).
That's an interesting perspective to read. Folks should click and follow the link, even if they don't scroll to the comments.
However, I take a bunch of issues with his comparisons. I'll isolate one here, which has gotten alot of mileage on this forum: lack of NPC choice. I don't think the NPC choice early in BG1 or even BG2 is actually as great as he's remembering.
I don't think it's fair to include the EE companions in this comparison. Maybe when BG3 gets all its DLC or its own EE (like with OS) in a few years. So I'm going to compare to the base game.
An Early Access of BG1 probably might've been just enough to get you through the Nashkel mines. So I think that's a fair comparison point. What NPC's are generally available here, in a typical playthrough?
No good-aligned wizards for one. Xzar and Edwin. Dynaheir way far out of the way for a new, low-level party to get to safely imo. That seems beyond what we're getting in the EA here. Xan would be available only at the very tail end of this segment. Essentially not available for playing through the meat of the EA.
Your only cleric: Branwen. And acquired kind of late.
Your only druid: Jaheira.
Thieves: Montaron or Imoen.
Your only bard: Garrick -- and thus only non-evil arcane magic user.
Pretty good spread on the fighters: Khalid, Minsc, Kivan (maybe included), Kagain. No paladins though.
I know I'm excluding some higher level areas that veteran players know you can sneak into and snatch NPC's like Viconia or Ajantis from. But again, would those sections be fair to compare to this EA? I don't think so. Forgive me if I missed some here. Also this number has to be larger given the party size difference.
That is a big selection but keep in mind all these NPC's were made with little backstory, almost no personal quests among them, no bearing on the main plot. The problem in BG2 is actually imo quite comparable to what people are complaining about now in BG3 EA. Because both games focused on fewer but deeper NPC's. Want a good-aligned cleric, or an evil one? You have one option. Both of whom come off as arrogant and obnoxious on first joining imo. The thief NPC options for the full BG2 are notoriously limited in their breadth.
And further the review goes into favorably comparing PoE to BG on this point... which, seems flat out wrong to me. One NPC of every class, with several classes missing except in the DLC, is not great. Especially considering the combat prowess of certain classes in that game -- notably Cleric and Wizard. I will however agree with that reviewer that Kingmaker did a pretty good job on the NPC's.
Ya no. You missed the point about companions and are comparing a game made over 20 years ago to a modern game which should be learning from its predecessors mistakes. I will also say that I believe the Gnoll Fortress is suppose to be done before the Mines and why Minsc is on a timer.
His gripe about the companions is that their attitudes and motivations are all similar. "I haven't played far enough to be fair, but initial impressions are there is a lot of anger and bossy people in this world, and not enough fun and adventure seeker'"
His gripe about the companions is that their attitudes and motivations are all similar.
And this is a fair criticism. BG companions felt very distinctive. Jaheira was different from Khalid who was different from Imoen. Shadowheart/Astarion/Githlady have many of the same personality traits and don't feel very different from each other. You might as well throw Wyl in there too because for all of his good guy act I can never not see his actions as evil.
Ya the Steam forum is quite toxic. It had little moderation until like a week ago.
There are about 4 or 5 Larian Fanboys who troll anyone who comes into complain until those complaining say something that is a bannable offence then they flag the criticizer to get them banned.
They will repeat the same arguments over and over again so that another poster will do the same and then get them banned for spam as an example.
It is a quite pathetic place IMO. I pipe up now and again there to put them in there place but really, it’s not worth it anymore.
Until last week Steam handled the moderation through the flagging system. Now there is at least one mod hired by Larian (kinda like what @Bengoshi does on the EE Steam pages) that has taken over.
I do lurk the forums there as I attempt to get as many view points on this game as possible, I am still interested in it but I am going to wait until it is at least fully released and then discounted. How discounted depends on the overall vibe I get about the game.
If you want to see toxic check out what people wrote about this guys review of the game. Someone who actually worked on the original games.
(or maybe don't check it. I can't guarantee the comments won't have spoilers and some of them get pretty nasty over a review).
...
Not really that toxic though. A few trolls... forums are much worse.
Yea I guess I thought it was worse than it was. Now that there are an extra 10 pages from when I last looked it may have helped to also cushion some of the worse comments too.
His gripe about the companions is that their attitudes and motivations are all similar.
And this is a fair criticism. BG companions felt very distinctive. Jaheira was different from Khalid who was different from Imoen. Shadowheart/Astarion/Githlady have many of the same personality traits and don't feel very different from each other.
Ya, that's the impression I am getting from reading different people's opinion about them.
And here's the catch: I don't think this is something Larian can fix or at least willing to fix. These are already voiced canned AND motion captured characters. Redoing a couple of scenes to prevent this would be expensive. I do hope they add more vibrant and unique characters to the game, but each new character is going to take up X amount more drive space.
I haven't played it yet (and I attempt to stay away from actual video spoilers) but it at least allows me to lower my expectations when I do get around to playing it.
(or maybe don't check it. I can't guarantee the comments won't have spoilers and some of them get pretty nasty over a review).
That's an interesting perspective to read. Folks should click and follow the link, even if they don't scroll to the comments.
However, I take a bunch of issues with his comparisons. I'll isolate one here, which has gotten alot of mileage on this forum: lack of NPC choice. I don't think the NPC choice early in BG1 or even BG2 is actually as great as he's remembering.
I don't think it's fair to include the EE companions in this comparison. Maybe when BG3 gets all its DLC or its own EE (like with OS) in a few years. So I'm going to compare to the base game.
An Early Access of BG1 probably might've been just enough to get you through the Nashkel mines. So I think that's a fair comparison point. What NPC's are generally available here, in a typical playthrough?
No good-aligned wizards for one. Xzar and Edwin. Dynaheir way far out of the way for a new, low-level party to get to safely imo. That seems beyond what we're getting in the EA here. Xan would be available only at the very tail end of this segment. Essentially not available for playing through the meat of the EA.
Your only cleric: Branwen. And acquired kind of late.
Your only druid: Jaheira.
Thieves: Montaron or Imoen.
Your only bard: Garrick -- and thus only non-evil arcane magic user.
Pretty good spread on the fighters: Khalid, Minsc, Kivan (maybe included), Kagain. No paladins though.
I know I'm excluding some higher level areas that veteran players know you can sneak into and snatch NPC's like Viconia or Ajantis from. But again, would those sections be fair to compare to this EA? I don't think so. Forgive me if I missed some here. Also this number has to be larger given the party size difference.
That is a big selection but keep in mind all these NPC's were made with little backstory, almost no personal quests among them, no bearing on the main plot. The problem in BG2 is actually imo quite comparable to what people are complaining about now in BG3 EA. Because both games focused on fewer but deeper NPC's. Want a good-aligned cleric, or an evil one? You have one option. Both of whom come off as arrogant and obnoxious on first joining imo. The thief NPC options for the full BG2 are notoriously limited in their breadth.
And further the review goes into favorably comparing PoE to BG on this point... which, seems flat out wrong to me. One NPC of every class, with several classes missing except in the DLC, is not great. Especially considering the combat prowess of certain classes in that game -- notably Cleric and Wizard. I will however agree with that reviewer that Kingmaker did a pretty good job on the NPC's.
Ya no. You missed the point about companions and are comparing a game made over 20 years ago to a modern game which should be learning from its predecessors mistakes. I will also say that I believe the Gnoll Fortress is suppose to be done before the Mines and why Minsc is on a timer.
His gripe about the companions is that their attitudes and motivations are all similar. "I haven't played far enough to be fair, but initial impressions are there is a lot of anger and bossy people in this world, and not enough fun and adventure seeker'"
I didn't make the initial comparison. The author of the Steam post did. Also flat out absurd to say that the gnoll fortress is done before the mines, considering the relative monster levels.
(or maybe don't check it. I can't guarantee the comments won't have spoilers and some of them get pretty nasty over a review).
That's an interesting perspective to read. Folks should click and follow the link, even if they don't scroll to the comments.
However, I take a bunch of issues with his comparisons. I'll isolate one here, which has gotten alot of mileage on this forum: lack of NPC choice. I don't think the NPC choice early in BG1 or even BG2 is actually as great as he's remembering.
I don't think it's fair to include the EE companions in this comparison. Maybe when BG3 gets all its DLC or its own EE (like with OS) in a few years. So I'm going to compare to the base game.
An Early Access of BG1 probably might've been just enough to get you through the Nashkel mines. So I think that's a fair comparison point. What NPC's are generally available here, in a typical playthrough?
No good-aligned wizards for one. Xzar and Edwin. Dynaheir way far out of the way for a new, low-level party to get to safely imo. That seems beyond what we're getting in the EA here. Xan would be available only at the very tail end of this segment. Essentially not available for playing through the meat of the EA.
Your only cleric: Branwen. And acquired kind of late.
Your only druid: Jaheira.
Thieves: Montaron or Imoen.
Your only bard: Garrick -- and thus only non-evil arcane magic user.
Pretty good spread on the fighters: Khalid, Minsc, Kivan (maybe included), Kagain. No paladins though.
I know I'm excluding some higher level areas that veteran players know you can sneak into and snatch NPC's like Viconia or Ajantis from. But again, would those sections be fair to compare to this EA? I don't think so. Forgive me if I missed some here. Also this number has to be larger given the party size difference.
That is a big selection but keep in mind all these NPC's were made with little backstory, almost no personal quests among them, no bearing on the main plot. The problem in BG2 is actually imo quite comparable to what people are complaining about now in BG3 EA. Because both games focused on fewer but deeper NPC's. Want a good-aligned cleric, or an evil one? You have one option. Both of whom come off as arrogant and obnoxious on first joining imo. The thief NPC options for the full BG2 are notoriously limited in their breadth.
And further the review goes into favorably comparing PoE to BG on this point... which, seems flat out wrong to me. One NPC of every class, with several classes missing except in the DLC, is not great. Especially considering the combat prowess of certain classes in that game -- notably Cleric and Wizard. I will however agree with that reviewer that Kingmaker did a pretty good job on the NPC's.
Ya no. You missed the point about companions and are comparing a game made over 20 years ago to a modern game which should be learning from its predecessors mistakes. I will also say that I believe the Gnoll Fortress is suppose to be done before the Mines and why Minsc is on a timer.
His gripe about the companions is that their attitudes and motivations are all similar. "I haven't played far enough to be fair, but initial impressions are there is a lot of anger and bossy people in this world, and not enough fun and adventure seeker'"
I didn't make the initial comparison. The author of the Steam post did. Also flat out absurd to say that the gnoll fortress is done before the mines, considering the relative monster levels.
No. You still missed his point. Here it is again:
Companions: So far there are 5 companions available, most likely one of which you will NEVER use, as party size is limited and you won't want to double up with your own protagonist's choice in class. I haven't played far enough to be fair, but initial impressions are there is a lot of anger and bossy people in this world, and not enough fun and adventure seeker's.
(Designer Mindset): Pathfinder: Kingmaker I feel did this wonderfully, as you had someone cheerful available near the start, along with someone barbaric, some morally questionable choices, some valorous choices and so on. So far it feels as though everyone is out for themselves, and it's a bit hard to like them a whole lot as a result.
He starts by saying you only have 4 slots, so for party dynamics, the player is probably not going to use the one in which the PC fills the role. He then goes on and says their personalities are all the same.
You then go on to list all the NPCs your party can recruit in a game made two decades ago, but that game actually made a conscious game design decision about party mechanics. They gave the player a full party by the time they hit FAI. A thief, a mage, a fighter, a healer, and a thief/tank. They also made sure that 2 pairs of those characters would hate each other and literally actually fight among themselves to inform the player, 'these aren't the companions you need to take with you on this journey.' You can find others. Those 4 companions had varying personalities in their shallowness.
Indications from some people who have played the game, such as the reviewer, the characters in BG3 are deeper, but they are all the similar bodies of water. There isn't enough variety to make it interesting. He did say he was early in the game, but these are the first impressions a person gets.
He starts by saying you only have 4 slots, so for party dynamics, the player is probably not going to use the one in which the PC fills the role. He then goes on and says their personalities are all the same.
You then go on to list all the NPCs your party can recruit in a game made two decades ago, but that game actually made a conscious game design decision about party mechanics....
I think you're just focused on a separate part of the review than I am. This is the section that stuck with me:
When we went from Baldur's Gate to Baldur's Gate 2, there was an emphasis on growing and expanding on what we could to give the player more choices and freedom. Adding subclasses, focusing on player choices in quests and the story, their companions and so on. There's not near enough choice in companions so far for me to be able to tell them to go to hell if I don't like them.
As I said in my summary of the first BG game, a player wanting certain tactical pieces in their party doesn't actually have a lot of freedom to tell some of the Chapter1-Chapter2 NPC's to "go to hell". Or, if they do, they will pay a heavy price by not having some key role adequately fulfilled. Perfect example is not having access to a decent arcane spellcaster that's good or neutral.
And to rebut people who want to focus on BG2, I get that in this passage he's also talking about BG2, but in that game my fact is also true. There are some harder to find NPCs like Cernd, Valygar, Mazzy, even slightly Keldorn. But your initial options from Irenicus' dungeon, Aerie and the Copper Coronet also do not give a ton of freedom to tell NPC's to "go to hell" if you don't like them. And of course, you have to complete a whole two-level dungeon with absolutely no options on NPC's.
His summary of the personalities also doesn't seem to match what several professional reviewers and what several members of this community have written. That seems like both a subjective point and one where it's crazy premature to judge. Again I didn't think every point in that review was wrongheaded. But I do think it's maybe unfairly comparing complete knowledge about NPC options and their arcs in one set of games with what we have now. As opposed to trying to imagine what a limited EA of BG1 or 2 would look like.
FWIW, by my count, the possible companions in BG2 from Irenicus' dungeon, Waukeens Promenade and the Copper Coronet are 8, thus meaning 9 playable characters. Or a full party plus 50%. Five companions is also a full party plus 50% with a player created sixth character in BG3.
reading the steam forum now those defending the game are calling people saying it's not a real bg game "trolls."
Try saying something bad about BG3 on the Reddit *BG 1 and 2* forum. Watch your "karma" total fall from the massive downvotes.
EDIT: I think it's a symptom of our social-media obsessed society's being sick to the core that merely expressing an unpopular opinion online causes extreme hostility and division into "us vs. them". I include myself among the guilty people susceptible to being swept up by this problem, to the point I have to meditate, connect to the Source, and remind myself how trivial it all is, and that I need to reduce my social media use for my own mental health and spiritual enlightenment.
Sorry that you have to go through this. I don't talk for others, but my reaction to some criticism of BG3 (or Larian previous games) is not because that criticism is unpopular. It happens because I genuinely don't agree with certain parts, I like those games and I'm trying to make- at least someone- start maybe considering not everything about the games is doom and gloom. I had a DOS walkthrough thread to share things I like about those games. When there is a situation when - I'd say - at least half of active community is against something that is dear to me I try to provide an alternate point of view which might (but most often, though, it does achieve nothing) influence the views of still neutral readers, which might make them not 100% sure something is bad and unfun.
After watching some videos on this game and considering my position, eh, I don't think I'm interested in this game. I've talked before about attaching the BG3 name to this game is purely a marketing ploy and a common one, but it's clear this is a Larian game and I made it clear in the past I thought Divinity Original Sin 2 was a shit game, and I genuinely do not understand why anyone likes it given its terrible encounter design, repetitive combat system and flatline storytelling, and hey, I came to that conclusion before there was even any indication Baldur's Gate 3 would be happening.
And it was naive of me to ever think this would somehow be different just because they slapped the D&D license onto it. Things like that don't really make much difference in the grand scheme, it's still the same designers and writers working on the thing and I think they're outright incompetent based on the design and writing of their last game.
That's kind of all I have to say on the matter, I have such a lack of interest in anything new being made all I've got are old games now, or games based around feeling like older games, but whatever, that's fine.
Comments
It's obviously done for balance reasons, but it's a pattern in every RPG. Often it can be handwaived away, but some obvious cases are hard to stomach. Shepard in Mass Effect is, depending on your background, an N7 combat veteran. Who is lvl 1.
Or more on-topic: Asterion. A centuries old vampire who has been working all that time for his sire. Lvl 1. It's not his most annoying trait though.
And it could be just his own bravado, but Gale is supposed to be this grand wizard. My dude, I can see your character sheet and spell list. Scrub.
Your attempts to keep thing civil and appease the communities here are admirable.
Is there also no button to highlight them, like there isn't in DOS2?
from what i'm hearing the steam forum has alot of negativity in it and also alot of fanboyism.
I heard that too. I rarely venture into the Steam forums, and if I do it is for old games, so I just never saw it before.
No idea but I would believe either one.
Try saying something bad about BG3 on the Reddit *BG 1 and 2* forum. Watch your "karma" total fall from the massive downvotes.
EDIT: I think it's a symptom of our social-media obsessed society's being sick to the core that merely expressing an unpopular opinion online causes extreme hostility and division into "us vs. them". I include myself among the guilty people susceptible to being swept up by this problem, to the point I have to meditate, connect to the Source, and remind myself how trivial it all is, and that I need to reduce my social media use for my own mental health and spiritual enlightenment.
There are about 4 or 5 Larian Fanboys who troll anyone who comes into complain until those complaining say something that is a bannable offence then they flag the criticizer to get them banned.
They will repeat the same arguments over and over again so that another poster will do the same and then get them banned for spam as an example.
It is a quite pathetic place IMO. I pipe up now and again there to put them in there place but really, it’s not worth it anymore.
Until last week Steam handled the moderation through the flagging system. Now there is at least one mod hired by Larian (kinda like what @Bengoshi does on the EE Steam pages) that has taken over.
I do lurk the forums there as I attempt to get as many view points on this game as possible, I am still interested in it but I am going to wait until it is at least fully released and then discounted. How discounted depends on the overall vibe I get about the game.
There is the Alt key but in my experience you also get plenty of containers/monsters that have loot in them. I'm not sure how effective it is.
Also frankly having to down a key any time I want to know if I should look at a container just seems excessive. Just have less containers or have containers that, when clicked on, don't open up but instead just given an overhead message like "this container is empty". Right now you still have to click to close the window for empty containers.
If you want to see toxic check out what people wrote about this guys review of the game. Someone who actually worked on the original games.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197971038456/recommended/1086940/
(or maybe don't check it. I can't guarantee the comments won't have spoilers and some of them get pretty nasty over a review).
That's an interesting perspective to read. Folks should click and follow the link, even if they don't scroll to the comments.
However, I take a bunch of issues with his comparisons. I'll isolate one here, which has gotten alot of mileage on this forum: lack of NPC choice. I don't think the NPC choice early in BG1 or even BG2 is actually as great as he's remembering.
I don't think it's fair to include the EE companions in this comparison. Maybe when BG3 gets all its DLC or its own EE (like with OS) in a few years. So I'm going to compare to the base game.
An Early Access of BG1 probably might've been just enough to get you through the Nashkel mines. So I think that's a fair comparison point. What NPC's are generally available here, in a typical playthrough?
No good-aligned wizards for one. Xzar and Edwin. Dynaheir way far out of the way for a new, low-level party to get to safely imo. That seems beyond what we're getting in the EA here. Xan would be available only at the very tail end of this segment. Essentially not available for playing through the meat of the EA.
Your only cleric: Branwen. And acquired kind of late.
Your only druid: Jaheira.
Thieves: Montaron or Imoen.
Your only bard: Garrick -- and thus only non-evil arcane magic user.
Pretty good spread on the fighters: Khalid, Minsc, Kivan (maybe included), Kagain. No paladins though.
I know I'm excluding some higher level areas that veteran players know you can sneak into and snatch NPC's like Viconia or Ajantis from. But again, would those sections be fair to compare to this EA? I don't think so. Forgive me if I missed some here. Also this number has to be larger given the party size difference.
That is a big selection but keep in mind all these NPC's were made with little backstory, almost no personal quests among them, no bearing on the main plot. The problem in BG2 is actually imo quite comparable to what people are complaining about now in BG3 EA. Because both games focused on fewer but deeper NPC's. Want a good-aligned cleric, or an evil one? You have one option. Both of whom come off as arrogant and obnoxious on first joining imo. The thief NPC options for the full BG2 are notoriously limited in their breadth.
And further the review goes into favorably comparing PoE to BG on this point... which, seems flat out wrong to me. One NPC of every class, with several classes missing except in the DLC, is not great. Especially considering the combat prowess of certain classes in that game -- notably Cleric and Wizard. I will however agree with that reviewer that Kingmaker did a pretty good job on the NPC's.
Well I agree with the review, and basically what I have been saying since its announcement (even the joke Baldur's Gate: (Incoming) Illithid Invasion or BG:III). It's going to be a good game, but they shouldn't have called it BG3. The name carries expectations, and those expectations are going to be missed.
Onto the comments... yep, more people who just can't comprehend that Baldur's Gate uses D&D mechanics and is not D&D. And actually I also want to start the discussion of what real time with pause is. It's converting rounds to its real time equivalent of six seconds. Which I don't think people who harp on it realizes. It is AD&D mechanics as the mechanics are happening and a computer calculates all the rolls in the background. Characters move at the speed they do because that is how far they can travel in a round (or 6 seconds).
A couple of others complaining about design choices of a 20 year old game that actually modernized how crpgs are made and missing one of the reviewers biggest points that games should improve with time, not lie stagnant. Read 7 pages of the comments, I think I have more important things to do, like clean the mildew out of my shower. Others going to the well used 'boomer' insult as if it has meaning in an discussion...
Not really that toxic though. A few trolls... forums are much worse.
I expect more out of anything carrying the BG title, but I can't say I hate the game. I also can't say I love it either.
Ya no. You missed the point about companions and are comparing a game made over 20 years ago to a modern game which should be learning from its predecessors mistakes. I will also say that I believe the Gnoll Fortress is suppose to be done before the Mines and why Minsc is on a timer.
His gripe about the companions is that their attitudes and motivations are all similar. "I haven't played far enough to be fair, but initial impressions are there is a lot of anger and bossy people in this world, and not enough fun and adventure seeker'"
And this is a fair criticism. BG companions felt very distinctive. Jaheira was different from Khalid who was different from Imoen. Shadowheart/Astarion/Githlady have many of the same personality traits and don't feel very different from each other. You might as well throw Wyl in there too because for all of his good guy act I can never not see his actions as evil.
Yea I guess I thought it was worse than it was. Now that there are an extra 10 pages from when I last looked it may have helped to also cushion some of the worse comments too.
Ya, that's the impression I am getting from reading different people's opinion about them.
And here's the catch: I don't think this is something Larian can fix or at least willing to fix. These are already voiced canned AND motion captured characters. Redoing a couple of scenes to prevent this would be expensive. I do hope they add more vibrant and unique characters to the game, but each new character is going to take up X amount more drive space.
I haven't played it yet (and I attempt to stay away from actual video spoilers) but it at least allows me to lower my expectations when I do get around to playing it.
Ya, something like that can be dismissed out of hand. They really aren't adding to the discussion, just attempting to be something.
I didn't make the initial comparison. The author of the Steam post did. Also flat out absurd to say that the gnoll fortress is done before the mines, considering the relative monster levels.
No. You still missed his point. Here it is again:
Companions: So far there are 5 companions available, most likely one of which you will NEVER use, as party size is limited and you won't want to double up with your own protagonist's choice in class. I haven't played far enough to be fair, but initial impressions are there is a lot of anger and bossy people in this world, and not enough fun and adventure seeker's.
(Designer Mindset): Pathfinder: Kingmaker I feel did this wonderfully, as you had someone cheerful available near the start, along with someone barbaric, some morally questionable choices, some valorous choices and so on. So far it feels as though everyone is out for themselves, and it's a bit hard to like them a whole lot as a result.
He starts by saying you only have 4 slots, so for party dynamics, the player is probably not going to use the one in which the PC fills the role. He then goes on and says their personalities are all the same.
You then go on to list all the NPCs your party can recruit in a game made two decades ago, but that game actually made a conscious game design decision about party mechanics. They gave the player a full party by the time they hit FAI. A thief, a mage, a fighter, a healer, and a thief/tank. They also made sure that 2 pairs of those characters would hate each other and literally actually fight among themselves to inform the player, 'these aren't the companions you need to take with you on this journey.' You can find others. Those 4 companions had varying personalities in their shallowness.
Indications from some people who have played the game, such as the reviewer, the characters in BG3 are deeper, but they are all the similar bodies of water. There isn't enough variety to make it interesting. He did say he was early in the game, but these are the first impressions a person gets.
I think you're just focused on a separate part of the review than I am. This is the section that stuck with me:
When we went from Baldur's Gate to Baldur's Gate 2, there was an emphasis on growing and expanding on what we could to give the player more choices and freedom. Adding subclasses, focusing on player choices in quests and the story, their companions and so on. There's not near enough choice in companions so far for me to be able to tell them to go to hell if I don't like them.
As I said in my summary of the first BG game, a player wanting certain tactical pieces in their party doesn't actually have a lot of freedom to tell some of the Chapter1-Chapter2 NPC's to "go to hell". Or, if they do, they will pay a heavy price by not having some key role adequately fulfilled. Perfect example is not having access to a decent arcane spellcaster that's good or neutral.
And to rebut people who want to focus on BG2, I get that in this passage he's also talking about BG2, but in that game my fact is also true. There are some harder to find NPCs like Cernd, Valygar, Mazzy, even slightly Keldorn. But your initial options from Irenicus' dungeon, Aerie and the Copper Coronet also do not give a ton of freedom to tell NPC's to "go to hell" if you don't like them. And of course, you have to complete a whole two-level dungeon with absolutely no options on NPC's.
His summary of the personalities also doesn't seem to match what several professional reviewers and what several members of this community have written. That seems like both a subjective point and one where it's crazy premature to judge. Again I didn't think every point in that review was wrongheaded. But I do think it's maybe unfairly comparing complete knowledge about NPC options and their arcs in one set of games with what we have now. As opposed to trying to imagine what a limited EA of BG1 or 2 would look like.
FWIW, by my count, the possible companions in BG2 from Irenicus' dungeon, Waukeens Promenade and the Copper Coronet are 8, thus meaning 9 playable characters. Or a full party plus 50%. Five companions is also a full party plus 50% with a player created sixth character in BG3.
Sorry that you have to go through this. I don't talk for others, but my reaction to some criticism of BG3 (or Larian previous games) is not because that criticism is unpopular. It happens because I genuinely don't agree with certain parts, I like those games and I'm trying to make- at least someone- start maybe considering not everything about the games is doom and gloom. I had a DOS walkthrough thread to share things I like about those games. When there is a situation when - I'd say - at least half of active community is against something that is dear to me I try to provide an alternate point of view which might (but most often, though, it does achieve nothing) influence the views of still neutral readers, which might make them not 100% sure something is bad and unfun.
And it was naive of me to ever think this would somehow be different just because they slapped the D&D license onto it. Things like that don't really make much difference in the grand scheme, it's still the same designers and writers working on the thing and I think they're outright incompetent based on the design and writing of their last game.
That's kind of all I have to say on the matter, I have such a lack of interest in anything new being made all I've got are old games now, or games based around feeling like older games, but whatever, that's fine.