The problem isn't just not enough beds and ventilators/respirators. It's nurses and doctors working to exhaustion. It's large amounts of those same workers getting the virus themselves and having to be removed from the equation and pool of available bodies. It's cleaning the aforementioned breathing apparatuses so they can be used on someone else. I read today they ran out the valves needed for them, and a 3D printing company was able to come in and make them within hours. This is going to require speed and ingenuity.
In addition to the obvious medical workers, at this point, the biggest heroes in society are going to be, believe it or not, grocery store clerks and stockers. They are going to be the ones interacting with, by far, the most people even in a complete shutdown. Do them a favor and thank them the next time you're in line. Because they are probably on the receiving end of all sorts of bullshit at this point. How quickly what's viewed as an important job changes when the shit hits the fan. Garbage collectors as well will not be stopping, coming in contact with all sorts of shit from everyone's homes.
Here, the Governor of CT is sounding the alarm of what we're going to be seeing. And we are still a week away from when this REALLY gets bad. And it illustrates how our lack of testing is destroying our ability to fight the virus:
3 patients and 5 staff have tested positive at Memorial Sloan Kettering. This is a cancer hospital. My GF was there for a clinical trial 2 or 3 years ago. EVERYONE there is immuno-compromised. What's about to hit NY is not going to be good. If this virus is loose inside that hospital.......I don't even have the words.
Trump has been all about "keeping the numbers down" (because low numbers means he'll be re-elected in his mind). He's been playing nationalist xenophobic games like impotent travel restrictions and blaming others calling it the "foreign" virus. The WHO is a foreign group so of course he declined to use it. Also supposedly it can give "false positives" and we can't have that because then his numbers would go up. So he declined the WHO test like an asshole.
He's been more concerned about the numbers this whole time. He complained that WHO test gives false positives. We now know a bit more about the virus and that there are people who have it and don't have major symptoms but can still pass it on to others - those people are the "false positives". So it's not a false positive, it's someone who is infected but is asymptomatic. They have the virus and can pass it on, they just don't have the MAJOR symptoms. They can pass it on to others who will die.
But Trump didn't want high numbers so he declined the test. Rather than dealing with the reality that the virus is already running free in our borders he's been playing political games. This whole thing has been a tragic mess. By declining the WHO test and still not having tests widely available TODAY we have no idea how many infected people are out there.
Trump has been all about "keeping the numbers down" (because low numbers means he'll be re-elected in his mind). He's been playing nationalist xenophobic games like impotent travel restrictions and blaming others calling it the "foreign" virus. The WHO is a foreign group so of course he declined to use it. Also supposedly it can give "false positives" and we can't have that because then his numbers would go up. So he declined the WHO test like an asshole.
He's been more concerned about the numbers this whole time. He complained that WHO test gives false positives. We now know a bit more about the virus and that there are people who have it and don't have major symptoms but can still pass it on to others - those people are the "false positives". So it's not a false positive, it's someone who is infected but is asymptomatic. They have the virus and can pass it on, they just don't have the MAJOR symptoms. They can pass it on to others who will die.
But Trump didn't want high numbers so he declined the test. Rather than dealing with the reality that the virus is already running free in our borders he's been playing political games. This whole thing has been a tragic mess. By declining the WHO test and still not having tests widely available TODAY we have no idea how many infected people are out there.
My god, and I thought there cannot be anything worse that current Polish goverment. I stand corrected. Having said that, I must admit that our goverment is trying its best to contain the spread of coronavirus and it's one of the very few good things they have made during these 5 years with the resources they have at their disposal. It may seems all those preventive actions may seem to harsh for many, but I thing it's one of the reason we have less than 200 confirmed cases with 4 fatalities rather than thousands.
I still don't know what people don't understand about what happened in China, Iran, and is now happening in the major countries in Europe that we think we are immune to.
What I was trying to say is that for a lot of Americans, the pandemic may as well be a hyperobject. I would argue that the same was true of Italians prior to the quarantine.
Japan has also been following the “test as few as possible” strategy. It may well be a cold calculation that the virus cannot be restrained in crowded metropolitan areas without irreparable damage to the economy, or a myopic obsession with holding the Olympics. The excessively coldhearted would suggest that it’s an attempt to ‘correct’ the demographic curve. The hospitals aren’t full yet... but are getting busier.
I am generally okay with schools closing and working from home more even though the rebel in me thinks it is an overreaction.
...
I think we should just act a whole lot cleaner and considerate to others for a few months and we will be fine.
Not to call out a single poster, but this is representative of what I’ve seen a lot: “just work from home” and “just stay indoors for two months and then when you emerge, everything will be fine.”
That is pure fantasy. The vast majority of people don’t have jobs that allow working from home. Most people will not get paid while staying home to take care of kids. A LOT of people cannot take in stride a two-month hit to their finances. And a LOT of businesses cannot either. There are going to be long-term repercussions.
Not to mention, the goal here is to flatten the curve - i.e. slow down the rate of transmission. That means still expecting most people will in fact get infected. A policy geared toward containment is bad policy, because containment isn’t going to happen. Hard quarantine followed by “back to normal” won’t flatten the curve, it will just delay the spike. In 1918 there were multiple “aftershock outbreaks” because that’s what happens with all-or-nothing attempts at containment. Flattening the curve means managing transmission of the virus, not trying to prevent it.
Maybe I’m a pessimist, I just think this calls for a plan, not ad-hoc measures based on abstract fear.
If only there was some kind of leader who could come up with a plan and convince people to follow it...
It’s easier to treat 1000 people over 2 months than it is over 2 weeks. It’s what flattening the curve is attempting to do at this point.
Yeah I get that, thankyouverymuch. I don't think you actually read the post you quoted? I said:
Flattening the curve means managing transmission of the virus, not trying to prevent it.
Some of what I'm seeing proposed is not geared toward managing the rate of transmission, but toward containment - preventing transmission. As if it were still early February. But we've already been told containment isn't going to happen. I get that it's easier to treat 1000 people over 2 months than 2 weeks... I'm just not sure some of the people making policies understand that. Some policies seem aimed at treating 300 people instead of 1000 people. From what I understand, such a policy is doomed to failure, and should be reconsidered.
Like, I was thinking earlier... this would actually be a great time to get Covid-19. There is tons of awareness, tons of preparedness, but not many actual patients yet. I'm not about to go lick a toilet seat or anything. But man, I hope I don't get it 3 weeks from now.
But trying to prevent new infections *is* managing the rate of transmission right now, because it needs to be reduced if we are to cope. No one believes that we can eliminate the disease in this manner, it is all abou winning time. And given that the rate of infected rises exponentially even a small decrease in the rate will help a lot.
And at least here shutdown is not the only thing that is happening: there is emergency daycare for critical workers like healthcare, we are ordering new ventilators, canceling non-necessary operations all in service of having as much health care resources available as possible to deal with this. But those things take time, for example the order our government put in for ventilators is over a period of 1 year. And that's what makes it important to win some time right now.
Do you have any substantial ideas beyond that? Because I think there are a lot of very smart people working on it, and for once they are getting heard. Humanity was always better at dealing with imminent problems.
Detroit bus drivers are refusing to show up for work. This essentially shuts down mobility for anyone that doesn't have access to a vehicle. Scary for city folks who don't live close to grocery stores.
Detroit bus drivers are refusing to show up for work. This essentially shuts down mobility for anyone that doesn't have access to a vehicle. Scary for city folks who don't live close to grocery stores.
Here they have back door boarding only ( unless you are a senior, pregnant or with small kids) and the front of the bus is caution taped up.
Just like the grocery store, it’s a compromise in a way to keep service running while attempting to protect the most vulnerable as well as the bus driver.
At work today and the mall is empty. Most of the stores are on reduced hours (IMO to deal more with the loss sales of everyone staying self quarantined than reducing the spread) and some remaining closed (like understandably Purdy’s Chocolate which serves individual truffles).
Sit in restaurants are ordered closed, however, the food court here was/is still open. Still early but Subway and Tim Hortons were open, A&W about to. Crappy for bars on St. Patties day, but them the breaks.
Interesting. I would've thought 'under' 80. Pretty cutthroat in Italy I guess...
It's not about "being cutthroat".
Unfortunately, in a critical situation such as the current one, you have to make a choice. As you cannot save everyone, you put your efforts, energy, resources and staff on people you have the most and higher chances to save.
It sucks, it's horrible, especially because we have a very good Health System that takes care of everyone (literally), but we are in a dramatic situation where people who should stay in the Intensive Care Unit are just too much and there is not enough space AND the proper equipment (which is extremely expensive).
Doctors are doing their best and the rest of the country is trying to help in any possible way - for instance, a ferry company is working to turn a ship into a hospital (link here).
Everyone can say its piece of mind, but let's try to avoid harsh judgements or insensitive words.
Thank you and I wish the best to all of you
Interesting. I would've thought 'under' 80. Pretty cutthroat in Italy I guess...
It's not about "being cutthroat".
Unfortunately, in a critical situation such as the current one, you have to make a choice. As you cannot save everyone, you put your efforts, energy, resources and staff on people you have the most and higher chances to save.
It sucks, it's horrible, especially because we have a very good Health System that takes care of everyone (literally), but we are in a dramatic situation where people who should stay in the Intensive Care Unit are just too much and there is not enough space AND the proper equipment (which is extremely expensive).
Doctors are doing their best and the rest of the country is trying to help in any possible way - for instance, a ferry company is working to turn a ship into a hospital (link here).
Everyone can say its piece of mind, but let's try to avoid harsh judgements or insensitive words.
Thank you and I wish the best to all of you
My apologies, no offense intended. I was taken aback and just typed what I was thinking without much reflection. Won't happen again...
The COVID-19 Tracking Project is currently the most precise way to access state-by-state and total data of the spread of the virus. Keep in mind, these are only OFFICIAL positive test results. They in no way give us any sense of how many people are actually out there who have it becauseof lack of testing, but conservative estimates from experts say it's 5-10x these numbers. However, it does exhibit the undeniable trend of expoential growth, and why the end of the coming weekend is shaping up to be where numbers start to get out of hand. Keep in mind we didn't implement any widespread social distancing til the last 3 or 4 days, and this virus has an incubation period of 14 days and many people who are wholly asymptomatic who are carrying it. Also, not all states update on all days. This is the best possible official data we have:
@Aedan what part of Italy are you from? Just curious, pretty sure I remember you saying that you are from there before.
Wishing you guys all the best.
I live in Milan, Lombardy, which is the region where the virus spread the most
Also, I work as HR Business Partner in the e-grocery sector. In my company, we have been working SO HARD since the end of February, even during the weekend. We had a huge increase of demand ("huge" does not describe how much "huge" the demand is) and it is very difficult granting our high quality service in this situation.
Still, Italians never give up and want to keep the morale high. Enjoy this video
Pretty much right when I was posting, Ontario Premier Doug Ford declared a state of emergency and ordered places to close for at least 2 weeks or till March 31. Businesses are getting government assistance to pay their employees their regular hourly wages during these two weeks, which of course, was a lot of people's concerns. It's still a 'will see' after those 2 weeks if workers will still be getting paid. My company said PT might have to apply for EI.
Things like grocery stores and pharmacies will remain open. I will take the 2 weeks rest.
Finally has arrived in our city. I've spoken to people who know more about what is going on at work than me, plans definitely seem to be in place for letting those who can work from home do so, I'm hoping sooner than later.
Ramping up to Level 2 quarantine for my company. Might have to have my temperature taken to be allowed on site tomorrow depending on how long it takes them to implement this. Business critical or external customer work only after the quarantine is official. Yay, busy work on the computer with limited vpn's. Can't wait...
Interesting. I would've thought 'under' 80. Pretty cutthroat in Italy I guess...
It's not about "being cutthroat".
Unfortunately, in a critical situation such as the current one, you have to make a choice. As you cannot save everyone, you put your efforts, energy, resources and staff on people you have the most and higher chances to save.
It sucks, it's horrible, especially because we have a very good Health System that takes care of everyone (literally), but we are in a dramatic situation where people who should stay in the Intensive Care Unit are just too much and there is not enough space AND the proper equipment (which is extremely expensive).
Doctors are doing their best and the rest of the country is trying to help in any possible way - for instance, a ferry company is working to turn a ship into a hospital (link here).
Everyone can say its piece of mind, but let's try to avoid harsh judgements or insensitive words.
Thank you and I wish the best to all of you
Yeah, I very very much symphatize with you guys and I'm really sorry this virus hit you especially hard. I read somewhere that Italian health care is considered second best in the world, so I can't imagine how hard must have been for you if you didn't have it on such high level of quality. It's good that you don't loose your spirit - I saw a video of people singing on balconies of their homes trying to not loose their minds.
Poland is hitting harder and harder. 238 cases as of now with 5 fatalities
Pfff. Attention seeker website.
Toilet paper comes in a bag of 32 or 40 rolls. Having 18 is hardly a hoard...
I have a count of 46, having bought a bag of 40 since I do shopping once per week and 6 will not get the family to next week. Does that make me a hoarder?
What annoys me more is that all the baking flour and yeast are sold out. Like everybody knows how to bake bread all of a sudden. Now I cannot use flour for basic needs.
Pfff. Attention seeker website.
Toilet paper comes in a bag of 32 or 40 rolls. Having 18 is hardly a hoard...
I have a count of 46, having bought a bag of 40 since I do shopping once per week and 6 will not get the family to next week. Does that make me a hoarder?
What annoys me more is that all the baking flour and yeast are sold out. Like everybody knows how to bake bread all of a sudden. Now I cannot use flour for basic needs.
I do know how to make soup though so I stocked up on boullion cubes. Egg noodles don't seem to sell out either. Got celery, carrots and onions too. Bring on the zombies!
Edit: You still have time to grab some arrowroot and corn starch too before everybody else figures this out...
We've both got sore throats (not strep, just regular viral no covid symptoms) and we're wearing masks.
My wife's Thai friend came in and started speaking to my wife. This middle aged Karen sitting nearby jumped up immediately and ran away. It was hilarious and kinda sad.
Yeah, there's a slight of "racism" building hereabouts. Not really racism but maybe the better description is large concerns when Asian and Italian people are nearby.
Yeah, there's a slight of "racism" building hereabouts. Not really racism but maybe the better description is large concerns when Asian and Italian people are nearby.
Yeah, there's a slight of "racism" building hereabouts. Not really racism but maybe the better description is large concerns when Asian and Italian people are nearby.
Very sad.
No, that's definitely racism.
Or maybe it's just pointless fear, since most people can't tell Chinese, from Vietnamness, from tiwanese, from Japanese, from Korean.
The same way most people can't tell a black American from a hatian, from a Nigerian, from a yoruban, from a Akan, from a Igbo.
Just like some people can't tell... A British person from a Scottish, from a German, from a French.
Thing is,when you're not exposed yo these seperations enough, it isn't easy to tell difference.
Especially with older generations who are more use to homogeneous groups and interactions.
Comments
In addition to the obvious medical workers, at this point, the biggest heroes in society are going to be, believe it or not, grocery store clerks and stockers. They are going to be the ones interacting with, by far, the most people even in a complete shutdown. Do them a favor and thank them the next time you're in line. Because they are probably on the receiving end of all sorts of bullshit at this point. How quickly what's viewed as an important job changes when the shit hits the fan. Garbage collectors as well will not be stopping, coming in contact with all sorts of shit from everyone's homes.
Here, the Governor of CT is sounding the alarm of what we're going to be seeing. And we are still a week away from when this REALLY gets bad. And it illustrates how our lack of testing is destroying our ability to fight the virus:
As for WHY that testing is so far behind?? Well, here you go. And it's not good:
Trump has been all about "keeping the numbers down" (because low numbers means he'll be re-elected in his mind). He's been playing nationalist xenophobic games like impotent travel restrictions and blaming others calling it the "foreign" virus. The WHO is a foreign group so of course he declined to use it. Also supposedly it can give "false positives" and we can't have that because then his numbers would go up. So he declined the WHO test like an asshole.
He's been more concerned about the numbers this whole time. He complained that WHO test gives false positives. We now know a bit more about the virus and that there are people who have it and don't have major symptoms but can still pass it on to others - those people are the "false positives". So it's not a false positive, it's someone who is infected but is asymptomatic. They have the virus and can pass it on, they just don't have the MAJOR symptoms. They can pass it on to others who will die.
But Trump didn't want high numbers so he declined the test. Rather than dealing with the reality that the virus is already running free in our borders he's been playing political games. This whole thing has been a tragic mess. By declining the WHO test and still not having tests widely available TODAY we have no idea how many infected people are out there.
My god, and I thought there cannot be anything worse that current Polish goverment. I stand corrected. Having said that, I must admit that our goverment is trying its best to contain the spread of coronavirus and it's one of the very few good things they have made during these 5 years with the resources they have at their disposal. It may seems all those preventive actions may seem to harsh for many, but I thing it's one of the reason we have less than 200 confirmed cases with 4 fatalities rather than thousands.
What I was trying to say is that for a lot of Americans, the pandemic may as well be a hyperobject. I would argue that the same was true of Italians prior to the quarantine.
But trying to prevent new infections *is* managing the rate of transmission right now, because it needs to be reduced if we are to cope. No one believes that we can eliminate the disease in this manner, it is all abou winning time. And given that the rate of infected rises exponentially even a small decrease in the rate will help a lot.
And at least here shutdown is not the only thing that is happening: there is emergency daycare for critical workers like healthcare, we are ordering new ventilators, canceling non-necessary operations all in service of having as much health care resources available as possible to deal with this. But those things take time, for example the order our government put in for ventilators is over a period of 1 year. And that's what makes it important to win some time right now.
Do you have any substantial ideas beyond that? Because I think there are a lot of very smart people working on it, and for once they are getting heard. Humanity was always better at dealing with imminent problems.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/only-10-percent-of-ddot-buses-on-the-road-amid-pandemic-concerns
Wow.
Here they have back door boarding only ( unless you are a senior, pregnant or with small kids) and the front of the bus is caution taped up.
Just like the grocery store, it’s a compromise in a way to keep service running while attempting to protect the most vulnerable as well as the bus driver.
At work today and the mall is empty. Most of the stores are on reduced hours (IMO to deal more with the loss sales of everyone staying self quarantined than reducing the spread) and some remaining closed (like understandably Purdy’s Chocolate which serves individual truffles).
Sit in restaurants are ordered closed, however, the food court here was/is still open. Still early but Subway and Tim Hortons were open, A&W about to. Crappy for bars on St. Patties day, but them the breaks.
That’s with a count of only 13 (known cases).
More here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/covid19-coronavirus-ottawa-symptoms-information-march-17-1.5499890
It's not about "being cutthroat".
Unfortunately, in a critical situation such as the current one, you have to make a choice. As you cannot save everyone, you put your efforts, energy, resources and staff on people you have the most and higher chances to save.
It sucks, it's horrible, especially because we have a very good Health System that takes care of everyone (literally), but we are in a dramatic situation where people who should stay in the Intensive Care Unit are just too much and there is not enough space AND the proper equipment (which is extremely expensive).
Doctors are doing their best and the rest of the country is trying to help in any possible way - for instance, a ferry company is working to turn a ship into a hospital (link here).
Everyone can say its piece of mind, but let's try to avoid harsh judgements or insensitive words.
Thank you and I wish the best to all of you
My apologies, no offense intended. I was taken aback and just typed what I was thinking without much reflection. Won't happen again...
It's okay, thank you, my friend
Wishing you guys all the best.
03/04- 118
03/05- 176 (+58)
03/06- 223 (+47)
03/07- 341 (+118)
03/08- 417 (+76)
03/09- 584 (+167)
03/10- 778 (+194)
03/11- 1053 (+275)
03/12- 1315 (+262)
03/13- 1922 (+607)
03/14- 2450 (+528)
03/15- 3173 (+723)
03/16- 4019 (+846)
03/17- 5320 (+1301)
I live in Milan, Lombardy, which is the region where the virus spread the most
Also, I work as HR Business Partner in the e-grocery sector. In my company, we have been working SO HARD since the end of February, even during the weekend. We had a huge increase of demand ("huge" does not describe how much "huge" the demand is) and it is very difficult granting our high quality service in this situation.
Still, Italians never give up and want to keep the morale high. Enjoy this video
We will win!
Pretty much right when I was posting, Ontario Premier Doug Ford declared a state of emergency and ordered places to close for at least 2 weeks or till March 31. Businesses are getting government assistance to pay their employees their regular hourly wages during these two weeks, which of course, was a lot of people's concerns. It's still a 'will see' after those 2 weeks if workers will still be getting paid. My company said PT might have to apply for EI.
Things like grocery stores and pharmacies will remain open. I will take the 2 weeks rest.
Yeah, I very very much symphatize with you guys and I'm really sorry this virus hit you especially hard. I read somewhere that Italian health care is considered second best in the world, so I can't imagine how hard must have been for you if you didn't have it on such high level of quality. It's good that you don't loose your spirit - I saw a video of people singing on balconies of their homes trying to not loose their minds.
Poland is hitting harder and harder. 238 cases as of now with 5 fatalities
TR
Toilet paper comes in a bag of 32 or 40 rolls. Having 18 is hardly a hoard...
I have a count of 46, having bought a bag of 40 since I do shopping once per week and 6 will not get the family to next week. Does that make me a hoarder?
What annoys me more is that all the baking flour and yeast are sold out. Like everybody knows how to bake bread all of a sudden. Now I cannot use flour for basic needs.
I do know how to make soup though so I stocked up on boullion cubes. Egg noodles don't seem to sell out either. Got celery, carrots and onions too. Bring on the zombies!
Edit: You still have time to grab some arrowroot and corn starch too before everybody else figures this out...
18 rolls isn't that many for a family. It's not instant karma when a family can only get 18 rolls and they all get wasted.
We've both got sore throats (not strep, just regular viral no covid symptoms) and we're wearing masks.
My wife's Thai friend came in and started speaking to my wife. This middle aged Karen sitting nearby jumped up immediately and ran away. It was hilarious and kinda sad.
Very sad.
No, that's definitely racism.
The same way most people can't tell a black American from a hatian, from a Nigerian, from a yoruban, from a Akan, from a Igbo.
Just like some people can't tell... A British person from a Scottish, from a German, from a French.
Thing is,when you're not exposed yo these seperations enough, it isn't easy to tell difference.
Especially with older generations who are more use to homogeneous groups and interactions.
Not every negative action is one of racism.