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Unpopular opinions

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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn would be a better and more fulfilling game if Imoen had died at Spellhold as originally intended. Such things really do make playing a game that much more engaging and emotional. And no... the whole Yoshimo betrayal thing was more of a comedy than actual drama stuff.

    Bounty Hunter: "Hello you, I'm your friend!"
    Bounty Hunter Take 2: "Hah! You're just a contract I took to make money!"
    Me: Uh huh.. hadn't seen that coming...

    On a similar note: dead NPC's should stay dead... forever. Begone, resurrection and raise dead. And you stay in your grave as well, Sarevok! At least have the decency and come back as a death knight or something!

    /rant

    Zaghoullolien
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    this is why i like playing bg 2 with the yoshimo banter mods. they flesh out his character and make you like him so the betrayal actual effects you.

    RaduzielThacoBellAerakarStummvonBordwehr
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,280
    I like SoD , but since this is the unpopular opinions thread here goes another one : Who the heck wrote the priestess of bhaal dialogue???
    After getting the key to her jail you have three options :
    (a) leave her there to rot ,which is obviously a neutral to evil act
    (b) open her cage and tell her to go on a murder rampage (even though shes old and blind)
    (c) tell her to be nice others, and she blindly (no pun intended) accepts it !

    Option C is lawful stupid at its core , and there's no option to simply kill her (more humane than locking her up forever).

    ThacoBellRaduzielBalrog99
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    I'm kind of souring on SOD's contribution to the saga, not because of plot holes, exactly, but because I don't think you necessarily add to a mythos simply by providing more information. Sometimes, when you mean to add, you simply take away from what was already there. Seeing Sarevok again in Hell feels that little bit cheaper in light of the SOD vision telling me that the cycle between us will never end. Having Irenicus lurk around every corner for an entire game before kidnapping Gorion's Ward dulls the shock and suddenness of it. He seems to be using the exact same disguise throughout SOD that he does when you enter Spellhold through the front door, which makes the PC look stupid for not recognizing him.

    And that inability to connect back to SOD in SOA speaks to the biggest problem of all. The connective tissue all goes one way with this interquel. You can foreshadow later events, but there's nothing in the later games that references stuff from SOD, unless there's Dorn/Neera/Rasaad material that I don't know about because I haven't used those characters in a long while and never liked Neera to begin with. You'd think Volo in Saradush, at least, would have something to say about how you saved the Sword Coast from devils, but nope. So the result feels like a skin graft; it just doesn't quite fit because the connectivity is unidirectional.

    bob_vengArtonaWarChiefZeke
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    i feel people that complain about sod and tob being linear should never play the iwd games. if anything tob takes alot from that series from a structure stand point.

    sod also seem inspired by the iwd games. alot of the enemy sprites are from those games and the plot is very similar to iwd 2.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    I think Icewind Dale made up for its linearity with its worldbuilding, but also, it wasn't a sequel to less linear games. TOB doesn't just feel straightforward, it feels small, claustrophobic, even. And it's such a weird thing to say about your biggest adventure yet that it's largely confined to a city the size of Waukeen's Promenade, an oasis village, and a few dungeons.

    Raduzielmegamike15
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,245
    edited March 2019
    SoD only allowed three dialogue trees which are pretty much always used by the devs. So every encounter I get to see three options of which one is often over the top / out of character... Sigh.

    The hooded man makes no sense to me and I didn't understand the plot in my first playthrough until I sort of got an idea at the final chapter. Now I am doing it again just to understand what the hell I played through.... And I STILL don't understand in the early chapters.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    lroumen wrote: »
    SoD only allowed three dialogue trees which are pretty much always used by the devs. So every encounter I get to see three options of which one is often over the top / out of character... Sigh.

    The hooded man makes no sense to me and I didn't understand the plot in my first playthrough until I sort of got an idea at the final chapter. Now I am doing it again just to understand what the hell I played through.... And I STILL don't understand in the early chapters.
    the hooded man is testing you to see if you are worthy of him. if you played bg 2 you know why he wants you

    and the plot is not that hard to understand. there are three plots going on. calar's crusade. the hooded man attempt to find a suitable soul. and Belhifet attempting to return after his defeat in iwd 1.

    charname is thrown into all three because their blood is needed to open the portal to Avernus so Belhifet can return to the material plane, the assassins were assumed to be from calar, and of course out good friend jon wants either yours or calar's soul.

    so you go with the army of baldurs gate, daggerford and watedeep to take out the crusade before they cause anymore damge.

    as calar is either dead or stuck in hell the hooded man just goes with taking your soul. so he frames you by killing skie and your left defenseless for the kidnapping that leads into bg2.


    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehrSkatan
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    Ammar wrote: »
    Looking at the original games, I felt that they represented a fairly typical progression for P&P roleplaying.

    BG 1: inexperienced party, finds suitable adventures just by wandering around (the random encounter table is almost good enough). So we have a focus on exploring the countryside, with many areas and minor sidequests.
    BG 2: experienced party, will find no challenges by wandering around randomly. So we get 8 appropriately challenging quests taking you to specific places, each of which would have made a fine AD&D module.
    ToB: epic party, challenges are hard to find, so CHARNAME finds himself moved inexorably towards his destiny -> final epic but linear story line.

    I think the structure of each game was particularly well-suited to the experience levels of the party in that game.

    SoD stands out a bit, by offering only a bit more freedom than ToB at a lower level than SoA. But I can accept that given its function as a bridge between the games.

    well you only gain at most 2 to 3 levels in sod so it's not that big of a power jump.

    StummvonBordwehrAmmar
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Ammar wrote: »
    ToB: epic party, challenges are hard to find, so CHARNAME finds himself moved inexorably towards his destiny -> final epic but linear story line.

    I didn't play old school D&D, but from what I know about it, this isn't the logical progression you'd expect. Actually, SOA with its strongholds gives a better impression of what high-level play was like in the old days - when your characters get powerful enough, they adventure less and start to settle down and lead and guide other people instead. Bentley Mirrorshade setting up an inn in a dungeon he'd cleared out is another typical example of this. TOB severs you from your strongholds and replaces them with an introspective proving ground, which seems more like Planescape: Torment than traditional D&D.

    WarChiefZeke
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    tob in general feels rushed. this was right before black isle shut down so it may have made sense why this and iwd 2 had a limted dev time.

    that being said there are moments of tob i do like and it does feel like a nice ending to the series.

    AerakarZaghoulThacoBell
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,740
    The worst thing about Throne of Bhaal is that there isn't a single sitting animation for CHARNAME. What point is there in a throne if one can't actually *sit* on said furniture?! Bah!

    I guess you could give your CHARNAME a sitting commoner sprite...

    lolien
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,623
    edited March 2019
    Abi_Dalzim wrote: »
    Ammar wrote: »
    ToB: epic party, challenges are hard to find, so CHARNAME finds himself moved inexorably towards his destiny -> final epic but linear story line.

    I didn't play old school D&D, but from what I know about it, this isn't the logical progression you'd expect. Actually, SOA with its strongholds gives a better impression of what high-level play was like in the old days - when your characters get powerful enough, they adventure less and start to settle down and lead and guide other people instead. Bentley Mirrorshade setting up an inn in a dungeon he'd cleared out is another typical example of this. TOB severs you from your strongholds and replaces them with an introspective proving ground, which seems more like Planescape: Torment than traditional D&D.

    BG1 and BG2 definitely have the same feel as PnP in terms of how your adventures change as you progress. You're basically just wandering around doing small quests or random encounters to start with and by the time you've gotten several levels under your belt you begin to have more influence in the world and in your chosen profession, adventures become more focused and less free flowing. They even tried the best they could with the strongholds, something just about every class would have by that level in normal PnP rules.

    Everyone's epic levels are different so that works too. Druids wouldn't even be on this plane by that point.

    AmmarThacoBellAerakar
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    i always saw the pocket plane as your personal stronghold. so they did not take your stronghold away they just gave you a new one as your in a new region.

    ThacoBellZaghoulDJKajuru
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    But what about weakholds for low level characters? :p

    lroumenWarChiefZekeJoenSoSkatan
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,245
    megamike15 wrote: »
    the hooded man is testing you to see if you are worthy of him. if you played bg 2 you know why he wants you

    and the plot is not that hard to understand. there are three plots going on. calar's crusade. the hooded man attempt to find a suitable soul. and Belhifet attempting to return after his defeat in iwd 1.

    charname is thrown into all three because their blood is needed to open the portal to Avernus so Belhifet can return to the material plane, the assassins were assumed to be from calar, and of course out good friend jon wants either yours or calar's soul.

    so you go with the army of baldurs gate, daggerford and watedeep to take out the crusade before they cause anymore damge.

    as calar is either dead or stuck in hell the hooded man just goes with taking your soul. so he frames you by killing skie and your left defenseless for the kidnapping that leads into bg2.
    Do we still need to spoiler tag, btw?
    I understand those things but only at the final chapter, not early game.

    What the purpose is to the crusade is not clear to me early game. Why do people follow it and what do they hope to get out? What is so great or horrible to start a crusade for?

    The hooded man is worse. He only talks a bit. That's it. Nothing more. He is just randomly around. Testing? When? How? If they condensed him at the final chapter it would have been enough to close the gap to SoA for me. I don't get the fascination with hoody.

    Hephernaan, kind of random but okay. Skies fate, sure. Belhifet, that's fine.

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,159
    lroumen wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    the hooded man is testing you to see if you are worthy of him. if you played bg 2 you know why he wants you

    and the plot is not that hard to understand. there are three plots going on. calar's crusade. the hooded man attempt to find a suitable soul. and Belhifet attempting to return after his defeat in iwd 1.

    charname is thrown into all three because their blood is needed to open the portal to Avernus so Belhifet can return to the material plane, the assassins were assumed to be from calar, and of course out good friend jon wants either yours or calar's soul.

    so you go with the army of baldurs gate, daggerford and watedeep to take out the crusade before they cause anymore damge.

    as calar is either dead or stuck in hell the hooded man just goes with taking your soul. so he frames you by killing skie and your left defenseless for the kidnapping that leads into bg2.
    Do we still need to spoiler tag, btw?
    I understand those things but only at the final chapter, not early game.

    What the purpose is to the crusade is not clear to me early game. Why do people follow it and what do they hope to get out? What is so great or horrible to start a crusade for?

    The hooded man is worse. He only talks a bit. That's it. Nothing more. He is just randomly around. Testing? When? How? If they condensed him at the final chapter it would have been enough to close the gap to SoA for me. I don't get the fascination with hoody.

    Hephernaan, kind of random but okay. Skies fate, sure. Belhifet, that's fine.
    The purpose of the Crusade is pretty simple. The portal to Avernus was opened in the past, leading to an invasion. Prior to being stopped many people were lost to the Baatezu - lost in the sense, that they were dragged into hell. Caelar promised their families to get those lost souls out. Officially the Crusade is a high-stake rescue mission. This is very close to Caelar's real purpose, only that she is focussed only on her uncle (who ended up in Avernus for other reasons), instead of the rest of the lost. As a justification it is pretty powerful, because even the death of innocents pales in comparison to the loss of souls.

    I mostly agree about the Hooded Man, he was overused. And the entire murder of Skie scheme was needlessly complicated; he should have had the power to abduct CHARNAME without the rest of the complicated steps. At least the jail break was not necessary. The initial observation seems to be motivated by the Hooded Man not yet having deciding whether to abduct CHARNAME or Argent. Both have a divine heritage, and he wants to steal the more powerful of the two. Potentially Belhifet was dangerous enough to also be a threat to the Hooded Man, but that is more speculative.

    semiticgoddess
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    @lroumen
    The Crusade's purpose is supposed to be a mystery until towrads the end. Its the big inciting mystery: There's a Paladin leading a crusade that is killing innocent people, this doesn't make any sense, go find out why and/or stop it. As for the hooded man, he is just there for some fanservice foreshadowing, not a major plot development.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    edited March 2019
    lroumen wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    the hooded man is testing you to see if you are worthy of him. if you played bg 2 you know why he wants you

    and the plot is not that hard to understand. there are three plots going on. calar's crusade. the hooded man attempt to find a suitable soul. and Belhifet attempting to return after his defeat in iwd 1.

    charname is thrown into all three because their blood is needed to open the portal to Avernus so Belhifet can return to the material plane, the assassins were assumed to be from calar, and of course out good friend jon wants either yours or calar's soul.

    so you go with the army of baldurs gate, daggerford and watedeep to take out the crusade before they cause anymore damge.

    as calar is either dead or stuck in hell the hooded man just goes with taking your soul. so he frames you by killing skie and your left defenseless for the kidnapping that leads into bg2.
    Do we still need to spoiler tag, btw?
    I understand those things but only at the final chapter, not early game.

    What the purpose is to the crusade is not clear to me early game. Why do people follow it and what do they hope to get out? What is so great or horrible to start a crusade for?

    The hooded man is worse. He only talks a bit. That's it. Nothing more. He is just randomly around. Testing? When? How? If they condensed him at the final chapter it would have been enough to close the gap to SoA for me. I don't get the fascination with hoody.

    Hephernaan, kind of random but okay. Skies fate, sure. Belhifet, that's fine.

    i was debating the spoiler tag in my head and just did it just to be safe.
    did you do the dreams at all. those are the tests the hoodedman is talking about. it does cause a plot hole tho as for some reason jon can now enter your dreams and manipulate them when he could not do that in bg 2.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    Ammar wrote: »
    lroumen wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    the hooded man is testing you to see if you are worthy of him. if you played bg 2 you know why he wants you

    and the plot is not that hard to understand. there are three plots going on. calar's crusade. the hooded man attempt to find a suitable soul. and Belhifet attempting to return after his defeat in iwd 1.

    charname is thrown into all three because their blood is needed to open the portal to Avernus so Belhifet can return to the material plane, the assassins were assumed to be from calar, and of course out good friend jon wants either yours or calar's soul.

    so you go with the army of baldurs gate, daggerford and watedeep to take out the crusade before they cause anymore damge.

    as calar is either dead or stuck in hell the hooded man just goes with taking your soul. so he frames you by killing skie and your left defenseless for the kidnapping that leads into bg2.
    Do we still need to spoiler tag, btw?
    I understand those things but only at the final chapter, not early game.

    What the purpose is to the crusade is not clear to me early game. Why do people follow it and what do they hope to get out? What is so great or horrible to start a crusade for?

    The hooded man is worse. He only talks a bit. That's it. Nothing more. He is just randomly around. Testing? When? How? If they condensed him at the final chapter it would have been enough to close the gap to SoA for me. I don't get the fascination with hoody.

    Hephernaan, kind of random but okay. Skies fate, sure. Belhifet, that's fine.
    The purpose of the Crusade is pretty simple. The portal to Avernus was opened in the past, leading to an invasion. Prior to being stopped many people were lost to the Baatezu - lost in the sense, that they were dragged into hell. Caelar promised their families to get those lost souls out. Officially the Crusade is a high-stake rescue mission. This is very close to Caelar's real purpose, only that she is focussed only on her uncle (who ended up in Avernus for other reasons), instead of the rest of the lost. As a justification it is pretty powerful, because even the death of innocents pales in comparison to the loss of souls.

    I mostly agree about the Hooded Man, he was overused. And the entire murder of Skie scheme was needlessly complicated; he should have had the power to abduct CHARNAME without the rest of the complicated steps. At least the jail break was not necessary. The initial observation seems to be motivated by the Hooded Man not yet having deciding whether to abduct CHARNAME or Argent. Both have a divine heritage, and he wants to steal the more powerful of the two. Potentially Belhifet was dangerous enough to also be a threat to the Hooded Man, but that is more speculative.
    the hooded man does not see Belhifet as a threat. if you do the dwarf side quest he treats Hephernaan and his master with contempt and as beneath him.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,159
    megamike15 wrote: »
    Ammar wrote: »
    lroumen wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    the hooded man is testing you to see if you are worthy of him. if you played bg 2 you know why he wants you

    and the plot is not that hard to understand. there are three plots going on. calar's crusade. the hooded man attempt to find a suitable soul. and Belhifet attempting to return after his defeat in iwd 1.

    charname is thrown into all three because their blood is needed to open the portal to Avernus so Belhifet can return to the material plane, the assassins were assumed to be from calar, and of course out good friend jon wants either yours or calar's soul.

    so you go with the army of baldurs gate, daggerford and watedeep to take out the crusade before they cause anymore damge.

    as calar is either dead or stuck in hell the hooded man just goes with taking your soul. so he frames you by killing skie and your left defenseless for the kidnapping that leads into bg2.
    Do we still need to spoiler tag, btw?
    I understand those things but only at the final chapter, not early game.

    What the purpose is to the crusade is not clear to me early game. Why do people follow it and what do they hope to get out? What is so great or horrible to start a crusade for?

    The hooded man is worse. He only talks a bit. That's it. Nothing more. He is just randomly around. Testing? When? How? If they condensed him at the final chapter it would have been enough to close the gap to SoA for me. I don't get the fascination with hoody.

    Hephernaan, kind of random but okay. Skies fate, sure. Belhifet, that's fine.
    The purpose of the Crusade is pretty simple. The portal to Avernus was opened in the past, leading to an invasion. Prior to being stopped many people were lost to the Baatezu - lost in the sense, that they were dragged into hell. Caelar promised their families to get those lost souls out. Officially the Crusade is a high-stake rescue mission. This is very close to Caelar's real purpose, only that she is focussed only on her uncle (who ended up in Avernus for other reasons), instead of the rest of the lost. As a justification it is pretty powerful, because even the death of innocents pales in comparison to the loss of souls.

    I mostly agree about the Hooded Man, he was overused. And the entire murder of Skie scheme was needlessly complicated; he should have had the power to abduct CHARNAME without the rest of the complicated steps. At least the jail break was not necessary. The initial observation seems to be motivated by the Hooded Man not yet having deciding whether to abduct CHARNAME or Argent. Both have a divine heritage, and he wants to steal the more powerful of the two. Potentially Belhifet was dangerous enough to also be a threat to the Hooded Man, but that is more speculative.
    the hooded man does not see Belhifet as a threat. if you do the dwarf side quest he treats Hephernaan and his master with contempt and as beneath him.
    Also still speculation. First off, Hephernaan whom he interacts with is only a goon. And Irenicus is hardly the sort to show anything but contempt, even in the face of a real threat. I.e. when he temporarily surrendered to the Cowled Wizards, he still treated them with contempts, though at least in Athkatla they could have eventually overcome him by sheer weight of numbers.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    megamike15 wrote: »
    lroumen wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    the hooded man is testing you to see if you are worthy of him. if you played bg 2 you know why he wants you

    and the plot is not that hard to understand. there are three plots going on. calar's crusade. the hooded man attempt to find a suitable soul. and Belhifet attempting to return after his defeat in iwd 1.

    charname is thrown into all three because their blood is needed to open the portal to Avernus so Belhifet can return to the material plane, the assassins were assumed to be from calar, and of course out good friend jon wants either yours or calar's soul.

    so you go with the army of baldurs gate, daggerford and watedeep to take out the crusade before they cause anymore damge.

    as calar is either dead or stuck in hell the hooded man just goes with taking your soul. so he frames you by killing skie and your left defenseless for the kidnapping that leads into bg2.
    Do we still need to spoiler tag, btw?
    I understand those things but only at the final chapter, not early game.

    What the purpose is to the crusade is not clear to me early game. Why do people follow it and what do they hope to get out? What is so great or horrible to start a crusade for?

    The hooded man is worse. He only talks a bit. That's it. Nothing more. He is just randomly around. Testing? When? How? If they condensed him at the final chapter it would have been enough to close the gap to SoA for me. I don't get the fascination with hoody.

    Hephernaan, kind of random but okay. Skies fate, sure. Belhifet, that's fine.

    i was debating the spoiler tag in my head and just did it just to be safe.
    did you do the dreams at all. those are the tests the hoodedman is talking about. it does cause a plot hole tho as for some reason jon can now enter your dreams and manipulate them when he could not do that in bg 2.
    Not necessarily a plot hole. The hooded man never comments on your dreams, and its never stated that he is actually interfereing. It could simply be another case of the Bhaal taint manifesting as him, like in BG2.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,780
    Jon-bon did have the power to enter your dreams in BG2. The first three dream sequences were all about him offering you power, trying to get you prepped for when he kidnapped you at Spellhold. There's actually a PnP spell called Nightmare that allows you to do just that.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,598
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    lroumen wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    the hooded man is testing you to see if you are worthy of him. if you played bg 2 you know why he wants you

    and the plot is not that hard to understand. there are three plots going on. calar's crusade. the hooded man attempt to find a suitable soul. and Belhifet attempting to return after his defeat in iwd 1.

    charname is thrown into all three because their blood is needed to open the portal to Avernus so Belhifet can return to the material plane, the assassins were assumed to be from calar, and of course out good friend jon wants either yours or calar's soul.

    so you go with the army of baldurs gate, daggerford and watedeep to take out the crusade before they cause anymore damge.

    as calar is either dead or stuck in hell the hooded man just goes with taking your soul. so he frames you by killing skie and your left defenseless for the kidnapping that leads into bg2.
    Do we still need to spoiler tag, btw?
    I understand those things but only at the final chapter, not early game.

    What the purpose is to the crusade is not clear to me early game. Why do people follow it and what do they hope to get out? What is so great or horrible to start a crusade for?

    The hooded man is worse. He only talks a bit. That's it. Nothing more. He is just randomly around. Testing? When? How? If they condensed him at the final chapter it would have been enough to close the gap to SoA for me. I don't get the fascination with hoody.

    Hephernaan, kind of random but okay. Skies fate, sure. Belhifet, that's fine.

    i was debating the spoiler tag in my head and just did it just to be safe.
    did you do the dreams at all. those are the tests the hoodedman is talking about. it does cause a plot hole tho as for some reason jon can now enter your dreams and manipulate them when he could not do that in bg 2.
    Not necessarily a plot hole. The hooded man never comments on your dreams, and its never stated that he is actually interfereing. It could simply be another case of the Bhaal taint manifesting as him, like in BG2.
    i thought so to but he seems to implie that he is actually going into your dreams in sod during your last talk with him when he shows you how he killed skie.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Jon-bon did have the power to enter your dreams in BG2. The first three dream sequences were all about him offering you power, trying to get you prepped for when he kidnapped you at Spellhold. There's actually a PnP spell called Nightmare that allows you to do just that.
    I seem to recall a dialogue option calling him out on invading your dreams. Irenicius says he has no idea what you are talking about.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,780
    @ThacoBell: I think that just referred to the Spellhold dream, which was a side effect of the soul-stealing process. It's worth noting that Irenicus doesn't show up in that dream, where he was the central figure in the previous ones.

    lolien
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,623
    Not only could Jon enter dreams per PnP rules, there's a good chance he could even try to bond with the Tree of Life as he did per PnP rules. A few times he appears to demonstrate the ability to cast rituals beyond the normal range of spells, a feat usually associated with Elven High Magic which allows almost anything by a sufficiently powerful individual. The outline for Elven High Magic first appeared in 1998, 2 years before BG2's release. Not saying they were inspired by any source books, but it works with them.

    Maybe this would've fit better in the "Did You Know?" section

    DJKajuruAerakarSkatanlolien
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