To counter any drama in these threads is to simply let out all the idiological, religious and private perspectives that one can have. By that i mean a simple request to include gay romances should be enough to make the devs aware of your peoples desire. Like with any other request we´re dealing here in the forums. When someone request a +4 weapon for paladins it´s his right to do so same as to include periodic moods for females.... Many people (me included) just have a oppinion about that for the good or bad doesnt matter but it´s a topic very open for a direct and personal confrontation. There is just to much personal stuff thrown into these homosexuall topics imo. I hope that dont sounds negative as it is not meant to be, just a thought. thanks!
And i dont think it´s a good idea to make it (or declare it) into general issue in a gaming forum to enlighten people of either this or that side...
What i have learned about you guys/gals that it is also about your feelings and that changed my mind (what i wrote in my previous reply). But dont expect that for anyone because feelings and games are hardly something that does go well together. ...man i suck at english
@DreamingViks, yes yes... i must be a very short minded homo hater... shame on me! How could be possible to every DA2 character to be magically gay (and as you said you didn't even played the game, unlike me), impossibru!
If they're including female periods having an influence on dialogues, I won't buy BG:EE. Like, seriously, that topic was just ridiculous. Periods even don't work that way for all women. -_-
@Moomintroll: Are you serious? You have no idea how hormones work, do you? Not all women get grumpy like shit when entering their period. Some get a bit more tired, others distant, it really depends on the person. I for one don't have any overly serious mood swings at all, personally. Seriously, let's just stop this. It's immature and ruins what BG:EE stands for.
This thread is become to turn itself funny, now the talk of the moment is the woman period's... should we put toilets in the game too, cos the NPCs has their needs, maybe toilet paper should be added to the game also, maybe every character should have a 1% chance of awake with belly ache.
Or we could put in the romances a 5% chance of the man main char broaching (impotence), and that would lead to a completly new banter, where he would try to push away her romance parter in shame.
@Moomintroll I wonder when they are going to add a black character that calls all the pale characters "Massa!", shucks and jives, and talks about how he'd purely love him some fried chicken and watermelon. It's about the same level of offensive.
@Moomintroll: No offense taken. I just think things like these do not necessarily belong in games. Imagine how much time it would take for a full plate armour wearing fighter to go to the toilet. XD
@Moomintroll Thanks for the apology. Still, reducing women to their anatomy and what people think is the way women act thanks to their anatomy *is* actually rather offensive. Having a male character "think with the smaller head" to the exclusion of all else, and that male characters shouldn't be able to have a romance because if they wandered past a courtesan they would instantly take what she offered- would be equally offensive, only aimed at the male sex.
Anatomy doesn't determine how we act, for men or women, and reducing how women act to their anatomy is offensive, even if it's pretty much everywhere.
@DreamingViks, yes yes... i must be a very short minded homo hater... shame on me! How could be possible to every DA2 character to be magically gay (and as you said you didn't even played the game, unlike me), impossibru!
Now go whine somewhere else please.
Not whining. Did not call you a homo hater.
I said what your post was; Heteronormative and not though through.
I have read up on DAO2, and I can't find anything that says the characters are bisexual by magic, they simply are.
You are assuming the "normal" sexuality to be straight, this is heteronormative. You are placing your own stereotypes into a game that does not even take place on this earth.
I didn't call you short-minded either. You probably havent even questioned the way you view sexualities in this sense because we are living in a society that is currently conforming to you and your believes. You missed the point I was making since your horizons aren't broad enough on this subject.
I'm pretty sure that kamuizin was just saying how he disliked that all of the romanceable characters in DAO2 were bisexual, not trying to say that magic is what caused them to be bisexual.
And though I haven't played DAO2, I do agree that its stupid when all romanceable characters are bisexual. Its just screams taking the easy door out to appease everyone.
As far as DA2 goes, and no, I am not defending the game in general, but if you went to an alternate universe where bisexuality was the norm, and heterosexuality occurred in 10% or less of people you would be the odd man out. If someone made a game where all the romance options where straight, then people would be whining about how unrealistic it is to them on the forums.
I strongly support games making all romanceables bi. These are GAMES, that people pay MONEY for for ENTERTAINMENT. Why do people complain about how unrealistic it is to have everybody bisexual as we wield our +3 swords while riding dragons on the way to fight an army of skeletons led by a death priest?!
Why is there tons of violence? Isn't that pandering? Why are females all scantily clad with huge breasts? Isn't that pandering? Why are all characters white? Isn't that pandering? Why do many games have you as a teen that quickly becomes the Most Powerful Thing EVAR? Isn't that pandering?
Why is it pandering when it's done to make other gamers happy, but it's not pandering when it's done to make us happy? Making NPCs bi makes it easier for devs to make as many gamers as possible happy. Having frosting on my chocolate cake or cheese on my burger isn't pandering, it's making a product even more desirable for me to buy. And newsflash, Young Middle-class Heterosexual White Christian Males aren't the only people who want to play games.
If people are all concerned about games reflecting real life ratios (when, as others have pointed out, we're talking about a fantasy world here), where are all the demands that there be more blacks, more latins, more Indians, more women, more asians? Where are all the demands for more gay characters? OR, is it that YMHWCM don't have a problem with their representation DOMINATING games everywhere, COMPLETELY out of proportion, yet including any other group is "pandering". *shakes head*
"All love interests, except Sebastian, may be romanced by either gender."
By the way, Sebastian is an DLC add NPC, just to let clear that DA2 original install has all NPCs as bissexual. As @Tanthalas said, when i told magically bissexual i meant in joke an expression for poor wrote bissexual romances.
Hope to clarify now.
By the way @Shandyr, they are all bissexual yes, cos they're wrote to answer to flirts from either a male or female Main Character, It's OBVIOUS that if you're male Main Character and Isabela romance you, that she's being straight in that moment, but that's because they're wrote exactly for main char romances.
By the way, Anders make some gay flirts in Dragon Age: Origins Awakening, Isabela even not being an joinable NPC in Origins can take part in an threesome with Zevran (gay romance joinable NPC in Origins but non joinable in DA2) so those characters are PRETTY bissexual as you can see.
@Lord_Gay you're being extremist in your comment, when all characters are romanceable and all characters are bissexual, they're not Non Playable Characters anymore (aka NPC), they lost any personality or history to become a player romance sidekick.
DA2 didn't whole kill all their NPCs (thank's god for that) but they risked it, if Isabela wasn't soo interesting, the only diference between Isabela and Merril would be the sensation of a new pussy in my bed, cos that's the intent of a free romance with no restrictions, turn every NPC in a piece of Meat to satisfy Main Char needs.
I doubt the good intentions of EA(or bioware´s marceting strategists) behind the "bisexuality" of NPC´s just to show the world how liberal they are. When we all more or less agree that EA is a monetization company i believe it was for the money, for every little dollar they could catch if you will. That some employes of said companies stand for liberality i dont deny, however. It was a masquerade to the overall bad quality of a game. And for the gay people they succeded so it seems to me, but not for gamers that judged the game by its content quality w/o all the romancing;)
Obviously making every existing NPC bisexual would be silly, but making some of the new NPCs romanceable by either sex is ok, as long as it's done with taste... that's the case presently, so where is the problem?
I'm more concerned about the absence of non-romantic interaction like PS:T or MotB had. Being able to talk to your party members shouldn't require having an active romantic relationship with them, and the PC should have the ability to initiate conversation himself like with every other NPC. I've always thought this was a weak point of BG2's party dynamics and, as in several other areas, BG:EE misses the opportunity to do things differently.
Are Aerie and Jaheria the same simply cause they are straight and romanceable?
You must realise that sexuality and personality ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Being bisexual is NOT a personal trait, no sexialities are. Being attracted to both genders must not be a *thing*, so it's not strange that a person would treat people they are romantically attracted to the same way regardless of gender.
(And also, I know that he did not mean they were by magic. It's just that when I said he hadn't played DAO2 he hinted that my opnion was less worthy, as if I did not have all the facts. Also i wanted to normalize sexualities, its not *magic*)
Look, this is my problem with bisexual characters: by making all of them bisexual, it takes away from their personality. Yes, I DO consider sexuality as part of a human's personality, because it affects the way they think about other people (mostly in sexual terms) and their reasoning on certain subjects. Mind you, I don't mean this in any negative or condescending way, it's just how it is. Sexuality also has a big impact on your life, namely whom your partner will be, which hardships you will endure and so forth. So let's not just tear sexuality away from personality that easily. It affects a person's growth and his/her experiences in life too and adds to the way they are 'formed' through these experiences. It DOES have an impact, I believe, yet the degree to which is different for everybody. Now back to the bisexual characters in DA 2. I think this was poortly done, as their bisexuality takes away from their personality. Basically the companions you get are bending themselves to you, the player, and your will, they are who and what you WISH them to be, not who and what they themselves ARE. Pandering to the player's wants sometimes just breaks character diversity and integrity. Let me give an example. In DA:O, my Warden romanced Alistair. Would she have gotten mad if he turned out to be gay? No, she would have accepted it and moved on while keeping Alistair as a good friend. And THIS is where DA 2 missed the ball. It's no longer about the characters and companions themselves, but about you as the player and who you want to romance/bang. To me, this feature has made DA 2 even more flat and dull, as the characters seem to just be stereotyped and too focused on the wants of the player.
when all characters are romanceable and all characters are bissexual, they're not Non Playable Characters anymore (aka NPC),
I wasn't suggesting that all NPCs be bi. I was suggesting that all romanceable NPCs in a game, whoever they are and however many they are, be bi. Further, when i say bi, I mean from a coding perspective. If Roger the Archer in a game can be romanced, that means when you play a male PC you can romance him and when you play a female PC you can romance him. If the devs want Roger to tell you he's bi, or to tell you he's gay/straight (depending on PC gender), or even bi to one gender and gay/straight to the other gender doesn't matter to me.
If you are a hetero male player with a hetero male PC romancing a female NPC in a game, you have no idea what her orientation is. All you know, and all you should care about, is how much YOU the player enjoy the romance. You will have no idea that this NPC will also date female PCs until you go online and read about it. If hetero gamers ONLY play hetero PCs they will never know from their gameplay that the romance NPCs are bi. This means your only complaint is what other gamers are doing, which really shouldn't matter to you at all.
And let me make another point. Though I wasn't suggesting that all the NPCs be bi, what if they were? Why would that be silly? Why do people have no problem imagining dragons, beholders, daggers +1, psionics, other planes, demigods, demons, portable holes and all the zillions of other things, but a world full of bisexuals is "silly"? Is it because you want the fantasy world to reflect real-world orientation ratios? Does this mean you think the 100% hetero world that games present is equally silly? Why not complain about how unrealistic all these games are where everybody's straight? That's just as outlandish.
I get your point now @Lord_gay, but i disagree, i strongly believe in only hetero romances and also in only homo romances. Much better that each character to have a romance that fit his/her personality than just be bissexual in an attempt to please everyone and make more profit.
The great problem male gay romances, is that they all tend to be bissexual, at least, for worst that it was, Mass Effect 3 make a gay male romance only and a Gay female romance only, the way the actual romances are done today, give the appearance of an NPC that want only to have sex, no matter with whom, There's a Brothel in Copper Coronet for this in fact.
@DreamingViks, to say this in the nicest way, lemme point that your arguments are purely syllogism.
First of all you're contesting my behavior and not my opinion, that's a bit... crazy (to use an euphemism) and surely an open biased opinion against me (and not against what i say).
I strongly advice you to stop judge other people behavior or acts, that arrogant and a bit petulant, to avoid say worse adjectives.
I don't need to realise anything cos rare things in life are black and white, so avoid imperative affirmatives, at least in the way you use them. Speaking of which, while sexuality and personality are not the same thing (an obvious syllogism), they're obvious linked and one complete another, when you use a lesser truth (ex: fire can burn a tree) to justify a greater point (ex: so fire burn everything), that normally falls under a fallacy, therefore an more refined way to lie (most of the times).
Personality and sexuality are strongly linked one to the other in my opinion, and during a lifetime both continuous change and modify an individual, sexual interest is linked to hormones and personality can easly influence our hormones production.
Those absolute truths and your act of impose them on others (you must realise/you must accept/you need to see) give the impression of petulance to your arguments, just saying.
By the way, yes i diminished your argument when you said that you didn't played the game, cos... how can you judge something that you didn't lived, or at least saw, you just heard that somewhere or read it in some place. I played the game and i didn't pursued any homossexual romance (what i would only do with a female main char, yes sexist but that's my choice so whatever), but i saw the start flirts of each male bi romance, and they're pretty hollow (all Anders banters are hollow, in fact).
The main problem for me is this worry about equalism, the romances doesn't need to be equalised, we don't need a romance for each race, neither the exactly sum of male and female romances or straight or bi romances. The root of the problem is the feeling of prejudice that normally compels us to do that, straight and bi equalism in reason of real life conflicts and race equalism after the bissexual issue was over.
I'm happy with random romances, the greatest issue in BG II was the fact they close the romance in 3 elf babes, only that. While i like Jaheira (besides her boss issue) Mazzy and Nalia have both better motivation for romance, but that's not possible anymore.
In BG there are 3 NPCs added, one of them is a half orc (that probally date a half orc female, and Viconia date half orc males if i'm not wrong). Maybe in BG2 a male halfling enter on the equation for female gnomes and halflings, and that's pretty much solve the romance problems for the equalists, what means that we don't have to grab the world with the arms in BG, there's BG II to fill the holes for anyone that is bothered by the lack of equality.
Comments
And i dont think it´s a good idea to make it (or declare it) into general issue in a gaming forum to enlighten people of either this or that side...
What i have learned about you guys/gals that it is also about your feelings and that changed my mind (what i wrote in my previous reply). But dont expect that for anyone because feelings and games are hardly something that does go well together. ...man i suck at english
Now go whine somewhere else please.
Or we could put in the romances a 5% chance of the man main char broaching (impotence), and that would lead to a completly new banter, where he would try to push away her romance parter in shame.
Anatomy doesn't determine how we act, for men or women, and reducing how women act to their anatomy is offensive, even if it's pretty much everywhere.
Did not call you a homo hater.
I said what your post was; Heteronormative and not though through.
I have read up on DAO2, and I can't find anything that says the characters are bisexual by magic, they simply are.
You are assuming the "normal" sexuality to be straight, this is heteronormative. You are placing your own stereotypes into a game that does not even take place on this earth.
I didn't call you short-minded either. You probably havent even questioned the way you view sexualities in this sense because we are living in a society that is currently conforming to you and your believes. You missed the point I was making since your horizons aren't broad enough on this subject.
I'm pretty sure that kamuizin was just saying how he disliked that all of the romanceable characters in DAO2 were bisexual, not trying to say that magic is what caused them to be bisexual.
And though I haven't played DAO2, I do agree that its stupid when all romanceable characters are bisexual. Its just screams taking the easy door out to appease everyone.
Why is there tons of violence? Isn't that pandering?
Why are females all scantily clad with huge breasts? Isn't that pandering?
Why are all characters white? Isn't that pandering?
Why do many games have you as a teen that quickly becomes the Most Powerful Thing EVAR? Isn't that pandering?
Why is it pandering when it's done to make other gamers happy, but it's not pandering when it's done to make us happy? Making NPCs bi makes it easier for devs to make as many gamers as possible happy. Having frosting on my chocolate cake or cheese on my burger isn't pandering, it's making a product even more desirable for me to buy. And newsflash, Young Middle-class Heterosexual White Christian Males aren't the only people who want to play games.
If people are all concerned about games reflecting real life ratios (when, as others have pointed out, we're talking about a fantasy world here), where are all the demands that there be more blacks, more latins, more Indians, more women, more asians? Where are all the demands for more gay characters? OR, is it that YMHWCM don't have a problem with their representation DOMINATING games everywhere, COMPLETELY out of proportion, yet including any other group is "pandering". *shakes head*
Just read the 2° Note where it says:
"All love interests, except Sebastian, may be romanced by either gender."
By the way, Sebastian is an DLC add NPC, just to let clear that DA2 original install has all NPCs as bissexual. As @Tanthalas said, when i told magically bissexual i meant in joke an expression for poor wrote bissexual romances.
Hope to clarify now.
By the way @Shandyr, they are all bissexual yes, cos they're wrote to answer to flirts from either a male or female Main Character, It's OBVIOUS that if you're male Main Character and Isabela romance you, that she's being straight in that moment, but that's because they're wrote exactly for main char romances.
By the way, Anders make some gay flirts in Dragon Age: Origins Awakening, Isabela even not being an joinable NPC in Origins can take part in an threesome with Zevran (gay romance joinable NPC in Origins but non joinable in DA2) so those characters are PRETTY bissexual as you can see.
@Lord_Gay you're being extremist in your comment, when all characters are romanceable and all characters are bissexual, they're not Non Playable Characters anymore (aka NPC), they lost any personality or history to become a player romance sidekick.
DA2 didn't whole kill all their NPCs (thank's god for that) but they risked it, if Isabela wasn't soo interesting, the only diference between Isabela and Merril would be the sensation of a new pussy in my bed, cos that's the intent of a free romance with no restrictions, turn every NPC in a piece of Meat to satisfy Main Char needs.
And for the gay people they succeded so it seems to me, but not for gamers that judged the game by its content quality w/o all the romancing;)
I'm more concerned about the absence of non-romantic interaction like PS:T or MotB had. Being able to talk to your party members shouldn't require having an active romantic relationship with them, and the PC should have the ability to initiate conversation himself like with every other NPC. I've always thought this was a weak point of BG2's party dynamics and, as in several other areas, BG:EE misses the opportunity to do things differently.
You are conservative and normative.
Are Aerie and Jaheria the same simply cause they are straight and romanceable?
You must realise that sexuality and personality ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Being bisexual is NOT a personal trait, no sexialities are. Being attracted to both genders must not be a *thing*, so it's not strange that a person would treat people they are romantically attracted to the same way regardless of gender.
(And also, I know that he did not mean they were by magic. It's just that when I said he hadn't played DAO2 he hinted that my opnion was less worthy, as if I did not have all the facts. Also i wanted to normalize sexualities, its not *magic*)
If you are a hetero male player with a hetero male PC romancing a female NPC in a game, you have no idea what her orientation is. All you know, and all you should care about, is how much YOU the player enjoy the romance. You will have no idea that this NPC will also date female PCs until you go online and read about it. If hetero gamers ONLY play hetero PCs they will never know from their gameplay that the romance NPCs are bi. This means your only complaint is what other gamers are doing, which really shouldn't matter to you at all.
And let me make another point. Though I wasn't suggesting that all the NPCs be bi, what if they were? Why would that be silly? Why do people have no problem imagining dragons, beholders, daggers +1, psionics, other planes, demigods, demons, portable holes and all the zillions of other things, but a world full of bisexuals is "silly"? Is it because you want the fantasy world to reflect real-world orientation ratios? Does this mean you think the 100% hetero world that games present is equally silly? Why not complain about how unrealistic all these games are where everybody's straight? That's just as outlandish.
The great problem male gay romances, is that they all tend to be bissexual, at least, for worst that it was, Mass Effect 3 make a gay male romance only and a Gay female romance only, the way the actual romances are done today, give the appearance of an NPC that want only to have sex, no matter with whom, There's a Brothel in Copper Coronet for this in fact.
@DreamingViks, to say this in the nicest way, lemme point that your arguments are purely syllogism.
First of all you're contesting my behavior and not my opinion, that's a bit... crazy (to use an euphemism) and surely an open biased opinion against me (and not against what i say).
I strongly advice you to stop judge other people behavior or acts, that arrogant and a bit petulant, to avoid say worse adjectives.
I don't need to realise anything cos rare things in life are black and white, so avoid imperative affirmatives, at least in the way you use them. Speaking of which, while sexuality and personality are not the same thing (an obvious syllogism), they're obvious linked and one complete another, when you use a lesser truth (ex: fire can burn a tree) to justify a greater point (ex: so fire burn everything), that normally falls under a fallacy, therefore an more refined way to lie (most of the times).
Personality and sexuality are strongly linked one to the other in my opinion, and during a lifetime both continuous change and modify an individual, sexual interest is linked to hormones and personality can easly influence our hormones production.
Those absolute truths and your act of impose them on others (you must realise/you must accept/you need to see) give the impression of petulance to your arguments, just saying.
By the way, yes i diminished your argument when you said that you didn't played the game, cos... how can you judge something that you didn't lived, or at least saw, you just heard that somewhere or read it in some place. I played the game and i didn't pursued any homossexual romance (what i would only do with a female main char, yes sexist but that's my choice so whatever), but i saw the start flirts of each male bi romance, and they're pretty hollow (all Anders banters are hollow, in fact).
I'm happy with random romances, the greatest issue in BG II was the fact they close the romance in 3 elf babes, only that. While i like Jaheira (besides her boss issue) Mazzy and Nalia have both better motivation for romance, but that's not possible anymore.
In BG there are 3 NPCs added, one of them is a half orc (that probally date a half orc female, and Viconia date half orc males if i'm not wrong). Maybe in BG2 a male halfling enter on the equation for female gnomes and halflings, and that's pretty much solve the romance problems for the equalists, what means that we don't have to grab the world with the arms in BG, there's BG II to fill the holes for anyone that is bothered by the lack of equality.