It'll be interesting to see what aspects/mechanics from BG2 makes it in (if any). I'm expecting most won't though. But you never know.
Features
- Non-voiced NPCs: One of the great things about Baldur's Gate is the sheer volume of people you can talk to. Most of these are handled by having a series of different random non-voiced lines. But I've found that games like Pillars never really captured this to the same degree. Mostly because the cities it featured were smaller and very refined (which I'm expecting from BG3 but I guess we'll see).
- Higher level abilities: 5th edition doesn't have these. I think they were introduced into BG2 ToB because of the lack of anything you can really get at these higher levels especially for non-casters. If they plan on having accelerated leveling however, is this something that might come up near the end game? (NWN and NWN2 after all have them).
- Quest Adding Moddability: Alright so this wasn't an intended feature of the first two games. But thanks to a lot of work from a lot of hard working people we can now do stuff like add new quests to the game. I admit I could be wrong about this, but I haven't seen anything for DOS2 so far beyond standalone adventure mods. So no quest adding to the base game.
- Fixed Loot (at least for magic items, potions, etc)
Mechanics
Combat
- Saving during combat: You can't do this in the BG series, but you can in DOS2.
- Area transition ambushes
- Inventory pause in combat. If they go with a turn based system I'm assuming this will be the case (I think you can view your inventory in DOS2 without using action points but to take any actions might take up AP). Back in ye old days of BG1 you didn't have this (it was introduced in BG2).
Social
- Reputation: Not the most loved system in BG I'll admit, but it did provide a means of players having an idea of how others currently viewed them. DOS2 does this I think more on a per person basis (while giving passive bonuses for people with skill in persuasion).
- Alignment: 5E takes a step back from this. But it'll be interesting to see if they decide this should have any bearing on your access to quests or how others treat you (you get a bit of this in BG2 with the quest to poison the druid grove - which only evil CHARNAMES get). Games like NWN and NWN2 just had your actions affect this so that is another option.
- Racial Interactions: Some of the races are designed around you having a harder time socially in the more traditional forgotten realms settings (like Baldur's Gate). Tieflings or Drow for instance. Baldur's Gate largely avoids this by not letting you play these sorts of races (other than the Half-Orc).
- Gods: In previous editions gods were more important for clerics. But now they are basically just something you can worship. But it does beg the question if a change in your alignment (like how NWN2 and I think NWN handles things) change who you can still worship? Like in NWN2 if you went too evil or good eventually you would have to change whatever god you selected for worship at the start.
Other
- Resting: DOS2 controls this by limiting the places where you can find sleep/access to bed rolls. BG on the otherhand basically says "have at it" most of the time (except in towns and a few other areas). With the only consequence being you might get ambushed. With short rests being extremely important for classes (cough...warlock...cough) this is going to be a big balance issue.
- Trap setting without having to have the materials
- Threshold system for opening locks, detecting, and disarming traps. There is a bit of luck allowed in BG, but most locks/traps have a fixed amount you have to aim for. If your skill isn't anywhere near at being good enough you can't just keep trying your luck and succeeding. 5E changes this so that anyone with thieving tools can try to disarm a trap or open a lock. But you can also have proficiency or expertise in thief tools to give yourself a bit of a boost.
- Trap detection. Arguably in PnP you need to first perceive a trap (perception), then investigate it, then actually disarm it.
- Strength based door/lock bashing. In DOS2 you can't do this on all doors/chests. At least from what I've found. Whereas Baldur's Gate gives you a threshold for this similar to opening locks.
- Non-voiced NPCs: One of the great things about Baldur's Gate is the sheer volume of people you can talk to. Most of these are handled by having a series of different random non-voiced lines. But I've found that games like Pillars never really captured this to the same degree. Mostly because the cities it featured were smaller and very refined (which I'm expecting from BG3 but I guess we'll see).
Obsidian's Josh Sawyer recently did a lengthy "postmortem" video on what worked and didn't work on PoE2. One of the very first things he says is that Larian, with D:OS2, has now set an industry standard of a fully voiced game for RPGs. He believes this is not a good thing because full VO is extremely expensive and smaller/indie studios cannot afford it. But gamers will be expecting it and demanding it in every RPG from now on because of D:OS2. He then goes on to say once D:OS2 became fully voiced, Obsidian higher ups insisted on more VO for PoE2 as well, which he strongly opposed because he felt it was a waste of the limited resources he was working with, but was overruled.
Yea voice acting is constraining. It's expensive and it becomes an issue if you need to change any text. You also have to be mindful of how easy phrases and words are for the voice actors.
Full VO for small projects is nothing new, if you look at Japanese VN/RPG hybrid games. But it has a very serious impact on moddability, as you'd no longer be able to add new text.
elminster , resting in P:K is far better than on BG. I think that copy the resting in P:K is better than on D:OS. And note that since there are no spell slots on D:OS, they can afford to make it.
About fully voice acting, i strongly agree with kanisatha. And saw people complaining about P:K by not being 100% fully voice acted. You can't expect it from an small russian studio. For then to translate the game to english then pay in US$ to be voice acted will probably kills his project.
Not mentioning, since voice acting is expensive, you can't have in depth dialog choices and voice dialogs. You can have an game with 500.000 lines of dialog, that depends on player alignment, player choices, reputation and other metrics, but if you need to voice act this 500.000 lines, it will kill most of dialog choices. The same resources that can bring voice acting, can bring new classes, new quests, new assets, new spells, new equipment(...)
Sven explained that Baldur’s Gate was one of the game which really allowed the player to feel creative. Making their character and finding companions along the way, not to mention team dynamics and skills. There were a lot of systems which really opened for fans to play how they wanted. That is a huge part of that the team at Larian wants to capture from the original. Game play was paramount, he wants to get it right.
In working with Forgotten Realms lore, Mike was quick to point out all the easter eggs on the trailer for fans of the game. Even spotting the Blushing Mermaid in the background. Mike really wants anyone to pick up the game and play, something that D&D is pushing towards more and more. They work in layers though with loads of content for older fans to enjoy. It is accessible to anyone, but the hardcore fans will really be rewarded in the game.
Combat – We Tried
Sadly, the guys could not give away much on the combat systems in the game yet, however they did share some philosophy around the subject. Sven wants it to feel like authentic D&D. Your class choice will be important, and they want you to really get the most out of what you play. There will be ways to do things like the table top like dexterity checks and all in the game. Those systems are being built in right now.
Both said they do not want to overwhelm the player with loads of combat at first. Easing into the game and getting used to multiple encounters as well as traps and other ways to adventure in the game. It is all about creativity with your party. Playing the role is important. Also, stories will crop up in the game about your party members which was inherent in all the Baldur’s Gate titles, they do not want to lose such a strong part of the game’s past, so look for a lot of these within this installment.
Sven made a point to talk about the fact that a ton of content in being built into the game outside of combat as well. There are a lot of new elements coming to this installment which impact the RPG beyond just a fight. Their main goal is to translate all the styles from the Player's Handbook and really flush them out within Baldur’s Gate 3.
Once again nothing new at all. Just the same ol' same ol': gushing, fawning reporter saying Larian is awesome; the D:OS games are awesome; everything is awesome; yay Larian; we trust Larian; you MUST trust them too and HAVE TO like their game.
I am beginning to find these "interviews" rather patronizing tbh.
^Is just an meme, but i was neutral, after some statements, with negative expediencies. I don't know why people are with good expediencies about bg3... And no, is not just statements regardless leveling, missing, spell slots, resting, etc. Is statements regardless be available on google stadia ( https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+stadia+baldur's+gate+3&atb=v109-6_h&ia=web )
Controllers are far more limited than M&K. The good RPG's designed to be played on controllers are few and far between. The majority of console RPG's aren't Kotor or Dark Souls. Lets be honest. I still wanna see what beamdog will gonna do with console releases of cRPG's. MAinly NWN1. Imagine playing HotU with an Wizard and trying to select spells...
Instead of full VO, they should do voice greeting sets for NPCs (ala BG1 and BG2). That is the Baldur's Gate way, and it's just better—it's just as ambitious, the player doesn't need to turn their brain off while NPCs talk endlessly at them, and it's simply more fun—in my humble (and correct) opinion.
Not to mention the developers wouldn't be contributing to a restrictive industry standard that ultimately hurts RPGs.
Sorry, I feel like this is gonna suck rocks. I hope they prove me wrong. The charm of Baldur's Gate is the Infinity Engine. I know, I know. GET OFF MY LAWN. One of the initial interviews claimed the original Baldur's Gate was 3E (not 2E). Oops. We will see.
I do think full VO is a problem for these titles. I think it works for action-oriented games like the newer Fallouts or Witcher, since it'd be more jarring to read text in those games. But I think it forces developers into a corner with the story writing. They have to get all the dialogue done early, have to invest huge time in dialogue and can't really make alterations without significant investment.
I think the greeting line for non-essential NPC's, as Adul said, makes the most sense. It's a shame, but I do think Josh Sawyer is right. For certain games, the expectation is now full VO at this stage.
With all the information that is made available, I gave up on Baldur's Gate 3 at this point. I think both Larian and Wotc focus too much on current game trends, and don't see them being faithful to what made the series great, based on the information they reveal in the interviews.
I wish that it's just a communications issue from Larian which is not representing what they are actually doing, just like the unnecessary statements Beamdog had made during the production of SOD. Otherwise, I will pass on BG3 and act as if it never happened, and keep playing BG EE saga only.
Btw, I was actually very open minded and excited about BG3 being done by Larian, but that unfortunately changed as I got more and more information.
@subtledoctor Do you remember Dragon Age games? The camera moves closer there when you're in a conversation or a scene. And it's from a different angle when you play and fight.
"Making hair look photorealistic is NOT something I'm looking for in a Baldur's Gate game." Come on, is making the graphics better a sin against the legacy of Baldur's Gate?
That point i agree. Making the graphics better only makes the gameplay overall better.
Anyway, an Baldur's Gate 1/2 remake on CryEngine with modern graphics would be epic(unfortnetly looks like bg3 will be insanely different than bg2/1). IMO people play BG 1/2 despite the dated graphics not because the dated graphics. BG is so magnificent game that people choose to play BG over any AAA good locking game.
PS : I still think that BG3 will be an SCL clone but don't think that if NWN1 for eg had photorealistic graphics, i will complain. In fact, i would pay US$200,00 to play NWN1 with photorealistic graphics, if i can use PRC and other modds with tons of custom made modules.
Comments
We welcome everyone to discuss BGIII on this forum.
Features
- Non-voiced NPCs: One of the great things about Baldur's Gate is the sheer volume of people you can talk to. Most of these are handled by having a series of different random non-voiced lines. But I've found that games like Pillars never really captured this to the same degree. Mostly because the cities it featured were smaller and very refined (which I'm expecting from BG3 but I guess we'll see).
- Higher level abilities: 5th edition doesn't have these. I think they were introduced into BG2 ToB because of the lack of anything you can really get at these higher levels especially for non-casters. If they plan on having accelerated leveling however, is this something that might come up near the end game? (NWN and NWN2 after all have them).
- Quest Adding Moddability: Alright so this wasn't an intended feature of the first two games. But thanks to a lot of work from a lot of hard working people we can now do stuff like add new quests to the game. I admit I could be wrong about this, but I haven't seen anything for DOS2 so far beyond standalone adventure mods. So no quest adding to the base game.
- Fixed Loot (at least for magic items, potions, etc)
Mechanics
Combat
- Saving during combat: You can't do this in the BG series, but you can in DOS2.
- Area transition ambushes
- Inventory pause in combat. If they go with a turn based system I'm assuming this will be the case (I think you can view your inventory in DOS2 without using action points but to take any actions might take up AP). Back in ye old days of BG1 you didn't have this (it was introduced in BG2).
Social
- Reputation: Not the most loved system in BG I'll admit, but it did provide a means of players having an idea of how others currently viewed them. DOS2 does this I think more on a per person basis (while giving passive bonuses for people with skill in persuasion).
- Alignment: 5E takes a step back from this. But it'll be interesting to see if they decide this should have any bearing on your access to quests or how others treat you (you get a bit of this in BG2 with the quest to poison the druid grove - which only evil CHARNAMES get). Games like NWN and NWN2 just had your actions affect this so that is another option.
- Racial Interactions: Some of the races are designed around you having a harder time socially in the more traditional forgotten realms settings (like Baldur's Gate). Tieflings or Drow for instance. Baldur's Gate largely avoids this by not letting you play these sorts of races (other than the Half-Orc).
- Gods: In previous editions gods were more important for clerics. But now they are basically just something you can worship. But it does beg the question if a change in your alignment (like how NWN2 and I think NWN handles things) change who you can still worship? Like in NWN2 if you went too evil or good eventually you would have to change whatever god you selected for worship at the start.
Other
- Resting: DOS2 controls this by limiting the places where you can find sleep/access to bed rolls. BG on the otherhand basically says "have at it" most of the time (except in towns and a few other areas). With the only consequence being you might get ambushed. With short rests being extremely important for classes (cough...warlock...cough) this is going to be a big balance issue.
- Trap setting without having to have the materials
- Threshold system for opening locks, detecting, and disarming traps. There is a bit of luck allowed in BG, but most locks/traps have a fixed amount you have to aim for. If your skill isn't anywhere near at being good enough you can't just keep trying your luck and succeeding. 5E changes this so that anyone with thieving tools can try to disarm a trap or open a lock. But you can also have proficiency or expertise in thief tools to give yourself a bit of a boost.
- Trap detection. Arguably in PnP you need to first perceive a trap (perception), then investigate it, then actually disarm it.
- Strength based door/lock bashing. In DOS2 you can't do this on all doors/chests. At least from what I've found. Whereas Baldur's Gate gives you a threshold for this similar to opening locks.
Obsidian's Josh Sawyer recently did a lengthy "postmortem" video on what worked and didn't work on PoE2. One of the very first things he says is that Larian, with D:OS2, has now set an industry standard of a fully voiced game for RPGs. He believes this is not a good thing because full VO is extremely expensive and smaller/indie studios cannot afford it. But gamers will be expecting it and demanding it in every RPG from now on because of D:OS2. He then goes on to say once D:OS2 became fully voiced, Obsidian higher ups insisted on more VO for PoE2 as well, which he strongly opposed because he felt it was a waste of the limited resources he was working with, but was overruled.
About fully voice acting, i strongly agree with kanisatha. And saw people complaining about P:K by not being 100% fully voice acted. You can't expect it from an small russian studio. For then to translate the game to english then pay in US$ to be voice acted will probably kills his project.
Not mentioning, since voice acting is expensive, you can't have in depth dialog choices and voice dialogs. You can have an game with 500.000 lines of dialog, that depends on player alignment, player choices, reputation and other metrics, but if you need to voice act this 500.000 lines, it will kill most of dialog choices. The same resources that can bring voice acting, can bring new classes, new quests, new assets, new spells, new equipment(...)
I adore certain voices from D:OS2, eg. Sebille and Red Prince (both of them are voiced by the actors of Female and Male British Inquisitors - DA3).
Usually, I don't have problems if the games are fully voiced. But yes, this is an industry standard now.
https://www.mmorpg.com/baldurs-gate-iii/interviews/baldurs-gate-3-meeting-expectations-1000013727
Creativity in Role Playing
Sven explained that Baldur’s Gate was one of the game which really allowed the player to feel creative. Making their character and finding companions along the way, not to mention team dynamics and skills. There were a lot of systems which really opened for fans to play how they wanted. That is a huge part of that the team at Larian wants to capture from the original. Game play was paramount, he wants to get it right.
In working with Forgotten Realms lore, Mike was quick to point out all the easter eggs on the trailer for fans of the game. Even spotting the Blushing Mermaid in the background. Mike really wants anyone to pick up the game and play, something that D&D is pushing towards more and more. They work in layers though with loads of content for older fans to enjoy. It is accessible to anyone, but the hardcore fans will really be rewarded in the game.
Combat – We Tried
Sadly, the guys could not give away much on the combat systems in the game yet, however they did share some philosophy around the subject. Sven wants it to feel like authentic D&D. Your class choice will be important, and they want you to really get the most out of what you play. There will be ways to do things like the table top like dexterity checks and all in the game. Those systems are being built in right now.
Both said they do not want to overwhelm the player with loads of combat at first. Easing into the game and getting used to multiple encounters as well as traps and other ways to adventure in the game. It is all about creativity with your party. Playing the role is important. Also, stories will crop up in the game about your party members which was inherent in all the Baldur’s Gate titles, they do not want to lose such a strong part of the game’s past, so look for a lot of these within this installment.
Sven made a point to talk about the fact that a ton of content in being built into the game outside of combat as well. There are a lot of new elements coming to this installment which impact the RPG beyond just a fight. Their main goal is to translate all the styles from the Player's Handbook and really flush them out within Baldur’s Gate 3.
I am beginning to find these "interviews" rather patronizing tbh.
LOL. If I'm on the opposite side of Vader, I'm VERY content with where I'm standing.
Controllers are far more limited than M&K. The good RPG's designed to be played on controllers are few and far between. The majority of console RPG's aren't Kotor or Dark Souls. Lets be honest. I still wanna see what beamdog will gonna do with console releases of cRPG's. MAinly NWN1. Imagine playing HotU with an Wizard and trying to select spells...
Not to mention the developers wouldn't be contributing to a restrictive industry standard that ultimately hurts RPGs.
I think the greeting line for non-essential NPC's, as Adul said, makes the most sense. It's a shame, but I do think Josh Sawyer is right. For certain games, the expectation is now full VO at this stage.
I wish that it's just a communications issue from Larian which is not representing what they are actually doing, just like the unnecessary statements Beamdog had made during the production of SOD. Otherwise, I will pass on BG3 and act as if it never happened, and keep playing BG EE saga only.
Btw, I was actually very open minded and excited about BG3 being done by Larian, but that unfortunately changed as I got more and more information.
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/xzBEEE
That character model would make a good Jaheira. It's the way I've always envisioned her if she were played by a live actress.
"Making hair look photorealistic is NOT something I'm looking for in a Baldur's Gate game." Come on, is making the graphics better a sin against the legacy of Baldur's Gate?
Anyway, an Baldur's Gate 1/2 remake on CryEngine with modern graphics would be epic(unfortnetly looks like bg3 will be insanely different than bg2/1). IMO people play BG 1/2 despite the dated graphics not because the dated graphics. BG is so magnificent game that people choose to play BG over any AAA good locking game.
PS : I still think that BG3 will be an SCL clone but don't think that if NWN1 for eg had photorealistic graphics, i will complain. In fact, i would pay US$200,00 to play NWN1 with photorealistic graphics, if i can use PRC and other modds with tons of custom made modules.
Here's an even better question for you; Do you have to voice that opinion and preference whenever someone else post something they think is positive?
Jeebus Forking Cripes.